THE OHINEMURI QUESTION.

New Zealand Herald, Volume VII, Issue 1900, 17 February 1870, Page 6

THE OHINEMURI QUESTION.

i • ? DEPUTATION" TO THE SUPERINTEN- ] DENT AJND THE NATIVE MIN- > ISTER. I Yesterday morning a deputation, consisting ; of the following gentlemen, waited upon his Honor the Superintendent at the Provincial . Government offices, with reference to. the ' opening of the Ohinemuri and the alleviation of (he destitution at present oxisting on the .• Thames goldfield :—Messrs. C M. Ollivier and William Hawkes; $Mr. D. Grove, M.P.C. for the Thames, accompanying them to reniler any assistance in his power. j The deputation were introduced to his ; Honor tho Superintendent by Mr. D. Grove, j Mr Ollivier explained to his Honor that ■ they had. been appointed a deputation by public meetings at Grahamstown and at Ohinemuri, to present a petition to his Excellency the Governor from the unemployed . miners at the Thames goldfield. | Mr. Hawkes said the deputation had 1 deemed it advisable, in tho first instar.ee, to i communicate with his Honor the Superinten , dent, in order that he might urgo upon his • Excellency the Governor the necessity of exi ercising all the influence at his command in : order to have Ohinemuri opened, and nls > to relieve the great distress at present existing ■ upon tho field. The following is a copy of the petition re- • ferred to :— i" To his Excellency Sir George Bowen, | " Governor of Now Zealand. ; " We, the miners of the Thames district, | pray that your Excellency will deem it expedient lo so far reserve the country of the ; Upper Thames to the use of the working : miner,, by ; adopting tho most stringent ! measures, possible, with a view to prevent • speculators and others from acquiring the glands, by lease or otherwise, from the natives, .■ to the ultimate detriment of tho working, miner and the c untry at large. Wo further pray tliac your Excellency /will notr .hesitate, should such a measure prove necessary for tho preserving of the lands , for the use of tho miners, even to suspend, so far as the Upper Thames is concerned, all those Acts that enable the natives to dispose of their lands. Your petitioners further pray that your Excellency and responsible adviser*, knowing as they o the enormous amount of real distress that exists amongst the mining community, will leave no effort untried thut mav open the Upper Thames to the industry of the miner. Should such steps not be taken to attain the immediate opening of the country, your petitioners, viewing with alarm the amount of distress that exists, and the inability of those willing to obtain work, fear that the iniuers will themselves take action towards the opening of the country, by dealing directly with the natives. Your. petitioners j would further direct your Excellency's attention to the fact that a large majority of the ! native landholders are willing to open their country to tho miner for the purpose of goldmining. " And your petitioners will over pray." Mr. Gillies said he had been looking over the petition, and he had seen in the report of a meeting held at the Thames on Saturday, a statement that he was opposed to the opening of Ohinamuri 5 and that in some way or other he had thrown obstacles in the way of opening the district. He wished, on the contrary, to point out to the deputation, that he had waited time after time upon the Hon. Mr. McLean, and had urjed upon;him the necessity of taking immediate step's . to open the district. He would just read the correspondence which had passed between himself and Mr. McLean on the subject.—Mr. Gillies then read the following correspondence :— '^jreneralGovernment Offices, -W "]■" Auckland, February 8, 1870. ' " :;pfiiSe'cating the negotiations with of laud at Ohinemuri for the op'enirig of the district as a goldfielJ, it has been'.found that the large number who are disposed to give up their lands desire at once 'to receive a - money paymeriVas ~a.n advance" ottaceount of the future receipts of fees i on miners' viglits. and that the sum required will be about-five thousand pounds. . "It is right that your Honor should be informed that it is not expected that the pay-, ment of this sum will operate at once in overcoming the opposition of the party which has persistently set itself agaihst'.the' openingof the district," but it may J have the effect of maintaining in their present disposition arid oif stimulating' to greater exertion those who have been friendly and who are willing to. give Tip their lands; and lam informed that this ipayment will probably be found necessary to effect these objects " It will'be for the Provincial Government to consider whether or not it is prudent to make this advance in tho present condition of the* negotiations, and upon thi3 point I shall be glad to be. favoured with your Honor's opinion.—Thave, &c.,

' ' ' • • ' "Boxaid MCLe-IX..'* " His Honor tho Superintendent, "Auckland."

7: Superintendent's Office, "Auckland, 9th February, 1870.

" Sir, —I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of yesterday's date, relative to. an advanco of money to the natives, in anticipation of the opening of Ohinemuri. I am. prepared at once to provide the sum of £5000, or any other sum necessary, to effect the :■ immediate opening .of Oliinemuri, but until the negotiations show some signs of success, and are put into some tangible shape as to terms, it does not appear to mo prudent to make any advances to the friendly natives, who appear to be unable to open their own lands without the eons in t of their opponents. Nor do I think it would be wise to arrange wit.li tho natives on the basis of their receiving fees on mining rights, &c., as at Shortland, which has raised so many questions of difficulty between both Europeans and natives. I would suggest dea'ing with them for a lease of their lands (subject to reserves), at 'a fixed rental, to cover all mining and surface rights for a period of twenty years or upwards. The country could thus be opened up not only for mining but for settlement, which, from the gold bearing capabilities of the country being yet niiprospeoted, would be the only tale way of dealing with tho matter. I desire very earnestly to urge upon you the importance of prompt and energetic action in ch& mat ter, otherwise serious cod sequences may ensue. If you see no immediate prospect of ovcreoiu ing by your negotiations the opposition of the King party, I would respectfully request you to permit me to undertake such negotiations as I might think proper to adopt, in order to accomplish tho end in in view. It may app.>ar ulmost presumptuous in me to hope to succeed in a matter in which .your agents have been so long unsuccessful; but I am unwilling to leave any stone nnturncd which might possibly result in opening that country speedily.— I am, &e., " Thomas B. GILLIE 3, " Superintendent. " The Hon. the Minister " for Native Affairs, Aucklaud." Mr. Hawkes said tho report }»ud originated from a false statement, published in an Auckland newspaper oj Friday last, in which it. was alleged that, the Superintendent had positively refused to agree to Mr. McLean's proposals for the opening of the district; and tho minora were consequently undor the impression that Mr. Gillies was opposed to tho opening of Ohinemuri. After the correspondence that h:id been read, there was no doubt that tho statement that, had. been published in. the Morning Advertiser ma a> gross libel upop his Honor the Superintendent, who, so far from haying obstructed the opening of Ohinemuri, had done his utmost to have tho district thrown open. Mr. Gillies said he was anxious to w see the statement. "What. paper was it in ? . . > f[r. Ollitieb : ,In the Morning Advertiser aturday. He wished to impress upon bis

Honor that'the pre-ent deputation was oil-. t.; V plv independent of the meeting held on Siturday. ■Air. niLTiiKS said tho General Government authorities were as much opposed to monopoly of the land by speculators us were the miners themselves; and tho Government therefore proposed t'> make certain reservations in tho Crown grants bo issued to the natives, whii'h it was believed would have tho effect of preventing such a thing. Mr. Gillies liere called the messenger, and requested hiai -to bring a copy of the Morning Advertiser of Friday."' The Messenger: Your Honor, there is no copy of that date. They do not com eat all regu'ar but lam making a file.of them such as they are. Mr Gillif.s : Never mind it, I may explain that iu order to facilitate the opening of the district as much as possible, Mr. McLean has arrnnged that the Land Court should git at Ohinemuri, and that in all certificates that may be granted, the right of gold mining will be reserved. As to another portion of tho petition, the miners svould simply destroy all hope of the district ever being opened if they attempted to take the law into their own hands.

Mr. Olliviek said tho minors would suppoi t the Government if possible, and lie asked that allowance should be made.

Mr. Gillies said the Government were ready to make every possible allowance under tho circumstances.

Mi*. Ollivier said as there appeared to be no chance of tho district being immediately opened, it was desirable that some steps should bn taken to relievo t'io distress at present existing in Grahamstown and Shortland. It was not the distress simply of ten or twenty, but of thousands. Hundreds of men were subsisting on one or two email loaves a week. It was because the miners were in this state that they wore disinclined to listen to explanation. Mr. Gillies said the Provincial Government had been making inquiries with tho view of seeing what could be done to relieve the distress. (Mr. Gillies referred at length to several modes of employing the unemployed miners.)

Mr. Hawkes thought the men might be advantageously employed iu cutting bush tracks. It would open up new country ; and as to the difficulty of getting up provisions, the storekeepers would see to that if there w re a sufficient number of men to pay them to do so.

Mr. Gillies said it must be borne in mind that the Pr vincial Government had not sufficient funds to provide such employment, as would give wages, but simply such as would be equivalent to rations. Mr. Ollivier said the Native Minister had promised the miners that the Ohinemuri district would be open within three months, but though more than that period had passed, the promise remained unfulfilled. That promise. therefore, had caused a great many men to remain in the district in expectation of the speedy opening of the land. Mr. Gillies said Mr. McLean believed tho prospects <-f the opening of the land had recently improved.

Mr. Gbove inquired how far the Provincial Government was prepared to afford employment.

Mr. Gillies said it would be necessary to employ the unemployed miners upon some work that would serve as a test, but they could not be employed upon any permanent work, such as the reclamation of the beach, as had been suggested, because the miners so soon as their prospects improved, would very properly leave the work, and thus the labour expended in any public work would be -liable to be wasted.

Mr. Hawk fa suggested that if tho license fee at present charged for cutting timber were removed a great many men would probably find employment in cutting timber. To find money to pay the license under present circumstances was as difficult- es to leave the province. Mr. Gillies said the license could not he legally remitted, as it was charged under the agreement made with the natives by Mr. Mockay. ■ vj-

Mr. Hawses thought theliccnaefeo a great injustice. •' '"' ' Mr; Olitvieii inquired whether it -would bo possible to employ the unemployed miners in catting flax, which might be sent home in the leaf > . "*Mr; GnxiES said .flax sent home in the leaf would b*e perfectly worthless at home. • '* : There was a sum of £30,000 voted last session for the opening up of roads in the interior through native lands. Do yori think Mr. Meljean. could manage to appropriate, a few tliousands of that money for the purpose of employing the miners, say between the Upper Tharneß aild Taupo'Lake. It is' absolutely necessary that immediate relief should be given, becauso if - the miners kn-'W that Ohinemuri would riot be opened within a period of three months, a : great many of tliem would petition Victoria' or the Pr vincial Government of Otago and- other places on the West Coast for some slightassistance to remove them and their families, iu many cases ba-:k to the places they left to enmo here. Tliere were many • • plucea , in Ot >go whpre it man could make more than a living out of the alluvial patches. Mr. Oillifs said he did not know whether or' not' the General Government would feel itself authorised to expend any portion of tlio £30,060 in th<i manner referred to. The Government could not deal with the proposed lino of road until certain difficulties had been removed.

After some further conversation in reference to affording employment, Mr. Oiixtes inquired what number of men were actually prepared to work for bare rations. Mr. Hawkes : I believe from 1500 to 2100. Mr. Gilt,ies : So many as that ?

Mr. II \Wjces : Q.nite as many, if not more. There were scarcely any claims being properly worked on the Eoldflelds, and the whole field hud been v.'ry badly managed.

Mr. Guovb said the surfaoo workings had heen abandoned in most uf the claims, and dep shafts were being pushed down, so that, a great many men had been discharged, and it would be so.no time before tho necessity for their servics would again arise.

Mr. Ha wees said the petition boro between 2,000 and 3,000 signatures.

Mr. Grr.i.iks said of coursc a great many of these would not be in a state of destitution.

Mr. Hawkes thought there were about 1500 in that, condition.

Mr. Or.T.ivrKlt said if the season were not so far advanced, ninny of the other provinces would bo glad of the surplus labour on tho Thames goldfield.

Mr. 6 hove said if Ohinemuri was not shortly opened, or assisted passages provided for the unemployed, something very serious woukl shortly appear.

Mr. Grr.LIES said he would bring tho matt.'r before the Council wiLhout delay in tho shape of a message. [A message on the subject, was laid icfure tho Council in the afternoon, and will be found published in another column.]

Mr. Cbove said the rations per man could not cost less than 2s. per day.

Mr. vJu.r.TES : That would be for 1500 men £900 per week. .Mr. Ollivieu said that sum would bo more beneficially expended in tho payment of assisted passages. Mr. Grove concided with tho la-t speaker. It would at all events enable men to »o where ihcy could earn what Chinamen were said to bo earning—3os. per week.

Mr. OLLiviE't said some men whom ho know had tried to smuggle thcmselvos on board trading vessels in order to get away from the province. Mr. Hawkes said tho evil was in tho working miner boing joined in claims with the capitalist. What would pay the former to work would not satisfy the latter, '

A discussion took place on the subject of the ground being all pegged out, and Mr. I Gillies said ho had instructed the people at tho Thames, whenever leases were refused or I abandoned, to have tho pegs pulled up. I However, in accordance with the suggestion 'of the deputation, he would consent that in future it should be notified that every information as to tho locality of unoccupied ground should bo given at the Engineers' Office. After some further discussion it was arranged that Air. Gillies should accompany the deputation to Mr. McLean at one o'clock.

At one o'clock, the deputation accompanied as before, by Mr. D. Grove, M.P.C., waited upon the Hon. D. McLean, Minister for Native ■AtFiirs. They wore introduced to Mr. McLean by his Honor the Superintendent, T. B. Gillies, Esq. His Honor the Superintendent explained the object of the interview, and briefly related tho conversation which had occurred between the deputation and himself. The deputation desired now to bo informed whether or not the General Government was willing to cooperate with the Provincial Government iu offering employment to the unemployed at the Thames, until such time as the Ohinemuri district was thrown open. The deputation had a petition, whieh they would either present to his Excellency the Governor personally, or to Mr. McLean. Mr. McLean said he would receive the memorial and forward it to his Excellency the Governor. As to the question of affjrding employment to unemployed minors, that was a subject on which he would like to consult his Honor the Superintendent. Mr. Gillies said a paragraph lntd appeared in one of the Auckland papers (tho MorningAdvertiser) which stated that he (Mr. Gillies) had thrown obstacles in the way of opening Ohinemuri ; that Mr. McLean had applieil to him (Mr. Gillies) for money for opening the district, and that he refused to give it. He (Mr. Gillies) had re&d the letters to the deputation. Mr. McLean: The statement you refer to is contradicted in the Cross to-day. Mr. Gillies : I presume you have no objection to the publication of these letters. Mr. McLean : Not the slightest. [The letters referred to are given above.J

Mr. Olliviek said the petition had already appeared in print. It bore over 2,000 signatures, and it was originally drawn up at Ohinemuri. A great many miners had been living at Ohinemuri for a considerable time in expectation of the district being opened up, but as their means was now almost entirely exhausted they were naturally anxious that the Government should tako immediate steps to open the district. There were also many men at Grahamstown and Shortland in circumstances of extreme want. Though t ere might not be an alluvial goldfield in the Ohinemuri country, there might still be patches of alluvial ground which would afford employment to many of the unemployed miners, and would be the means of saving these men from starvation. There were known to bo many magnificent reefs in the district, and if it were opened up these would bo developed, and employment would then be aff-rded for a large number of men. Thus the distress existing at Grahamstown and Shortland would be alleviated. The feeling amongst the miners as to this Ohinemuri question was very strong, and many expressions had beon made use of which, perhaps, it would not be prudent to repeat. The only excuse that could be made was that these men were in a condition of extreme destitution, and in this state men were naturally too re idy to complain. The miners, in fact, fancied that the Government were not taking steps towards relieving them in their present distress, and there had been threats of adopting extreme measures which, under ordinary circumstances, would not bo thought of. His Honor the Superintendent had suggested that probably something might be done in the way of providing such, an amount of work as would provide the unemployed minors with food, and it had also been suggested that perhaps the General Government would be able to expend a portion of the £30,000 voted in tholttst.oeosion' of tlio Gcnural Assembly for making roads, in the interior in the employment of the distressed miners.

.... Mr.. G-iixibs said he Lad learned from tho deputation that there weii3 at least 1-iOO men at the Thames on the verge of starvation, and fho yroulcl require to be provided with food, or assisted to remove to other provinces. He (Mr. Gillies) li->d suggested that the unemployed men might bo employed breaking road metal. This work would be provided not so much as a means -of in some measure re conping the expenditure us a test of good faith on the part of applicants for relief. A very large quantity of road metal would be required in ■ order to afford employment to so many as 1500 men, >vho would very soon break a very largo quantity. It had also been suggested that tho men might ho employed cutting bush tracks, but in that sort of work a great number of inspectors would have to be employed, which would waste the •funds available. There was a thir i suggestion, that employment should be afforded in the ■way of cutting flax, and sending the green leaf home, but he (Mr. (Sillies) was under the im-pres-ion that the green leaf was valueless at home. Mr. McLean said the green Has would not find a market in England, but probably it might bo supplied to owners of flax-mills at so much per ton. Air. Oli.lvier thought ho had seen green flax quoted in the reports of tho (lax sales at home. Mr. G-ilt.ies said that was when tho flax was in its first state, after it had been scutched in the machine. Hut, to return to the matter under consideration, the deputat ion, as already stated, had proposed that the men should be employed by the General Government in roadmaking.

Mr. McLean said the raids contemplated by tho Assembly were confined to the leading line, with one or two important roads eonverging from Taupo. He imd .-everal reports upon the various proposed lines, mi l it was iioped that his Honor the Superintendent would bo able to give his opinion as to the best line from the Bay of Pleat;v t.j Taupo. One line, from Maketu to Botorua, had been almost completed ; the lino from Kolortta to Taupo being performed under eon! rat:i by the Arawa tribe. The Constabulary were working 011 tho Tauraiifja road, and the only necessary road was one to Tauranga. That app-a ed to be what would prove to be the main line from the Bay of Plenty to Tauranga, and when be visited Tailranga the other (lay, he directed the .authorities there to begin the construction of l.hnb road at once, so as to take ad van' age ol the summer months; and as all those at Tauranga best acquainted with the country represented thai the routo fixed upon was the most desirable one to Taupo. Tho work had been commenced by the militia and volunteers at. Tauranga, and it was better that they should bo thus employed than that they should bo idle. Whether or not some of tho unemployed miners co dd be set to work upon the Tauranga road was a question for consideration. Mr. Gll,lies inquired whether there was any probability of having the line pushed through irorathc Waikato. Mr. Mc.Jjk.vn said lhat was a matter in ■which he took great personal iiitorest. William Thomson's son was now in 'own, and he (Mr. McLean) had consulted him a< to the proposed road from Waikato Thomson's S'iu 111 t,he first'instance said tho whole of the King natives were decidedly opposed to any road being carried through that district, but nt'lerw irds the chief said lie would speak to Irs tribe about the matter, and see what could bo done. To Poihipi, one of tho Taupo chiefs, was now engaged in negotiating with his peoplo to ob'.ain their consent to the line \vhic,l\ it was proposed in that direction, while the Government were endeavouring to remove the obstaelos in the way of the Waikato road. Of course it

would not be advisable to commence these ro-:ds without first removing tho opposition of t.he ICing. He would, consult with his colleagues on fcho subjec- of affording employment to the miners. The Hon; Mr. Fox was expected to arrive in Auckland eveiy moment by the Phoebe, while Mr. Vogel was already here. Mr. (> ilijles f aid the members of the deputation had stated that Mr. McLean had promised while at Ohinemuri that the district would he opened within three months. Mr. McLean : I said I believed it would be opened. There was a meeting of diggers held there, and from the appearance of things at the time. I thought it was possible that the district would be opened within three months. '1 hat. was merely ray opinion at the time, and I .nerely said I thought it would be opened, but said nothing definite. Many difficulties and complications have since sprung up. Te Kooti found his way into the King's district, while I was in the midst of negotiations for the opening of Ohinemuri, and this and other circumstances have retarded the success of my endeavours to open the district. I Mr Grove said the statement that Ohinemuri woul'i be opened within three months affected the prosperity of the gold Geld, and increased the distress. There were many men in Auckland and at the Thames prepared wiili money to invest, but who would defer doing so until Ohinemuri was opened. These men said, " Oh, Mr. McLean has said that Ohinemuri will be opened within three months, and I will keep my money in my pocket until then." Tho miners would like, if possible, to have a definite statement as to when the land was likely to bo opened. Mr. McLean Baid all that lie could say was that, so far as the opening of the district was concerned, matters were in a much more favourable position than t hey had been for some time past. Some of the principal obstacles had been removed, apart from the opposition of Te Hira, who was very obstinate in his obstruction to the opening of the district. Although the Government could not fix nny definite time at which the district would be opened, he might inform the deputation that some of the chiefs who had been seer, tly opposed to the opening of the district, though professedly favourable to opening it, were now entirely co-operating j with the Government in the endeavour to remove all opposition. Te Moananui, who was known to have been opposed to the opening of the district, though he attended the meeting held by the Government officers, was now ent.ire'y favourable to opening the district, and ha.l been up to Ohinemuri to visit Te Hira, to whom he made a proposal that; he should select, a portion of land on which he might continue to live according to his wi-hes, and hold out, while the diggers would be permitted to prosecute the search for gold. He (Mr. McLean), however, believed that many of the landowners would require to have some sanction from the King, to whom they looked for support, as they also looked to Te Kooti for support in withholding Ohinemuri. There were these two difficulties to be met with —Te Kooti and the King party. As for tho local difficulties, ho (Mr. McLeau) did not regard them as of much consequence. He did not look upon the opposition of Te Hira and the 01 hers as any very serious obstacles in the way of opening the district; but it was the outside opposition that was difficult to be dealt with. Any attempt lo coerce that opposition might embroil the colony in very serious complications and difficulties. In the?c negotiations, although it might appear to some that the Government were not exerting themselves, he could assure the members of the deputation that the General Government was fully alive to the great importance to the colony of the opening of the district, and that Government would leave no stone unturned to effect the object in view. The plan that many might conceive to be the most effective, was not the most prudent to adopt- with resncct to natives. Mr. Gbove said of course the miners, or a majority of them, knew that they could not compete with the natives witli crushing machines onl.v; that they could not succeed unless backed up by the Government. There were about 3000 men "out of employment at the Thames, and about half of that number were in a state of extreme destitution.

Mr. McLkan : Do you think there arc as many as 3000 men idle ? Mr. Hawkes : There are not less than WOO idle on the Thames altogether, and out of that number 1500 or 20C/0 are actually in want, and I have no doubt that it is the fact of their being out of employment that makes them impatient and unreasonable in reference to the oprniiiL' of Ohinemuri. Mr. Grove asked what was to be done to afford employment to the unemployed miners in the meantime ?

Mr. McLeax said ho would be very glad to meet the Superintendent, nnd discuss the matter with him on Thursday, should Mr. Fox arrive that day, in order to determine as to what should be done to relieve the distress which had been spoken of. He could not himself promise anything further than that ministers would confer upon the matter, and determine as to what was best to be done.

Mr. CtKOV'E said it had been suggested that if the Government saw any practical ditliculty in the way of opening Ohinemuri, the Government migh< possibly see its way to give reli-f for a month or two, or to enable a number of unemployed men to leave the province, but not the colony, in order to obtain emnloyment in Otago or elsewhere.

Mr. Hawkf.s said, in the provincejust mentioned—Otago, there was plenty of country where men could earn a living. Mr. McLean sai he was quite aware that t he ease wa< one which required the most careful attention, both from the General and the Provincial Government, and therefore the Ministry were very anx ous to do what they could in the matter.

Mr. Uawkes said there were people at the Thames from every part of New Zealand

who iiad been acciutomod to earn a living, but at the Thames their hands were completely tied. Many of these men had stayed at, the Thames until their last shilling was expended, and now they were without the means of removing themselves to some other place. Mr. Grovb said in most otlvr goldfields the miners had large ngric itural leases, but here there was no hing of the kind, and lhat was one cause of the pinch at present. Mr. McLean : In OLugo they have these leases. Mr. Gu.t.ies : Tf Ohinemuri were opened there is pie ty of lar.d there for the purpose Mr. Gr.ovE said he could raise a- large amount of money in Auckland for investment. at. Ohinemuri, but. people would not t-peud a s'nillirtg on the Thames at present.

Mr. Or.i.rviKUsaid the natives at, Ohinemuri had expressed themselves as indifferent respecting tho miner--'' right fees. lie p inted to instances such as the Golden Crown, w'loro men received ltio'o for one single share thin the natives received altogether from t'e fees. The non-consenting natives expressed themselves as peruvtly willing to open the land if they got a share in tile claims.

Mr. MeVrAX thought sucH an arrii'igemenfc v,\n:M b.' :i good one. i f I,he <-laims proved t bo poor there would bo 110 loss in tin; form of foes, &, ■, ns under the present system

Mr. Oh'.ivimt paid the miners were perfectly u iiling to agree to the ) U'oposod !irr»ngen;ent. Ml'. G -<)V i: thought such a system would destroy every ehaneo of legislation lov the iioTit. ' If the M.oris had shares in the Golden Crown and some other claims, una had to p«y ii portion of the expense, they would find tlio thing very different from what they imagined. Mr. McLean: That is the diHleulty ; they would not, bo tiblc to contribute anything towards tlio expense. Mr. Oixivieb : At nil events it would be the means of opening the field. When shares

in the goldfield are mentioned, even Te Hira listens to that. All the natives are pleased with that proposal. .Mr Gkoye : Will Tc Hira go in for a Bliare of the expense P Mr. Ollivier : That is what we told him. Mr. McLean : The Superintendent, when the land is transferred to hira, will Have to decide the basis npon which it will be worked. Mr. Gillies : I think the miners' right system is a bad and complicated system. Mr. McLean : There are always complications where there is a native title Mr. Gillies : If we could only make out what llie natives want we would give it to them. Mr. McLean : That arrangement would be perfectly fair if it were understood that tha natives should boar a portion of the expense, but it would have to be clearly stated what proportion they would have to pay. Mr. OtuviEß : If a claim struck gold then the natives might be called upon to put on a man and pay hi in wages. Mr. McLean : But it is as to the question of finding the money at the start. Mr. Ollivieb : The diggers would have to find the money in the first instance. Mr. Hawkes : I approve of the mode proposed by his Honor a-j the best. Mr. McLean : You mean the leasing. Mr. Ollivieb : Yes ; I think by that means we should be able to open it in proper form. Mr. Gillies : We should be able to abolish a large number of charges in the shape of fees. The Government under the present system is compelled to charge double Mr. Hawkes : The gold industry is not more remunerative than any other, but yet it is more heavily taxed. This system must ruin itself and ruin the industry in the bargain. The miners are poorer, as a body, than any other class, and there is no doubt that, if tho present system of oppressive taxation is continued, miners as a body must become still poorer. Mr. Grove said the special taxation Imnose 1 upon miners amounted to £50 a-head. Mr. Hawkes said, under the present sytem of administration at the Thames, it wa* impossible to work at all. (The speaker went into comparisons showing the relative cost of litigation in Australia aud New Zealand.) It was necessary that there should bc u. thorough reform in the construction of mining laws. A more simple and less expensive co le than the one now in use was urgently needed. It was absurd that the miner should be taxed upon every small document that he might require. Mr. McLean : That is one of the questions which will require to be carefully dealt with in the next session of the Assembly. Mr. Hawkell said he knew of thousands of men who had left the country owing to the inefßciency of the mining laws. It was breaking a man down. These men had been accustomed to earn their bread by labour, but now they found that they were fettered by the Government, and that they had pot free action to exercise their skill and obtain a livelihood. For this reason tbey got annoyed and left the country. Thus they were lost to the country. Mr.*GILLIES did not see that it w is a ques tion of legislation. The native title necessitated a Becond charge, and that was the real point of difference between this country and the other colonies. With regard to the other fees, independently of the fees payable to the native, they were not so heavy as tho*e paid in "Victoria, and the regulations also were simpler, though they might not be as efficient. What was wanted was a simple reform iu the administration: more legislation could do the field no good. Mr. Hawkes, in reply, quoted figures showing the diff rences in the fees here and in Victoria. . Mr. Gillies said that was simply a question of administration, not of legi-lation. ,Mr. Grove : The past administration on the goldfields has tended as much to bring on this state of things as anything else. Mr. GriiiES: Ido not see what good could be doue by r resh laws. Mr. Hawkes said he did not see why a man should be required to register an ordinary claim ; let him work it as he pleased. Mr. Gillies : That matter is a mere regulation —it is no part of the Goldfields Act. Mr. Gbove said in Victoria the expense of litigation and the onus of proof was thrown upon the claimant, not upon the party in possession of the grounds as in this province. Mr. OLLITIER drew the attention of the Native Minister to that portion of the petition referring to the prevention of monopoly by speculators. Mr. McLean said the Government quite coincided with the diggers in this matter, and it- was for the protection of the miner that the Government had adjourned the Native Lands

Court. „ , . Jir. G-rr,LtR3 referred to the question ot iv!uloriii ,r the land inalienable ill tliG Cpowu grant s to be issued to the natives, or of reserving the right of mining on the limd. "jfr. McLean* said the Govern mont proposed to reserve the right of mining in tne grants. The Chief -Judfjc of the Native Lands Court had expressed himself m favor ot that plan. No doubt the law authorised the issue of the grant subject to such conditions as the G-overnment might choose to im.insc.

Mr. Grove said the miners were anxious for au answer as to how immediate relief was to be afforded.

Mr. McLhan said as soon as the Hoc. the Premier arrived, Ministers would consult with the Superintendent on the matter.^ After some further conversation, it was arranged that, if possible, a decision should be come to by the Government by Friday, on which day an answer should be given to the deputation, who in the meantime should remain in Auckland.

Mr. Gillies said it was his intention, immediately after the nrorogaiion of the Provincial Council to go down to the Thames and see into matters for himself.

Mr. Olf.ivikr said there was 'an urgent necessity that something should be done to stop the mouths of the discontented people and to prevent serious consequences resulting. Mr. XI \WKCS said the miners had endured privation and disappointment for a lon» time, and they were almost worn out with waiting. After a few move remarks the pvojeeding< terminated, and the deputation, having thanked his Honor, withdrew.