PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

New Zealand Herald, Volume IV, Issue 1125, 22 June 1867, Page 5

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

FBIDAY, JUNE 21. The Speaker took the chair at 3 o'clock. The Clerk read the minutes of the previous sitting, which -wore confirmed. PETITIONS. i>lr, Bucexakd presented a petition from Macna-m?-r!r u , 3Be \'' G.E., praying for consideration and relief, he having been dismissed from his situation under Government with insufficient notice. Captain Cooi?ek presented a potition from Robert David James relating to land. Mr. Wynn presented a petition from Frederick Alexander relating to land. estimates. Mr. Newman* asked a question with reference to a return of estimated expenditure, whether it would be sent down. The Provincial Secretary hoped the return would be before the Council on Monday. The Provincial Accountant had found the making up the return a more laborious task than he anticipated, having to " dove-tail," bo to speak, accounts for three months of the last year into five months of the present. It was the intention to bring down the account made up to the 31st of May last. UIinAEY HOOKS. ■M r; Oheesmlas inquired, with the permission of the Speaker, whether any member was in possession of a report on railways under the authority of the Government of Sydney, to which also there was appended a very valuable report by Mr. Witten, the engineer-in-chief of that colony. The Sfeaker said the volume was in the library only a few days ftnce, and he would be obliged to the hon. gentleman having it if ho would return it. CASE OP MR. TUCK.WEEL. Mr. WYNN asked when the papers relating to Mr. Tuckwell's case would be sent down. The Provincial Secretary said the papers were being copied. Mr. Wynn said he would want the originals. He might have summoned a member or officer of the Government to' produce the papers. PROPOSED ALTERATIONS IN TUB WASTE LANDS ACT. The PeovinoiAl Secretary, pursuant to notice, rose to move the following resolutions : That in the opinion of this Council it is expedient that provision should be made, in any alteration of the existing land regulations of the province of Auckland, for carrying out the following purposes, viz.:— 1. That persons emigrating at their own cost, from the Australian colonies, for the purpose of settling od, and bona Jide occupying land in the province of Auckland, should be entitled to land orders, in terms of clause 69 of the Waste Lands Act, 1858. 2. That a bona Jide occupation of two years, at least, of any land selected by holders of land orders should be required prior to their re ceiving a crown grant. But that any holder of such land order should be permitted, during the period allowed for its presentation, or during the period of his occupation of such land, to purchase the same at the rate of ten shillings an acre. 3. That the issue of land scrip to persons possessed of capital emigrating to settle on lands within the province of Auckland should be authorised, in the proportion of 10 acres to every £100 of capital shown to bo poaEeßsod by Buch persons. 4. That the issue of land scrip for public works performed under the Highways Act, 1867, should be authorised, and that one moiety of the land acquired by the exercise of such scrip should be required to be set apart and reserved as endowments for the improvement of roads within the highway districts. He said that the resolutions embodied the principal points which the Government desired should find approval of the Council. They were simple, for they only facilitated the operation of the existing regulations in a particular direction and with a special view. The discussions of the last two evenings had narrowed the question considerably ; indeed, it came to the question whether they were to colonise the province or not. Many objections had been made to the forty-acre system, but it should be recollected that many hon. members had themselves assisted in passing those regulations, and during the nine years that they were in existence no step had been taken to have those clauses repealed. It appeared to him that shipping agents had availed themselves of these regulations as an auxiliary means of advertising, and so many persons had been brought to New Zealand unfit for colonial life. No blame of this kind was attributable to the agents sent home by the Government; but on the other hand a great number of very valuable colonists had been brought to the province, and those who were so suited were excellent and successful settlers. What might the settlers of Waipu, and the Nova Scotia settlers generally say of the country—people who had come from a climate where snow and ice bound them round the greater part of the year.. But again war began and swept.away many, if not all, the opportunities which would have presented themselves in duo time, and diverted those who would employ their industry in the land to other pursuits. As to the scarcity of land, he (the Provincial Secretary) would say that there was land to be had, and the province was rapidly acquiring more. Collateral advantages would arise from immigation, accompanied with capita], for the revenues would increase, and this addition to its means would enable it to obtain more land. He (Mr. Gilflllan) had heard from his honorable colleague (Mr. Rowe) that he remembered a time when men worked for 2s. a day, but it was known that persons receiving Government rations thought themsolves badly off when receiving 4s. a day. He would bo able to give a good illustration'of this by reading a passage from a let'er he had received from a person who had taken a great interest in this province, and was shortly to procccd to England. The writer said were such a scheme as proposed worth trying, he would do his best to farther the object, and he thought he could send out eligible parties. One person whom ho knew could land with £1500 in his pocket, and he had a family of nine sons all capablc of going on the land, and lie suggested also that labour should bo made to represent capital, that is to say, he would be entitled to 150 acres for his £1500, and '10 acres for the sons. He would read part of the communication, which was as follows : " Should your Honor think that some such scheme,as proposed by me would be worth trying, I will do my best, and I doubt not of being able to send many eligible parties. One party now at home is waiting to hear from us ; he says lie could land with £1500 in his pocket. He has a very large family (1 beliero 9 sons) all capable of assisting in the farm. In such a case I would take tho liberty of suggesting that labour should, to a certain extent, bo made to represent capital, that is to say, if by proving that ho had £1500, he would be entitled to 150 acres, I would givo in addition a further grant of 40 acres for oach of the sons, or 510 in all, the whole to be granted to the head of the family. Supposing a scale were adopted of giving 100 acres per thousand pounds, this would be placing tho man with 9 sons, and only £1500, on the same footing as a party with £5000 without labour, and 1 think properly so. I would only make the grant to the head of the family ; this would prevent the united strength of the family being divided by each one betaking himself to his allotment. It would not be desirable to give the grant until at least threo years residential occupation, and a certain proportion of land was cleared, fenced, and cultivated. It would be to the interest of all parties to keep together for that time." It was said that there wa3 no reason to offer inducements to persons from the other colonies, and that no advantage should be offered to them to which those in Auckland were entitled. But the question here was what could bo obtained from tho Assembly and the Southern members, and there was danger that in asking too much they might get nothing. Then, again, it was said that men with capital would not come. Well, then, there was no harm done, and the province was no worse off; but if they did come, then it was evident that two very important elements of prosperity were introduced. The hon. member for Franklyn, who was the great champion of Separation, said he would sacrifice the ties of private friendship for it. Mr. Maiityn dissented. The Provincial Secretary : Tho hon. member had proposed his amendment the other day in hostility. Mr. Marttn : I believe I did it rather in favour of tho Government. The PbOvikciali Secretaby: Well, whatever might be the intention, he was sure that the object of the Government was solely to do good for the province. •It was to secure for the possessor of moderate capital .the opportunity of settling upon his own land and to cultivate. The poet had said— '111 fares the land to haat'ninc ills a prey, Whore wealth accumulates, but men decay It was to the supply of a class of holders of moderate sized-farms that the Government were prepared to • give tncouragement. Mr. BpckXiAKd said he could not compliment thel , Provincial ;i Secretary- on ' he pitiable exhibition of!

statesmanship he had made. He seemed to think that several important things were to be feared—largo lccndholding was moußtrous, and capital was a tugbear. (Loud cries of no, no.) The PEOYiNcrAii Secretary : No. Mr. Bttckland : Yes. Capital was held to be a bugbear. But the Government might rest assured that theie was a yellow flag over the province as disastrous as pestilence or war—a yellow flag which would warn capital off, for capital would not come to countries highly taxed. There was something said of going down to "WVlington combined. It should be recollected that faction begot faction ; that one faction begot a second, and that second mostly the stronger, and thus it was that some honorable members seemed to be in lamentable ignorance of the progression of cause and effect. He was not disposed to • hold the Government responsible for the result of the present discussion but ho would hold them responsible for the carrying out of a beneficial policy. What information had been given to the Council? What evidence of public documents had been furnished ? Et(Mr. Buckland) was not prepared to p>w_ca documentary evidence on the other side, but the burthen of doing so did not lie with- him (Mr. Buckland.) He contended that the system was vicious ; that parts of the province was as great a wilderness as ever it was. It was said the war had prevented the working of the system and the advantages arising from it which had been expected. But it," was not the war. They were told to go to Rang£« awhia and what they would see. "Well, ho (Sir. Bucfcland) went to Rangiawhia and found it what had been described, a wilderness. There was only one man (Major Jackson) who had done anything worth notice." The whole thing was bad. The laws of political economy were little understood in this part of the world. The laws of social economy' were equally misunderstood or not apprehended. Both were reducible to a strictly scientific formula. He remembered a speech in Hansard delivered in 1845, the year when Sir George Grey was Bent to New Zealand. He (Mr. Buckland) would take care that speech Bhould be before the public before long. After all the injury that it had done, again and again the Government would have recourse to it. That was the conduct of the drunkard, which after his debauch demanded the portion of the evil which had destroyed bim. If they wanted to sell their land, let them sell it openly and without reserve ; let it fetch its fair value. The present system did not encourage settlement, but the contrary. He begged to move an amendment, That it ic ,*ot expedient to make any alterations in the Waste Lands Act at present. Captain Cooper said that the Government was not the first Government, nor New Zealand the first country, to introduce colonists. The Greeks and Bomans had adopted it with success. But the truth waß that these regulations were devised to aid the many to come and settle and till the land, and was a preventive of the land being swallowed up bu the cupidity of the few. (Bear, and cheers.) Where the forty - acre system failed, it was owing not to any defect in itself, nor to the regulations, but the General Government, had caused a rush to come into the colony to suit their own temporary purposes. (Cheere.) So far from the system having worked nine years it was checked in the third year, but it was, perhaps, owing in some sort to mismanagement; and as for the hon. gentleman opposite, he was on the tenches yonder when the half million loan was obtained and wasted. Was it Baid there was no return ? what ofthe timber, the impe. tus to trade, and business, and other accessions of prospority. Perhaps the thing was overdone, but that was not the fault of the system, but the strained use of it. Leaving the hon. gentleman, he trusted that the Governmen i.vould carry out the several clauses in their integrity, that they would promote the development of the road system, that they would give the full amount of land scrip for improvements and that those who had sons %nd could give them capital to go upon the land should be placed in the same position at> those contemplated by those regulations. He trusted that the House would not be led away by any attempt to impress them with the gloomy view of the hon. member opposite. The proposal would enable the Government to obtain capital. The Superintendent was elected in the hope that he would initiate something of this sort, and if an appeal were made to the country, he would be backed by a very large majority. Mr. Joseph May was of opinion that the Council was not in a position to extend the 40 acre system a. present. There was not the means of carrying it on. -Enough land had not been brought into the market It was stated in Melbourne that if this colony offered 50 acres to induce persons to leave there, they would offer double the quantity to induce people to go there, and it seemed to him better to emigrate from " here to there," rather than from " there to here.' c Something had been said about large capitalists, but it should be remembered.that capital was the only means in an undeveloped country of employing labour. It was easy to talk of sheep and cattle and large land-holders, but it should not be forgott n that sheep and cattle wore tho pioneers of agriculture, and of civilization, and prepared the land for the laying down of grain. Mr. Bows said he would not detain the Council at great length. He would be content to leave his place for better men if better men would undertake to carry on thebusinessoftheprovince. Ho had notpossessed either the tulent, time, or training, tor the study of political science. But since that was not the case he had to do his duty. Had been accustomed to deal with men of talent and of experience of every-day life, and there was good reason te believe that the man who best applied this experience, and the principles which governed every-day lil'e was the man fitted to curry on the business of Government. Such a man would first think what would be the soil, the climate, the special conditions by which he was surrounded. He would apply his knowledge, the more he had of it tho better, to deal differently with different elements. A Voice : Knuri gum. Mr. Howe : Well, send a strong man with a pick, to dig it out. No doubt tho sheep and cattle improved the Irfnd they depastured. Certain portions of New Zealand were fit for thi3 purpose, but would Mr. Buckland put his sheep and cuttle on a scoria mountain, or in the heart of a forest ? No doubt there were certain portions of land which was fertile. It was not Bought to hinder investment in tho land, or buying from natives. If auybedy chose to buy land irom the natives let him do eo, and he (Mr. | Rowe) would rejoice to see the large capitalist getting a return for his capital. But for tho small capitalist as an agriculturist, this province was eminently fitted. There was no land more suited for agriculture for the small capitalist. He (Hr. Rowe) was not accustomed to sing of crystal fountains and silvery streams ; he believed his hon. friend Mr. Newman sang in that strain when he was in England. (Loud laughter.) Yet he had seen in the old country men, worn with care, whom a settlement in a land, which he believed wa3 destined to be eminently happy and prosperous, would have been a hope to look forward, with an endeavour to fulfil it. It was said that they, the Government, were about to bring people here under false pretences, because they had no land. He could tell that hon. gentleman that they had 600,000 acres, which, by amending the regulations in the Waste Lands Act, would be made available. It was not intended to bring persons who would be allowed to stay in Auckland in listless idleness, or would renounce tho bargain they had made, but people who would go at once on the land, and it was by population and the cultivation of the soil, as well as by population and capital, that prosperity was to be secured. The curse of the province was not tho forty-acre system, but that which had arrested that system. What good the Bystem was calculated to effect could be seen in the northern portion of the province. He (Mr. Rowe) believed in the principles contained in the resolution. If he (Mr. Rowe) were as well educated, as well read in political and social economy as the hon. member for iiaglan, he might think differently. But he believed that these resolutions were consistent with the principles which usually guided common sense and every-day experience. He could say for himself and colleagues that they would do their best. Next session ho trusted that there would he a definite policy to submit to the Council. Bosponsible Government could he onlfcby party, but though it might be Government £>y party, he trusted that would not divide them, but strengthen and consolidate their common purposes. Mr. Newman said the hon. member had paid him an undeserved compliment, for he had never been able to sing in his life. (Laughter.) No doubt people in many, perhaps in most instances, complained of coming to a new country, and expressed dissatisfaction, but that waß generally the effect of transplanting—as in the caae of a plant—so it was with a human being, the change was first rathev severely felt. He might ay that he (Mr. Newman) had never yet been repro iched by any person whom. ■ be had caused to come to the colony, that he had.

made any misrepresentation. As to tho forty-acre system, the principle was right, though a failure had arisen from two causes. Ho (Mr. Newman) had elways regretted that there was not sufficient good and accessible land to oll'or. Of all things tho most cruel was to bring nersons to a country like Now Zealand, and then t people should find that tho expectations thoy had formed, or which tho offer implied, could not be realised. To say that there wore COO,OOO acres of land to bo available was misleading the Council. If any ono had sullercd through him ho was prepared to make restitution. Mr. Rowe : I a;suro tho hon gentleman that all doubtful lands have been excluded, and that we havo mado a calculation lov which it U shown that wo havo understated tho quantity, vi-c., GOO,OOO acrcs, Tho hon. genthmm may rely on my word. Mr. Newman- : Then I invite tho Government to pause, to lay the evidence before tho Council, and if lie proves what he says, then I will go heart in hand with him. (tlenr, hear.) But lie shrink from the p:iin of bringing peoolc hove, who might not havo tho hopes which the inducements held out encourage.], realised. It was a most painful thing to seo tho struggle which such persens would have to make, 'after having been separated from all social ties. 'Mr. CeeichitoN contended that the only land remaining was the refuse of what had been picked by the officials of the Government, who had takon the eyes out of tbo country. Such a stato of things indicated a policy of falso pretences and nothing else. He detied the Exccutiro to produce a return from tho Land Oflice which did not fully boar out ■what he had etat d. But it was tho simplo truth that theproceeding was only in consonance with the exploded principle of diverting capital from its ordinary channel. Ttat could nevei be done. Capital was ■. Jib# water and would find its level, flowing through every outlet with greater or Jess force, and would do BO in e~ery case. He (Mr. Creighton) knew a gentleman who wanted to settle in the Province of Auckland, and could not get land sufficiently good for his money. Knew another gentleman who had invested £1,300 for eight per cent. —a small return. If there was capital in tho province and population, thero was no need to go outside of itr. There was only 618,818 acres in possession of the Government in October last. Arrangements might havo been mado with natives to got land. Thero had be»n a return of land, of which tho purchase had been initiated, and | it was 175,611, making a total, assuming the purchases to havo boen made, of 694,459 acres. There might havo been 20,000 or 30,000 acres good land in the first lot, and any additional good or middling land must bo in that of which the purchase had been initiated. Those were facta. Mr. Kowe : Not a bit of it. Mr. CeejGhton- : It is a fact that the land orders are sel'.iug at 40s, because the holders cannot get to their land. He know a man who had gono up into the bush, one who was a hard-working man, and a gocd settler ; ho had tolerably good land, heavy bush land; what could he do ? £100 nor £500 would not be sufficient for him to import his food and clear his land. As to tho fourth resolution that was tho taking one, but it cut the throat of the whole matter. If the object were to increase the value of town property he could understand. Tho i;on. gentleman (Mr. Kowe) had stated the curse to the country was that which arrested the forty-acre system, but he left it to be implied that it was tho war which stopped the ystem. That was not correct. It was what produced tho war that stopped the forty-acre systom. The natives had become dissatisfied with the sums offered for their land, and thi,r formed a land league. They had a perfect right to a"k the best price for their land but not to form a league. Tliat'was the curse of the couutry. He (Mr. C.) thought it best to let well alone; to endeavour to keep tho population that was in the province, who would surely go away with an outcry against it to, endeavour to find employment, and if things were bad, prevent them becoming worse. He would support the amendment. The Council adjourned for an hour, on the motion of Mr. Coolahan. ADJOURNED DEBATE. Mr. Coolahak resumed the debate. He said that he weald support the resolutions, as ho believed the Government was acting in the interest of the great body of the public. It was possible that unless some security were offered to the small capitalist, the land might eventually be bought up in great blocks, and the small capitalist would be shut out from participation in the proprietorship of the land of the province. In his opinion the hon. member for Newton (Mr. Creighton) did not represent tho opinions of his constituents, the inhabitants of Newton, but rather an absentee firm of monopolist proprietors whose acts had done more injury to the province of Auckland than any policy that had ever been a'ie:n[ tjd (hear). Mr. Gkeigiiton rose to order. Mr. SwaNjOX said that he had made up his mind not to speak on the subject, but the hon. gentleman had truly described one of the effects of Government land buying. What .was the consequence ? Torrents of blood, treasures of wealth ; and he hoped tho Government would endeavour to dispose of the land they had, and then wash their hands of land purchasing for ever. Every war thut had been commenced, every war that had been carried out, v,-as begotten of Government land buying, from T-leke's war downwards. In the case of William King thero had been falsified interpretations in the Gaztt te fceeauso there was.'a Governor who was the tool of certain persons and knew nothing of the native language. '! he «nmo could not have been done with Governor Grey, who was maste-- of the language. He thouuht that buying land should be left to private purchase. What was the story of the Government land purchasing ; persons went here and there, gave information to Government, then went to survey it, and then took the best bits for themselves. True, that was wrong; but as long as men were men they would do those things, but it was little of it went to the stranger who might come in with a little money. When tho Government once did away with land regulations, at a time When there was nothing but " shin planters " in tho country, money camo down and wa3 plentiful. If men would go amongst the natives to buy land in large quantities, let him understand that he did so at his o .vn risk. Was not the prohibitions put upon the natives the desire to prevent the natives parting with their laud. Was not tho state of the natipe marriage law a disgrace. Ho could produce a letter which was written to a Kuropoan, who asked if lie would have tho same control over a native wife as he would have over a European wife. Tho answer wa3 no. What was it all come of but that Government land buying. Would it not he as well if the Maori proprietor drew a rent from that mill or that land. Let the Government stop dabbling in land. Let them get rid of this unclean thing for so long as it lasts there will be tip. (Oh.) Yes,it was well-known. The men who were employed to go to thoso placet; to get this information wer-j not independent men, and their interest was to do as much as they could for their employers, and not to forget themselves. As to tho " land league," he cotiid not seo why they had not a right to do s '. Well, thero wore plentv of other combinations. But the league did not aim at preventing the tale of land to the individual with a small capital—it was designed against the Government, who was considered the great pakeha. It might be well if a great proportion of the working populations of Europeans wore as well off aa the Maoris, who liau their land to IVII back •upon. But what wis the on.sequeneo buying up largo blocks of land by tile Government, its consequeneo was driving the Maoris back up.jn their barbarism. What was done to promnto fair dealin" between European and Maori. There wej-e several of tho Maori chiefs who weic quite competent and fit to mix with i'uropeans. What was done to mix with them, to bring them within tho influence of society, to facilitate by this means tho cireuJation of trado between the race? ? Thero was nothing. To trade with the Maori properly and fairly was us easy as to trade with Europeans, and the .Europeans were more likely to create difficulty. 'They wore quite competent to take care of themseivo.-i. His objection to the Government land buying was that it was a process in which those who belonged to it must have dirty fingers, But why should not the young men born in New Zealand havo tho same chance as those who perhaps never saw it. They had plenty of "go in them. _ Mr. Dignav said he would reply to the observations which Had been mado by the hon. member Mr. Buckland, and ho trusted that no expression which should fall from him would beconstrued as applied disrepectfully to him or any one else. He would ask the hon. member for Newton (Mr. Creighton) to give the iixecutive credit for better intentions than being the initiators of a policy of false pretences. He could assure that hon. member and tho Cc ancil "hat it was the sole wish of the Executive to do tho very best' they could for the benefit and developemont of the country, and one desire was to establish upon the land of the province, a strong, a h. Ithy, and effective yeomanry (hear). Now, with aspect to future: purchases of land, it must be made with tho sanction ■ ■Of the Oounoil, for they would have to find the means,

They ought not to prevent thoso who wished to come and settle in the province by retaining unfavourable regulations. Had always been the advocato of allowing men to expend tlioir capital in land as they pleased. But thoro was nothing in the present resolutions that curtailed that right. As ho stated before, the object was to sottle upon tho land men with snflieient moans to cultivate it, and to facilitito their coming hero if they thought propor. .

Mr. iluvx Martyw said that something had been said about his conduct in roforonce to Col. Haultain. What that had to do with the subject under discussion ho could not seo, but he (Mr. ilartyn) was perfectly satisfied with his conduct on that point, i Bo would any at the commoncemont that on tli's \ matter lie hml mado up his mind to vote for tho I resolutions, Mid for tho reason that he gave Government credit for knowing inoro on tho subjoet than those "with less information of *ho real bearing of the question. Mr. Every Maclean said that ho could not holp thinking that tliero would bo a difficulty in providing sufficient land. He could havo wished that some wellconsidered plan had bean devised for facilitating the | transfer of land from t.lio native to Eurepean, and the law simplified iu respect to this. Some of the causes or tho depression was, tho exhaustion that had been caused by largo import and tho want of an export. It was said that sheep should bo excluded, and human beings let in. But it should bo remombored that wool was a most valuable oxpoit, it represen ed the most important manufactures, and she6p could not bo grown without a largo amount of labour; tho land would havo to ploughed and laid down. He (Mr. Maclcan) could not say on what side he would vote. Thero was no doubt that parts of tho country were peculiarlv suited to the settlement of small holders, but there were many large blocks which he (Mr. Maclean) would not accept at a gift. (Hear.) Mr. Wvsn wished to be informed of the effect of certain of tho resolutions. Mr. Rowe oxplnined to tho Council that the Government was Quito ready to put persons within tho province on precisely the same footing as thoso who were invited, upon tho samo conditions, namely, tho i occupation of tho land. The Government would bo prepared to introduce a resolution to that effect. The SreAKEK in reply to a question from Mr. Wynn, that if the amendment were lost, the resolutions would be aflirmod, and no amendment could be made to them except by words as an addition. Mr. Wynx said that ho had not made up h'S mind how he should vote. But it wa3 evident that there could bo no amendment to thoso resolutions. "Why was it proposed to give land to persons coming from another place, and denying it those who lived and had .been born as well as lived in the Province of Anckland itself, unless perhaps it was meant to say, c: we havo got you horo safe enough, 1 and we want more population. He (Mr. Wynn) had heard bis Honor say that ho would in tho Assembly do everything he could to remove all restrictions on tho purchase of land from natives by Europeans. His Honor said he would do so, "Whatever his previous opinions on tho subject might have been. Could it be said that his Honor had dono so, when it was remembered that his opinion's had been against free trado in land; it was to be hoped that the Superintendent had only forgotten what he had stated upon tho occasion referred to. It was said that a man with £10,000 could not buy land to that oxtant but he might buy kumeraa. Mr. Rowe : Who said so ? Mr. Wvsx : That was considered tho prerogative of Mr. Williamson. The Provincial Secretary—he (Mr. Wynn) hardly knew what to call him—exhibited a letter, in which it appeared that somebody was going home, and somebody knew somebody else who had £1500 and nine sons, and that was tbo groundwork of a'l those resolutions. (Laughter.) Supposing a man htd a hundred pounds, would it bo worth his while to go up with it to Rangiawahia— the wilderness, as it had been described—and settle on tea acres. Mr. Kowe : In addition to what ho would be entitled to for passage money. Mr. Wynn- : That was the first that was known of that (no, 110), and he was glad of tho explanation. He would vote for tho amendment. Mr. Kerb said he would vote for tho amendment and against tho resolutions. Ho was for free trade in land as well as free trade in everything else. If land was worth anything, it was worth paying for. If land Was to bo put into the market, and a preference were to be givon at all, that preference should bo given to the inhabitants of the province ; to the young men, tho sons of settlors who had contributed by their labour and capital to cultivate and advance the province to its present point. The Government ought not to purchase land. Mr. Rowe : That would not free trade in land. Mr. Ivere : But the Govotnment held an exceptional position, and consequently ought not to dabble in land buyiug at all. If land was to bo sold let it ba sold and paid for. The presont timo was a timo when it could be bought cheaply as compared with tho price paid by the early settlers,who paid £1 an aero, and sometimes £3, owing to competition. Boside3 an injustice was dono by offering land in this way when the old hands paid so dearly for it. It appeared to him that the holder of the forty acre land order came here and was put in competition with others by which good land went up to £3 an acre. Approved of the idea that the lands already in possession of tho Government should bo disposed of for educational, religious, or some useful public purpose. Ho could not believe that the Government were .favourers of policy of fill jo pretence. Ho (Mr. Kerr) believed they felt they were doing what was right and just. (Hepr, hear.) Mr. Ball said he was placed in soma difficulty as to tho way which he would give his vote, for if ho voted for tho resolutions he would support one of them which contained principles that he could not accede to, and to vote for tho amendment would be to excludo all tho resolutions. Ho was pierced to observe tho manner in which tho debate had been conducted, and ho wa3 also glad to porceivo tho way in which the Maori aspect of the question had been developed. He thought tho questions at issue woro to be resolved by statistics showing to what extent the forty-acre system had contributed to settlement, the claims upon it remaining as yot unsatisfied, and other information cf a detailed kind, which would givo something like an accurate idea, not only of the extent to which the system operated, but also the way in which it operated, und tho nature of the results. Ho (Mr. Ball);did not thinkjthat it had been either a great blessing or a great curss. But while he would givo his voto with the Government he would wish it to be understood that ho did bo in tho qualified sense that by voting for the amendment he would havo to exclude the resolutions altogether. Colonel Peacock thought that one of the objects j of the resolutions was to supply those gradations of capital, which woro considered by tho best I authorities upon political and social economy to bo very desirable, if not necessary to the symmetry and solidity of tho social and political structure. A great deal of Mume hud been hrown upon tho forty-acre sj stem. It was said it was the cause of the war. He (Colonel Peacock) believed that it was co-oxistent with the outbreak of the war, and other speakers had attributed tho war to other ciuses. The truth appeared to him to bo that the Government was the agent, and necessarily so, of all thoso who woro not posso:scd ot groat wealth, and came as strangers into the province. Tho very old settlers who bad grown rich knew the road, and how to purchase from tho natives, a"d very probably could take care of themselves. That was not the case with the possessor, of erntdl capital. Believing that the protection of Government was necessary to such persons by aiding them in the acquisition of land, ho would support tho resolutions. (Hear.) Mr. McLeod said that the forty acre Bystem had done a great deal of good. Ho belioved that it had given to the province a number of thriving communities in the Koipura, Kaukapakapa, Oruawharo, Yvangarci, Waitakerei, and other places. It was desirable for the purpose of opening the country that it should be supplemented by such system as was contained in the resolutions. As to land purchasing by tho Government he did not seo anything to pre" vent the Government and the men of capital.purcasing side by side if so disposed. To say that the Government should not purchase land at all was quite .out of the question. He would therefore support the resolutions. Mr. SiiEEHiV said: it appeared to him that if tho restrictions imposed by the .Native Lands Act were repealed thore would be some likelihood of obtaining an easy transfer of land by purchase from natives. But there could not bo free trade in land while thg General Government wore constantly adding restrictions. Europeans: were deterred from, buying land by the royalty extracted from them. •Ho knew-that the natives of Waitakorei and .Kaipara refused to sell their land to Government. ; Formerly only .12J per cent., or half-a-crown in the pound, was extracted, but..it sometimes now amounted to 25 .or' 80 per cent. He was for £tee trade ia land also, ir. ;'.'

Mr. Cxibesemah- referred to the speech of Mr. Wynn at cohsiborablo. length, describing it as one of the worst speeches he had ever heard, from the samo quarter. He'described a pattern settlor'under tho forty-acre systom, with a particularly which convulsed tho Council with laughter,—for this porsevering immigrant had burnt his own scrub, eighty acres: built his own house, mado his own furniture, his clothes, his children's shoes; ard, as the crowning proof his skill, had added to his stock 15 head of cattle and sevoral horses, and to tho richos of his housohold "four children in three years."' Tho systom which had dovelopcd such a colonist was worthy of support. Ho would voto for ! tho resolution.

Mr. Ta'slor said lie would vote for tho amendment notwithstanding the flattering picturo just drawn of the forty-acro settlor. It was as a wholo true, but though tho person referred to had got on very wo!', yet many others had got on very badly. Somo wero fortunate in their selection, or being near to places wliero Jiuy ouldget work, which aided them groatly. He hardly thought thero was land enough for the purposo. Thero wore many at presont waiting to get their lund and could not get it. Tho PItOviNCIAL SeckEtAHY, in speaking to tho amendment, said that ho was desirous of oxplain ; ng tho scope and purposejof tho resolutions. He would remind tho hon. member (Mr. Swanson) that if tho Government iu time past had been unjust to tho natives thoy were doing injustico to the European as woll. He agreed with tho hon. member that injustico had been done to tho native. If tho Council would strengthen the hands of the Superintendent to get the obnoxious clauses in the Nativo Lands Act, tho Executive would givo such a motion its co» S dial support. It was not to bo understood that any object could operate with the Executivo but tho dofliro, and the sole desire, to benefit the province. If persons possessed of capital did not como in consaquenco of these resolutions, thore was no harm done. Tho resolutions Bimply furnished facilities and tho permission that if they chose to como to the Province they should meet with every encouragement to enable them to settle. He wished the Oounoil to bolievo that the' Government woro guided by no servile motive, but by the wish to do all they could to advance the interests of the province. Mr. J. O'Neill was afraid that tho province would sustain the misfortune of thoso resolutions passing the Council. He did not believe thero was the land to be obtained that would satisfy what capital required. Thero woro a great number of land orders " hopping" about tho town unsatisfied. He knew a gentleman Who had offerod to purchase 60,000 acres land to put upon it steam ploughs, steam machinery of every kind to dovelopo its resources, but could not got it.' He would have anothor opportunity of speaking upon tho bill.. He thought if the Nativo Lands Bill.could be repealed, and a simple bill, with one or | two clauses, substituted, it would be a good thing, and he looked forward with hope to tho day when the Government would rid tliomselve3 of this landbuying altogether, and allow laud to paßs from ono to anothor in the ordinary and untrammelled way of a purchase between Europeans. Tho.amendment was put, and the House divided, with the following result Noes, 18; Ayos, 9. Ayes, 9.—Messrs. Buckland, Creighton, Kerr, May, Newman, O'Nei'!, Swanson, Taylor, Mr. Wynn (toller). Noes, 18.—Mossrs. Bain, Ball, Oheeseman, Clarke, Coolahan, Cooper, Dignan, Hunter, Maclean, McLeod, Martyn, Morrow, Munro, Peacocko (Col.), Rowo/Sheehan,'Stark ; Mr. Gilfillnn (teller). Tho resolutions wero thereforo affirmed. HOTION JOB ADJOURNMENT. Mr. Hunter moved that the Council do adjourn until Monday. . : Mr. Wtxjt suggested that tho remaining, business on the paper should bo proceeded with. Question put, tho House divided Tho motion, was negatived by 14 to 13. RESPONSIBLE OOYBENITEN'T. Oapti ; r Cooper moved, That this Council is of opinion that in ovont of any member of Council accepting oflice (that may become vacant by. tho death or resignation of any member of tho Executive), ho shall resign his seat in tho Council, and appeal to his constituents for ro-election. Mr. Wxxn suggested certain amendments to make the resolution more intelligible. i Mr. Bucklaitd said that the best authorities woro of opinion that such an alternative wa3 noi necossary, aud that thoro was a bill at present bcT iro Parliament in England to dispense with such a necessity. Mr. Swanson said that it was woll that severe 1 gentlemen wero beginning to discovor that this " Responsible Government" was a humbug. Why, if it were carried out, a man of talent might bo lost to the province; a rainy night might involve tho fato -of a Government. The numbor of tho Council was too few to allow of its practical working. Tho present Government and Executive was as good a Government as could be got from the Council. Mr. Kbbu hoped tho hon. membor would withdraw his motion. Mr. Eowe thought tho consideration of the quostion premature, aa tho question would havo to como up again. Ho hoped the hon. member would withdraw tho motion. Captain Cooi'Eit withdrew his motion. CLAIMS TO LAND, Captain Cooper moved, That an address bo presented to tho Superintendent expressing tho desire of this Council that a bill or bills should bo brought beforo tho General Assembly next session, to authorise his Honor to carry out tho recommendation of a select committee rolativo to granting land to Captain Petley. _Mr. Eowe hoped that tho hon. membor would withdraw tho motion. Thoro wore a great rnauy other cases quite ai equitable. Ho would support a motion to request his Honor to introduce a bill into the Assembly to deal with theso cases. Mr. CEtrGirroN also hopod tho hon. gentleman would withdraw tho motion. After somo discussion tho motion was withdrawn, upon tha understanding that the subject should havo the attention of tho Government. Mr. Ball moved that provision be mado that, under special circumstances, persons desirous of completing their properties may bo allowed to purchase adjoining lands of irregular shape and small extent. Agreed to. PBOVINCIAL BUSIXE3B. It was stated upon a discussion upon tho motion for tho adjournment, that the only remaining Government business was the financial statement, which it was hoped w'uld be ready by Monday next. On the motion of Mr. Wynn, the Council adjourned at half-past 11 o'clock, until 4 o'clock p.m. on Monday next.