THE CONCLUSION OF THE NOCONFIDENCE DEBATE.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XVIII, Issue 6146, 29 July 1881, Page 5

THE CONCLUSION OF THE NOCONFIDENCE DEBATE.

[by telegraph.—prkss association.]

. : Wellington, Thursday. The no-confidence debate was resumed by Dr. Wallis. He complained of the unfairness of the whips on both sidee in having undertaken to bring the debate to a close that night. It looked to him like partiality. They had allowed a certain latitude to members who had already spoken for addressing thoir constituents, and it was not fair to restrict those who- had not yet spoken in that way. He conceived that the Government scheme was the best that had been brought forward. He had a better proposal to make them, however. What they required was unity. Let them form districts on the priuciple of parishes, and give them certain powers. He would then transfer to them the property tax, so as to enable them to carry on operations. Alluding to the Rating Bill, _he denied the statement that the native lands had not been benefitted by the Public Works expenditure. The fact was that these landa were not worth a farthing an acre until Europeans came, and European expenditure took place. If the amendment wore carried Mr. Ormond would be sent for, and, finding that he could not form a Government, a dissolution would be granted. That was a most undesirable thing. In a few months they would go to the country in due course, and there was no good to be gained by propitiating events. But for the no-confidence issue raised, he would probably have voted otherwise than he proposed doing. . He did not believe the Government had the confidence of the country. They were a mixed lot; but ho desired to see the Government kept on the Treasury benches until the end of the session.

Mr. Tomoana complained that the Government had uot done justice to the Maoris, and for that reason he intended to oppose them. On this vote he left the Government because he felt that it bad fallen into the evil courses of the previous Government. He cautioned them that unless they were prepared to do more substantial justice to the Maoris there would soon be three parties in the House — the Government party, the Opposition, and the Maori members would form the third party. Mr. Jokes complained that the Government was strong in its centralising tendencies, and its whole aim was to legislate for the wealthy classes. The local bodies throughout the whole colony were dissatisfied with the Bill now put forward, inasmuch that it was not founded on principles of ■ common sense. He criticised the local works Board proposal, contending that sitting, as it would, in Wellington, the local bodies would be put to severe meonvenienco and expense. It was a notorious fact unless a member supported the Government he could not get even reasonable consideration for his district. That evil would be perpetuated and intensified by the Board, its tendencies otherwise would be to demoralise the House. The Government took credit for having effected a retrenchment policy, hut as a matter of fact it had been forced upon them by the other side of the House, and in many other respects they had attempted to sail under borrowed plumes. The debate was interrupted by the 0.30 adjournment.

The House resumed at 7.30 Mr. Jones continued the debate. He blamed Major Atkinson for taking advantage of the failure of the Glasgow bank, to aggravate the financial difficulties of the colony. He denied that there was now any danger of another Maori war, and, therefore, it was not necessary to maintain such a largo and expensive military force on the West Coast. The men of that force were, he knew, guilty of moral improprieties in regard to the natives. He strongly condemned the action of the Government towards the telegraph officers who struck, and asserted that the circulars sent to Australia to prevent the strikers getting employment, was directly at the suggestion of the Premier. Gross favouritism had also been shown in the police reductions, and the Government dare not allow an enquiry into their actioa in the matter. The Patetere business was one of which Ministers should be ashamed. Were it inquired into, such facts would be elicited as would make even a Boss Tweed blush. Even if they were not turned out on this occasion, the time was not, he was sure, far distant when Ministers would sink into their political graves, unwept, nnhonoured, and unsung. They would die by their own act. Mr. Pyke said the House having so considerately waited until lie had returned from his visit to the South, lie felt bound, in courtesy, to express his views on the question at issue. The country demanded a large measure or reform in the direction of local {rovernment, and a large extension of power to the local bodies. At present the County Councils had powers litle larger than parish vestries. Otago had fought gallantly against abolition, but had accepted the new institutions' most loyally. The burdens of the provinces had descended upon the County Councils, but no means were given to sustain them. People had been anxiously looking for a remedy for the great evils

existing, but they were grievously disappointed with the Government proposals. There was discontent everywhere, and on every side a demand for reform. Ho denied that Ministers were entitled to credit for the improved state of the public finances. If this Treasury balance were larger, it had been made so by what he must term political robbery and violence. Such, for instance, was the enforcement of a 10 per cent, income tax on the Civil Service, and the deprivation of local bodies of the funds formerly at their disposal, and which had been solemnly guaranteed to them. The result of that was that the public works of the districts were knocked on the head, and the trade and commerce otherwise paralysed. Then, again, he denied that the native mind had been pacified. They were as little satisfied as the Europeans, and their representatives were unanimously opposed to the Government and its policy. Unless funds were provided for carrying out the functions of the local bodies, then Government would have to take upon themselves the control of local government, and administer the affairs by clerks from Wellington. The measures now before them were precisely the rejected measures of last session—measures rejected on that occasion with scorn. The proposal to rate Ciown lands was a mere subterfuge for the paying of subsidies out of consolidated revenues, instead of taking them out of the land fund. The Bill, as a whole, was utterly worthlces. Ho next alluded to the Roads Construction Bill. It simply meant an attempt to govern the whole colony and its affairs from , Wellington. The country could not and would not submit to this. Their aim ought to be opt centralisation, but 'decentralisation. That ..was the ex-

pressed and determined will of the people. He-was not going to propose any policy or scheme. The Government was placed on these benches to do that work. He did not opine the country would ever go back to provincialism. What they requh-ed was an extension of the counties scheme with increased powers and means. ; Referring to tho amendment, he said ho was not there to listen to anyside issue depending on it. The threatheried dissolution had no terror for him. He was not there to express confidence in Mr. Ormond. What he was there to do was to : express no confidence in the Government I'as constituted.. Then,: again, an attempt

had been made to intimidate them by the threat that there would be no Re-distribu-tion of Seats Bill. He did not believe that although there was no dissolution, they would get re-distribution. If the Government meant honestly in this matter, he asked why was not that Bill, as also the Railway Construction 'Bill,-' before them? The Government had had a ten months' recess, and when they were called together some fewtrifling measures were cast down, to enable them to fight over while the real business was kept back, until all hope of getting it passed this session was out of the question. He would vote for the amendment, leaving those who condemned the measure, but refused to vote for the amendment, to reconcile their conduct with their consciences.

Mr. Seddon said that there was too much government. They had some 800 governments in the colony, and they had far too little common-sense. They were surrounded ou every hand by evidences of misrule, evidences of incapacity, and other evidences to show that they were not faithful to the trust reposed in them by their constituents, and the sooner they went to the country and allowed the electors to return men fit to do the business properly the better. In 1879 the amount administered by the Borough Councils was £1,200,000, and the expense of that administration amounted to £300,000. Such a state of matters was utterly absurd. In Westland the amount was £51,000, and the expense of administrating that fund £12,000. Such being the case, no wonder they could not find money for needed public works. He condemned the property tax, and denied the statement made by the Treasurer that it had been contributed freely. They had collected it with their hands as it were to the throat of local industry. He insisted that moving machinery ought to have been exempted from its operations.. He propounded a scheme for local government, based on the proposal that the colony be subdivided into local districts only with one local governing body called the local council, administering all local matters, police, education, moneys, railways, prisons, minea, and justice excepted, the boundaries of the districts to be fixed by commission. The present provincial districts to be subdivided into five ridings, with power to administer the waste lands matters, the members of the Board to be elected by the ridings. Referring to the Bills under consideration, he said he supported tho rating proposal, but found fault with the Road Construction Bill. Under existing circumstances, he thought it would be unfair to stop borrowing. He would give his vote, with the view of sending the House to the country. Mr. J. B. Fisher regretted that the Government had not stated its views at the

outset. He could only account for it on the plea that they kept the debate going until they had manipulated members and secured a majority. The question, as he recognised it, was centralisation against decentralisation. The Bills before them were of a centralising tendency, and as such he looked upon them as unsatisfactory. The county system required reorganisation. It 3 defects were a want of power and a want of money. The best thing the Government conld do would be to take the stamp duties, property tax and Customs, leaving the rest of the taxation to be levied by the counties. He was in favour of the districts electing Judges, Magistrates, and Justices of the Peace, also establishing their Courts. They were able to do this quite as well as the Government. He had seen drunkards, gamblers, &c., occupying judicial benches. He knew magistrates over head and ears in debt, where dishonoured bills had been exhibited in the shop-windows, and where the very beds were mortgaged. Such men would be better left to be dealt with by the districts themselves. The Road Construction Bill was one of the

mO3t vicious proposals over brought before a Parliament. It simply meant that the Treasurer would exercise the whole controlling power. The Government could shield itself behind the Board, while in reality the Board was the Government. The ■ motto might well be bribery and corruption, for that was what the Board would amount to. The objectionable system of lobbying and button - holing Ministers for money for. public works would be greatly aggravated by the proposal now before them. Alluding to re-distribntion, denounced the excuses made for not having that measure brought down before this as being false and unfounded. He was inclined to think

that Government had everything to lose by a new Representation Bill, and the Opposition everything to gain. So strongly was he convinced of that, that even though the amendment be lost, they will go to the country without this promised Bill. THE DIVISION. The question was then put that the Bill be now read a second time. The House divided. The following is the division list: — Ayes, 41. . " Noes, 37. Mr. Allwright Mr. Andrews Mr. Atkinson Mr. Ballance Mr. Bain Mr. Barron Mr. Beetham Mr. Brown Mr. Bowen Mr. DeLatour Mr. Brandon Mr. Finn Mr. Bryce Mr. Fisher Mr. Bunny Mr. J. B. Fisher Mr. Colbcck Mr. S. T. Georgt Mr. Dick Mr. Gisborno Mr. Fox Sir G. GreyMr. Fulton Mr. Hamlin Mr. Gibbs Mr. Hams Mr. Hall Mr. Hutchison Mr. H. Hirst Mr. Jones Mr. W. J. Hurst Mr. Levistam Mr. Hursthouse Mr. Lundon Mr. Johnston Mr. Macandrew Mr. Kelly Mr. McDonald Mr. Kenny Mr. Montgomeiy - Mr. Levin Mr. Moss Mr. Mason Mr. Ormond Mr. McCaughau Mr. Pykc Mr. Murray Mr. Reeves Mr. Pitt . Mr. Reid Mi\ Richardson Mr. Seddon . Mr. Rolleston Mr. Sheehan Mr. Russell Mr. Shrimski Mr. Snunders Mr. Speight Mr. Seymour Mr. Taiaroa Mr. Shanks Mr. Tawhai Mr. Stevens Major Te Wheoro . Mr. Studholme Mr. Thomson Mr. Seddou Mr. Tole Mr. Swanson Mr. Turnbull Mr. Trimble Dr. Wallis Mr. Wakefield Mr. Wood Mr. Weston Mr. Whitaker ■ Mr. Whyte Mr. Wright. PAIRS.

Aye 3. ' Noes. Mr. McLean Mr. Stewart Mr. Oliver Mr. Bastings Mr. Moorhousp , Mr. Tomoaua Mr. Collins , ~ ; Mr. Shephard Mr. liUKdok stated that, having voted with his party against the Bill, he would now, for tho benefit of his constituents, vote for the Bill. Mr. Barron hoped if the Bill was read a second time, its provisions would be considerably altered in committee. ■ •:■,:, The Bill was read a second time. . Major Atkinson , moved that it be com- j mitted to-morrow fortnight. \ • ■ ' . Mr. DeLautour asked if this was an indication that the Bill was to be withdrawn. If so they should say so at once, and not waste further time. ~.,', '■'.'.-. \ Messrs. Moss and Speight spoke to the , same effect. '<:■■ ;':

Mr. Seddos moved that it be committed to-morrow week. He should now support the Bill.

After some further discnssion, _ Major Atkinson said of course the Opposition always knew better how to conduct tho Government business than, the Government did. As long as they were on those benches, however, they intended to conduct their business their own way. The Bill was ordered to be committed tomorrow fortnight.

The House rose at 12.30 p.m.