THE ESTIMATES.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XXV, Issue 9090, 26 June 1888, Page 5

THE ESTIMATES.

PUBLIC MEETING.

IMPORTANT RESOLUTIONS.

FURTHER REDUCTION RECOMMENDED.

THE EDUCATION SYSTEM. A niBLiC meeting, convened by the Mayor of Auckland at the request of the membors of the Auckland Financial Reform Association and several other citizens, was held yesterday ovening at the Lorne-streot Hall, for the purpose of discussing the advisability of reducing the Government estimates for the current year. The Mayor (Mr. Devore) presided, and there were present on the platform : Messrs. G. M. Reed, J. Newman, J. H. Upton, H. Green, Theo. Cooper, C. D. Whitcombe, G. Pcacocke, E. W. Burton, VV. Duncan, A. Boardman, Dr. Bakowell, Messrs. J. M. McLachlan, T. B. Hill, James Maxwell, J. N. Pegler, R, J. Duncan, W. Crowthcr, and others. There was a crowded attendance in the body of the hall. The Mayor, in opening the proceeding?, said he considered that any resolution passed by such a meeting would carry very great weight with the members of the House—(applause)—some of whom had sent telegrams expressing their sympathy with the object for which they had assembled that evening. Ho regretted the necessity for tho meeting. His Worship read the following telegram, which had been received from Sir George Grey ;— " The Association may rely upon my exerting myself to aid those with whom I am working in bringing about reductions in the Estimates." (Applause. ) Mr. A. Boardman moved, "That while duly appreciating the reduction of Government expenditure already made, this meeting is of opinion that a very much larger reduction, say, £200,000, can and ought to be made, and so avoid the necessity for any large increased taxation." (Applause.) He had taken an active part in the inception of the Financial Reform Association, and a statement he then drew up had been published in the Herald. There was at that time a "roar" for retrenchment, and the Government then sot to work, and reduced the public expenditure by £233,000. Although the Government had done so much in so short a time, and under such great difficulties, he contended that they ought not now to rest; they must go on in tho path of retrenchment upon which they had entered. No montion was made ot tho estimated reduction which might bo made in defence and other items. (Applause.) The reduction of the number of members of our present Parliament to fifty would be a vast gain to the country. (Cheers.) In his letters to the Herald he had stated that the people of New Zealand paid £730,000 more than the people of Now South Wales, and he contended that there was nothing special in the circumstances of this colony to justify this. Mr. Boardman referred to figures in the Financial Statement, and maintained that it wa-s astounding that the sum of £3,953,000 should be snatched from the people by taxation. Every tax taken from tho people decreased their wages, and when it was remembered that the large sum he had named, nearly £•1,000,000, had to -bo paid by only ft portion of the community—thoso who were wage-earners —they could not wonder thnt there were depressed times. (Applause.) The speaker urged that the people should bestir themselves on this question, and as the last "roar" for retrenchment had reduced public expenditure to some oxtent, another " roar " should be raised, so that a further large slico might be taken off. The speaker referred at some length to the question of the payment of pensions to public officials, which he denounced as monstrous, and leading to the greatest extravagance and corruption. He suggested that the Pensions Act should be amended by raising the age to 65, whilst as the pensions were raised in this colony they should be spent hero. (Applause.) Tho comparative costs of the mail services were referred to, and Mr. Boardman contended that if the subsidy to ikz direct mail service were no more than that given to the San Francisco service, a saving of £10,700 would bo effected. Ho claimed that the retention of the railways was more of a fancy than anything else, whilst the sale of the railways would be beneficial to the colony. (Cheers, and "No, no.") They all admitted that the railways wero inefficiently managed, and that common carriers could beo.t them nny day. By the sale of the railways £36-1,000 per year would be saved, and any company would manage them a great deal better than they were managed now. (Cheers.) In his opinion it would bo a sinful waste to construct the North Island Trunk Railway, the Otago Trunk line, or the Midland Railway, when there was no earthly prospect of an adequate return being made for that expenditure. (Cheers.) Mr. S. Vaile seconded the motion. Their thanks were duo to the Government for the Tariff Bill, though it would not produce the revenue they expected. (Hear, hear.) The Government had also done well in introducing the Representation Bill. Ho did not know on what basis the Estimates wero framed, and under ordinary circumstances they would not be realised. It was a right and proper thing to raise the school ago to six years—(applause, and "No, no") — because from a careful investigation he was convinced that a child's brain was not prepared for school work until it was six years old. The want of any religious instruction under the present system was a great evil, whilst, again, tho system completely stamped out private tuition. He would give a capitation fee to all private schools whose instruction was un to the standard of the public schools, and by that process thoy would save a large amount of money. They wanted an absolute change of policy, and an absolute change of themselves. The Government was a reflex of tho people. (Cheers.) Let a man make a special study of any branch of the public service, and ho came to be regarded as a downright lunatic, or something very close to it. (Laughter.) They should not send men into Parliament who were obliged to follow tho dictates of their bankers. It struck him that they had never had in the Government of New Zealand a man wifch an original idea in his head — (laughter) — and the department which suffered most was tho Public Works Department. Ho ventured to say that the gontloman now at tho head of the department was no more able for the position than ho was to grasp the moon. (Hear, hear.) The Railway Board now proposed would cost tho colony £10,000 per annum. He challenged Mr. Boardman to meet him on a public platform and discuss tho subject of the sale of tho railways. (Cheers.) That cry was being being got up on behalf of certain institutions.

Mr. G. M. Reed supported the resolution, and ho sincerely trusted that the members of tho House wonld act as directed by that meeting. His idea was that a meeting so large and influential should give moro specific instructions as to the direction in which retrenchment should be effected—(cheers) —and he would propose a motion on this subject at a later stage of tho proceedings. Dr. Bakewkll moved an amendment, " That the words ' and so avoid the neoessity for any large increaso of taxation' be struck out.) II a reduction was raado at onco to the extent of the large sum proposed, a grievous wrong woukf be done to the Civil Servants. (Dissent.) Such drastic retrenchment could net be effected at once; for, if it wae, a great number of Civil Servants would be dismissed without due notice. Every little town had its post and telegraph office, and all other conveniences: they must change this before effective reduction could bo made. (Cheers.) The speaker again contended that the proposals of the meeting would injuriously affect the Civil Servants. (Disorder.) He had not been in any way prompted or requested by any public servant to move in the matter.

Mr. Jas. Maxwell, who said he had come from the country that day to be present at the meeting, thought thab there would bo a financial crash in the colony in a very ehort time, for ho considered that the colony was bankrupt. (No, no.) Mr. Maxwell went on to make a rambling speech when he was frequently called to order by the Mayor. Ho went on to stato (amid much laughter) that ho stood there that night ae the apostle and advocate of Repudiation, and ho moved, "Thab in tho

opinion of this meeting, as the colony is unable to pay the immense amount of interest it has to pay, it is desirable that a re-arrangement should be made with the public creditor." (Laughter.) The Mayor said he would decline to put this motion, which was an insult to the • )tnmunifcy. (Cheers.) Mr. Maxwell protested against his motion not being pub, because it did not chime in with the ideas of the Mayor. (Cheers.) He was in favour of modified repudiation, and instanced Mr. Goschen's proposals at home. There was no money in the country ; the settlers in the country had no money ; and he claimed that, as surely a3 the sun rises, the colony of New Zealand would have to come to some arrangement with the public creditor before long. Mr. Boardman's motion was put, and unanimously agreed to. The Mayor declined to put Mr. Maxwell's resolution, which was not seconded.

Mr. Thro. Cooper moved. " That in order to facilitate economical administration the present cumbrous system of government should be modified to suit the taxpaying power of the country." He was glad that the remarks just made were uttered by a stranger to Auckland, for however frequently they had to put their hands in their pockets, he was convinced that no English community would seriously 'consider tho cry for repudiation. (Cheers.) Their present difficulties dated from the time when they departed from the constitution so wisely framed by Sir George Grey. (Cheers.) Until they got a simpler form of government the present depression and log-rolling would continue. A large sum of money was wasted in useless legislation, and by local management of public affairs vast sums would be saved. Public works should be subject to the supervision of the people. Mr. Cooper referred to the work done by tho House of Represensatives, and urged that the number of members should be reduced, whilst the payment of the members of the Legislative Council should bo abolished. (Cheers.) Whilst the old provincial system, with all its abuses, was in existence, there was not the gross corruption that had existed since the abolition of the provinces, and a far more intelligent knowledge of public affairs was shown than had been evidenced since the year 1874. (Cheers.) Ho contended that they should not touch the education vote until everything else had been done to reduce expenditure. (Cheers.) Mr. E. VV. Burton supported the motion. They were suffering from over-centralisa-tion, and reduction in expenditure was urgently needed. Mr. J. N. Pegler also addressed the meeting. The motion was unanimously adopted. Mr. G. M. Reed said they were all agreed that retrenchment was necessary, but they could not haveretrenclnnentunless they were prepared to forego some of the advantages which they now enjoyed, and therefore, lio was of opinion that when suggesting further reduction, they should at the same time oxpress themselves as willing to forego some of these advantages. A good many people were afraid to touch the education vote; ho was not in the slightest degree afraid. He did not wish to oppose education, and if lie thought that the resolution would in any degree injure the cause, he would not submit it ; but the present expenditure under this head was altogether beyond what this colony required to pay or was able to pay. (Loud cheers and dissent.) He agreed that they should endeavour to reduce the expenditure upon every point: but he sincerely believed that this colony was coming to the position when retrenchment to a much larger sum would have to bo made. His proposal, if carried into ofiect, would result in a reduction of £130,000, and he bolieved that it would not in the slightest degree injure the system. It wan an injury to send children under seven years of age to school, to strain their minds And young brains. (Cheers.) By raising the school age they would save £7- r >,ooo a year. Ho was further of opinion that frco education should end at the fourth standard. To the working classes it was of very little consequence whether education beyond the fourth standard should be free, as it was at that standard that their children left school. He moved, "That, in consideration of the financial position of the colony, and the necessity for further retrenchment, the school ago be raised to seven years, and free education should end with the fourth standard." (Cheers.) Wero these resolutions carried into effect, they would save, in the first instance, £75,000, and in the second £5fi,000, or a total of £130,000. (Cheers.)

Mr. G. Peacockk seconded the motion. The time at school of children between the ages of five and seven years was wasted. The taxation was overburdening, and the horse was wobbling about, but if he foil under it, what would become of their system of education ? It would then have to bo given up entirely. The reductions proposed in tho motion would not injure the system in one iota. (Cheers.) Mr. W. J. Speight considered that Mr. Reed should have given the public due notice of his motion, for an important proposal of this kind could not be properly discussed at this stage. Ho had fought hard for the system, and he would not see it ruthlessly sacrificed. (Cheers.) Auckland had been the author of the education system. He moved an amendment, "That the consideration of Mr. Reed's motion be postponed till a special meeting is held." (Cheors.)

Messrs. A. Otto and R. Farrkll opposed Mr. Reed's motion.

Dr. Laishlky said that at that late hour age should be raised, and also the first to proposes that freo [education should he would speak only for a few minutes. He thought he had some little claim to speak to Mr. Reed's motion, as ho (the speaker) thought that ho was the first man to propose publicly in New Zealand that the school stop at the fourth standard. Ifc did not concern him to inquire whether the motion was a popular or an unpopular one, for when truth was uttered it would sooner or later bo recognised—it was only an affair of time. Bub what did concern him was to place beforo them that the present system of education must fall of its own weight, and that at no distant date—(cheers) —and Mr. Reed, in bringing forward his motion that night, was a truo friend of tho system. (Rc- \ newed cheering). It was only by modification in tho expenditure that the lifo of the present system could be prolonged ; therefore it was quite clear that all who wore admirers of tho system —lie was not— should vote for Mr. Rood's motion. (Applause.) He was not, because he held that it was prirnaril)" the duty of parents and guardians to educate the children, and not the duty of the State. The State should only provide free tuition for thoso unable to pay, and tho only further gratuitous instruction should be scholarships for brilliant pupils who were too poor to otherwise acquire higher education. He entirely disapproved of University and secondary education at the State expense, because tho State had no right to spend public money for nny education which is nob required for State purposes, save in the case of the scholarships already referred to. (Cheers.) He did not propose now to give his reasons for these views, as he had written very fully on the subject. Tho propositions involved in tho motion wero a stop in the right direction towards the achievement of his ideas—apart from any question of finance —and he therefore supported them nob only on the ground of finance, bub also, and mainly, on the ground of principle. Ho knew that he was speaking most unpopular views, but that in no way concerned him ; the only question was, were they sound ? He believed of that there was no doubt, and further he also believed—as he had already stated—that all the friends of the present system should, as a moans towards possibly prolonging its existence, (support Mr. Reed's motion. (Choers.) Mr. J. H. Upton thought it would be a very groat pity if Mr. Speight's amendmont were carried. He, however, could not vote for Mr. Reed's motion, but he sympathised very largely with what that gentleman had said. Now Zealand had made up its mind that it would adhere to the system of primary instruction. (Hear, hear.) He agreed with the mover of the resolution that the school age should be raised. (Cheers.) He thought—and he was quite sure that the greatest authorities of the age were agreed—that the age of five was too young at which children should be sent to school. The public schools were, to a large extent, nurseries. (Applause.) But he entirely differed with the mover of the resolution that free education should stop at # the fourth standard, though, perhaps, primary instruction should stop there, or about that point. Instead of the endowments for secondary education being used

as at present, they should be devoted to the purpose of providing a system of free scholarships for children who had passed the fourth standard. This would save a very large sum indeed. (Cheers.) Mr. John London agreed with Mr. Reed's motion-, but thought it better that they should adopt Mr. Speight's suggestion. The Roman Catholics got nothing from the State, and yet they paid their share towards the education of the people. In Napier there was not one Catholic going to the Government schools—they were going to their own schools, and were able to compete with boys educated at the public schools. (Cheers.) The children o:f the colony were being educated beyond their position. (Hear, hear.) Mr. W. pointed out that a great many young children were in the fourth standard at the schools, and unable to write their names. He thought children who had passed the fifth standard should pay for their own education. Mr. Rkkd replied to the various speakers who had addressed the meeting respecting his motion. He considered that it would be treating so intelligent an audience very badly if they were not allowed the opportunity of voting on this question. (Hear, hear.) It had been said that Auckland was the birthplace of the system, but he contended that the extravagance in its administration did not arise here. (Cheers.)

The question was put to the meeting, when the number of hands held up for and against tho motion was very even, and the Mayor said he thought Mr. Speight's amendment had been carried, when there was loud cheering. Mr. Reed demanded a count of hands, when the Mayor asked that that those in favour of Mr. Speight's amendment should go to the south side of the hall, and thoso who supported the motion to the opposite side. Tellers were appointed, and it was then claimed that Mr. Reed's motion had been carried by a few votes, but eventually the chairman, finding it was almost impossible to take the division correctly, ruled the votes to be equal on both sides, and said he would convene a special meoting to consider the proposals submitted by Mr. Reed. Mr. W. Duncan moved " That copies of the resolutions adopted by this meeting be forwarded to the Government and the Auckland members, with an earnest request that their best efforts will be used to secure the results they indicate." The motion was seconded by Mr. Crowther, and agreed to. A vote of thanks to the chairman closed the meeting.