PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XII, Issue 4288, 11 August 1875, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES [PRESS AOENCY.] iFTEEXOOX SITTING. "Wellington", Tuesday, 7.40 p.m. PRELIMINARY BUSINESS. Sir DosiU) MoLkan read a long statement regarding the land purchases in the \ f ,rth Island. * ° After this statement, Mr. Macandrew asked what steps had been taken to fill n D the seat for Caverehatii, made vacant by th* sudden death of Mr. Tolmie. Sir Donald thought it would only be considerate to his relations not to take st<;pa t. rill the seat until after the funeral of the rC ceased.

READING MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS. Mr. Header Wood referred to a fact of two Ministerial statements having bef -. \ to the House. This practice, li% saiil was contrary to the accustomed usages of Parliament ; and if Ministers were to make these statements from printed papers, members should be allowed to read their speeches. At one time members made their statements rira voce, and shewed the House they knew what they were talking about. How were they to know th:it th c statements were not compiled by clerks* How could the House feel certain that members had their subjects in hand, or were at all masters of the details they were reading about ? Mr. Itollestoa also commented upon the unparliamentary nature of the practice daily growing up, and deprecated its continuance. The Speaker explained that in some Ministerial statements it was more convenieut for members, aud it assisted iu furthering the business, that statements involving the most varied and minute details should"be printed, but it did not, therefore, follow that members should be allowed to read their speeches. Sir George Grey said the question ap. peared to him to be, were they to have a Ministry of great men, or merely a Ministry of clerks? Were they to have Ministers ! who could shew the House that they really controlled the departments they represented, ■ or were they to be merely the talking-birds of the clerks of the Government departments? The statement just read was a bare report, and nothing more. In the British House of Commans, Minister after i Minister dare not rise np and read their statements, and were we to be unworthy of : our sires ? The Financial Statement was I nothing more than a compilation of figures, and he questioned whether the Colonial Treasurer knew anything about what was I put into his hands to read. He hoped the i House would not permit such a system tj I prevail any longer. It was opposed to ail i parliamentary precedent and was cot con- | ducive to the efficiency and elevation of i parliamentary government. i Mr. Atkinson repelled the insinuations j regarding the preparation of the Financial • Statement, which, he said, had been solely j his own work, and had cost a great deal lof labour. Of course, he had to acknowI ledge the assistance of the officers of the ■ Treasury ; but what were they there for but • to post Ministers up in the information! I Notwithstanding the uncalled-for insinua- ! tions thrown out against Ministers not being 1 acquainted with the affairs of the country, 1 he could assure hon. members opposite that, i speaking for himself—and he regretted to be ! compelled to speak in that strain—he was j not afraid to "fix" any of the hon. members opposite, and he felt sure that his col- : leagues were of the same opinion as himself, and were quite prepared to be judged ! by their acts. The sooner hon. members ! put them to the test the better. i Mr. Luckie pointed out that the docu- ' ruent read by the Native Minister bristled '■ with figures regarding lands bought, leased, ' and under negotiation in different pa; U of . j the northern province, and he cared not :• whether the Minister who dealt with sacb ; complicated statements was qualified to ! adorn St. Stephen's or not; it was necessary i that such figures should be laid fully and ' clearly before the House, and that could no: ! properly be done unless by printed docu- ■ ment. The hon. member then proceeded to ' refer to what the member for Auckland City ■ West had done in another place, by reading : ' from a printed document a statement a great : \ deal simpler than that made by the Native j Minister.

Mr. Reynolds explained that, as far as his marine statement was concerned, he had read it because the wish of the House last session was that he should do so. He conM, however, assure hon. members that, if they chose to go into marine and other matters dealt with, they would rind that he was well up to that work. Mr. Kelly saw no objection whatever to printing and reading these statements, a? they were merely departmental reports. The subject then dropped. CAVERSHASI SEAT. On the motion of Mr. Macandrew, a writ for the election for Caversham was ordered to be issued immediately. OFFICIAL BAY. Mr. Swanson asked whether the Government intended to enable the residents in Auckland City East to have access to the harbour, which they were recently deprived of by the reclamation in Official Bay ? Mr. Richardson said the Government h*l the matter under consideration, but as a legal question had been raised in the matter the Government could express no opinion as yet as to the re-erection of Wynyad Pier. He hoped some arrangement would be come to to facilitate the landing of goods. RAILWAY MATTERS. Mr. Murray asked Ministers whether they would this session introduce a general measure to facilitate a construction of railways by local or private enterprise ? Mr. Richardson said the Government had realised the necessity for such a bill, and would be in a position to introduce one in a few days. (Hear, hear.) 1 RETTRX OF RATEABLE PROPERTY. Mr. Montgomery asked for the latest return in the possession of the Government shewing the annual value of rateable pre-, perty in each road district and municipality in the colony. It was highly desirable that hon. members should be possessed of this information to enable them to form a better opinion upon the question of abolition. Mr. Atkinson said he would obtain the information and lay it upon the table. ELECTION OF MAYOR OF ArCKLAND. Mr. Sheehan gave notice to a:-k leave to introduce a bill to enable the Mayor of Auckland " to be elected by the ratepayers.''

BILLS. Leave was given to introduce the following bills, which were read a first time : —'Vg Bill for Securing the Copyright of Press Tel*, grains (Harrison"), Bill for the Relief of Debtors and for the Better Security of Creditors. Bill for the Punishment of Fraudulent Debtors, and Bill to Amend Bills of Sale Act, ISoT (Bowen).

STAMP DITTIES JILT. Mr. Bowen made a statement regarding stamp duties, to the effect that, in consequence of the complicated state of the law tor stamp duties, the Covemment had deemed it necessary to appoint a commissioner to inquire into these duties. Their report followed this inquiry, and the result was this bill, which is based on the English Stamp Duties Act and Stamp Duties Management Act, passed in IS7O. These two Acts had been incorporated into one, and while such modifications had been made as were necessary to suit the somewhat different machinery and different scale of taxation in force in the colony, the -wording of the English Acts has been preserved so far as possiMe in order to render decisions of the English Courts of use in the interpretation and administration oi the law in this colony. There are no alterations of scale of duties now in force, escep. m'tases vrhere the existing law is oi doubiful meaning, or where inconsistency appear* to Have crept "in, "owing to several Act? having been passed at different times. Toe one exception to this appears in the introduction of mortgages into the schedule as ■■* source of revenue. One departure from we law of England is that when a person bn»S»

of the preper duty, but only V instrument such duty as tnc P cn, , Bought in r °\ S T m pod » rendered unment.nS«<ncl cntl J sW of oTthe one fend the Crown loses part of its just ciaun, t ; court, and on the ot U her g J Jo»U™ raised a. to the validity or futility of an instrument affecting private nVhts, which may only come to light at a remote period, and may ~os SI bly become the occasion of future litigation. The 1..1 has Wen so worded that proper duties shall be a«sr«sed bv the Stamp Oilier, subject to an 'appeal to the Supreme Court, and that an instrument stamped with a Commissioners stamp "hall he available in law, whether the ri-ht dutv thereon has been paid or not. In respec' to duties on the estates of debased persns, the Board recommend a fundamental change in the present law of succession. lx-gaev and residuary duties are eluded to an immense extent 111 this colony, notwithstanding a large and complicated system of registration and liook-keeping which have ben elaborated for the.r collection. The main cause lor this loss of revenue lies in the lon- tune allowed to elapse before accounts of estates ot deceased ..ereous are woundup, and by the fluctuating nature of the population, which enables persous to realise their estates ami disappear IK-vond this trace of the Stamp Othcc. Therefore no duties on these estates can be successfully collected unless the payment is required before the issue of administration. This is the principle on which the Act ol the colony of Victoria is based, and it is incorporated into the bill submitted. The duties are -regarded as a debt due by the deceased to the Crown, and are made payable out of the estate before all other debts or claims. The share of the duties borne by the several persons to whom the property descends is settled bv the administrator in the distribution of the estate. It is worth while pointing -out, in evidence of the great simplification of which the law was capable, that fifteen clauses have been sutiieient to deal with a subject which occupied eighty-seven clauses of the Act of ISGO. The Hoard recommend that probate legacy succession and residuary duties be abandoned and replaced by one duty on the estates of deceased persons. As regards the amount of this duty, it has teen attempted to accommodate in one table the twe,principles expressed in tic Xew /calami and the Victorian laws. By the former the rate of duty is made to depend on the relationship of "the person from whom the property desceuds. By the la'ttr the rate depends solely on the amount if the property, without regard to relationship, except that wido-vs and children pay only half duty. The schedule submitted relieves widows, as at present, from all duty, and charges the direct descendants ami strangers iu blood with a- uniform duty nearly "the same as at present, without respect to the amount of property and charges, and persons of the intermediate degrees of consanguinity, in proportion both to the amount of property and to relationship to the deceased. Mr.ißunny hoped the Government would see their- way clear to cut out the clauses re-ferring-to mortgages. They should begin to lookaor raising their taxes from the wealth of the country. In other respects the bill was a.great improvement. Mr. Sheehan said : In the face of our rapid!;-•increasing revenue we should not seek -out fresh sources of revenue, though that seemed to be a weakness of most Governments. In other respects he would support the Government to carry the bill thronghithe House. Mr. T.L. Shepherd did not see that the taxes objected to pressed at all unduly upon poor people. It was a decided improvement upon tue old Acts. Mr. J.-Shepherd trusted the Government would etieise the. clauses as recommended.

Mr. Tribe fully agreed with the member for Wstacapa. The clauses he referred to were very' Objectionable. Mr. Murray said they should be very careful how Shey imposed fresh taxation while their necessities did not require it. If, however, they .desired to go in that direction, they should le%-y upon the wealth of the country. Mr. Huns-er said he understood that while they might alarm-the desirability of consolidating variousssamplawsthey mightdeny the mode of taxation proposed. There was one thing he inest point out. Xo cause had been made out to justify increased taxation. Mr. Luckie-said one great beauty of the Act wa3 the duty upon mortgages. The hon. member jiroceeded to point out why it was more deairable to tax mortgages than promissory notes. It was one of the weakest arguments thst could be used to say you were taxing necessities of people in taxing mortgages. A lax on promissory nute3 and bills of exchange was really more a tax upon the necessities of the people than that upon mortgages. Although he must take exception to charges on places of emoluments in municipal bodies .and incorporated bodies, he held that on the whole the bill was an exceedingly good otxe. Mr. May combatiud the views of the preceding speaker, and said he would certainly vote against stamps upon mortgages. Mr. J. E. Brown regretted that in framing this bill the Govertunc-ut had not confined itself simply to the work of consolidation. He ventured to say that by issuing five different kinds of stamps nothing but confusion and annoyance was created, especially in th-2 country districts, and he for one could not see due fairness or the necessity for such a. practice. Why not make one kind of stamp do for all kinds of documents ? Xor could he sec why one class of company should be taxed, and not another.

Mr.; Montgomery and Mr. W. Kelly each opposed the stamp on mortgage bonds.

Mr. Cwanson said the practice of raising taxes by : stamps was simply -raising moneys out of tiiS necessities of tie people and allowing ■• luxuries to go free. He recommended felimit to be fixed, sc-that under a certain account mortgage doeds would not be taxed.

Mr. Bowen said what had fallen from the hon. members shewed that in the main the bill was approved of. The Goverxinent was ■quite in accird with the House, and quite prepared to,-carry out their suggestions in Committee ic : the small details referred to. The bill v/6L. ordered to be read the second time that day *.-eek. The House iscsc at 5.30.

E V E X u X G SITTING. ,ADJOURNEE> iBSBATE OX ABOUTION QUESTION. .On the House xctuniing .it 7.30 o'clock the .gjUerief ~i"r«." all d<zsely crowded. rtiir Grey }£iose amid cousiieEtble applause. He coniuiiiiced by announcing that this was a very great occasion,—one withwhich all should acquaint them.iclT.es as as possible. It was an occasion on vrbict all should aoquaUt themselves well, as it jc possible it was aa occasion on which the Government were absut to sweep away a Constitution by illegal and unconstitutional aaeins. (Dissent.) To clear away all doubt*, he would say ire ihirfre been termed Provineialuis, but they •were really upholders of ; fc great and roognj/icent edifice, which was iiiing thrown do-wu And scattered about the jjiouud—a coiuurn Jiere and a pillar there That was au inline of provincialism. Ac. present that grand building must cither be restored to its pristine vigour and beauty, or else it must crumblo away. Two eloquent spaeches on hit side of the ■question had beeu uiade on the Government coaches, one by iiie Treasurer aud the other by the guide and pioteetor of the Ministry, the memberfcrTimaru. (Laughter.) The Ji.jii. gentleman then proceeded to relate the history of grwiting the Hint Constitution to Xew Zealand, which was at a period \jrfctn the savage enemy was clone to the present site of Wangauui. Upon his ■sole-responsibility, and without counsel or •advice, he took upon himaelf. %*Uat.fewjneui would have don*, and sent hom« baek thati Constitution and all the documents connected' with it, and then they got their second Constitution. Thure was not a single cl&utc in Constitution that he did uot ponder and

brood over, and he took counssi from friends and foes alike. He dared not. in the interest of the people of New Zealand, divulge his plans—the result of his earnest consideration—but having, after due deliberation, and great care, decided upon his plans, he sent them home ; and he made bold to say that all and each of them were endorsed and approved of at home with but trivial alterations. Let him compare the confidence he then exhibited with that disylaycd by the persons now subverting this Constitution Let him look on the Opposition benches, and j lie saw men whom any man might be promt , to call colleagues, and who ho ventured, to sav would never have landed them in such a position as the prcseut men at the head ot, Government had done. These men who, after having been buffeted on one cheek, turned the other to be buffeted also. He had been taunted about the power placed in the hands of half a-dozen lishing villages, but look what these lishing villages had become ; how, like heroes, they had sprung tip to the spur applied to them. Look at the roads with which tlicy had ramified the country, often against an armed foe ; look at their great public works and thriving towns, their mountains pierced ; look at more thanhe could enumerate of iudustry and enterprise, and say hrd he unwisely erred, iu entrusting the people of Wellington, Otago, and Auckland to work out their own design? He had been twitted with having prepared the Constitution in a cottage, but he appealed to that same Consti tution, and would ask them by what right had the country been defrauded of the rights secured to them by that Constitution ? Though prepared in a cottage, look at what had arisen under it; look at the hall iu which they now stood. Had anything ever proceeded out of that House equal to what had proceeded from the Constitution ? The Treasurer had told them he might have repealed the second section of the Constitution Act ; but he could inform that hon. gentleman that he (Sir George) had issued a proclamation a few years after the passing of the Constitution Act that repealed that section, and yet in the face of that Ministers offered to introduce a elauseinto the Abolition Act repealing that section. He thought ho then heard a school-boy speak. He, however, would accept that offer, and allow it to go down to all time as a stamp of those who made it. Continuing on the illegality of the course proposed by the Government, he would say what he had said before. The Government having once given rights to the people could not take one iota away from them. The hon. member forTimaru in contradiction of this, reminded him of the case of Jamaica, and intimated that he had kept the fact from the House, but he was fearful that memory and reason had taken flight from the hon. member for Timaru. If the Imperial Parliament took away one Constitution from Jamaica it gave them another ono better adapted to the exigencies of their society. Referring to the opinion of the Attorney-General, the present Chief Justice, which Government sought to fortify their action by, he told the House and Government that such a spectacle should never have been seen as the Chief Justice addressing st, letter to the Minister of Justice beginning " My dear Bowen," or my dear anythingelse. What he should have said when asked for his opinion, was, " You have had my opinion as Attorney-General; if you want it as Chief Justice, you must get it on the Bench of Justice, and in a proper constitutional way. They were told Parliament always contemplated abolition by its action regarding Westland Act, but he did not believe that, and so great was his confidence in.the Courts of Justice in this couutry that he believed they would one day see the Attorney-General giving one opinion, and the Chief Justice another totally different. Grave Constitutional questions would naturally arise out of a case of that kind, and it would lie ruled by judges that the charters of the provinces were charters of liberties. Turning to another phase of the case, he maintained, with all possible deference, that the name of His Kxeellency should not have been coupled with a measure which was an outrageous breach of the maxim that Government should never take away the liberties of the people in the smallest degree. He could not but raise a protest against such an unlawful and unconstitutional proceeding as selling the Constitution by the number of hands held up at .public meetings for the unlawful bribes held out for the people. Instead of this, why not refer the matter to the Superintendents, who were elected by large bodies of people ? And who were those most bent on carrying this measure but the neglected of the people—such men as the Premier of the colony, who stood for the Superiutendeucy of Auckland, and had to retire, like a snail, within his shell '! The same with the Colonial Treasurer, who was also rejected by that which he would destroy. Looking round that House he found in it a glorification of the Provincial system. There were men present who would have been great in the annals of any country—men who, in the Provincial Council paid more minute and careful attention to expenditure than was ever seen in that Uou6e. (No, no!) I say yes. Tell me not such a tale. He would ask, what became of the £300,000 for purchasing land ? Where were the particulars regarding tlmt expenditure? where the private estates amassed, the fees, the rewards ? Why, he had seen one item alone of £95,000 paid for services rendered for the sale of debentures. To whom was that paid ? Yet the Treasurer had the bad taste to deal with such a questiou, by quoting to the House from a book called, "Pig Philosophy," an extract couched in a vulgar phrase, unworthy of that House. This was, a great occasion,—the greatest perhaps, that ever would be seen iu the annals of the ■country, and he hoped, speaking of that other branch of the Legislature, that if it vras true to its duties and allegiance to the Queen, they would never consent to such illegal and unconstitutional sweeping away of the people's rights. Coming to the financial part of the scheme, the Treasurer toW them there would be a deficiency on the present year. Two distinct statements regarding the revenue had been made, and ihe could accept v/liich he liked, but fche latter he considered the true one, namely, that there was a deficiency, but utdcr the present system of accountkeepintit was easy to make any surplus you pleased! Charging Constabulary cottages, and one .thing and another against loans, enabled ihem to carry on a surplus from one year's end .to another. It was not an exception, he .maintained, and it would be found there would be a great deficiency; that, in fact, the eolcny was a lump of debt from one end to the other. What must be the result of this? Thccolouy would soon find that it had been deluded, and that those deluding bribes held out to them would never reach them, because it ivas not in the funds ol the colony to pay. Had a real politician and able man declared the financial statement, they might have .expected a plan shewing care and consideration to relieve the burdens of the people, but they had more tares looming out before tliem. No ; instead of that they Lad i. perpetuation of the [monstrous aud abhorKeut system which liad eow been going on fcr years. Look how: tLey proposed to treat tie miners—the real pioaeers of the colony. In some respects shcea were the pioneers itco in clearing away native growth. Well, tiie Government looked at miners and others in the same light at only fit to be shorn—although already shorn too closely. lie would boldly say that the real meaning of the Government measures was the tyranny of class legislation. He bad been "accused of endeavouring to create a .democracy, but he had endeavoured to create a healthy and intelligent opinion. Well, look what they had now, aud what they might have had had a different -course been adopted, instead of the delusive and fatal course they had been pursuing. : They might liave had people inste*dj of sheep, smiling homesteads audi happy families, and; wajl-cjjltivated farms, i instead " of ' thousands ' of 'acres owned' by one person. They might have had a numerous, happy, aud contented comma- • nity, able to support themselves within themselves, without borrowed millions and

excessively highly-salaried officials. No, they preferred, with a monkey-like spirit of mischief, to destroy what they could not create, to promise what they could not fulfil. Well, it was for these reasons he asked for some delay ; a delay reasonable, equitable, and absolutely necessary. Let them but grant this most just request, and they might stay the mischief and the calamitous consequences which must necessarily arise from their present unseemly haste. (Loud applause.)

Sir Donald McLean said that not even the most ardent Provincialist ever imagined provinces were to bo a permanency. The provinces resulted in an angry contest for power. The Assembly should have defined the powers of the provinces, and the colony had been kept in a constant state of conflict through this not being done. Sir George Grey had told the Assembly they had no power to take the action they proposed. But they had the authority of the people. (Loud cheers.) The demand for abolition came with overwhelming force from the country. (Renewed cheers.) Provincial Institutions must disappear, to give place to local self-government The people will have a potent voice in the management of their own affairs ; and it was ridiculous to suppose that a settlement of the question was created by Sir George Grey's action in framing the Constitution. The natural hardihood and energy of the people of Otago and Canterbury alone induced the present results. He admitted that a great deal had been done by the provinces in the early stages ; but when the Assembly took up colonisation the end of the provinces was near. The consolidation of the loans was another great blow. There was really nothing now for any of the provinces to do. When the provinces were in such a condition as Auckland admittedly was, it was better the provinces should cease to exist. The sweeping away would be complying with public opinion, which would make itself felt at one end or the other. He reiterated the statement that a true and correct statement of the finances of the colony had been made, which the Opposition would have yet to admit. Was it to be supposed that the people were not to be consulted? Were public meetings no criterion at all of public feeling. He defended Dr. Pollen, and said his 25 years' devotion to the affairs of the colony deserved more respect. Ho also referred to Mr. Atkinson's previous experience as a Minister, and said that Mr. Bowen, though young and new to official life, gave every promise of making a useful Minister, and of making his name. Referring to Grey's attack in reference to the Chief Justice, he denied that the latter had ever been asked to give his opinion. With reference to the credit of the colony, nothing would more greatly enhance its stability than the abolition of the provinces, and the creation of one united colony, -doing away with the fragmentary divisions, for which uo necessity existed ; and that would be suro to result The provinces were always regarded by statesmen at home as extended municipalities. The Government proposals were clear and commendable, and did not in any way pander to public sympathies. He was sorry to find an attempt made now to introduce class legislation. The Government proposals recognised no class; they regarded all equally. (Cheers.)

Mr. Wood was received with loud Opposition cheers. He would not attempt to follow the last two speakers, as to tho wisdom of the introduction of the original Constitution, as it had nothing to do with the present question. The legality of the course pursuod had not bceu exhausted, although it had been treated with extraordinary ability by Sir George Grey, and the very opposite by Ministers. Unless it was shewn they are acting within the four corners of the Constitution and Acts dependent cm it, they were simply wasting time. Ministers and their supporters misinterpreted the AttorneyGeneral's opinion. Every member must think that on the face of tho AttorneyGeneral's advice, it was culpable neglect on the part of a Government not to take his advice. He quoted Yillicr's opinion as to the power of the Assembly to deal with the question, and referred to the past attempts to alter the Constitution, which attempts were invariably followed by legislation to set at rest doubts which each attempt called into existence. 'Son; more than ever, would it be found that euch doubts existed. The Government proposals were bribes to support theeeutiesof population at the expense of the country. With regard to the question of abolition, pure and simple, his duty was very clear. If in tho smallest degree the bill represented his views, it was a duty for him to Vote for abolition. But its finances were so largely mixed up with the finances of the colony, aud had so little connection with abolition, that he must vote against it. It must be admitted by the public at large and the House, thai the provinces had totally failed to carry out their original intentions. If they wanted to find a " financial scandal" they need not go so far as Auckland. They could liud that nearer home. Kxactly opposite was the case in Auckland. It was that of a good man struggling with adversity. He admitted that there was for a few months a little derangement of Auckland's finances, owing to the Superintendent's death. But the Auckland Government after the interregnum astonished the people by telling them the truth. They then drew in tho reigns, and resisted all pressure. And now what was the case—actually credit at the Bank. The Colonial Treasurer knew nothing about it except from the newspapers. Was the province to be held up as a scandal when in its finances it had cut its coat according to its cloth, and acted like an honest man should act. Supposing the province had been unable to pay, whose fault was it? The fault of the Assembly, for reducing its Customs revenue first from five eighths to three-eighths, aud then its action with regard to the capitation grant, which the Assembly gradually reduced to lf»s. HehadtoldtheSouthernmembersthat, if.they allowed tho bill to pass,— that if they once allowed the Government of the country to get their hands upon their land fund, as surely as Auckland's share of the Customs receuue had vanished, so sure would their land fund be swept into the Maelstrom of colonial finance. The Abolition Bill abolished nothing but Provincial Councils. Why not vote on the estimates subsidies to Koad Boards and Municipalities, and leave the question till next year, when all doubts might be settled ? With reference to the question of abolition—

[Mr. Wood was still sneaking when the telegraph office closed, at 10 p.m.]