AUCKLAND PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

New Zealand Herald, Volume V, Issue 1306, 22 January 1868, Page 3

AUCKLAND PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

TUESDAY, JANUABY 22. The Speaker took the chair at 3 o'clock. Present: Messrs. Gilfillan (Provincial Secretary), Wynn (Provincial Solictor), Dignan, O'Neill, FarJaer Macieady, Webster, Swanson, Kerr, Ball, Davy, Nicholson, Cooper, Munroe, Taylor, Maclean, Newman, Cheeseman, Cerleton, Col. l'eacocke. ,The mi intcs were read by the clerk and corSrmedpetitions. Dr. Nicholson presented a petition from 333 i.ihabitants of Onehunga againßt the sale by Government of the " Springs," Onehunga. The petition was ordered to be received. MONIES PAID INTO TREASURY. Mr. Cauxetjn asked the Provincial Treasurer, What sums were actually realized and brought into the Provincial Treasury belore the first day of January, 1868, out of thosj sums Botdown as assets of the Provincial Government of Auckland on the 10th December, 1867, in the (•tatement laid on the table by the Provincial Treasurer on the 11th December. 1867 ? The Pj;ovi.-.'ciat, Secretary, in reply, taid : Of the sums referred to, the following wore paid in to the Provincial Treasury before the first of January :— £ s. d. Provincial Revenue, Bent of Tolls, &c. ... 460 14 6 Amount of Railway Plant sold 11l 11 H Ite-payments on Account of Immigration. 46 0 0 £618 6 5 MR. T. MACFFARLANE. Mr. Ball moved, That the report of the Private Grievance Committee on the petition of Mr. Thomas Macffarlane, included in their interim report No. 3 session XV, 1863, bo referred to the Petitions Committee, in order that the necessary steps may be taken for bringing the case under the operation of clause 30 of the Auckland Waste Land Act, 1867. The report is as follows: " Your Committee are of opinion that the case of Mr.T. Macffarlane, who presented his landforder beyond the term specified by law, should be recommended as one to be brought within the provisions of tin Act proposed to be introduced to the General Assembly by a previous resolution of this Committee, referring to David Fort's case."

Mr. Ball in reply to Mr.:;Wynn,-stated that Mr, Macffarlane oame out befoYe'hid family and did not use his land order until after they arrived, when he found that it was too late. Mr. Chekbeman wished to know what Act of the General Assombly was referred to. Mr. Newman said that it would lessen the labors of the Potitions Committee, which did not seem to liko a great deal of work, if those olaims were referred to the Council. This was one of those cases which arose through a technical difficulty or o clerical error, and the matter could bo settled at once. It was required that such questions should be settled nod adjustment mado by resolution of tho Council, before the Superintendent could take any notice of tho case, Mr. Buckland thought that if there woro many such cases, a Committee would moss conveniently deal with them. Mr. Ball read tho olauoe of the Act by which the Council required to pass a resolution before the Superintendent could move in tho matter. ONEKTTNQA SPBIVG3. Correspondence relating to the proposed salo of the?e allotments, was laid on tho table, including tho memorial of certain inhabitants of Onehunga. His Honor's reply doc'ining to comply with their request and the letter of the Provincial Surveyor (Major Heaphy). Major Heaphy declines to endorse tho arguments of the memorialists against the sale. He says that these are not the only means of getting a water supply for tho town, that they woro not roseived for that purposo originally, and that thoro will bo no blocking up of access to Princes street, Onehunga.Tho Provincial Skcbetauy said that he would make a short statement to tho Council upon the question. While the Superintendent claimed the right to sell those allotments, he was yet willing to withhold tho sale in tho hopo that the people of Onehunga would take advantage of tho Act of the General Assombl}-, aDd erect tho town into a corporation. Ho would be prepared to give those allotments ovor to such a body. As to another matter he might give also n short statement, namely, with regard to tho claim set up by Mr. Mackelvie, on behalf of Mr. William Brown. The Superintendent states that he never had any knowledge of the oxistenoe of such a claim. Mr. Hunter asked whether any arrangements had boon made to ro-constitutn tho executive. Mr. Wisx said he would state to tho Council what had takon place Ho would say at once that two hon. members had been sent for. ono of them was tho hon. member for Marsden, Mr. Davy. Tho executive of course could not have hoped to pledge any member that might join the Government until after tho estimates had been laid on the table.

Mr. Davy said if the Council would a'low him he would state to tho Council why ho had held aloof from tho present executive. Ho could not have taken any action until tho estimates were sent down. Thero was one way in which they might affect his viows of the state of the province, but there were other respects in which he was not affected by them. Of course ho was a more tyro in politics, coming so to speak from green fields, and green as the fiolds he came fiom. But he believed the wholo of tho futuro policy of the province ought to bo to keep in view tho separation of this from tho other island, and tho return of the scat of Government. Ho thought that tho question of insular separation should r.ot be lo>t eight c{ by whaterer Government should obrain power. But he rogretted that there were persons whoso desiro it to be to m-ikn chios of Provincial Institutions—traitors in the camp — men who were anxious that tho Province should be overrun l>y a delude of anarchy and confusioi. lie did not know who tlioso persons were, he had no suspicion, but he believed there wore such persons. Ho could not help believing that whoever should ho at the helm of alfiiis, caution should bo taken against those v. hose avowed objeot was to scuttle the ship. He would advise those persons who were skulk'ng about those Institutions with a viw to destroy- them, that thoy should tako caro lest thoy should be snuffed out'themsolvcs. The whole of tho difficulty of the Province had been caused by past extravagance. Taxation was tho Nemosis whicli ever followed political extravagance There wero those who distorted their principles in tho face of their Own dejires, and this had gone on until tho Provinco had become involved to tho last degree. Although the question of ship monoy was narrowed to a contest for 40s. yet Uampden and those who acted with him were aware that more —that a great principle was at stake. He would not havo any sympathy with those who would be traitors to their own rights, aud tho rights of other;, and if as had been said such persons persisted, they would g out, be Bnuffed out, and they would go out with a stink ONKHUNOA WATEB RESERVES. Dr. Nichoibon moved, That an address be presented to His Honor the --nperintondent requesting him to withdraw from sale allotments Gaud 8, of section 14, in Onehunga, as advertised to be sold on tho 28th of January. Ho said that after what had been said by tho Provincial Socretary, and with the understanding that theso allotments would be handed over to the people of Onehunga at some future time, and that they be at present withdrawn from sale, he would not press tho motion. But he would like to make a few remarks in respoct to his Honor'j message, which appeared io him not at all satisfactory. It was doubtful whether the Provincial Government had power over those allotments; and with respoct to Major Heaphy, by many of the men best acquainted with tho settlement of the placo, Major Heaphy was not known in tho matter at all. But he believed that if those reserves were to be sold, it would be a great injury. Mr. Wyitn said that he understood tho hon. momber had withdrawn his motion.

Mr. Bucklind eaid that the Government's answer was not satisfactory; they did not say they would withdraw those allotments from sale, but that the sale was only postponed. Tho truth was those springs were as tho life-blood of the place. Cattlo were Bent there, or went thero for miles round to drink. i£vcn a potatoe could not bo boiled in Onehung without tho water being taken from these, springs. It would be mo3t improper to take these water reserves from the use of the public He would object to the motion being withdrawn. Mr. Wynn : When people talked in that way they should not expect that other pooplo were to pay for their water springs, to maintain their magistrates, to support their police, nnd so forth. If Onehunga would undertake tho responsibilities of a munictpality.ind support their own police ouc of their own funds, then they might bo entitled to say that tho springs were of right theirs. But let them contribute to their own support. Was the whole province to pay for their cattlo going to drink ? The Superintendent said if the inhabnunfa of Onehunga would form thcmsolves into a borough then he would hand over to them theso springs. If the motion were persisted in, then the Government would upon their motion, or he would move an amendment. He moved tho following amondment—" That a respectful adlress bo presented to hia Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to take tho necessary Bt.ipa under the Municipal Corporations Act, 1867, of the General Assembly, to ascertain whethor it is the desire of the inhabitants of the town of Onehunga to establish a municipal corporation for tho purpose ef local taxation and government under tho said Act. 2. That in the opinion ol this Council the sale of allotments 6 and 8 of Eection 14, in Onehunga, should be postponed with a view of reserving thoso allotments a» an endowment for°euch corporation if established." The Provincial M:caSTAKY said that he had distinctly stated that tho silo would bo withheld. Mr. Buckxand : The word u>od by the Provincial Secretary wa3 "postponed." He had hoard a speech in tho Council that day which he had regretted to hear. Hon. members were called traitors in tho camp, skulk 3, and no forth. Mr. Davy : I did not say that any lion, member of the Council was a traitor or u skulk. I spoko of principles and parties. If the cap fits anyone let him wear it. Mr. Btjckiand : I will wear tho cap, and I will tell that hon. member that a person who is capablo of making tuch wholesale charges as he has cast about him this day is not likely over to have influence in any deliberative assembly. It is told of some of the Monks of La Trappe that when they felt themselves about to dio they dug tho holes for their own graves. Something of tho'.'same kind the hon. member had done for his own political reputation. It was— Mr. Wynn rose to order. He desired the ruling of the Speaker whether it was in order to allude to a previous debate. I The SpEakeb thought that the hon. member for Raglan had travelled beyond the record. Mr. Dignan said he knew Onehunga better than j aho hon. gentleman opposite (Dr. NicholßOn). The Superintendent had a right to sell those reserves. \ The Government has as clearly'as possible promised j to withdraw the reserves from' sale with a view to constituting Onehunga into a municipality.

Mr. Buokland said he knew Onehunga when it was a thriving Maori settlement. He thought that the Superintondentwos going directly opposite to the known public opinion of the province. He did not blame him, it was the nature of the man, and he could not help it, Captain Fhazbb said that the pooplo of Onehunga ought to be glad to have Such valuable reserves handed over to them. He knew that in his part of the country,which waß a peninsula, there was a witer reserve which htfd been sold to a relative of his, and the whole country about was dependent on that man for their water privileges. Ho thought water privi legos of that kind most valuable to the people of Onehunga, and that they should be glad to know that they would he preserved for them. Mr. Clarke thought it was time to terminate the discussion. Ho thought if tho hon. member for the City East would withdraw his amendment, and the member for Onehunga would withdraw his motion, then tho matter would rost under the undertaking given by tho Provincial Secretary that the reserves would> not ba sold, and means might be taken to erect the town of Onehunga into a borough. Ayes, 13—Nicholson (toller), Oreighton, O'Neill, Ball, Martyn, Sheohan, Clarke, Taylor, Ball, Buckland, Munroe, Swunson, Farmer. N009,13 —Messrs. Wynn (teller), Gilfillan, Dignan, Newman, Cheoseman, Maclean, Hunter, Cooper, Frazer, Peacock, Kerr, W. bstor, Davy. Tho Speakeu said that the ayea were 13, the noes woro 13. It was his duty to give a casting vote on thi; question. Tho original motion, as he undsrstood from tho debate, proposed to reserve the allotments referred to absolutely from sale. The amendment purportod to postpone the sale conditionally on the town of Onehunga taking measures for incorporating itself. He would give the casting vote in favour of tho original motion, in the hopo that it might be tho means of unconditionally saving the allotments, with which he was personally acquainted, from being put up to auction. He believed that the allotments ought not to be diverted from publio purposes. Tho motion was accordingly carried by a majority of ono. SALE OP RESERVE- AT OBAKEI. Mr. IN'ewman moved. That in the opinion of this Council it not desirable to sell such reserves as the ono at Mount Hobson and Orakoi Bridge, and that a Tespectful Address be presented to His Honor the Superintendent requesting him to withdraw the notice for Bale. He said that he was mistaken with regard to Mount Hobson reserve, but that at Orakei was on» which was so situated that it would Lo favorable for many purposes. He thought that tho list acre of land ought not to bo sold. Ueserves might be kased so a3 to bring in Bomo revenue, hot the present was a time when everybody who had land, was trying to avoid putting it into tho market, a- it would r.ot fetch more than half its value. He thought that such reserves should bo preserved for an endowment for public purposes, or reserved for the purpose of education.

Mr. Keiui did not like to see those particular resorvCß doalt with in detail. Ho would like to see tho quo:4ion doalt with more by a wholesale resolu tion. Ho approved of the appropriating reserves for public purposes, particularly for oducation. Captain .Fbazeu thought tint tho mritter should be dealt with genernlly or not at all. The fact tint local magnates could get ui> and succeed in avirjg their on n special reserves withdrawn, was an injustice to the other parts of the country. Per.-ons might— ho mado no rofernnce to any particular person or land—desiro to have a reserve withdrawn, becauso that grass might bo had cheaper. Ho would move the provious question. The Provincial SECaBTAnr Baid that the land at Orakei was put up formerly, and then withdrawn at tho request of CoJ/mel Mould, who waH then engaged on tho erection of Orakei Bridge, " until the appro iches to thebridgo wore completed." Tho bridge and approaches had been completed some years ago. It was inconvoment that when the Government announced portions of land for sale, that piivato members opposed tho sale of particular allotments. Mr. A. Ci-m; thought it might bo inconvenient that private mombers should interfere in such a matter, but what were members for. He believed that the salo of land, which might yet have a lerge value at a future day, was a waste of property. Mr. Bucki.and said he would vote for the Government on the question. It was altogether different from the last. The having- those open commons was a nuisance, animals were allowed to wander over them, they woro nurseries for weedß. If there could be a cemetery obtained on land other than this land, ho would be glad lo see tha reserve sold. Captain Fbazxk withdrew his amendment, " the previous question." Mr. Ckbighton moved tho following amendment, " That a'l allotments advertised for sale on the 28th January, in Howick, Onehunga, Parnell, Brighton, North Shore, should be withdrawn." Mr. Wwk Baid that the question put by the amendment was totally different from either of the other questions. It was to say thai Government should not sell its wasto lands, and those open pieces of land were usually the resort of the stray cattle, goats, pigs, sheep, &c, much' to the inconvenience and the nuisance of the people living in the neighbourhood. Mr. Cheeseman said that the srle of the waste lands was a legitimate sonroe of revenue. He knew the piece of land referred to. There was a desire oxpresscd to havo a cemetery there, and if it could be sold for the purpose it would be well. There was another reservo in the hands of the General Government, but it would in time come into the hands of the Trovincial Government.

Mr. M&btii<~ would not vote for the amendment, bocauao it would bo unfair to dispose of the reserves at the hast Tamaki, and give the public the benefit of the money, when places in Parnell and other districts might have sufficient influence to get them withdrawn. Dr. Nicholson thought that if the hinds were leafed, the object of the morion would be gained, so that the land would be taken from public commonage. Mr. DiotfAN said the Superintendent had a perfect right to the revenue of the waste lands, which was an available asset. If the Superintendent were not allowed to rcalizo an available asset, how waß it to bo expected that the Government could pay its just dobts. Mr. Newman thought a great deal had been said about the ovila belonging to those unoccupied pieces of lands, but the leasing wnuld dispose of that. As to the land alongside, if belonged to the Crown, and would remain so, pending some futuro decision. As grazing on theso allotments, hia own cattle never grazed outside his own gates, and he had never been asked by any person so benefitted to take the course ho had adopted. The land would bo valuable. If Auckland was, as some hoped, to become the great capital of the southern hemisphere, there would be docks in that direction. Mr. Wynn : There is no end of them there already. (Laughter.) Mr. Newman, in conclusion, said that it was only because that thore was ao little land left, and that was so necoosary to be reserved for so mariy useful purpof e->, that ho made the motion. Question put—That all tho words aftor " that" in the original motion be struck out.—The motion was carried. Question put—That the words of the amendment, " that all the allotments advertised for Bale on the 27th January in Howick, Mount Eden, Newmarket, Paraull, Brighton, North Share, and that the reserves at Panmuro be dealt with in the same manner." —The amendment w„s negatived. The result of this division reduced the motion on the pupii- to the word " that." IIEPEAr. OF SHEEP ACT. Mr. Mac Lean moved, That the report of tho Select Committee on the Sheep Act Bepeal Bill, be adopted. Captain Fbazkti thought that although for some districts, the Act waß not necessary, at the same time there were other districts into which large quantities of stock were imported, and were wholly unprotected. Mr. Bucklaud seconded tho motion. He believed thai; they wero fast coming to the wholesome practice of looking after their own business. Ab to outplaces where stock was imported if the inhabitants asked the Government to appoint machinery for inspection, which would ho paid for by the people themselves, that would bi done. The motion was carried. JP.TITIOX EEPSBKED. Mr. TnEESKMAN moved, That the petition of Mr. R. Graham ho referred to the Committee on Petitions. Carried. •, , ■. The Council, at sis o'clock, adjourned for an hour. On the Council re-assembling. at seven o'clock, tho debate on the question of rescinding the vote on the resolution of the 9th instant. EDT/OATtOV. Kessage Ko. 14.—Adjourned debate on the amendment proposed to be made to the ques.ion, That the resolution come to by this Coonoil

on the 9th day of January instant, upon the education question, viz,—"That a respectful (address be -presented to liis Honor the Superintendent,' requesting him to send down to this Council a Bill to repeal the Education Act. 1857, and to introduce a new measure this session," be rescinded. ! And which amendment wa°, To leave out all the words after the first word " that," in order to add the following :— . "• A respestfnl address be presentoi to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to send down a new Education Bill on the basis of taxation." Captain Coopek said that the advantages of education were well known, whether compulsory or otherwise he would not say. Although the Prussian syßtem was compulsory, the Scotch system was permissive, and under the latter system the most satisfactory results hadheen obtained. 'I he advantages of a public school education were very much greater than could be gained by private education. He presumed that any education that might be adopted would be secular. He hoped that there wou'd be no further misuiiderntanding between the Council and the Executive. The ProYisciai, Fecbetar.y wished to inform the Council whnt the position of the Government was in respect to education. He would inform the hon. gontlemen opposite that there was no misunderstanding, for the Council must have known whst they were°doinsj by their vote; if they did not it was their fault. The Government were prepared to bring down a bill upon the basis of permissive taxation. He (Mr. Gilfillan) had come from Scotia:d, and know the great advantages of the ?C'-tch parochial sjatem. The Government would be no party to compulsory taxation. .Neither would the Superintendent be advised to repeal the existing Act until there was some other bill in its stead, for AuciUnd would not have the notoriety of being without some Act for education; ard moreover, if the existing Act were repealed, it would out off the claim of the teachers to their crown grants. Mr. Bail said by whichever way the |monoy was raised by the public, *he charge was a public one— the difference being between a direct and on indirect mode of raising the necessary funds. The religious difficulty waß perhaps the greatest, but he found in a report of the Bystem adopted in Canterbury that tho teachers in different schools were of different persuasions. He (Air. Ball) would say that public money .should be refused to schools the moment they assumed a denominational character. "Whatever bill was introduced it ought to be a temporary measure. Mr. Bttckiand said that the Government objected to repeal the present Act nntil another was obtained :n its plac.i. The stigma was greater in retaining the present Act than repealing it. He did not think there was power to tax for this purpose. He went thoroughly with the proverb—" With alt thy getting get understanding," but he felt the mode proposed would impede rather than assist education. Protection had been a great cry, but protection always injured what it attempted to benefit, whether it was commerce, religion, or education. In Prussia they were under the hosl of military rule and totally iucapnblo of free government. Men in society had duties as well as rights, Mid to take from them the responsibility ct doing their duty lessened the value they put upon their rights. The question was too large to trifla with, but he believed that state eontrul over the training of the young was tho surest mode of undermining tho liberties of the people. Ho agreed tint the tax f.hould be permissive, but he woul.l not allow any government interference. Mr. Swansox said he would support a permissive tax or any other lux for education. He never heard a greater amount of heresies than were contained in the last spoeeh. In America, whore a state school was found, no private school could compete with it. 3ft was vain for men to measure their own minds with the minds of the young, for the next generation would be ns far in advance of the present as the present is of tho past ono. But if a man wa3 hold bound to obey law it was the duty of tho state to enable those whom they held responsible to read the law. Tho state felt bound to soothe the exit of the aged out of life ; should not something he done for those who were just about to bear its burthens. He believed in a compulsory tax being at onco levied, and that all alike should b) made to contribute, but any tax for the purposo of education he would Bupport. Captain Fbazeh said that education was a question which ntfected the future. If the country was ever to become great, it must depend upon the education of the progeny of the present generation. Prussia was the most advanced of civilized nations ; her scientific and artistic attainments made her so. The needle gun and its results at Sadowa proved that. Education was a matter fjr which all should be taxed, as they were taxed for the punishment of criminals, and the support of the destitute. Mr. A. Martin said he would prefer compulsory taxation, but in the present condition of the finances of the province, it mighfnot be practicable. He was sorry to hear from the Government, th».t they would not adviie the repeal of the present bill until a new one was agreed to. Ho congratulated Mr. Swanson on his speech, which was one oi the best he had heard in that Council. Mr. Nbwmait aaid that as the Government had conceded the great point— Mr. WyKT : We have conceded nothing. Mr. Newman thought that a bill was necessary, and that, as the persons having charge of their children were the beer judges both of their wants and their means, a permissive taxation appeared to him to answer best in the circumstances of the province. There should be trained teachers. He hoped the Government would see their way to bring in a thoroughly effective measure.

Mr. Keek said the speakers generally were in favor of premissive taxation, so was he, but he would like to have seen the motion of Mr. Creighton carried and go hand in hand with pormissive taxation. The reserves, if well managed, together with a very small fee from the children, or some of them, would be sufficient to support a school in each district. If the reserves in the hands of the Government were made endowments for eehools they would be utilised at once, and be a present benefit as well as a great blessing to posterity. Mr. Clahke said he was anxious to see the question settled. He would vote with the hon. member for the Pensioner Settlements. He would not object to vote with the Government, but he waß -afraid that the system proposed would fail in parts where it was most required—in thinly populated districts. As to Scotland, there was no compulsory taxation, but there was provision made for a good teacher in each parish. Mr. Dionan moved an amendment to the effect that his Honor be requested to send down a new Education Bill upon the basis of permissive taxation instead. Mr. Wynn seconded the motion, and passed a high eulogium upon the speeches that had been made. He believed those speeches Bhowed that the Council were willing to accept the Government measure. Practically, therefore, the difference existing on the subject was buried. The only question was as between permissive and compulsory taxation aa the basis. Had a compulsory bill been brought down, he believed that tho country would r.ot have accepted it. The Government measure would shift the management of the schooU" altogether from the Superintendent. The object was not to give a state education, but to enable districts to raise money to educate their population. Nothing more was intended than to provide a good Bchool and a teacher, and afford the elements of education. Colonel Peacockb said the object of his amendment was to elicit the opinion of the Council as to the mode of taxation, and therefore he left the means open. As the Government had expressed a decided preference for permissive taxation, he would accept their amendment, but he was afraid that in many places the operation of the bill would be nugatory. He believed, however, there would be no objection in giving to the Highway Board the power of raising a compulsory rate. The amount might bo permissive, but tho rate itself could be compulsory. Dr. Nicholson said though he preferred that the rate should be compulsory, he would accept ttw Government amendment for a permissive rate. Mr. Buckland paid a high compliment to Mr. Swanson for hia speech, and acknowledged that something said by that hon. member would cause him to reconsider his opinions. As to a permissive tax, it would educate the older people, who would discuss the matter of education in every district. Mr. Cbeiqhtoit considered the Council was pretty well agreed. He preferred a compulsory rate. He feared that there would be wrangling and snarling over the rate, and in many places there would be no rate at all, and the Superintendent ought to have power to levy a rate where the inhabitants failed to do bo. He would support the amendmeufc of the Government, in the hope that they would not allow the denominational system to get into the bill. Mr. Kbbe said the inhabitants of Panmure had educated their children. Were they to be asked to teach the children of other districts ?

Mr. Crbighto>- said the inhabitants of that district hod the lion's share of the grant. Mr Keek, denied the atonement. He -would support the amendment of the Government. Mr. Dignan congratulated the Council upon the tone adopted during the discussion. Apart from that the Government felt bound to retain the present bill until some other law was obtained-in iia place. There was a sum ot £4£B which could not be placed on the estimates i* the existing Act had been repealed. He (Mr. Dignan) was proud of the part be took upon the carrying of the dieting Education Act. He heard a remark that the Government had yielded. There was no ridding—the Government had submitted its views, and they were acceptrd by theCouncil. Mr. Dignan'a amendment was carried. The Council adjourned at twenty-five minutes to 10 o'clock to-morrow.