AUCKLAND PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

New Zealand Herald, Volume V, Issue 1306, 23 January 1868, Page 3

AUCKLAND PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

dnesday, January 22. Tun 9poabor t:ok tlie clinir ut 3 o'clock. l>renent—Tho Provincial Secretary, the Provincial Solicitor, Moears. Digwin, Munroe, O'lSoill, Farmer, Macready, Davy, Swunson, sheehan, Clarke, Kerr, Bui], Ificholeon, Captain i ooper, Taylor, Maclenn, Dticre, Carleton. KAWAKAWjI COAL MLNBB. Mr. Caeletom asked tho bon. member at the head of the Government. Whether tho Government have given power to Mr. McTJeod, lessee of the Bay of IsUndH mines, to eject from their houees persons living on Govornmont land in the vicinity, nnd who wero in orcupntion before any powers were conceded to tha Jesst>» ? Also, whether tho Q-uvernment will lay a copy of Mr. llcLeod's leaee on the tahlo ? The Provincial Keoubtaey said that no euch powers hnd been given to Mr. Mckeod, and a copy of Mr, AfoLeod'a leaso would bo laid on the table whon completed. BTBAMEH GEMINI. Mr. Cubighton uekod tho Provincial Treasurer, Whether any sum of money was paid for the hire of the Gemini duriner her einpl'-yment by hie Honor tho Superintendent at flic Thames, »nd if euch payment was made, from what source the money was taken, and what was tho amount ; also, whether any, and if any, what amount will be deducted from the subsidy paid to the owner of the Gemini because of Lie withdrawing that eteam bout froin the Kiverhead service ? Likowisd, whrthar nny sum was puid for- the hire of tho Government steamer -turt during his Honor tho Superintendent's second visit to the Thames, nnd if so from what source the money was taken, undwhut wiistno amount? The Provincial Seck-btajiy : No sum of money had as yet been paid for the Gmiini, which was then engaged on sundry servicoe. Complaints had been received of difficulty of nivess to the Kaueranjja landing place, and tho harbourmaster hiving accompanied the Superintondent wae enobl-d to remove tho enagH in tho channel. The Provincial Surveyor, Major Heuphy.wajalsoonableU tolay down theappio.uchesto the landing place, and mrvoy the beach line. <\e to the Sturt, that vessel vrtia placed at the eervico of the Superintendent w.thout any cost to the I'rovincial Government. MB. davy's resolutions. Mr. Davy moved, That in the opinion of this Council, in order to ensure the better working of _ the existing system of Local Government in the province of Auckland, it is essential: 1. That the eyatem of representation be amended and ro-adjusted, so as to give the country districts greater weight of representation in this Council. 2. That steps be taken for the constitution, under the authority of this Council, of township or District Local Boards, to which should bo delegated all powers, duties, and privileges relating to the local affaire of each dietrict, which this Council hae power to delegate ; and thaf, to prevent doubts, the General ABeeinbly be moved to ratify such constitution. 3. That the rateable distribution amongst such Local Boards, on fixed and equitable principles, of such provincial revenue as may in future become available for local purposes, be provided for by Act of this Council. 4. That the reduction of all Provincial Government establishments be thorough and permanent. He regretted the expressions that he had used the day before, particularly as they were taken by some bon. members to apply to them. Hβ proposed the I

resolutions in his name in confidence that truth would be elicited and fallacy would be removed. Certain resolutions had heen put upon tho paper and then suddenly disappeared. Although a mosquito was a troublesome insect it was not a dangerous one 'I he fact that while hundreds of thousands hare been laid out in other districts, only £1500 had been luid out in the north, proved that practically the country had not its just weight of representation. The foundations of cities were most frequenily laid by tho plough, and while the town might claim to govern itself the countiy should govern the province. In Canada there were town and country municipalities. (The hon. member rond a long do.-cription of the sysfem of local Government in Cfpper Canada.) 'V«e system proposed by his second resolution would carry tho advantage of local governmsr.t into every district. This local government eould as properly proceed from the Provincial Qovo'nment as.from the General Government. Tb« third resolution was n provision for the future. The bait that had been held out by tho General Government was that a certain sum should be given out of ordinary revenue. r i he Victorian Act, of which tho Local Government Bill was a copr, ha i an ordinary revenue, but in Now Zealand thero viw something b-.hind the scenes. There \v;is the divifir.n of the revenue the Provinces. «nd if Mr. Stafford would forego the claims he had usrainat tho province, and its liabilities wore cleared off, he would bo willing to throw himpelf into the cenoroua arms of Mr. Stafford. The fourth rrsolution was tho key "f the whole scheiao. Aβ to being- governed torn Wellinpton he stated instmces where the stamp law could not have been known, it not havinsr been notified. Yet tho government at Wellington insieted upon the penalties. There werp other Acts which, being unknown to the people, could not be complied with, but the '-overnment at Wellington acted most oppressively in insisting on their pains and penalties being enk r-«d. Were tho Council to ghe itself over to nich a Government ic would be ?. jump out of the frying fan into tho fire. Nβ believed if the Council were thoroughly in earnest they would be able to preserve tho nucleus ol" provincial institutions, hut if they were not, they must go within the eddies of tho whirlpool and bo in tho vortex i'n'al to governments somewhere about Cooks Straits, —th.it bourne from whence no government returned. MESSAGES. Enclosing a memoriV to His Excellency from Mr. £:unu«l Miller, representing his Ion? service of 27 yearn in the Government, both the (iencnil auA Provincial Governments, ordered to bo considered in f'r.mmi'ten of Supply. Corrcsp.'.ntL-ni:- •-■-"■ th tho Colonial Secretary rcbtiu:c to a gei;cr .1 amiifisty to natives iruilty of jiolitiiml offences. Mr. Stafford's lettor says that the letter o! his Honor, and tho resolution of tho Provincial Council, will be laid befure the Governor on iiis return to \VeUin 2 t n. Mr. Wyxn proposed, :md it was agreed to, rhsit tho resolutions of Mr. 3)avy should be eou.-iderod aori.ititn. Mr. Datt moved thp first resolution. Mr. Oarlbton moved an amendment to the motion, viz., that the form cfloc.il jjovornment nowtxistine; in the Province of Auckland ought not to continue. He complimented Mr. Davy on tho liandenme manner in which he had retracted the expressions u>ed on a previous occasion. He would, in reply to tho hon. gentleman, stuto that he coul ■ not have moved his resolution* before tho estimates had been brought down, and as to tho change made in the resolution, the object was to be more iu conformity with public, opinion. Tn placing hi* own resolutions he would deal with tha subject in a more comprehensive and liberal munner. The question was tho most important question that ever could or ever had be«n brought before the Council. It affected the moat characteristic feature of the Constitution of New Zealand. It were easy to mete a sensation epeeeh ; he would use the homliett language, as he did not intend to appeal to the passions of tho Council. There were two parts, the i.'olouial and the Provincial—let the Council consider the meaning of the word*. If Provincialism meant a fair distribution of power and expenditure through the country, he was a Hrnvincialiat; but if centralization was to exhaust expenditure in the towns, and the country tared for the aggrandisement of a few, which found its climax in the vote on the Local Government Bill—a vote that would never be forgotten— that was not tho kind of Provincialism which he would support. Public opinion had pronounced from one end to the other against double government, and cried out to upset the coach. There was a minority who made a gre.tter show than they deserved, by getting up " private public meetings," and sending cooked reports to the newspapers. But the country had been vie torious, but it had left its pting behind, and was dying of the wound it had inflicted. Tho city had drawn its mstenance from six sources :—Maori war, Government expenditure, the loan expenditure—including tho railway, the harbor, and shipping, and immigrant capital. As to the last, immigrants had bsen brought out before roads were made to their land, and this to the loss of immigrants but to the advantage of the town. Last source of sustenance was the labour of tho country 69ttlers But the city had been busy in killing the goose that laid the golden eg§s. That »as provincialism pure and simple. It would be easy to show the disadvantage of concurrent legislatures, which, instead of seventy legislators, gave nine mobs, the consequence of putting two hands into one purse, and the consequences of tho immoral compact which developed itself in block voting, by all which it was necessary for the primary government to charge a large taxation to feed those nine hungry birds. The process looked like that of t>in monkeys at feeding time, each one having a hand in his neighbour's dish, forgetting that his own platter was being robbed at the same time. But ho would prefer to use arguments nearer home, to tread on the provincinl corn, and show where the shoe pinched. Provincialism had given the privilege not of governing, but of mismanngintr aff.irs. A few got tho privilege of managing their affairs. Inetead of a government there was a petty tyranny. Political influence had lapsed into the hands of jobbers and contractors, 'ihere w»s t > be seen labor brought out by faleo pretences, ai;d destit lion staring them in tho face ; the present state of the was such as he had never see'i in any other colony. The Government estimate of assets was £31,788. but the estimate of the Finance Committee was £6,210, contingent assets £13,087. That was, the Government could not give the information without abnegating thur powers to a committee. The Government e-timato of aesete was £21,050, that of tho Committee £35,965, prospective liabilities ascertained £16,000, and others not ascertained. Then there were the puymentof expenTho'PnoviNcisi. SECEF.Ti.nT ; Will the hon. member say who began th t practice. Mr. 0/iBLIT.N : The Government of the hon. member would show whore he was personally responsible for anything thnt had been done. He (Mr. Carleton) was not attacking any particular Government (oh) When he was connected with the Whitaker Government he was in office to obey orders (oh.) Ue was a mere cypher (oh, oh,) there Were five others beside himself. Pu .VINCIAL u<Y : And you did not resign ? Mr. CahlEton : It, was not a question of principle, it was a questioE of amount. Selfishness was at the root ol all thin, which, bad it been manifested by an uristo racy instead of by inushromndgm, w.-uld have been denounced. It was an exclusivenese which made tho Auckland members hated in the -ssembly and left th m with a brute force of fifteen votes Why should Auckland not throw in her lot with the other provinces P A late Attorney-Geneial of the colony wrote what looked like prophecy wiien said that an elective Superintendent was no security for harmony with the Council that in times of depression there would be barely sufficient to pay the salaries of officers —that there would be nothing left for public works. People ought not to have recourse to the argwnentum odium, and importing the name of a t -wn into an argument of principle. The province wae bankrupt; bankrupts would like to stand up for honour and dignity, but that could not be allowed them. The question was a money one—a question of taxation, and nothing more, fie would ask the independent members what they meaut to do to retrieve the fortune of the province, and pay 20a in the pound f The oountry had been destroyed by squabbles, leading to ill-will end expense. Certain establishments were generally agreed to be handed over—such as gaoh and lunatic asylums; but the General Government would expect the revenue to be handed over to them before they would do so. The Government said they would appropriate money out of the general revenue to this province, but did anybody think thio province- would not have to account for every penny of it P When ithe General Assembly met, they would propoee that it should be raised by taxation, and he (Mr.Oarleton) would fed bound to tote for such taxation. The people of thia province— nolentea volentu— would find it taken from them. When Auckland waa taken over, the koy-stone would hare dropped out of the

arch of provincialism, anil what if there were noprovinces ? Then the necessary charges of .Auckland would fnil uyon the con-olidated revenue. Jlunicipalities would become a reality if thty wou'd retain, centralization in the towns, und charge the out districts with maintaining it. The Council was elow to eee rOToluticn loomiufr in the future. Mr. Hows moved that the Council adjourn for an hour. .Mr. Wish said that ¥r. Carleton was not preeeTit to heaf the answer. Jlr. f'arleton's T B>olu:ions had been on the paper, were taken off the paper, had assumed various shapes. Those were reasons for adjournment. [Mr. Carleton entered the c* amber]. 'I , he debate wa9 adjourned for half an horn , . Upon the Council resuming, at a quarter to seren, o'clock— Mr. Wissf moved the nrijiurnmTit A f tho debate. Eo Siiid the result would be n declarati n aa to the very r-xis'ence of the Council. It -would bo r.)o3t inexpedient to continue tf.p discussion in ?o thin a. I'ousa, tha bare quorum btin:{ present. Mr. KffWE said there wr-.s anntlier re&sr.n fer the adjournment. The deb te on the >u c-nme on most unexpectedly, as far us Mr. Carli".to:i was concerned. It wa* r.lnin liiat the tesolnti--n< should coins off on the 23rd It was clear to his mind that only a few gentl. men were in the secret of these resolutions beint; brought forward that d-.y. Mr. Cbeightox said that the hnn. member knew the reason why the resolutions had been postponed, and the reasons were good. Mr. Ro\V£ said the resolutions of Mr Carlston should have been debated to-mcrrow, uwl nut that day. Mr. Ckeightok said he would divide the Houee on tho quer-tion ot adjournment. Ho h> lieved that the resolution cf the lion, mi'uiber for Marodfn was a counter movement BUfgested bj :ho Government. -Mr. Wrax: No. Mr. BiCKi.AXD thought the other buMne's could be taken, and then Ihtre would ! « a full House. Mr. l.'/iTY eaid there liad b'.cn no suggsstioa to bijii whatever. CITT 1 ICENCE TEES. lifr. Cakif.ton moved, Thr.t witli a view to the diminution of ih« « i<- !'ates. 'il! frts 'evied within the pr. eincts of (he City cf -■■ ui'-iLinu, ought to be paid ovf-r to th , usu rf tho City iScard. lir. O'Neill si-nonrled the mo'kin. Ei-.t tlie half-hour huving expirtd, the ?PEiKBK I decided that Die d buto wiiich hud bee;i ndjou:ned for hsilf an how elunld bo ref-mncd. roi'.M op govj:i!Xj;ext.- i>fb..ts KjsniED. Mr. rfovru siid hu w;ib sorry tho subject liad come on fur discussion, lie knew nothir.<; of its coming on un'.il ho ertc-rcd the Council Hβ entirely opposed the «:r_e!:dnieiit, and he shoidd, even thoupti tfi& motion an'-u'cl puss tnut lit crury futur.' s'i'p iliat further be taken he would feei it big iliitv to r.ppo.'e it. so strong was hs ieeliiig. lir. Carieton suitl it was a money question, the wliole go , , ernment of the country was •A n>oi:uy quettif-n. ~30 don; t the whi lo colony was i-iifrering frorr. reckless expeTniiture. Was it the pravincinl -.nsliiution th'st wae to bla;no The grfiitfit amount of b tune rested v;ith the General Government. That Government had ior many yours, so far as money was concerns d, pursued a very re kless lins of conduct. It was not necessary to go out of the province to s;'O that tii.y—the General Government—had spent the greater part of the three million loan, but how unprofita'jly, how uselessly. A change, us well raid, would be out of the frying pan into the fire. It was a bad argument to say that the General Government would rednoe £50,000 if the province did the same. If they said, " Let tho reduction bo to s.ive the colony and the provinces aline," it could be understood. Mr. Cakl ton : 'ihey did it. Mr. Howe : They d-d not. Look at the estimates of the General Government. If a man wanted to hand over his estate to an s'gent, he would not select one who had waited his own fortune, and who had done the business of his clients prudently. It was said the Provincial Government had wasted their resources, and were bankrupt, who wa , ! to be the The General Government did not possese any qualification necessary for the mana.-emont of the puolic funds, lie (Mr. Rowe) would nr.t consent to hand over affaire to them, unless they manifested some greater amount of financial ability. It was said by the hon. member for the Bay that provincialism i reduced bribery and corruption—so it did. Provineiil secretarys, and amongst them (he member for the Boy, who had a great de:il to do with the finances of the province. Mr. Oablston : No ; nothing.

Mr. Howe: The hon. gentleman said he was aa honest man ; well, he brought down estimates which he did not agree with ; thun, goed-bye to honesty if that be honest. It was the duty of one bo placed to oppose those estimates and resign. Mr. Oarletox : I was not Provincial Tieasurer when I brought down those estimates. Mr. owe : The more necessary to have resigned. He (ilr Howe) thought it was ihe duty of the (Jfnernl Government to reduce expenditure to the lowest amount, and relieve from taxation in proportion. A greater eham was never invented than the Local Government Bill—wonderful to give two pounds for one. (Hear.) Capital bill that. (Laughter.) It would noS have done anything of the kind. It could not have been done except by laying further burthens on the people. Supposing local boards raised £10,000, where was the £20,000 to come from? Be self-sacrificing ! It would have been well if the hou. gentleman could inspire the people of the South with such a spirit. Would they have submitted to such an amount Irom their revenue? The two pounds must come out of the .Province of Auckland. It's then taken to Wellington, and there being aifced HHle of it would come b ick to the local boards. It was a sham—an utter sham, let the General Government reduce expenditure to the loweet point, and thon ask tho people to tax themanlvt-s. The people of Auckland could do better. It was the business of that Council to loi'k difficulties in the face. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Carlcton) niade difficulties ont of every poseible opportunity. The hon. member (Mr. voted for £800 a-year to an Engineer, in-Chief last year when an effort w.is inado to reiuoe salaries, and part of the £20,000 he referred to went to pay that s'tlavy. Ke (Mr. Itowe) was willing to give power to local boards, and he had more fiiith in the remedial measurse that Council could employ than those which could be employed by the General Government. Kather thiiii break up provincial institutions, it was better to preserve what was good in them than accept a change fraught with so many apparent evils. There was no more desitation in iho province than there w«s in Adelaide, Sydney, or Melbourn-. There had been an export list* month of £10,000, that would be increasing, and represented more than £12 ',000 a year. Fhut would improve the condition of affairs. The reason of the proceeding of those gentlemen was because they knew in another year they would not succeed. 1 f they go to the Assembly next session, let them by a bloc* vote, if necessary, eay that economy and letrenchment must be adopted. Thea you have thu mo-t economical.. Government. I care not. what its torn, but to have a creature of the General Government at a large salary, who will employ other creatures at large salaries, that he, Mr. Kowe, would resist to the utmost. Let the lurgeit amount of local self Government be given to the out districts. Tho.-e who talked of the hall-million loan being spent in the town, court-house, gai.l, r .ilway, and Punuiure bridge, were for the country. Hβ would recoinmond to the Council to consider the the wisdom of the words. ■ c Better to bear the ills we have, Than n> to other- that we know not of." Mr. Bucklajid a«id that the hon. member (Mr Bowk) had been raising up shadows and Gghting them. His principle was, abute his opponent's atto ney, but that did not make his own merit the Teater. ') he truth was the present position had been brought about by extravagance, moral turpitude, members of that Council getting ealariee to fulfil, duties incompatible with representation. He had opposed the half million loan, for he said better it had been tied up in bags and thrown into the river, so great wae the turpitude be tipected from its reckless expenditure. Ho admitted to the full the bhori-comings of thu General Government. There wae no putilic virtue among the people. Let them look at the Insolvent Courts: the littli- smuggling trtnact ons—every person seemed tothi-ik tbat the Governm nt was only in existence to be robbed. Captain Coopee thought there ought to he a redistribution of the representation. He wouM «npport that proposition. It was i-a d that there wai no public opinion, but it was the public opinion of one or two gentlemen that brought n all tho evils, and those who talked about 'he evil* of nuperintendal sm would displace it by officialism Ihe r nglieh of the proposition of the hon. member (Mr. Ca.leton) wae to go from bad to wo se. On the motion of Mr. seconded by Mr. KBBB, the debate was adjourned till to-morrow.

On the motion of Mr. Botve, seconded by Mr. Wtnn, the d»bato was ordered to be resumed ae the first business to-morrow. The motions undisposed of were ordered to eont'uue on tho notice paper. On the motion of the Pkovinciax Secretary, the Council adjourned at half past nino o'clock to three o'clock to-morrow.