OHINEMURI MINERS' RIGHTS FRAUD ENQUIRY.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XII, Issue 4335, 5 October 1875, Page 2

OHINEMURI MINERS' RIGHTS FRAUD ENQUIRY.

[kbom our special correspondent.] Government Buildings, "Wellington', Monday, 8 p.m. The minutes of evidence of the Ohinemuri Committee, 2Gth August, and Mr. Brice in tlie chair. Mr. E. T. Brissenden was in attendance. The Chairman : This is a committee which has been appointed by the House of .Representatives to enquire into the alleged illegal issue of miners' rights at Ohinemuri, and we wish to take your evidence on the subject on oath. Mr. Brissenden declined to be sworn. Mr. Moorhouse: On the part of my client I expect to be heard. 3. The Chairman : I must put that question to the committee. The resolutions that had previously been passed, to the effect that evidence should be taken on oath, and that counsel might be present to advise Mr. Brissenden were read. Mr. Brissenden : Before I am sworn I have a few remarks to make. I am here, not as a witness, but as an accused party— in. fact I am a prisoner. The Chairman: That is not so. You appear simply as a witness, and nothing else. Mr. Brissenden : I understand that the papers in reference to the Royal Commission have been laid uponv the table, and in them I am distinctly accused of a fraud. There is no- Court in Great Britain that will compel an accused party to give evidence against himself, and on these grounds I absolutely refuse to be sworn. The Chairman : I can only repeat that there is no accusation against you, and that you are only here as a witness. ' Mr. Brissenden still refused to be sworn, and the room was cleared, in order that "ftie committee might deliberate. Mr. Brissenden was recalled, and Mr. McflS 7 house was permitted to speak in support of Mr. Brissenclen's objection to be sivorn. _ Mr. Moorhouse, counsel for Mr. Brissenden, addressed the committee at considerable length, contending that Mr. Brissenden. was not bound to criminate himself. Mr. Brissenden and Mit Moorhonse then withdrew, and the committee decided to again tender the oath to the former. They were then recalled. The Chairman: The committee has considered the arguments which have been offered by your counsel, and I have been directed formally to tender you the oath. Mr. Brissenden: "With all due respect to the committee I must refuse. I have pus myself in the hands of my counsel, and i. must be guided by him. I am entirely m your hands. I wish the members of tne committee, to understand that I came here intending to make a statement, a true statement, and lay before them documentary evidence, as stated by my counsel. The Chairman: The committee hear you, except on oath. ~ Mr. T. L. Shepherd : I submit that tne witness should be requested to withdraw, n having refused to be sworn. Mr. Moorhouse : I ask permission to confer with my client. . The Chairman : We have no objection w that. 3 The witness and his counsel then left, auu returned to the committee after the lapse o> about five minutes. _„ Mr. Brissenden:" "Well, gentlemen, my counsel advises me to take the oath, cons quently I am prepared to do so. . . The Chairmaif (after the oath M« been administered) : Witness,—l.ournsw is Edward Torrens Brissenden?" —What is your occupation? A „*L, e sent I am engaged in the of . native lands for the General *~ vemment of New Zealand.-;■ M.&b, remember.the date of that? Early m iw^'

I think it was.-Do you remember the day before the opening? Yes.-H.id you about that time made application for a number of Oners'rights? Yes.-What was the date n* that ? On the day previous to the openJne—it was late—about 8 or 9 o'clock at :|y,t —That was in the evening of the day previous to the opening 7 Yes.—How many Miners' rigtts did you apply for ? I handed In a listf and paid £53; first of all I paid £40, and then £13 more to Mr. Allom, the Registrar.—-Do you remember the names of those men in whose favour these rights were issued? I do not. I never saw them. —When did these miners' rights come into your possession ? On the morning they were distributed. —At what hour? About 6.30 a.m., I. should think.— How did they come into your possession ? They were given to me. —By whom ? I will lay this document before you (hands in letter) ; it will perhaps save a great deal of , ••"?estioning, and also your time.—By whom *-_;■ the letter signed ? By Mr. Gerald / O'Halloran. —I think, however, I had better repeat the question. How did you come into possession of those rights ? Who gave them to you?— Mr. G. O'Halloran. You have handed in this letter ; do you wish it read ?—I should like to have it read. It will perhaps save some trouble. The letter was read, as follows :—" Nelson, 20th August, 1575. Dear Sir, —I am informed that the evidence given before Major Keddell, the Commissioner appointed to inquire into the irregular issue of miners' rights at Ohinelnun, points to your having improperly taken the Tights in question without any authority. I feel bound, therefore, to say that there is no ground for such an imputation. I was at the time acting as clerk to Mr. Mackay,. and a number of miners' rights were in my possession. Knowing that you had paid for about 40, I, at your request,, handed to you those I thought you were entitled to.—Yours truly, Gerald O'Hallorax. E. T. Brissenden, Esq., Wellington." After these miners' rights came into your possession, what did you do with them ? I took them down to the place where I had been stopping the house of one Taipari, a native. —What then? Some time afterwards (I can't-well tell the time, but I should say it was somewhere about breakfast-time) a person named Dillon, one of the prospectors, came to me and asked if I had got the rights. I said, " Yes, 1 have," and I gave them to him, with strict injunctions that he was to be careful not to use them before the time. Mr. T. L. Shepherd: You have stated thar- you got DOssession. of these miners' rights on the morning of the day that the ground was' declared open for pegging. That was on the 3rd of March, was it not? I think that was the day the field was declared . o p en . —Do you remember w hen you put in your applications for the rights * About 10 o'clock on the previous night.—To whom ? Mr. Allom, the Registrar.— Where ? The Warden's tent, if you can call it so.— Where ? At Mackaytown. —Was that application in writing 1 A list was given to me by one of the prospectors, a Mr. McDonald. —Did you make application for a miners' right? One was made.—Who were present when yon gave in that list ? I 3hould think there were from fifteen to twenty people present at the time.—Did you say you gave the list to O'Halloran ? No. I gave it to Allom, the Registrar.—What did you say when you gave it to him ? I handed in my list.—But what did you say when you handed him the list? I said, "There is a list-of miners'rights which I want." —Did you request or say anything about getting them before other people ? No, I said nothing of the kind.—What did he tell you in reply ? He picked up the money and said, "You shall have the miners' rights at the proper time."—What was the proper time? 10 o'clock in the morning, I believe, but I am not sure.—But how did they get into your possession? At 0.30 I asked Mr. O'Halloran for them.—Where ?—at Mackaytown, in the Registrar's Office? No.—Who was Mr. O'Halloran? He was, I believe, clerk to Mr 7 Mackay.—Why did you change your application from the Registrar to Mr. Maekay's clerk ? I did not change my application; the Registrar received my list and monev.— Then, who told you to apply to ■the clerk ? No one. —Did you know, of your own knowledge, that they were to be issued at 10' o'clock on the following day ? I did ; at least I supposed so. —Was that the proper time for them to be issued? I believe it ■was.—Yet at 6.30 you went to Mr. Maekay's clerk, and asked him for the rights ? Yes, I •did j I rode over from Takerei's house, which is a mile and a-half from the goldfield, and where I had been staying, to where the clerk was. —At Takerei's?--Certainly not; the clerk was at Mackaytosvn, and I staid there all night.—Where do you say the clerk was ? In his tent. —What tent ? The tent he slept in.—Did you sleep in the tent too ? I did.—Did you arrange with him over night? I did not.—Did you wake him in the morning. No—Who woke first? I think he did.—Did you know be had the rights in his pocket ? I did not.—Did you ask if he had the rights ? I saw them.— How ? In his possession.—Did he shew them to you ? He shewed them to me in bundles in a satchel, or something of that sort, he had.—Did you ask him to give them to you before the proper time ? I did not say before the proper time. I merely asked if. I could get them. That was .6.30 a.m., or about that.—Was there any private arrangement beforehand ? No.—Did he ,<?ive any miners' rights to others before ten Vclock ? I do not know.—You were the only recipient on that occasion? I did not sec anybody else.—How was it you slept there 1 I never slept there before nor since.—Were you invited to stay, in the tent with him? Why did you refuse to give evidence before the Commission? Well, I waa very badly treated ; but I should wish, if you will allow me, to make a little statement about that affair. The report of the Royal Commission, dealing with my action as a witness, did a cruel wrong to myself at that time. The Chairman : You can make your statement now, a3 an answer to Mr. Shepherd's question. Witness: It has been thrown out in Auckland and other parts of the colony, and I have been hawked about in the papers to a considerable extent during the. last three or four months, becau£<s,' refused to give evidence. All is that I was waiting in iScfcland somewhere about sixteen or eighteen days for money from the Treasury, when Major Keddell, who then held the commission, met me several times in Auckland. I have heard that the- Government is said to have refused to allow me to give evidence. I hold a telegram from the Native Minister relative to my examination before a committee of the Provincial Council of Auckland about land purchasing in the North, telling me by all means to give the fullest evidence. That telegram, should do away with the impression that the Government had prevented me from giving evidence. Sir George Grey : You never Bhewed me that telegram. Witness : I went to see you. and waited for three-quarters of an hour, but did not see vou, as you were engaged, and afterwards you went to the Kawau. Whilst I was waiting on that occasion, I was talking for twenty minutes with Major Keddell. 1 had been on friendly terms with him for some years, and he held this commission at the time. We had met several times in the streets of Auckland during the sixteen days I was there, and if he wanted to examine me it was surely his place to have summoned ae, and not mine to have gone, running after him. A few days afterwards I left town, and went to pay money for some native land 3 I was then dealing with. I had a meeting of between 500 and 700 natives at Herd's Point, Hokianga. Major Keddell, Mr. Thompson, and a policeman were there. I don't know whether the latter left Auckland with them, but he certainly came to Herd's Point with them. Came to the Bay of Islands, and singled out the Resident Magistrate, Mr. WilEams, and induced him to communicate by telegram with Mr. Von Stunner. The telegram was to this effeet: —-" Have a boat at 12 o'clock at night at the Takeke, for a mutual friend of ours." "ben I saw this mysterious telegram I said was Mr. John Webster who was expected. «£two or three in the morning thege gentle-.

men arrived. They closeted themselves in the room. It was given out thatPl was to be arrested before 500 or COO natives. I was certainly treated more like a convict on that occasion ; most disgracefully treated, I consider. Thoy did all they could in travelling through the country to damage my character. Would any right-thinking man, after being treated in the way I was, be in the slightest inclined to make the statement I am this day making here. Mr. D. L. Shepherd: Did Mr. Mackay sleep in the tent? He did.—Areyouaware that Mr. Mackay has sworn before that Commission that the miners' rights must have been taken out of his pocket ? Thatis the ground on which I objected to be sworn, inasmuch as I feel that I am here accused.—Did you ever inform Mr. Mackay where you got them? Well, I don't mind. [After a pause.] I think I never did tell Mr. Mackay.—Did he ever ask you where you got them ? Never. —Have you ever had any conversations with him between the 3rd of March and the present day ? I have had many conversations with him.—And you never told him where you got them ? I never did. Did he never ask you ? "To. —Thi3 is the first time you have m-.de this explanation ? Exactly.—Are you a ware whether the clerk, Mr. O'Halloran, has ever made this explanation before ? I am not aware.—Did you leave before Mr. Mackay got up that morning ? I do not know, I rather think he woke me up.—Who were present when you received the miners' rights from the clerk ? I cannot say. I have been trying to think it over, but I cannot swear.—Did none of your conversation with Mr. Mackay lead you to believe he knew you got the miners' rights from Mr. O'Halloran ? No conversation on that subject took place.—Did you not know that when you received those" miners' rights at 6.30 a.m., you were taking an improper advantage over the rest of the miners on the field 1 On that head I have also to make a little statement. I shall have to go back some little distance in order to be better able to tell my story. I think it was somewhere about the middle of February when the prospectors came to mo and asked me if I would interest myself to induce the Provincial Government to fulfil a promise made by them to secure to the prospectors a claim at Ohinemuri. The promise was made by a letter written by Mr. Williamson, the late Superintendent, I think. If I am mistaken, perhaps Mr. Sheehan will correct me. I know the men had been so promised some years ago, aad I was ready to some extent to assist them. I think the first person I applied to was Mr. Sheehan, then Provincial Secretary, and asked him if lie would see Mr. Williamson upon the subject. He promised to do so, and I think did. I saw Mr. Williamson himself afterwards, and was led to believe that the thing} would be carried out. Time went on, and a week or ten days afterwards I went down to the Thames. I looked upon it that the business of opening up Ohinemuri would soon be closed, the agreements be signed, and the field declared, open on an early day. The people then became very urgent. I was not sure that the powers Mr. Williamson then held as Superintendent would enable him to carry out the promise he had made. Indeed, I had been told he could not carry out the -promise. I think I then saw the Hon. the Native Minister. At all events, I did see the Hon. Dr. Pollen, but I got very little satisfaction from him. While at Ohinemuri the death of the late Superintendent came to our knowledge, and I asked Mr. Eraser, the Warden, if the delegated powers died with the Superintendent ? He said he did not know, but he believed they did. I also consulted with him, and asked what was best to be done to secure the prospectors their rights, There had been a great deal said about the mob rushing them, and their not being allowed to secure their ground. Indeed, I know such was talked about and intended, and so much was thought about it that a number 'of the Armed Constabulary were got down in anticipation of it. These men were urging upon me to try every source I could to secure their rights. After Mr. O'Rorke took the Superintendental chair I saw him about it, and urged him to see Dr. Pollen, but at that time no result was arrived at. I had a talk with Major Keddell, and asked him in what way the men could be secured in their rights. He replied that only by their miners' rights eould they take up the amount of ground they required. From that I had no distinct idea as to how to assist them, but I thought they ought to get abstract justice, and determined to get what I could for them. I could not see at the time that there was anything wrong in it, but I now see it was irregular. However, that was the sense in which I did it. The Chairman: That is your answer to the question 1 It is. Mr. T. L. Shepherd: How many prospectors were there? The number of prospectors was six or seven, but you know a number of people furnish the prospectors with money, and they reckon themselves as prospectors.—What were the names of the six or seven ? I can only give you positively the names of four, viz., SmitW, Coleman, Dillon, and McDonald.— What extent of ground did they claim ? The 30 acres, which I understood had been promised.—How many miners' rights did they require to hold that quantity of ground? I think it required 90 miners' rights. I think about three rights to an acre.—Did you know if any miners had pegged off any ground other than the Prospectors' claim ?— I do not know.—Did you give rights to anyone but the prospectors ? No, I only gave them to Dillon. —Had you any interest in the claim marked off, either directly or indirectly ? There were three different occasions on which my name was mentioned on the lists.—Give me a direct answer. I can't. I wish to tell you the way in which I understand it. The Chairman : Answer the question first. If you think any explanation is necessary, you will be allowed to make it. Mr. T. L. Shepherd: Had you in any sense, directly or indirectly, any interest on the claim marked off by rights at 6.30? Three times my name was entered in those ligts.—What interest had you under the pegging? If I had three men's ground, I would have three fifty-thirds, I suppose. —In the Prospectors' claim 1 Yes; but I never intended to claim, nor have I claimed any interest' whatever in Ohinemuri. Those men entered my name three times without any* authority for so doing, i—Were s.ny rights issued in your name ? \ believe so. —Did you . see them ? 7. never read the lists ; it was too dark to do so when I got them. —When did you first become aware you had three fiftythirds in the Prospectors' ? I was told that very day.—Did you give notice that you had abandoned your right? I did. —When? Some time afterwards. — What length of time! I cannot say; I left there forTauranga the following day.—Did you give notice before the inquiry, as there had been a great noise about the pegging? I cannot say I did. I can only say, my intention was never to make use of them. Mr. Sheehan : Mr. Brissenden, I believe it was a matter x>f public notification that money wouldbe received fortheminers' rights before the field was open? There was no fixed time for it. I believe money was actually paid till 12 o'clock at night, and they were making out rights until 3 in the morning of the day on which they were issued.— You speak of the Prospectors' claim ? Did you see the correspondence in the Superintendent's office in regard to it ? I heard o£ it, but I can't say that I saw it. Mr. O'Neill: Are you aware of any other persons having obtained miners' rights before ten o'clock on the morning of the 3rd of March except those you got ?. I think not. I have no knowledge of it. I have heard a hundred things, but I have no knowledge of it myself. , Sir G. Grey: Yon say that you knew Dillon some time before ? No, I did not say so. I was told he was the man who would come to me.—You say he was one of the prospectors? I believe, he was, and had been told he was.—When did you know him first ? I think I saw him on.the day before; at all events he was' limited out to me by one o£ the prospectors {Smith) r the day before he cams to'me.—Did yon get a promue • Iwpr«|fls4

it most thoroughly upon him that he was only to use them properly.—Do I then understand that he gave you a promise to the effect that he would keep these rights secret? I think so. My very remarks to him were enough for that.—What were the remarks? I told nim by no means to use the rights before the time, as to do so would get me and ethers into trouble. Those are the very words I used.—l believe what I want to know is, did he make you a promise to keep the fact of your having the rights a secret 1 I think he did ; the probability is that I asked him to so promise. Monday, 20th August. G. O'Halloran examined on oath. The Chairman: This is a committee appointed by the House o£ Representatives to make enquiry into the alleged illegal issue of miners' rights at Ohinemuri, and the committee wish your evidence on oath.—[Witness was here sworn.] —What is your name ? Gerald Bichard Disney O'Halloran.—What is your occuption ? I am clerk to Mr. Jame3 Mackay.—Do you remember the opening of the Ohinemuri goldfields ? I do.—What was the date? March 3rd, 1575. — What was your occupation at that time ? Clerk to Mr. James Mackay.—Do you remember about that time a number of applications being made for miners' rights on the Ohinemuri goldfield. I don't recollect when the applications were being made, not being present.—Did you know that applications were made ? Yes.— On the day before the opening,—on the 2nd of March ? ¥es.—Were these miners' rights issued on that day,— on the day previous to the opening ? I believe not. When I arrived it was about ten o'clock at night, on March 2, and I saw a number of clerks engaged in preparing miners' rights.—Do you known why the rights were not issued on the day before, when the application was made and the money received ? I knew generally that the field was not to be proclaimed until the next day, when the rights would be issued. The rights were to be kept back until the field was proclaimed. I understood that generally. And when was the field proclaimed ? I believe at 10 o'clock on the morning of March 3. —And were the rights issued at that time ; —the rights applied for on the previous day? I was not present at the opening, and I left for Katikati before 10 o'clock.—Do you know whether any rights were issued previous to your leaving—any of the rights applied for the day before ?—I gave some rights to Mr. Brissenden before 1 left that morning.—Was it any part of your duty to issue rights? No.— Then why did you give them to Mr. Brissenden ? He asked me for them, and I gave them to himonthe spurof the moment? —How came you to have the rights ; how did they come into your possession?— Mr. Mackay left them with "me, amongst a number of other papers, on the morning of March 3. When did Mr. Mackay give them to you ? On the morning of the 3rd March, about 7 o'clock, or thereabouts. —Did he give them to you for the purpose of being issued ? No; he left them with me to take care of, amongst the other papers.—Did you give the whole of the rights that Mr. Mackay left with you to Mr. Brissenden ? I gave him one bundle of rights.—And what did you do with the other bundle? There were a number of bundles. I returned them to Mr. Mackay. —Did Mr. Mackay understand, when you returned those other bundles to him, that he received the whole ? I did not say anything about it.—Did you tell him that you had issued any of them ? I did not.—Was Mr. Mackay aware that you had issued some rights to Brissenden? No one could have been aware of it but Mr. Brissenden. —When Mr. Mackay gave you the rights did he say anything to you by which you could understand that you were to give the rights, or any of them, to Mr. Brissenden? He did not.—l do not quite understand your position. You received these rights, it appears, merely to keep until Mr. Mackay came back, and it would then have been your duty to have h.anded them back to Mr. Mackay/ How could you suppose it any part of your duty to give them to Mr. Brissenden ? I did not consider it any part of my duty to give them to Mr. Brissenden.—Then I should like you to state plainly why you gave them to him ? When Mr. Brissenden asked me to give them to him, and pressed me to do so I did so.—He " pressed you?" Whatdid he say, as nearly as you can remember ? He said, '' You know I have paid for these rights, and that I am not going to make any improper use of them," or words to that effect.— What did you understand him to mean when he gave the assurance that he would not make any improper use of them. What did you consider that that expression "improper use of them" meant ? I can hardly say.—Would it not have been an unjust use of them to have forestalled other diggers in pegging out ground on the Ohinemuri goldfield. Is that what you consider an improper use ? No doubt that would have been an improper use.—Did you not see that there • was a chance of that use being made of them by issuing them some hours previous to the general issue ? I did not consider sufficiently at the time.—Your position then, if I understand you, is that you handed these rights to Mr. Brissenden on the spur of the moment without sufficient thought ? Yes.— You have'no further explanation to give ? I must remind you that you have promised to tell the whole truth on your oath in this matter, and if you had any other reason at the time for giving Mr. Brissenden the rights, it is now your duty to tell the committee what that reason was. 1 had no other reason. I did it without thought. It was just immediately after Mr. Mackay had given the papers to me and left the tent.— What hour was it ? Between six and seven o'clock in the mornin, but T can't remember exactly.—Had you slept in the tent during the night yourself ? I had.—Who else was was in the tent with you during the night ? Mr. Mackay, Mr. Brissenden, and Mr. Crippen.—Was the tent yours ? Yes, it was mine.—Did Mr. Brissenden stay the.-i, that night by your invitation ; and how come he to stay there ? Mr. Mackay aud Mr. Brissenden thought it was too late to go away, so they came into ray tent. I was going away to my tent, and they said they would go and sleep there.—Had Mr. Brissenden been in the habit of sleeping in the tent with you ? That was the first night I was there. I had just got the tent pitched for the night. Sir D. Maclean : Where was the tent ? Close to the large buildings occupied as offices by the Warden. The Chairman : Have you stated to the Committee what Brissenden said to you when he pressed you to give him the miners' rights ? I think so. I don't recollect his stating anything else.—Did he give you any special reason for wishing to have to have the rights before the general delivery at ten o'clock ? I don't recollect.—l should like to tax your memory on that point, because the Committee probably attach some importance to it. I can't say he did give any special reason. It ail took place, I may almost say, in a moment, and he left the tent immediately afterwards.—ln handing back the other bundles of miners' rights to Mr. Mackay you said you did not mention to him. that you disposed of part of them to Mr. Brissenden ? I did not mention it.— Why did you not 1 He left those bundles with you as a matter of trust, and you disposed of some of them in the meantime. Why did you not tell him you had done so ? I did not say anything about it. I did not wish to say anything.—lt seems to me a most obvious thing that you thould have mentioned that you had disposed of some of them, and I ask you distinctly why you did not mention it to him ? I did not like telling Mr. Mackay that I had given them away. Of course I had no right to. give them away. —You knew then, it appears, that you had done wrong ? I did; but it was some time afterwards.—You knew it was wrong, because you had had time for reflection. Is that what you mean ? Yes.—Did you at any subsequent period tell Mr. Mackay that you hail given these rights to Mr. Brissenden ? Wot until after I wrote the letter to Mr. Bvissenden.—Have you ever told Mr. Mackiiy ? I mentioned it to him after I had written the letter—since I came to Wellington. —When was that ?. On Tuesday last.— On you did you neyer mention it to Mr. Mackay previously to that timet On my

oath I never did mention it to him previously. Sir George Grey: At what o'clock did Mr. Mackay give you theße papers and rights? I cannot say exactly, but between 6 and 7. — What did he give them to you for ? He gave them into my charge; he was in the habit of giving me his papers. I had charge of his land purchase papers.—How long did they remain in your possession ? About two hours.—What made him give them to you for two hours ? He was going away on horse-back to look after some road work or survey lines, I forget which. — '■ Who was in the tent when you gave then to Mr. Brissenden ? Mr. "Brissenden and myself.—No one else ? No.—Did Mr. Crippen know you had given them to Mr. Brissenden ? He did not.—Does he know it now ? I have never told him.—Did Mr. Mackay send you with a message to Mr. Alloml' No.—Whom did he send with that message to Mr. Allom ? Crippen, I believe.—And you knew that the message had been sent about the missing miners' rights, and you let the message go without Baying anything ? It was the night before that the message was sent.—Were those not the same miners' rights? No. — What were they? Some that had never been made out. —Who sent you to Katikati ? Mr. Mackay.—When did he order you to go ? Between eight and nine o'clock that same morning.—Did you know the evening before that you were to be sent away ? I did not. —A.t what o'clock did you give the miners' rights to Brissenden? Between six and seven I should think ; but I do not recollect looking at my watch; there is nothing by which I can arrive at the exact time.—Did Mr. Brissenden go back again the same day from Mackaytown? I did not see him again.—And you were sent away the same morning ? * Yes. —When did you come back? On the- following day.—Were you in the Thames district when Major Keddell made inquiry into the circumstances ? I was at Ohinemuri, and was examined on the inquiry. —Did you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth ? I did. —And did you tell these circumstances ?— I answered all the questions that were asked me.—And you retained these facts from the Commissioner's knowledge? I was simply asked questions, and I answered them.— But you did not tell him these circumstances ? I did not. —Have you ever told to them to any other person ? No. Mr. O'Neill: Are you aware that Mr. Brissenden had paid for these rights on the previous day, or lodged the money with Mr. Allom, the Registrar ? I saw him pay a Bum of money for miners' rights to Mr. Allom. Mr. T. L. Shepherd : When these rights were lodged with you were you aware they were to be issued at 10 o'clock at the proper office ? Yes ; generally speaking I was aware of it. But I was not informed of it in any particular way.—Did you kxow that they were not to be issued before 10 o'clock ? It was generally understood that that was the time, but I can't say I knew it specially.— Had you any power to issue them?- No.— Were you aware that Mr. Brissenden was going to use them for the purpose of pegging out ground ? I did did no consider, but I suppose that must have been the object.— Did you think at the time that you were assisting him to commit a fraud ? I did it on" the spur of the moment, and if I had taken time to consider I should not have done so. —You said he persuaded you to give them to him ? I said he pressed me, I think. —In -what way did he press you ? He said that I knew he had paid for them, and that he would not make an improper use of them, or words to that effect.—Then, did he .press you to keep it secret? He did.—And was that the reason why you kept your pledge till now? Yes.—Did he offer you any inducement ? No.—Did he agree to give you any share in the claim marked out ? No, he did not.—What number of bundles of miners' rights did you receive from Mr. Mackay ? I really do not knw; there were a number of them.—Did he count them? No. —Neither when you received or returned them 1 I returned them in a bag which he had given me.—Among other paper he gave you the bag to mind ? sTes ; he had these papers and miners' rights in his pocket, and he gave me the bag and told me to put them in it and keep it till he came back.—Did you put them in the bag ? I did; and while I was doing so I gave Sir. Brissenden a bundle. —Did you have a look through the bundles to get at the names? No; I saw his name on the top of the bundle. —Have you had any conversation with Mr. Brissenden from that time about the matter ? I think once in Auckland. — What took place then; and who commenced the conversation, and what were the exact words used ? I really could not say the exact -words. It was some time after Major Keddell's inquiry, but he said something about having "got into a nice mess."— Who had got into a nice mess ? Myself and he.—Has Mr; Mackay ever seen you between the " marking out " of the ground and Tuesday last ? Yes ; very frequently.—Ha3 he ever spoken to you about the matter ? Not particularly. He may have spoken to me generally about the issue of miners' rights. —Did he never ask you whether you had given away any of these miners' rights while you had charge of them ? I do not recollect his doing so. Sir George Grey : How many conversations do you think you have had with Mr. Mackay about these missing miners' rights ? I really could not say. I have bsen his clerk, and have been constantly with him. So he may have spoken to me frequently about it; but I do not recollect any single conversation wo had oh the subject.—Did he never ask you whether the rights had got out of your possession, and whether you had been the person who gave them up ? No.—And you always concealed the fact from him ? I did, because I did not wish to get Brissenden into trouble over them.—And you knew that Mr. Mackay was believed to have done it ? I did not. —You were net aware that it had been stated that Mr. Mackay had done it, and that the Commissioner had reported that it was Mr. Mackay ? I was not aware of that.—Were you aware of the nature of the evidence that Mr. Mackay gave before the Commissioner before Mr, Mackay told you that ? He never told me his evidence, but since I came to Wellington I have seen it. — Was it in the tent that you gave them to Brissenden ? It was.—And who was there ? Mr. Brissenden and myself. The Chairman: Did you write and sign this letter, "Appendix"? I did. —Have you seen the report which the Commissioner made to the Government after the inquiry which was made into the alleged illegal issue of rc-uers' rights ? I have seen it.—Are you not aware that the conduct of Mr. Mackay has been impunged by that report in respect of the issue of rights ? I am not. I saw a copy of soiiie evidence, but I do not think I saw any report of the Commissioner. I do not recollect reading it.—" And I certify my opinion to be touching the premises that the issue of miners' rights as aforesaid by James Mackay was an improper issu .. by the ' said James Mackay, and was done prior to the time at which miners' rights were to be issued." If you have seen the report you must recollect that clause. Do you still say you were not aware that Mr. Mackay's conduct was impugned by the report ? I do say so. I understood that it was Mr. Brissenden. Sir George Grey: You said to the Commissioner, " I cannot say where the miners' rights were in the morning, but I am satisfied that he (Mr. Mackay) had them in a haversack on his back." That was the evidence you gave ? Yes.—But when you gave that evidence you knew that you had them in the morning ? Yes, I did, but Mr. Mackay had them "first. When I said in evidence that Mr. Mackay had them in the haversack, I was speaking of the night when he had them in the haversack.—You did not then tell the Commissioner that you had had them in the morning ? No, I was not asked the question. Mr. O'Neill: Did Mr. Mackay take the haversack off his back and give it to you to take charge of ? He did. The Chairman : Why did yon write that letter to Mr. Brissenden? -I understood that, he had been accused of taking these rights,

and I thought I would clear him from it.—" "Did Mr. Brissenden apply to you to -write this letter 1 Did he request you to do so ? -No, he did not.—lt was purely voluntary 2 Yes. " Hon. Sir Donald McLean : I see that you wrote the letter, from Ifelson ? Yes; and , re-wrote it here. The Chairman : "Were there two letters ? The one you nay you wrote in Nelson, and the one you re-wrote here, are they the same ? To the same effect.—Was it a verbal difference only ? Yes, merely verbal.—You wished to improve the wording of it, but did not alter the sense ? Yes. Sir George Grey : Did you consult with any people here before you sent that letter to Mr. Brissenden? ,I did not. Monday, 30th August. Mr. Brissenden further examined on oath. Sir George Grey: "Were you summonsed by Major Keddell on the 30th of July, at Auckland, to appear on Monday, the sth, at half-past two o'clock ? Yes. I received the Bummons at eight or nine o'clock on Saturday night. I had made it quite public about my going to "Wellington. I waß not ordered down by the Ministry in aDy shape or form. It was my own doing. I had business which I considered required ray Eersonal attendance at Wellington. I ad told Major Keddell, at Hokianga, that as soon as I arrived at Auckland I intended going to Wellington, in reference to many matters connected with the Land Court. I hid to get back and attend a Court, to be held at Kaihu on the 11th of the present month. I made my arrangements quite publicly, and I could not very well alter them. I'told Major Keddell I should not give them any further evidence. I told him that distinctly, at Hokianga. I said I would let Mm know when I returned to town on the Saturday. At 8 or 9 o'clock I received a summons for Monday. I went to Mr. Hesketh (of Hesketh and Bichmond), who lives [near ine, and requested that he would go and make my excuses, and state why I had gone after I had decided to give no further evidence to Major Keddell. It was out of no disrespect to Major Keddell's position or to the Royal Commission he held. That was the course I had adopted.—Did you tell him at Hokianga that you would give him no further evidence ? I did tell him, not positively. I said, "It is my impression that I shall give you no further evidence."—Did you say, " I must request permission to have my solicitor's advice before I give you further evidence ?" I did say that, but I think it was at his suggestion. —But you signed that as your evidence on oath ? I did so. I had not consulted my solicitor up to that time. The Chairman : After being sworn on that occasion why did you refuse to answer the question. That letter (the letter' marked "B," written by O'Halloran) is the answer. I think I have for four or five months undergone a punishment which few men could have withstood. The papers have branded me as a thief throughout almost ihe whole of the province of Auckland. As I have stated before, I considered the secret was nat mine to give. That man had done me a kindness, ana I did not consider it my place to betray him, and had I not received this letter I should not have uttered a word, no matter what the consequences would have been.— Did you refuse to answerthat questionbecause it might criminate yourself ? Let me understand, was the question from Major Keddell to me in the form ? Did Mr. O'Halloran or anybody else give me these rights ? It is this, when you asked me whether I met Dillon and Corbett on the morning of the opening, and whether I afterwards saw them alone in Takerei's house that morning, I must request permission to have my solicitor's advice before I anower that question. Previous to making that remark, it was, I think, the suggestion of Major Keddell that I should terminate in that way. I said, now Major Keddell I shall answer no more questions.—You had been sworn in the usual way to tell the whole truth touching the matter before the Commissioner ? You might have been and would have been justified in refusing to answer the question if it was likely to criminate yourself. I ask whether that was really the ground of your refusal ? No. I think not. I feel satisfied had it been my own transaction solely, I should have come forward months ago and made this statement in print, but I had Mr. O'Halloran's secret, and I felt in duty bound to protect him. I may say that previous to taking that oath I went to the Commissioner prepared to pay the £20 and say nothing. I was much offended at the manner in which the whole thing had been carried out. I looked upon it as very vindictive. Major Keddell and I had a long conversation before I took the oath. He begged of me to do it, saying that it might militate against me if I did not.—Your reply m my question is that you did not refuse because it would criminate yourself? I think it was more to the other balance —that it would have drawn in Mr. O'Halloran. I was dealing with some 500 or 700 natives, and it was given out at Herd's Point that I was to be arrested. Anyone who knows anything of natives will know how much that would check my business transactions. I was not in excellent temper at the time, I can assure you.—Then you refused, not because it might criminate yourself, but because it might criminate Mr. O'Halloran ? That was the principal reason; I never so thought as much of myself as of Mr. O'Halloran. To a sensitive man, I have gone through a great deal. —Were you not aware-when you made your refusal that you were violating your oath, to tell the whole truth? I made the reservation that I would only speak up to a certain point. We had a long conversation of an hour and a-half before I took the oath. Sir George Grey: "Was any arrangement made with Dillon and Corbett to meet you at Takerei's house? Smith was the prospector whom I had all the intercourse with in endeavouring to get their rights ; by rights I mean what had been promised by the former Superintendent of Auckland.—Had any arrangement been made ? Smith pointed Dillon out, whom I had not seen before, on the previous day, and said, "If you can help us in any way, I will send Dillon to your house in the morning."—You expected you would be able to help them ? I had no distinct idea of how I could help them. I had talked about their case with all the officials—with Major Keddell in Auckland, and with Captain Fraser. I went down with Captain Fraser to Grahamstown in reference to the death of Mr. Williamson, and the expiring of the delegated powers. "We had a great many conversations. He said the only way was to get a sufficient number of miners' rights to hold ground. Of course he did not say that I was to obtain them before the issue in this way. My arrangement with Mr. O'Halloran was done on the spur of the moment.—There was an arrangement with Dillon and Corbett to meet you at Takerei's house ? Yes, with Dillon. I had not any with Corbett. I understood he (Dillon) was to come to my house or Macdonald. The man who brought me the list, Macdonald, was ill—Therefore you had some hope you might bo able to assist them ? Yes. —But you had no arrangement ? No. It was entirely, accidental that you were able to fulfil the hope that you had held out to them ? It was entirely accidental that I remained at Mackaytown that night. —After giving those rights., did you go away immediately ? No ; I was stopping at Takerei's house. It was 3 o'clock before I went to bed. I had been working hard. The following day I went to Tauranga, to meet Sir D. McLean; on the 4th, I think it was. I never left Takerei's house on the 3rd. Mr. May : I think in your evidence before Major Keddell you stated that you heard Mr. Mackay and Mr. O'Halloran speaking about some lost miners' rights before you left. You said nothing about these rights ? I did not have them then. That was a packet that had been missed the night before. The rights had not been taken out of the book up to thai time.

A Western paper promises to famish a ." thrilling It's readers will probably make an oat of it. The great difference.between Lord Byron and Burns in. early'youth was that one was a Harrow hoy, and the other was a ploughboy.