PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

New Zealand Herald, Volume II, Issue 1127, 25 June 1867, Page 5

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

MONDAY, JUNE 23. The Speaker took the chair at 4 o'clock. The Clerk to the Council read the minutes of the p seeding Bitting, which were confirmed. petitions. Mr. Tayiok presented a petition from Bernard McLoughlan, relating to land. Mr. Stabk,_ oil behalf of Mr. EueHand, moved That the petition of Macnamara Bussell be referred to a select committee, consisting of Mr. Dignan, Mr. Kerr, Air. Stark, .Mr, Webster, and Mr. Wynn. Agreed to. MILITARY VIIIAGES AITD UNADJUSTED LAND CLAIMS. Captain Cooper moved, That such alterations and additions be made to the Land Eegnlations as will give effect to the following propositions, viz., (1.) To empower the Superintendent to Bet apart cei«

tain blocks of land, for military villages, as free grants to discharged soldiers and sailora who have served in the Province and have received no free grants of land. (2.) To empower tho Superintendent' to isauo laud orders to settlers who have left the United Kingdom, Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick, without land orders, for the purpose of settling in this Province ; provided thoy can givo such reasons as will satisfy the Superintendent that they left their former homes to settlo in this Province unior tho impression that thoy were entitied to receive land, and can give satisfactory roasons why thoy failed to obtain laud orders. He said that many soldieis deemed themselves ill used at not being made participators in grants which had been granted -to soldiers and sailors, merely because they had loft tho provinco a short time. It was very desirable to bavo settlements of which military men would form a part. The granting of land according to the terms of the second resolution would settlo a very vexed question.

't The Provincial Secretary hoped that tho hon. !l" member would allow these resolutions to remain at e the discretion of His Honor the Superintendent. Ho d would not opposo the motion, but thoy might bo the e basis of suggestions to bo dealt with at Wellington, it Thero vras reason to fear that in asking too much of the General Government, thev might got nothing. Mr. Ki:rk said that if military Bettlera such as indicated, could bo placed in cortain positions where they could of groat use, it would bo very dosirable. He hoped the Govommont would not upset this motion. Mr. Rowe said thero would have to be a c ommission to investigate the mattors arising uuder this head. Ho was quite suro there wore many equitable claims. It would bo dealt with moro satisfactorily k in some manner of that kind, rather than by mixing y it up with tho proposed alterations in tho Wasto if Lands Act. Captain Cooper said that his suggestions would E not ailed the proposed alterations. He knew that settlers in certain of tho outlying districts wero anxious to have such villages established among them. .Agreod to. Captain CoorEß moved, That it is the desire of this Council that such alterations shall be mado in tho Land Begulations as will empower tho Superintendent to grant land in lieu of money as payment for the construction of roads, bridges, wharves, ifcc., to tho full estimated value of the works done, instead of tho half valuo allowed by tho present law. He said that if tho motion wero passed, many places separated by native lands would bo connoctcd by roads, made at the expense of individuals with tho inducement which the motion offered.

The PitoviNCiAL Kecretaby thought tho motion too sweeping altogether. It was unwise to embody such clauses in the bill, lest tho bill would ho endangered. One-half was already given, and the Other wont to tho purposes of endowment. Mr. Albyk Marty.v, Mr. Sheeiian, and Mr. Cbeiqhton, opposed the motion, on the ground that ono half tho cost being allowed for endowments was a prudent arrangement. Mr. May said tho Council was told that the province was bankrupt, yet they proposed to give away a portion of the eßtate. Did not think tho payment of half cost of improvemsnts sufficient; considered the motion a right one, and would bo inclinod to support it. Mr. Eowb thought that individuals had very much less claim on the Council, for the reason that where they made a road or improvement, they would do so for their own especial benefit. In reply to Captain Cooper, ho said that tho natives themselves wero now setting apart land for this very purpose. Agreed to. LANDS AND rKODDOB BETUBNS. Mr. Cbbigbto.v moved, l l hat an address bo presented to His Honor tho Superintendent, requesting him to obtain and send to the Council a return in detail showing, up to date :—(1.) Quantity in acres taken up under tho Auckland Waste -Lands Acts, by military and forty-acre settlers. (2.) Quantity in acres occupied by tho aforesaid settlers, showing the number of acres fenced, and in crop, whether grass i or other description of crop. (3.) Quantity of land ! which has reverted to tho province under tho provisions of tho Auckland Wasto Lands Act. Thought there ought to bo something liko an , agricultural census, so that the progress of the province might be noted from time to time. TJnder tho Highways Act, might bo got up without much expense. If tho Highway Boards wero instructed that it would bo part of their duty to send in such returns half-yearly, of acros fenced and in crop, whether in grass or in crop. In Otago these returns were mado to the Provincial Councils. Ho did not press his motion, as it would involvo considerable expense just at the present time. He merely wished to elicit an expression of opinion. Mr. Stark said that such a motion mado was a cry against the principle of retrenchment. He thought the motion was intended to dovetail into the hon. member's (Captain Cooper). It was an excellent electioneering motion. Captain Cooi>ee : I moved that resolution years ago. Mr. Stabk : The hon. gentleman has chosen an excellent time to move it again, Mr. Rowe said if the motion passed the Govern ment could not carry tho resolutions into effectSir. HrNTEB supported the motion. Ho believed the intention was to obtain tho information from local boards, which tho papers would very readily publish. Mr. Web3tbh opposed tho motion. Tho members of lo r al boards had already too much to do. Mr. Mat thought tho expense overrated. He would support tho resolutions, and allow tho Government ro do what it could with them. Mr. A. Mabtyn- (lid not think tho oxpenso would be very great. The Boards would hardly refuse tho information. The information would bo very desirable. Mr. Cbeigiitox asked leave to withdraw his motion. WASTE IAND 3 ALTERATION. Captain Cooi'EE moved, That the following provision he mado in tho proposed Land Regulations, viz., " That settlers already in the Province shall be allowed to select land under the same conditions as settlers who may come from Australia or elsewhere." Mr. Siieeiian" thought that the Government had assented to somo such proposition. Mr. Howe : The Government assents to tho proposition that tho sonß of old settlers who had come years ago and had no land should havo the privilege. But the Government could not assent that persons already having thousands of acres should come in under tho regulations. Mr. Husteh said if tho sons of old settlers wero to be entitled, how about the daughters of old settlers. Mr. Kowe : Get married, and havo a life interest in one of the grants. Colonel Peacocke said tho motion had a ve y ad caplandum aspect. Mr. Stakk said tho series of resolutions put by tho hon. member were very taking out of doors, but they wero vague. Ho (Mr. Stark) also considered that the host settlers must bo thoso young folks who were brought up in the province, but ho thought tho Governmont wero ready to do justice to such persons. Mr. May said the hon. member (Captain Cooper) did not seo the wide door for abuse his motion left open. Mr. Swansox thought the object of the motion was tu utilise materials of wealth that was at hand as well as that coming from abroad. If a man coming from abroad was entitled, then why not the man born in the colony. But tho test of settlement was improvement, cultivation, return. could have too much land if he could make a good use of it. He thought that tho motion admittedof the interpretation thi»t settlers wero going to divido all tho lands among themselves. He would advise the hon. gentleman to withdraw it. He would voto with the Government against it. Mr. Stakk hoped that when it came to giving lands away tho Volunteers should not he forgotten. They had been promised land some years ago. They had gone through a great amount of hardship, and deserved well of the Government. Captain Coopeb withdrew his resolution. His object, he said, was that the idea would be embodied in the proposed land bill. LAUD TAX. Cuptain Cooper moved, That lands selected undor tbo proposed land regulations shall be taxed at the rate of sixpence an acre per annum, to be paid in advanco to the Chairman of Highway Boards, such moneys to be expended in the district iu making Toads. Mr. Aims Maktyn thought the principle right, but the figure too high; when, pernaps, under the Highway Beard the land might be taxed at half-price. Mr. Sheehan thought it waa time enough when people came. There would be no inducement to settle on land which they knew would be taxed at 6d. per acre. Colonel Peacock proposed an amendment to the effect that such land, or land held in anticipation of Crown grants, shall be liable to whatever tax is levied by the Highway Boards of the district.

i Mr. Dionan opposed both tho motion and the amendment. Ho thought it most undesirable to • S?, 60 ' a now So ' t ' er with a tax of this description. J. ho new settler -was bound down to two years' occupation. Mr. Wynn said there was no reason for putting the man who had his feo simple in his pocket in a better position than the man who had not. Thero was no right to taxuntil the person was in possession of a .Crown grant. If they wero going to bring people from overy where and " elsewhere," thoy ought n6t to put a demand for sixpenco an acre. He was very glad tho Government gave their opposition to this measure. Stahk hoped that tho hon. gentlemen would withdraw tho resolution and the amondment. Thero was great disliko to the tax collector: There were absentee landlords in respect to whom some legislation should ho applied. Those monopolists bought up land, thoy went to England, and in the course of years, by tho industry of their neighbours, they camo into large fortunes. Perhaps the present was not the time to deal with those absentees, but something ought to be dono. Mr. Every Maclean opposed the motion and amendment. It was not the intention to give a man land and then to tax it five per cent. Mr. Mat said tho hon. member (Mr. Wynn) gave the truo principle. A man should be taxed for somothmg that he had, and not for something that no had not. Colonel Peacocke withdrew his amendment. Question put, tho Houso divided, when there appeared—Ayes, 1; Noes, 22. • eeturn 01' crown grants. Mr. Swanson moved, That an address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, asking him to procure and send down to this Council:—(l.) A return of tho number of unsatisfied applications for Crown grants in tho office on the Ist of January, 1867. (2.) Tho number of applications received from tho Ist of January to the*3lst of May, inclusive. (3 ) Tho number forwarded for the Governor's signature from the Ist of January to the 31st of May. (4.) The number of unsatisfied applications remain ing in the office on the 31st of May, 1867. Mr. Kowa wished to bo informod whether tho motion included confiscated lands ? Mr. Swanson : Provincial lands. Mr. Ckeighton wanted to know whether the confiscated lands having been given back to the General Government, t!,ey paid those expenses. Mr, Howe said that the General Government paid all tho expenses of tho confiscated lands. Agreed to.

SICK AND DESTITUTE. Mr. Swan son" moved, That the evidence given before, and tho report by, the Commission appointed i by the Superintendent to enquire into tho administration of the fund for the relief of tho sick and destitute, be printed. He said that the documents were most important, and would afford the Council an opportunity of coming to somo decision upon this most important question before next session. Tho motion was agreed to. SESSION XXI. The Pbovincial Secretary, in roply to questions by Mr. "Wynn, Baid that tho Government held this to be a distinct session. The Council might adjourn to-morrow (Tuesday). FINANCIAL STATEMENT. Tho Peovincal Treasures (Mr. Gilfillan) moved, That the Council do resolve itself into a committee of the whole, for the purpose of considering the estimate of revenue and expenditure for the remainder of the year 1867. Tho motion was agreed to, and Mr. J. O'Neill waß called to the chair. The Provincial Tbeasureb addressed tho committee as follows: —Mr. O'Nioll, —In my capacity as Provincial Treasurer, I have to lay before the committee a statement of the financial condition of tho province. I confess frankly that I havo not been able to maßtor this subject in tho short time that has elapsed since my appointment. Indeed, my appointment is as yet scarce ten days old, and I am, therefore, obliged to depend on figures furnished to mo, rather than as it would have been had I more time to consider tho whole question of provincial finance, bo prepared to mako a statement of facts and figures, the whole of which I had fixed in my mind. Therefore, I labour under some difficulty in putting a conciso and plain statement before you as I could wish. The first of thoso papers is calculated, from tho thirty-first of December to tho thirtyfirst of May, but for tho refnaining seven months of the year we can only arrive at an approximation of the results of the present year. Indeed, the question is much tho samo as a question of rule of three, and resolves itself into this form, "if fivo months of tho year have yielded so much, what will bo yiolded by tho remaining seven months?" I can assure tho Council that for the remainder of tho year tho revenuo will not he increased. I have also this explanation to make, that eoveral of tho amounts of salary which havo been paid in Juno, woro actually duo in Slay, and therefore they havo been brought into tho account for Moy. Tho greatest decrease in revenue has been in tho Customs. In round numbers I may estimato tho revenue for tho seven months, from the Ist of Juno of this yoar to tho 3lst of December next, at £46,000. There is an amount duo by the General Government of 3,400 somo odd pounds, which tlioy owed us sinco their operations in the Waikato, and of this £1,000 havo been paid, and thoro is a correspondence now going on claiming the remainder of tho amount duo, which would make tho revenue about £IS,OOO. Against that tho estimated total expenditure will amount to—but will not, I

tliinlc, exceed—say £52,000, less reductions which I will explain to the Council directly. Wo propose making tlio expenditure £2,172 less than it has bec-n. I will explain in some detail the reductions and alterations which will commence on the Ist of Jul}' next. First of all, wo luive decided that, with tho exception of ofticcs where two or threo departments have been combined or consolidated, there shall bo a reduction from all salaries of £250 a year, and upwards of 20 per cent, for the half voar. The first saving I may mention is one of £SO upon the ollice of treasurer, that having been annexed to tho office of Provincial Secretary. Then tho Provincial Accountant's salary ia £375, and taking ten per cent, off that for tho half year, will leavo £37 10s. We proposo dispensing with a clerk in the Treasurer's office, wloae salary was £175, and upon thid there will bo a saving of £87 10s., making in that department a total saving of £175 in tho halfyear. Then as to tho Public Works Department, it will be in tho recollections of lion, members —or rather, T would say, if they will bo pleased to look to tho correspondence laid before tho House on this subject—some time ago tho Government offered to tho Knginee«'-in-Ohief tho caro and superintendence of the Telegraph, and the Engineer-in-Ohiof was willing that tho £150 a year, which he was to reeeivo from the General Government for discharging that duty should go as part payment of his £800 a year thus reducing the amount to bo paid to him by tho province to £650 a 3 ear, representing a saving on the half year of £75, and the Government havo informed him that they did not see their way to retaining his services any longer than the close of the present year, even at the reduced salary. The services of the Assistant-Engineer at £300, and clerk and draughtsman at £220, and clerk, &c., £180, would bo dispensed with, effecting anavingof£3aoon tho half-year. It is intondod to get the assistance of a draughtsman from another department by which the saving will ho increased to £414. Next is the departments under the heading " Police," and " Gaol." Tho salary of the Commissioner was £<100 a year which it is not intended to reduce as that gentleman also held the office of visiting justice and inspector of prisonß, and considering that he also maintained a horso at his own expense, nothing being allowed for forage or personal expenses of any kind in tho discharge of these duties. It had been tho intention to reduce the number of warders in Mount Eden Gaol by ten, but on consulting the acting gaoler it was found more desirable that only five warders should be dispensed with, and five men would be taken from the police, thus effecting a saving of £1080. Tho engineer of the stone-breaking machine would also be dispensed with, effecting a saving of £104, .making a total in this department of £1,184. Tho£lnspector of Sheep and Cattle had a salary of £300,"from which, deducting 10 per cent., would effect a saving of £30. Under the heading " Harbour," the Port Master and Chief Pilot, whose salary is £400, deducting 10 per cent, would cfifeot a saving of £40—the Manukau Harbour Master and Pilot at £250, less 10 per cent, would give a saving of £26; also the Harbour Master and Pilot, £250, less 10 per cent, giving*' a saving also of £25, making a total saving in these items of £112. The Commissioner of Waste Lands was also a "Visiting Justice and Inspector of Prisons, and Commissioner of Grown Lands, and it was not intendei to bring his salary under the "10 per cent, reduction. The ceß of Waßte Lands Commisaioner and Commissioner of

Crown Lands had been amalgamated. Something had been said respecting the Provincial Surveyor, to which I will allude more particularly. X will only 8 a? thai the hon. gentleman, to whom I have already alluded, is not.going to the General Assembly on his own account, but he will probably be the only representative of the provinco in the Legislative Council, and I think it most important that some person having a voice on behalf of the province should be present at the deliberations of the Legislative Council. And now with regard to the Provincial ourveyor, his salary is £500 a year, which, being Drought undor the 10 per cent, reduction, will give a saving of £50. I think it right to explain in reference to this officer, that when he became a candidate for a vacant seat in the House of Representatives, he asked his Honor the Superintendent whether there would bo any objection to his becoming a candidato, and the answor given to him was that so long as provision was made for the discharge of his duties, and the public service did not suffer, that there appeared to be no real objection— Mr. Creigieton : By whom was thiß provision to be made, by the hon. gentleman himself, or by the Government ? Mr. Swanson : What is half-pay, may I aßk ? The Peovinoiali Treasurer : By the gentleman himself, and moreover, Major Heaphy expressed a wish that the half-pny should not be received by him, but handed over to the Government. The Provincial Treasurer explained that when any officer obtained leave of absence for any term, it was customary for him to draw half pay. This Major Heaphy surrendered, as well as providing for the discharge of his duties. The surveyor and custodier of plans, £360, less ten per cent., left a saving, £36; first draughtsman, £350, less ten per cent., gave a saving of £35 ; draughtsman at £200, reduced in the Bame proportion, left a saving of £20. The total saving in this department was £91. The Provincial Solicitor at £400— reduced £40. The Provincial Solicitor, by an arrangement with a former Superintendent, was to have, in addition to the amount voted for his office, certain fees for cases which ho conducted through the Courts. He holds the office still under that arrangement, but he has been informed that on and after the 30th instant, the existing arrangement as to fees as well as the rate of salary will cease, and be subject to a fresh adjustment. This .will effect a considerable saving, but to what amount cannot be estimated at present. I say this in order to show that in every way possible we are determined to reduce and effect as great a saving to the province as we can. I may state also, in answer to a question that has been put to me, that it is the intention of the Government that the Provincial Solicitor shall have a salary only; or, if it is necessary to bring cases into Court, that some professional gentleman may be employed to act for the Government. Mr. Ckeighton : Is it meant that the duties of the Provincial Solicitor shall include his services as counsel in court, or those of a solicitor only, for both duties are perfectly distinct. Pbovinciai, Treasurer : That is the question upon which we have not been able to decide. Thus the gross amount of saving that we will be able to effect, is £2,172. These reductions will bring the expenditure down to £49,825, as against £48,000 odd, which will, indeed, leave a balance slightly on the wrong Bide it is true, but if we can- get the heavy burdens, which have been laid upon us at Wellington removed, then we will be in a far better position. I hope that the next time I shall have to make a statement of this kind, it will be of a somewhat brighter character, and will be the morq bright, because of its contrast with the gloomy features of that which I am now obliged to make. I beg, therefore, to move, that the committee having heard the statement of'the Provincial Treasurer, approves of the reductions made for this half-year-and for the half-year commencing on the first of July proximo. Mr. Wikh begged to aßk the Provincial Treasurer whether the Government were advised that they had any right to make these reductions, and dispensing with services summarily in the way indicated, for if they had not, their proposals were anything but a reduction, and might be attended with very serious consequences. The Provincial Treasttker said he would refer

tho hon. gentleman to tho ninth cluuso in the Provincial Government Act, which provided that the appointment of all officers, clerks, and other persons employed by the Provincial Government was vested in the Superintendent; except in such cases as were otherwise provided for, and all such appointments were held during pleasure. Mr. Wynn* : What I usk is whether the Government has been advised that that Act binds ? Tho Provincial Treasurer : Wo are prepared to abide by it. Mr. Wy.vx : Then I shall move that the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow. There had been d manuscript paper put on the table, but not one word about those reductions appeared in it. Does tho hon. gentleman mean to tell us that the Assistant Engineer is to bo sent about his business at a moment's notice. There are' things which I want to look into, and which I think tho Council should have an opportunity of looking into. "With regard to my hon. friend hero, I see no reason why he should be paid £400 a-year for duties which are to be done by deputies ; and if t.he duties can be done for nothing they could hardly bo wofth anything ; and if the duties of Major Heaphy could be done for half-pay, what was tho use of saying that every salary above a certain amount was to be reduced 20 per cent. Was the salary of the Superintendent to bo touched ? If there was to be a reduction at ali, it should havo

been greater. I remember when provi-ions were dearer thero was a bonus of 15 per cent, given to every employe of the Government. I ask the Provincial Treasurer to contrast the present rate of rental, tho prices of provisions, &c., with what then prevailed, and whether the present reduction was commensurate. Tho statement of the hon. gentleman was admitted to be imperfect, and therefore these reductions ought to be before tho Council in a printed form. If the Council would not consent to an adjournment, let the thing go and with them be the responsibility, but they must not afterwards s:iy that the Government consented to what had been done. I Tf we aro prepared to go further, as I think wo arc I prepared, then lot us have time to consider how far wo can go to consider tho principles of such reductions. If we can get a gentleman to do for nothing what wo aro giving £400 to do, then let us consider why we should give £400 for doing it. Mr. Rowe said it appeared to him that the hon. and learned gentleman had expended a great deal of fury quito unnecessarily. No objection was made to the adjournment, lhoro was another large return yonder, which it was the wish of the Government the hon. gentleman and tho Council should have ample time to consider. In the next Council the executive w uld be better able to come down to the Council with things shaped out in regular parliamentary form. It was the wish of the executive that the Council should have the fullest information. If hon. gentlemen wished the papers printed, let them be printed, and placed in the hands of tho hon. gentleman and members of the Council as Boon as possible. The Provincial Treasurer wished to explain that, as to notices to persons in the employ of the Government, a communication was sent to every head of department in April last, to tho effect that he should inform all in the department to be prepared that they were liable to a change, and that their services might be dispensed with. The Engi-neer-in-Chief was retained, because it was argued that he had a legal olaim that as long as he remained in the service of the Government liia salary was to remain at £800 a year, and the object was not to give reason for complaint. Tho reductions were not made for the purpose of impairing, but of preserving the Provincial Government, and he trusted that action would be taken in the General Assembly that would relieve the province from a large portion of the burthens inflicted on it under the Loan Allocation Act. In the next Council there would be responsiMj Government. Mr. Wynn wished to know whether the £150 paid to the Engineer would not be charged against the proviroa ? Mr. Kowe : No ; and the General Government has, for works done by the Engineer-in-Chief, paid the half of his salary during the past half year. Mr. Cheighton : Then the province has got an exceedingly good bargain: The Provincial Secretary said that he might not have made himself clear. The Engineer-in-Chief obtained £650 a year, and £150 from the General Government. Mr. Bowb (in reply to Mr. Creighton): And during the past half year tho General Government paid a sum equivalent to half his salary. Mr. Creiohon said that certain pet office* and officers had.' been guarded to pluck others. He looked upon the Waste Lands office as an imposture. All that was wanted was a coupl« of clerks to make

out grants for the next two years. Surveys tad been made three times over, and overlapped each other. Did not see why 'here should be district surveyors, Northern district surveyors, unless they proposed to cut up the little land that "was ltfc into 20 or 40 acre allotments. There was not employment for one-fourth the Btaff in that office. He did not believe in 20 per cent, reductions. Better have a few good men who -would be paid a decent salary there would be more work done, and it would be better done. Then the manner in which five warders and five policemen were struck off. In this there was only an apparent saving, and not an absolute saving for five policemen ware to do duty in the gaol. He admitted the police were a very superior class of men, at the same time it was a mere transfer and not a saving. Mr. Newman thought there should be an adjournment, so ■ that the views of hon. gentlemen in the Executive should know move of the mind of the Council, and enable them to come to a decision. ' Mr. Stark thought the figures were very important and could not be calmly considered unlesß members had them in print before the Council. Mr. A. Mabtyn thought the matter could be settled without adjournment. There would be very little alteration whatever might be said. Mr. Bowe assured the Council that the Executive was only anxious to collect the opinions of the Council upon the subject of the reductions. He had no objection to the adjournment. On the motion of Mr. Wiiin it was ordered the several papers be printed. Ihe motion to report progress was agreed to, and ask leave to Bit again to-morrow (this day} was agreed to, and the Council adjourned at a quarter past S o'clock.