PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XII, Issue 4290, 13 August 1875, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

flt.om ocr special correspondent.] Government Buildings, Wellington, Thursday, S p.m. Fitzherrep.t is getting up a great speech, Imt is determined not to speak till after Stafford. The result of the Wellington meetings and that at Parnell last night is understood to have rendered Ministers doubtful about the propriety of pushing their bills this session. This is increased by the doubtful utterances of Pyke and Gibbs. They also begin to see that even if able to force the Abolition Hill through, thev could not get the long Local Government "Hill through, and one without the other would be useless. The strong probability is that they will be content with the second reading of the llrst bill. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. [PRESS AGENCY.] Wellington, Thursday. THE ABOLITION DEBATE. The following is the continuation of last night's debate on the above question :— The House resumed at 7.30. Mr. LUCK IE addressed the House at considerable length. He ridiculed the puerile attempts of Provincial Councils to imitate Parliament*, but at the same time admitted they have performed some good work. He referred to the second Taranaki war, and paid a tribute of praise to the policy of Sir George Grey (then Governor), who advocated the very best policy regarding the dealings with natives, viz., that of temporising. Reverting to the Provincial Goveraments, he said the first blow was the new Provinces Act, the second the Consolidation of Loans, the third, and greatest of all, the Public Works Policy. He considered the old Parliament could deal with the abolition question better than the new one. Those who objected appeared to him like asking a child to perform the duty of a man. He was supported by the opinions of Disraeli, Gladstone, Todd, and others on this. Jit the Auckland province, it was true the Provincial Government had discharged its liabilities and had a balance to its credit, but at the expense of stopping all public works and merely paying departmental expenses. He deprecatrl delay in passing the Government bills. He considered nothing could be gained. He combated Grey's argument that because the average taxation was £4 12s per head, therefore the labourer with his wife and four children paid £27 per annum taxation. This was perfectly delusive, though £4 10s might be the average the poor labourer did not pay that amount. He the Upper House and its want of affinity with the people, he said he was surprised at Sir George Grey, who framed the constitution, and who therefore provided for a nominee chamber, and who himself nominated many of the present members, should now sneer at his own creation. He was surprised at Sir George | Grey's bad taste. With regard to the sup- j posed programme of the Opposition he had no objection to a property tax, especially where it affects absentees. He concluded by , saying that from his 12 years' colonial ex- I perience, he had come to the conclusion it } would be impossible to carry out their great i policy to a successful issue if subject to all j the antagonism of Provincial Governments.

Mr. Montgomery followed. He considered the bill au imperfect measure, though it contained many good provisions. He doubted the possibility of the general revenue yielding pound per pound to local Boards. If the land fund has to pay interest on loan, how would it be with the provinces having no land fund ? About this they had not suJficient information. lie did not think municipalities would have been so enthusiastic of the Government proposals if such large inducements had not been held out to them. The policy of the Government looked like a sapping of the provinces,— it was au attempt on their land fund. lie then gave a calculation tending to shew the bill was not one to meet the requirements of the outlying districts. He instanced Banks' Peninsula, which last year received £9252 from the Provincial Government, but, under the provisions of the bill, they would only have received £2000. Other Boards would be treated similarly. He concluded by saying that, while he was convinced that constitutional changes were necessary, he thought a bill of this importance should be relegated to the decision of the people. He would vote against the second reading, and, if the bill is sent to committee, would endeavour to effect amendments.

Mr. TRIBE had somewhat changed his dews since last session, but not in the same way as Mr. Wood. Last session he said he thought it sufficient for the Government to bring the Abolition Bill to the second reading, and then to let it go to the country, but since then, and from what he knew and heard of the feeling of the country generally, he was now convinced the Government would be absolutely criminal if they did not during the present session push on to completion their several measures. The country was ripe for them, and great injury would accrue to it from any longer delay. Mr. GIBBS said he would vote for a second reading, reserving the right to vote as he may deem right on what the Government.propose to substitute in their place. The abolition would be a boon to the colony, for Provincial Governments had fulfilled their destiny. From his remarks, apparently the speaker does not approve of all the provisions of the bill, but hopes it will be amended in committee. The debate was then adjourned, to be resumed on Friday, at 2.30 p.m. TAIIU-A INQUIRY. The Tairua Committe is examining witnesses under oath to-day. GOLDFIELUS COMMITTEE REPORT. The report of the Goldfields Committee was brought up and read, but Messrs. O'Conor and Mervtn pointed out that sufficient evidence had not been taken, and that the report was therefore worthless. Business is so far unimportant. CONFISCATED LANDS REGULATIONS. Sir GEORGE GREY gave notice that he would move that all Orders in Council under the Confiscated Land's Regulations which have been or may be issued since the 20th July last, shall be null and void. TAXA TION. Mr. MURRAY moved, "That as the change in tho mode of taxation from that of measurement to ad valorem duties has resulted in a very large increase to the revenue, and that as the Government, when proposing the change stated that an increase of revenue was neither intended nor required; therefore, unless the increasing necessity of the Government require this increased taxation, the House is of opinion that the duties now levied on unrefined sugar and other articles of common necessity should l>e reduced." Thehon. gentleman proceeded to shew the great difference between the burden of taxation in this colony and other countries. He hoped the Government could see its way to remit the duties now levied on refined sugar. Mr. REYNOLDS Baid the Government were hot prepared to make any change till suck time as our public works were completed and eur railways in working order. It would be impolitic to make any change in the taxation of the country. Our' liabilities were still too great. He hoped the hon. member would withdraw his motion. Mr. GEORGE McLEAN : It is of very •*kj ccnse< l uence whether the motion is withdrawn or not, as no unrefined sugar omea to the colony.

Mr. MAC-ANDREW agreed with the spirit of the motion. When ael valorem duties were imposed, the Government disclaimed any intention of increasing taxation, though tho change brought considerable increase of revenue, ne thought some steps should be taken to reduce taxation.

Sir GEORGE GREY thought the hon. gentleman deserved the thanks of the House for bringing the matter forward. Mr. O'CONOR hoped the motion would be withdrawn, and that some one would bring down a motion for reduction of taxation, but to specify the particular articles. The present duty on Hour was a disgrace to the country. Mr. McGLASHAN reminded the House that the a<l valorem duties were chiefly upon silks and other luxuries.

Mr. LUCKIE contended that the price of food in the colony as compared with the home prices was not unreasonable. It was house rent which pressed so heavily upon poor people. In our present circumstances it would be suicidal to commence decreasing our revenue. The country would want every penny it could raise for some years. Mr. J. SHEPHARD said the object of the motion appeared to be more to embarrass the Government than to benefit the poor man. Mr. REID supported the motion. Mr. ATKINSON" hoped the hon. member would withdraw his motion. The experience of the House had already shewn the danger of encouraging industries by remission of duties. Not long since the House had to pay a good round sum to remedy a false step made m that direction. He was not prepared to say that the necessities of the Government required these duties, because if they chose they could make many small reductions in the revenue without impairing the efficiency of the Government. Hut he believed that in the incomplete state of their public works it would be exceedingly unwise yet to begin increasing their revenue. Let tliem complete what they had in hand, and then consider the whole question of reduction of taxation, and the Government would bo prepared to deal with the matter in a thorough spirit. He therefore hoped the hon. member would withdraw his motion.

Mr. REEVES thought the hon. Treasurer might have told the member for Bruce that we would s o° n h ave to P a y * million a-year on our public debt. Mr. ATKINSON: More. In addition to the £150,000 we are already liable for, the Treasurer ought also to have told the hon. member there would have to be £70,000 or £SO,OOO added to that; because they would for some time be unable to obtain any rexenue from the railways. Besides, the revenue of the country had been largely due to the influx of borrowed money, and must, therefore, decrease very materially as that supply failed. He really felt sympathy for the Government, for he saw the difficulties which were overtaking them. He had reason to know it would require a million and a-half more than the Estimats to complete the railways now in hand. He could not support the motion. Mr. RICHARDSON said the hon. member was in error regarding the million and a-half to complete the lines now in hand. He could assure the hon. member that the estimates found in the Public Works Statement would be found sufficiently correct, and, unless something very unexpected happened, the Estimates would be more aj)t to lie in excess than otherwise. As to our railways not paying, take the line from Dunedin to Clutha—a company were prepared to offer the Government eight per cent, on the line if they were granted a lease of it for 21 years. Did the lion, member suppose the line between Christchurch and Timaru would not pay ? He had no hesitation in saying that as soon as open it would pay working expenses, and he would be very much surprised if it did not next year pay interest on cost of construction as well. There might be small sections that won't pay working expenses, but that won't affect the whole system, and he was sorry to see such despondency in the hon. member. There was no occasion for it,

Mr. W. KELLY said the real object of the motion appeared to be to give a backhander to the Government more than from any desire to reduce taxation. A proper question, he thought, would be to ask the peeple at the next general election whether they would prefer giving specific bonuses out of the consolidated revenue, or whether they would have reduction on taxation on articles of necessary consumption.

Mr. McGILLIYRAY thought that if it admitted of it, the Government would confer a boon upon the country by reducing the duty upon tea and sugar. Mr. BUNNY said no doubt the Government would require all the revenue they could get, probably more, and the question of the most immediate concern would soon be to alter the incidence of taxation, so as to make those contribute to the maintenance of order and good government whose properties had been increased in value double and threefold. At present all their revenue was derived from the middle and working classes.

Mr. MURRAY, rcplyiug, said the New Zealand people were taxed twice as much as any other people in the world ; and no wonder, therefore, we had a difficulty in inducing immigrants to come to the colony, unless by giving free passages. It was a wretched commentary upon the success of our great policy, that year after year the necessities of Government became greater, and the taxation was correspondingly increased. If taxation was not necessary, he would prefer seeing every pound fructify in the pockets of ratepayers, than be returned to them in the shape of an eleemosynary dole of five shillings. The motion was then withdrawn.

TARANAKIAND WAIKATO RAILWAY LINE. Mr. J. KELLY moved for the report of the survey exploring party sent out by the Provincial Government of Taranaki to find a suitable route for the line of railway to the Waikato district. The result was that a large tract of fine country was fouud to the north-east of Mount Egmout, and not occuEied by the natives. In a short time all this eautiful tract of land must necessarily come into tho possession of the Government, and he was therefore desirous that all should be known about it that was possible. Sir DONALD McLEAN said it was of great importance that the road should be explored. The Government had already sent surveyors from the other side down to the the Mokau River, and only 25 miles now ro! mained unexplored between the two explorations, and they would take early opportunity of making it. He would like all the papers on the table, and would move that they be printed. THE LAND FUND. Mr. WOOD moved for a return, shewing the estimated amount of land fund to be received within each Provincial District for a period from November 1, 1875, to June 30, 1870, together with the estimated amount to be raised in and by the issue of Treasury bills, under the provisions of section 17 of the Abolition of the Provinces Act. Also the estimated amount for each Provincial District chargeable against the land fund by sub-sections 1, 2, and 3 of section 10 of the said Act, together with the estimated amount for departmental services, for local public works and education proposed to be charged against the land fund Dy the Financial Statement. The balance between these estimated receipts and charges to be struck. Mr. ATKINSON said the Government had no objections to lay all possible information on tho table. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL EXPLANATION. The COLONIAL TREASURER would take the opportunity of making a statement regarding the position of the land fund, as it was reported the Government were going to take the land fund away from local Boards. If the House continued the present arrangement, the provinces would receive from the consolidated fund about £227,000. They would also receive from their own local revenues £50,000, and from further local revenue a sum of £71,000, making a total of £348,000. Under the arrangement proposed by the Government they will receive for Provincial ieryices taken over by the General Government £345,000, and for grants for Road Boards and Municipalities

£105,000. They would also receive for local public works £60,00©'; that ia to say, the provinces would receive from the consolidated revenue a total sum. of £510,000. The result of the change will be that under the proposed arrangements the provinces will receive £91,000 more than if the present arrangements continued, and! the whole land fund they had to dispose of would be available to be spent in the localities possessed of any. Mr. REID: Where does that £91,000 come from ?

Mr. ATKINSON would refer the hon. gentleman for full details to page 19 of the Financial Statement.

Mr. WOOD explained that he made the motion solely with the object of having all the financial information obtainable before any debate took place on the iinances. He could not help calling the attention of the House to the fact that the Treasurer told them they were to pay the provinces £.'!48,000 for Provincial s rvices. If this was the way Provincialism was to be abolished, this way of doing it was not a boon but a curso to the colony. The House rose at 5.30.