THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XXII, Issue 7383, 18 July 1885, Page 6

THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Friday. Thk Council met at half-past two. TRADE WITH RIO. Iα answer to Mr. J. Menzibs, who asked the Colonial Secretary if he could inform this Council what amount of agricultural and dairy produce had been exported during the last three months to Rio Janeiro, the new and promising market opened to settlers in this colony by the establishment of the steam service to the United Kingdom by way of Magellan Straits, The Colonial Secretary produced a return showing the total value to be £2133. PROTECTION. Mr. Chamberlin moved, -'That this Council is of opinion that New Zealand detiros and requires a protectionist policy.'" fie spoke briefly in support of protection, and the encouragement of local industries, and advocated that revenue should bo raised by the taxation of property. Colonel Brktt formally seconded the motion, which was at once put to the vote, and negatived without a division. CHRISTOHURCH LQAN BILL. The Council wonts into Committee on the Chriatohurch Loan Validation Bill, which was afterwards read a third time, and passed. BILLS READ FIRST TIME. The School Committee Election Bill, and the Armed Constabulary Amendment Bill, were received from the House of Representatives and read a first time. The Council adjourned at five minutes put three p.m. [by telegraph.—press association.] HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. Friday. The House met at half-past two p.m. READ THE SECOND TIME. Mr. Tolk moved the second reading of St. Mary's Convent Property Leases BilL Agreed to. Mr. Wilson , moved the second reading of the Napier Gas Company Act, 1875, Amendment Bill. Agreed ito. QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr. Allwrigut, if the Government, when considering the granting of endowments to the Wellington Harbour Board, will also consider the granting of endowments to the Lyttelton Harbour Board, Mr. Larnach said the Government had received no application from the Harbour Board. Replying to Mr. Allright, whether it is a fact that travelling agents for the New Zealand Government Insurance Association axe provided with free passes on the Government railways ; if so what amount is credited to the Railway Department for such passes, Mr. Richardson said the information was not a fact. Replying to Mr. Gakrick, whether the return ordered by this House ou 19th September, ISS4, showing the amounts paid to the several Crown Prosecutors in the varioue judicial districts of the colony during the year ending 31st March, ISS4, and the names of such prosecutors respectively, the names of all other members of the legal profession who have daring the year ending the 31st March, ISS4, transacted legal business for the Government or any departments of the publio service, stating such departments respectively, and the amounts paid to such persona respectively for provisional services, will be laid before this House during the present session of Parliament, Mr. Tole said the return was in course of preparation. ELECTION OF JUSTICES. Sir G. Gary introduced a Bill to provide for the election of justices of the peace. THK SAK FRANCISCO SERVICE. Sir J. Vogil moved, " That this House on Friday next resolve itself into committee of the whole to consider the following resolution : ' That the Government be requested to negotiate for a fresh mail service between Auckland and San Francisco for five years, at a cost not exceeding £30,000 per annum. Mr. Rolleston asked whetner Sir J. Vogel would, before the motion came on, supply the House with a return showing the monthly cost of tho direct mail service and the San Francisco service ? He said it was important tho House should have full information on those points before the proposal was considered. Sir J. Vogkl said he would endeavour to obtain the information, and would postpone the motion until Friday next. UNDERPAID OFFICERS. Mr. Moss moved for a return of telegraph and poet-office clerks who have been more than five years in the service, and whose salaries are under £130 per year, with the salary of each respectively; also, for a return of the Bumber of messages received, and number of messages forwarded during the last financial year to and from each of the telephone bureaus, with the cost of each bureau for salaries and for expenses respectively. Agreed to. LAND BILL. Mr. Ballance moved the second reading of the Land Bill, He said a great necessity had existed for a consolidation of the land laws of the colony, and there had been no each measure introduced sinee 1677. He would have wished to bring down a more comprehensive measure, dealing with the prices of land and other matters, but he thought there would be no chance of passing it this session. The present Bill, he explained, was chiefly a consolidation measure. He said there had been much criticism on the measure, but principally based on the land laws as they already existed. He trusted that the Bill would receive from the Waste Lands Committee as much care and attention as the Land Act of 1577 had received. He thought that that Land Act had been very beneficial to the country. It had been framed by a gentleman who was no longer a member of the House (Mr. Donald Keid), and was very creditable to the Government who introduced it. The main object they should have in view was to get bona fido settlers on the land of the colony, and to keep them there. The question of keeping the people en the land was surrounded with very great difficulty, and notwithstanding all the efforts of legislation in this direction for years past, it had been a total failure. He thought the system of perpetual leasing had been very successful, and he believed there was nothing in the world to equal that system. He was of opinion they should not confine themselves to one particular system, but allow all systems a fair trial. He thought it was better for a labourer to have a ten acre holding in the neighbourhood of large centres, than to be compelled to live in the back streets of , cities. He contended the special settle- , ment system had been a failure, although , be Was not prepared to blame the Minister who had introduced that aysem. He adduced several reasons in support of this argument. With regard to surveys, he proposed to give power for surveys to be made by contract by qualified men. He was strongly in favour of the operation of the ballot in sales of land, and contended that nothing had tended more to make the deferred payment system a failure than sale by auction. With regard to small runs provision had been made in the Bill for cutting tip and leasing them, which he considered would be very advantageous. It appeared to him that a large quantity of land in the North Island was only suitable for small runs, but in Canterbury and Otago, it might be advisable to cut up the large blecks into smaller runs. As to endowments, he thought the time had come when a large portion of the endowments of the colony should be brought under what he might term settlement conditions. He also considered that the administration of the educational reserves in the past had been found by experience to be anything but satisfactory. If they were to make any progress in the future, they must see that the land should carry as much people i as it was capable of carrying. He said there was a strong desire that the system of capitalisation should be extended, i and he saw no reason why at the end of one year the principle of capitalisation should not be allowed. The new provisions in the Bill, in bis opinion, were calculated to largely increase the powers of the Government in administering the land, and he thought the time bad come when legislation should be i effectual.

Mr. Bollestoh said Mr. Ballance was to lie congratulated on the speech he had made. It showed that be had a very earnest desire to administer the waste lands of the Crown in a satisfactory manner. It seemed to him that the whole question should be considered under three heads—namely, the settlement of the land ; secondly, revenue ; and thirdly, the means of communication

and opening up the land by roads. Hβ agreed with the mover, that what they wanted wae fixity of tenure. As regarded pastoral Und, he thought the pastoral tenants had in the past been made the subjeet of a political battlegrouud. One of the main points for consideration was whethor the land should remain for pastoral purposes. The question of the best means of obtaining the most revenue should also be considered. It seemed to him they should have some certainty as regarded their land legislation,, and not leave it to the Governor-inCouncil to determine. With respect to agricultural land he was willing to see tho utmost variety in dealing with those lands, so as to promote the settlement of boua fide occupiers on the ground. He agreed with most of what had fallen from the Minister of Lands when introducing the Bill, as it was evident that in many respects he took the same line of thought as to the settlement of the land as he (Mr. Rolleeton) had arrived at after careful study of the question. He said if they were to have a large system of land endowments they must not increase the numbor of Laud Boards. The system of perpetual leasing, he thought, would work together with the Public Trust Office, aud would secure the application of the funds from the lands leased in a most desirable manner. The subject of perpetual leasing had occupied his attention a good deal, aud it was a great gratification to him to find from the Crown Lands report that the system had been found to possess more virtues than it was creditod with. Ho contended that tho perpetual leasing system would moro than answer the end to bo gainod by the exteneiou of the homestead system. Aβ regarded the special settlement scheme, he would introduce a clause to do away with special settlements to which there were several objections, one of which was the interference of middle men. Aβ said the regulation would lead to a large amount of confusion in the future. He thought the blocks of land which could be brought under this system could not be open to the whole of the colony, but would practically bo nonplussed by the associations.

Mr. Mo.NTGOMKRT wished to draw attention to the price of land in various parts of the colony. Hβ attributed the difference in prices to the old provincial regulations, and thought it would bo a matter for the Waste Lands Committee to consider whether there should not be some uniformity in this respect. He also hoped the committee would consider whether it would not bo advisable to introduce the homestead system into our land laws. He contended that the laud itself was worth absolutely nothing unless there was labour put on it, and he thought it would be better to put the people on the land without any price being paid for it than to ailow the land to remain unoccupied. He thought if the land were occupied as quickly as it could be surveyed the question of price snonld be a secondary consideration. The main thing to be considered at present was to make our land laws so as to induce ssttlers, not only in this country but from other countries, to come and make homes for themselves, as he coDjioered this would have a most important effect on the future of the colony. Mr. Beetham considered the leasehold system the beet that could be adopted.

Mr. Hitr>t said Mr. Montgomery was to be congratulated in the remarks and suggestions he had made on tho Bill. Hβ considered that many people from England were prevented from coming to the colony to settle in cousequeuce of the uncertainty of our laud laws. He advocated the perpetual leasing system on the grouud that people would not come to the colony if they could not get a lease. Mr. Hobbi said it had been advanced that under the special settlement eystem people would pick out the eyes of the country. He thought that was what they were wanting to do. Hβ would support an amendment making one eyitem of settlement applicable to the whole colony. Mr. Kerk contended that the land in the past had not been properly surveyed and cut up for settlement. He advocated the making of roads to open up the land, which, in his opinion, would people the country more than any scheme of immigration. Sir. Moat said the homestead system had proved very beneficial in the North of Auckland. A number of settlements had been formed in that part of the country, and in most cases they had done woll. He said a large portion of land in Auckland was as good as any in Canterbury, but there was also a large quantity of indifferent land there. Hβ doubted whether tho perpetual leasing system would be successful, although it had found favour in many quarters. The debate was interrupted by the halfpast five adjournment. The House returned at half-past seven p.m. Mr. Ivess said he recognised the Bill as an earnest desire to administer the land laws of the colony. Hβ said it was pleasing to see the late Minister for Lands and the members of the late Government assisting to pass the present Bill. Mr. Bruce strongly objected to perpetual leasing, as he believed it was false in principle, and would become vicious in practice. He contended that the way to keep people on the land was to give it to them on favourable terms. The land should also be sold in as email allotments ay possible, and sold at cost price on deferred payment and on the freehold system. Mr. Hcr.sthod.se said no man waa more desirous than ne of seeing '<r liberal land law, and he contended there w«.ro no more liberal land laws than those iu this colony. He expressed himself in favour of the perpetual leasing system. He said his whole object in speaking was to endeavour to induce the House to reduce the minimum price of land in the colony. He intended, in committee, to move for reduction in price of land that was now 10s an acre to ss. He intended to support the Bill, as he believed there was nothing objectionable in it. Mr. Stodt hoped the Houee would not consent to eliminate perpetual leasing from the Bill. He contended that the best farms had been carried on by leaseholders in Scotland with no reliable tenure at all. Hβ said the land question was the great question of the future, and it would never be settled by the freehold system. He combatted the argument that the freehold system existedin France, and said the State exercised more control over a man's property in France than in this colony. He instanced a case in which perpetual leasing sections were applied for three times over, and deferred payment selections not at all. He thought it would be an evil day for New Zealand when it had no State land, and hoped that day would never come. He hoped the House would confirm the legislalation of last session, and provide that deferred payment seleotione should not be allowed to sell after three years. It was not in the interests of the poor man that this clause was asked for. If Parliament allowed deferred payment holders to obtain Crown ((rants after fhree years, it would be far better to do away with the system alto* gether. Mr. Duncan said he intended to support the Bill, with eotne amendments, in committee. Mr. Fi-hes said the House should c;ivo credit to the Minister for Landaf or introdnction of this Bill, as it shewed the earnest desire of hon. gentlemen to settle the people upen the lands. He desired also to compliment the late Minister for Lands for his efforts in ■ this direction. Hβ agreed with those honourable members who condemned the perpetual leasing system, and said the reason why there were no small freeholders in Scotland, as stated by the Premier, was because of the impossibility of obtaining freeholds in that country. Hβ could not understand how they were to have the freehold system and the deferredpayment system, with the perpetual leasing system added. The auction system, to his mind, was reponsible for the complete breakdown of the deferred-payment system in this country, and he hoped it would be abolished, and ballot substituted for it.

Mr. Smith complained of the administration of the Waste Lauds Board iu the past, and he hoped that the House would in committee affirm the elective principle for these Boards. He condemned the principle of large holdiugs, and advocated the putting up of the land into blocks suitable for small holders. He thought the leasehold system would prove of great advantage. Mr. Steward thought there was much to be said for the perpetual leasing system, but he would not do away with the freehold system altogether, as many persons came to the colony expecting to obtain freeholds. He thought the Government would do a f>reafc deal for the country if they negotiated for the purchase of land at a fair market value in places where it was open for settlement. He thought an effort should be made to restore to the Act the pastoral deferred payments clauses, which were so unadvisedly struck out. He hoped that Ministers would endeavour to provide some

means of settlor ent of the land for the people of the colony. Mr. Ptkk said he was surprised to find 80 much time taken up over the Bill, as a great deal of the discussion would have to be taken in committee. He would far rather see a measure brought in which would give satisfaction to the people of the country, which this Consolidation Bill would not do. He conteuded that more unsatisfactory land laws did not exist than were at present in force in New Zealand, and many people had left the country in consequence of them. Mr. Ballancb did not agree that the land laws .vere so unsatisfactory as the member for Dnnatan represented. Ho considered that on the whole they had worked very well. Hβ thought it was better that the land should be occupied as special settlements than that the eyes of the country should be picked out by speculators. He thought if a Royal Commission were appointed to inquire into the matter, they would find that the deferred payment settlers were fast disappearing, and were being bought out of their land. Aa to the argument about tho construction of roads to lands, he thought if land were given away without roads, a severe injury would be done. There had been no money available for making roads to lands, and it would cost an enormous amount of money to oonstrust them. Referring to some remarks from the member for Wellington South, he said he thought he had paid his predecessor a high compliment by the manner in which he had referred to his inauguration of the perpetual leasing system. Hβ was extremely gratified by the way in which the Bill had been received by tho House. The second reading of the Bill was then put, and agreed to on the voices. STAMI'S SILL. Mr. Stout moved the second reading of the Stamp Act Amendment Bill, and briefly explained its provision. Mr. Downie Stewart said the Bill would have an oppressive effect by adding 50 per cent, stamp duty to dealing with land. Mr. CoNOLLT would not oppose the eecond reading, although there were some parts of it he did not like. He recognised that the Government must have revenue at present, and possibly this wonld bo as effectual a way of raising it as any other. The motion for tho second reading was agreed to. DKCEASED PERSONS ESTATES DUTY BILL. Mr. Stodt moved the second reading of the Deceased fersone Estates Duties Act Amendment Bill, which, ho said, increased the duties on estates of deceased persons. Mr. Down'ie Stewart agreed that the duty on deceased persons' estates was a perfectly legitimate source of revenue. He objected, however, to the retrospective clauses of the Bill, which proposed to go baek for two years. The second reading was agreed to. THB COUNTIES BILL. Mr. Me Arthur resumed the debate on the seoond reading of the Counties Act Amendment! Bill. He did not consider the Bill would in tho slightest degree answer the requirements it was intended to provide for, and considerable want of knowledge had been shown in preparing it. The proposal for the election of a Chairman by the ratepayers was a very objectionable feature in the Bill, and would be much more expensive than the present system. He hoped the Bill would share the fate of the other Government measures, and that there would be very little of it left whon it came out of committee. Mr. Guinness supported the Bill. He thought the election of the Chairman by the ratepayers was one of the most commendable features in it. Hβ objected, however, to making the election annual. Colonel Trimblk was not in favour of the proposal for tt»e election of County Cbairmen by the ratepayers. Ho suggested several amendments to the Bill. Mr. Richardson criticised the Bill at some length, and made eeveral suggestions for the committee. Mr. Rollkston said there was a considerable difference of opinion in the town districts ae to their position with regard to the counties. He thought eorne clause should bo inserted to deliue the position of the main roads passing through town districts. Mr. Walker said tho annoyance felt at having two rates struck was very great. He thought there should be only one rating body. Mr. Lake expressed great disappointment with the manner in which the Bill had been framed. He disagreed with most of its provisions. Mr. Moat supported the second reading of the Bill, but objected to some of the details. Mr. Fkegus opposed the election of Chairman and the election of auditors as proposed by the Bill. Mr. Stout thanked many hon. members for the manner in which they had approached the Bill. The only exception he took was to the speech of the member for Manawatu, who evidently took advantage of the occasion to make a party speech of a bitter nature. The Premier then briefly referred to the various suggestions on the Bill, and said when the Bill was in committee he would endeavour to carry them out. The second reading was carried on the voices. The House rose at half-past one a.m.