HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.
Tuesday, July 24th. The SrEAKEE took the chair at 2 o'clock.
tapers. The following papers were laid on tho toblo by Ministers—Finuucial papers for tho last eleron years j eorrespondenco as to tho r ico-Adiuiraltv Coutts ; report as to tho 11 awkc'3 Bay Petroleum ; correspondence relative to a maco for tho Houso of Kcpresontalives ; papers rolatiro to £3,000,000; loan ; papers relative to claims of the lato Colonel Nixon's sisters ; report of Major Frazor of Turanganui. KKHEXTIJHES. Mr. Stavi'oud took tho opportunity to state that the debentures had beon sold at homo at 92, notwithstanding tho lato panic there, and that tho Chancellor of tho Kxcht quer proposed to the Houso of Commons that the Imperial guarantee should bo given to the lialf-million debentures remitted home last year. OOVEBNMBKT LAND BAIES. Mr. o.\rlbton- asked the Colonial Secretary— " w hetlier it is his intention to bring in a bill to mat? prorision for tho more effectual prevention of
of what is ordinarily termed. ' crossing i.e.y tho buying off of intending bidders at Government .Land r'ales when mnde by way of public auction." Mr. Stafford replied that he doubted whether any Act could bo drafted in such terms that it would not be oraded. Ho would, howovor, give a moro definite anstver in a day or two. ARMS ACT CONTINUANCE HILT,. This bill was reportod, tho amendments agreod to, and the bill read a third iime and passed. PROVINCIAL COMPULSORY LAND TAKING BILL. This bill was also reported, read a third timo, and passod. SErAHATION. ITr. Whitakeb, on rising to move the resolutions standing in his name, was received with loud cheers. It had been his intention to talo a different course from that he was now about to pursue. Instead of bringing forward a series of resolutions on the subject, it was his intention to bring forward a single resolution only. In order to test the opinion of the House, whether any new form of Government was necessary. It apppared to him that this would bd tho most con-a venient course, but when he camo to consult with some gentlemen of tho Houso and to hoar what had been, and was likely to bo said on tho subject, it appeared to him that tho direction in which any alteration was proposed should be stated. When they came to discuss tho question, he had no doubt that tho details involved in it would be found to bo con-si.-teiit with tho general principle; but it would bo his object to confine himself to the broad general principle as to whether «ny cbango in tho Government was neccssarv. The resolution that he originally intended t.i propose was of a general character, but 011 showing it to the hon. member at tho head of tho Government, that gentleman, who wai cor* tai:dy not very complimentary to him, thought that it was cxtrenuly unwoithy of him to .bring forward a resolution in such a shape as the one proposed, which was to tho effect that tho present form of Government in tho colony of New Zealand was unsatisfactory and ought to bo changed. On that resolution ho intended to arguo that tho form of Government pursued in this colony was specially unsatisfactory to tho Provinco of Auck- | land, and perhap3 to tomo other parts of the colony. It would vory much shorten tho discussion to now coufino it to tho principle involved in the question, and then iiis"iis3 the details in Committee; and this was precisely the course he int'.ndod to pursue. Ho iutor.ded in tho resolutions to show that the time liau eome for a change in the constitution and form of government, especially with regard to the Province of Auckland, and lie should also have alluded to the necessity f of a change in the form of government of the whole colony, and hare made some general prop-.s-itions as to the Government of tho »Tth«!rn portion of the colony, but liis hon. friend's (\!r. S taflf'Td's) objections had persuaded him to take a diffeicnt course, in order to meet his views, and thosd of other members. Ho still desired that the question rhould be discussed in a general form, and that tho details should be discussed in committee, as \ra? the case with bills, as it would shorten the discussion fttid facilitate the work of tho House. With that view he should continue as far as he could to show that the colony at the present time, and especially the Northern poition of it—(hia friends had confined liirn to that) —required some alteration in the form of government. He should also express his views on the necessity of a change in the government of tho rest of the colony, and should be glad to give any member assistance in working out a scheme which would suit his part of tho colony. It had b.'en pointed out to him that in making propositions for the rest of the colony, he was unduly interfering in other people's affairs ; therefore, in order to avoid a'l these difficulties, he believed he had taken what would no doubt bo considered by tbe hon. member oppos : t?, who was taking notes, and by otiiers, a veiy judicious course. He did not wish to see the note, but -would much rather hear it commented on hereafter, than take it in the dry bone form in which it now was. Ho was induced also to take this course in consequence of tho liberal view taken tho other day by the hon. member at tho head of tho Government. He (Mr. Whitaker) enquired of him, and he replied that he did not consider that it was his duty, or that of tho Government, to do so, but if the people of Au'.'Hand wanted a change, it was their duty to bring the matter forward. At the samo time the Prerr.u-r made a most liberal promise ; ho was sure tho Houso would agree with him in thinking it eo. He (tho Premier) said that if he (Mr. Whitaker) introduced a mea-ura within the four corners of Mr. Cardwell's despatch, of which the Govornor approved, with which Auckland waß satisfied, and which the House would accept — (a laugh)—it would rcceivo the favorable conMderation of tho Government. (Laughter). So desirous was the Premier to give his assistance, that it would bo very wrong in him (Mr. Whitaker) tc reject his advice. He would say a few words witli reference to the conrEe the Premier took. He did think it was not the course the Government, and not the course which, under the circumstances, the Premier to havo taken. It did appear to him that when discontent and disaffection (he could call it by no other name) raged in a certain portion of the col-mv, it was the duly of tho Government to enquire into t he matter, and make some proposition to remedy it or at once to say boldly that the discontent and disaffection were not well grounded. It did appear to him that it was the duty of the Government tc coma forward with some proposition, or to have said (as ho now repeated) that there was no ground for the discontent. His hon. friend stated (and he had made a note of it at the time) that be did not consider it his duty or that of the Government to bring forward any question subversive of the constitution. That ho (Sir. Whitaker) thought was begging the question. It did not follow that becanje discontent existed there would be any subversion of the constitution ; it would be open to tho Premier to propose some chango or alteration, and he (Mr. Whitakor) submitted that every change would not bo a subversion. Hie other day he had heard this doctrine laid down by a member it was only for him to show a giievancc, and it was then the duty of the GoTernn.i«nt to provide a remedy. However that mioht bo, ho accuptod tho onus thrown on him, and .vas perfectly ready to undertake the task. Ho would endeivour to satisfy the House thai there was in the northern portion of the colony a cortain amount of disaffection and discontent which no Government could properly disregard, for to permit it to continue was dangerous; either it was tho duty of the Govcrnmont to shov. that the discontent was wholly unfounded or to come forward, if they admitted it (and the Promier did adm.t it), with some remedy not subversive of the constitution. Ho was afraid, beforo he had done, that ho should weary the House, but this was ar important quostion, and he promised that ho would n< t '.'<;t iin them any longer than he could help. He wished to call attention to tho exact position of the Northern Island with regard to population and othei thins:", which should ha understood in considering his propositions. If hon. members would look at th< papers ou tho table they would find that on the 31sl December, 1805, tho Northern Island contained 77,60( inhabitants, viz., Auckland, 49,605, including the mili tary; Taranaki 4 000 ; Wellington 19,000; anc Uawke's Day 4,000. The House would see the ob ject with which ho was troubling it with thosi statistics. In 1853 the native population in Aucklanc numbered 30,000, in Taranaki 3,'j00, in Wollingtoi 8,000, and in Hawko'a Bay 3,600. No doubt sinc< 1858 there had been a diminution of the numberperhaps 20 per cent. That would leave in Aucklanc 30,00ii,and in thethreaothorprovinces 12,000, making 43,000. That was the population they had todeal with in Auckland -10,000 European! and 30,000 natives making 80,000 persons j which, after dednoting the tuilJtury, about 6000 parson*/ trottld Uar« »» noo
as possiblo a population o f 75,000. He needed Hot to go into-tho question of Customs Rovenuo and or,her things, for no doubt lion: pterabors understood them. His objoct was to show tlin'f tiio provinco of Auckland, as regarded revenue, population, anu ansa; was not so insignificant that it could be charged with uvroganoo iu asking for somo local form of Government centred in itself, Auckland, as compared with other places which had been made sopnruto colonies, Btood liigh. as appeared from tho report of the Middle Island Association (us he believejl jt was colled), which was formod with a view to obtain Separation. That body collect&d statistics to show that the area of tho Middle Island was quite largo enough for a separate colony, as also its population. (Tho lion, member then read statistics of Trinadad, Jamaica, Yan Dieman's Land, aud other placoa. comparing thorn with thoso of Auckland.) Auckland was larger, with one exception, than any ot the places he had mentioned. 110 wished tho House to understand this, ao that they might see that Auckland was of a sufficient size to be entitled to a separate Government. There wero three pro- [ positions which ho should endeavour to mako out to the satisfaction of the House/ In tho first plaeo he should endeavour to a! 1 o«v that there was a great doal of discontont at present, existing iu Auckland, and that it was troll founded. He should then show that somo remedy was required and should propose one, not in all its details, but generally, such a ono as would answer tho purposo. With regard to tho proof that the provinco of Auckland was discontented at the present time, lie would refer to an Associstion, of which a great deal had been Bttid from timo fo time, viz.—the Northern Association ; it was established for the purpose oi obtaining Separation in some form. Ho was not awaro that they had lixed on
the details of any scheme, but tlioir general ol ject was to have tome local Qovorntuent competont to deal wih the afl'uirs of Auckland without referring to any otlier piirt of the colony. Tho next point to which lie should allude would bo the petition of the inhabitants of Auckland, boing a largo portion of tho mule population, asking for tho same thing. Then there was the last election ; ho had retired from politics in order that ho might attend butter to his own affairs, and it was his intention not to enter political life agaiu, hut he felt that this was an important question, and as tho people wore so united on it, they knowing his views thought (perhaps tlioir view was * mistaken on") that he should be made Superintendent. And he was elected on this undefatandiug, that ho should not he called on to hold any oll'irc- after separation wan obtained. He alluded to this, because ho was ducted
without any opposition ; indcod ho did not think any opposition would have beon successful. Ho did not say this on personal grounds, for ho was not Tain, but ho was returned on account of the advocacy which it was known ho would give to the cause. The election of members for tho Provincial Council took place after that of Superintendent, and ho said that the people ghoul 1 elect none but soparationists. Ho could now stale that there was not, a constituency from tho North Capo to the Taipo in which a man would have stood a shadow of a chanco if he had not said that ho was iu favour of separation. These were important facts; from time to time there had been public meetings in Auckland of a most unanimous description, at whichthe very name of separation had caused much excitement; and thwo was at tho present time in Auckland an amount of discontent and disaffection which ho was sorry to see, and lie would appeal to tho Houso to-day to go into committee on his resolutions because it was a thing which ought not to be ignored or disregarded by tho Government or the Assembly. The next event was the election of members for the Houso of Representatives. He hid told the House a few days after ho came hero that tho bond of union of the Auckland members was separation, that on that they were united—and whethor they had any defaulter, ho was not able to say ; ho did not think th a y would haTe ;at all ovents if any momber in tho Houso now representing an Auckland constituency had said on the hustings that he did rot represent separation, he would not have in the House to-day, and he (Mr 'Whituker) asserted tliatif any such meir ber was not a sepanitioni<t, ho was hero under falso pretences. Ho would only weary the House if lie detailed all tho grounds for tho oxisting discontent, but his honourable friend (Mr. Stafford) did not deny tho existence of it—in point of faot said the other day to a question put to him, that a largo amount of discontent or disaffection (ho forgot which word was used) did exist in Auckland. In arder, however, to satisfy now members, ho would a;o a little moro into detail. Ho would beer of them aot to put tho question aside as a disagrceablo ono, because if this discontent went on, it would lead to jome serious disaster ; ho would therefore appeal to the Houso to fairly consider the question, but ho would not go into the question as to how far other provinces were dissatisfied, though ho did not think ;hat they were altogether satisfied. It was only the Jther day that tho new member for Clutha (Mr. Macandrew) brought forward a proposition with reference to the Gold Fields, which did not show satisfaction. It was to tho effect that tho people there would not have a doublo Government. That was a uost important interest, and what thoy wanted was lomo strong instantly acting government over :hem. If ho understood the matter rightly, they laid, " give us tho whole management, or take it yourselves." That might be practicable with regard to gold fields; becaus& thoro was not so jj nuch risk run in them as in native affairs, j 4. little delay or a want of immediate action j night causo somo inconvenienco on tho gold i lelds, but in native affairs a falso step or a ivant of immediate action might bring about disasirous consequences. In addition to this there was iinong all tho Southern Provinces n certain amount if dissatisfaction with regard to finance, at which ho lid not wonder, for tlicy had a partnership of unlimited liability, and wero paying for things for which, except for oneo a year, thoy had very little control; there was not, therefore, all that peace and iiappiness, the lion and tho lamb lying down togotlier, that au hon. member said there was ; there was a cortaiu amount of dissatisfaction in tho Southern Provinces, and especially in Otago. This was something which called for the interference of tho Government and tho Houso, and it was bocauso tho Govornment throw tho burden on him that he had undertaken the duty thoy should liavo performed. It [thad been said that tho removal of the seat of Government had created much soreness in Auckland no remembered a form.r member of tho House, Mr. Fox, telling him tint that soreness would wear off, and that tho colony would soon be united and content. Ho (Mr. Whitaker) pointed out that the reason why that could not possibly bo; that the fooling for separation was of older date than tho removal of the seat of Govornment, and so far from dying out would increase iu intensity. Ho could appeal to tho House and to his hon. friend (Mr. Stafford), who well knew what was going on in tho province, who knew whether that feeling was dying out, or was likely to die out. It was tho duty of tho Government to take up the question, for it was an old ouc. Before the Constitution Act was passed, even the province of Auckland felt that New Zealand would be hotter governed with two governments than with one. Ho mentioned tliis, for the provinco possessed tho Beat of Government at the time, to show that they were not eelfieh. But after the Constitution Act was passed, on tho sitting of the Provincial Council, in 1853, a resolution was passed unanimously, pointing out the desirability of separation to both North and South, and a petition signed to that effect. In 1855 tho Provincial Council pdoptod the Eamo course, and also in 1858, 1861, and 1860. So it had been going on for the last thirteen years, during which timo the provinco had been bent 011 having a separato form of Government. Ho would remind the House that all these potitions with tho exception of the last wore sent homo at the time Auckland had the seat of Government, so that the feeling had not been caused by the removal of tlio seat of Government. Ho was anxious to impress this on hon. members, or they might fall into the error of Mr. Pox in supposing that the feeling was an ephemeral ono; it was too deeply seated for that. His second proposition was that there were reasonable grounds for this discontent. It was not his intention to cast any imputation on tho past, present, or any member of auy Government, but he would ondeavour, if possible, to satisfy tho Houbo that he had grievances, and he would then appeal to the members as .Englishmen to take some steps to remedy tho grievances by adpoting his proposals, or whatover others they think fit. He deprecated any attack on past Governments, because it would only lead to angry feeling, which would not advance the position of tho Houso, or the interest of any part of the Colony. He thought it wae not desirable on any account that any imputation should be made against past Governments. It would not bo wise, just, or generous, tc rake up the past, nor did ha intend to do so, . but It trouM t>9 livmmy foe hica 19
ou Ins case to notice the aojs of the present Kn former Governments ; not that tho members of lein had wilfully dono tho province any wroA'g,'for 10 attributed, the .ovils to the distance at which the governing body w;ia from the governed, by which liiuny things had, boon done improperly, nnd many lings had boon cione vfhich ought not to havo boon dono. If ho showed that that waa cansed from the seat of Government as compared with Auckland) ho a t,lon mado out his case, that a loc il Government was roquired iu the northern portion of this Island. All he could say at tho present moment was, that regard to native affairs, everything appeared to him for somo ttme past to havo been going exceasnely crooked and wrong. It was only since his election in October, that he had boerl able to see cortainly what was going on, liavins; b on both Superintontont and agent for the General G-overnraent, and many tilings had come nndor his notice which otherwise lie woulj not have seen ; ho was thereforo in a position to point out in what way tlioso things were going wrong, nnd he thought ho could convince tho House that they were going wrong, and that something must be done. There was a very important institution which had been working in tho Northern portion of this island, ho meant tho Native Lands Oourt. This had changed tho whole position of tho native lands. Tho lands of the natives and of tho Government wero intermixed, and many inconveniences had arisen, becauso access was required to documents at Wellington to show that land claimed by the natives belonged to tho Government. On one occasion ho had written to tho Colonial Secretary for Rome documents requirod, and was told in reply that no inconvenienco had been causod in Hawke's Buy or Taranaki in similar circumstances. The hon. Mr. Staffohii here internpted tho hon. meiibcr—Was that the wholo answer. Mr. AVhitakek —Tfo was speaking ontiroly from recollection, but his hon. friend no doubt had tho letter in Ihe other room, at all events his hon. friend would not dispute that the documents did not come. The hon. Mr. StapfOed—l do dispute it; tho documents did go. Mr. W HITAKEK—His memory was a little at fault; if ho would look at tho first letter, he would find that tho documents did not come. Ho (Mr. Whitaker) asked an honorable friend, who held tho office of
Secretary of Grown Lands, why they did not come, and he replied " Look how beautifully they aro all arranged—you wouldn't disturb them." Ho replied, " Yos they look very beautiful here, but what is the good of thom after you lose their lands." With regard to these claims ho wuld go a littlo more into detail, because it was an important subject. lie wished to show that- this was happening from day to day and week to week, and that somo alteration was necessary in tho management of native affairs. Ho was under some apprehension aB to what ho should hear about the claims for land in Ilokianga, for tho natives could put any lands into the Court, and if no 0110 appeared to oppose their claims, the lands would bo given to thom. Thero was 110 kind of reason why ho should not find his houso and garden in town gone when ho returned to Auckland. Natives wore not particular as to boundaries, and wo.ild oucroich in all directions, and as an' instance be might day that tliey lad absolutely claimed Kangitoto, Whangapoa, and tho island on which the lighthouse was placed. It was therefore necessary to keep the evo of an Argus upon them. A short time ago a difficulty arose between tho Arawa tribe and another with respect to their lands, and ho had pointed out to tho Arawas that they wero wrong, but they - s aid that tilers wero papers on tho subject which could not bo found, and tho matter could not bo settled. If tliey had tho native records in Auckland, they could havo referred to them, and settled tho matter at on<*o. In tho North there was a block of land most valuable to the province, but tho natives were claiming bits of it, and a few months ago Mr. White, who was tho only man that could have settled tho matter, had to come down to Wellington for native papers, and from that go back and up tho Waikato, so that the land court at Ilokianga had to bo postponed. All this was bidly managed, which might bo obviated if there was a local Government in Auckland. With regard to tho nativo affairs generally, 110 might say that his hon. friend at tho head of the Government know that their old friends tho Arawas wero very much dissatisfied, and that nothing was being dono to settle tho matter. This would not bo tho case if thero was a local Government which would know what was going on amongst tlicm. There wis one caso of such importance that he must go into it more deoply—he meant that question at Tauranga. [Tho hon. member here referred to a correspondence botweoa himself and tho Goneral Government.] He did not bring these matters forward to show that tho Government was wilfully noilecting Auckland, but that from their position they wero unable to give it that attention which it absolutely required. Thiß was tho point he wished to press upon the Houpo, and he would now refer to that question of tho lands at Tauranga. In 1864 ho accompanied the Governor to Tauranga, to receive tho submission of tlio Ngatirangi tribe. Their lands wore forfeited for rebellion, but inasmuch as thoir system of warfare was more civilized than that of any other tribe, his Excellency promised to give them Mck a large portion of their lands and only keep 50,000 acres. They wore pleased with this, but tliey woro situated in the middle of a number of hostile tribes, and hoped that ROttlers would be placod on their land as soon as possible. It was so promised to thom, and that the land should bo surveyed at onco. This was in August, 1864, and tho matter rested there, notwithstanding frequent complaints and roport from purveyors and others, which on being sent in to tho General Government had nothing but the ominous word " filo" written on them, and thero they woro left. A great deal had boon said about the Church Missionary claims. In August of 18G4, tho trustees said they wee ready to nogotiate, but nothing whatever was done in tho matter. Theso things again Bhowed that unless tho Government was on the spot it could not cipo with tho difficulties, and it proved the necessity for a local Government in Auckland. He would now refer to what was going on at Opotiki. Ho believed that if the matter had been left in his hand?, theso Opotiki claims would havo been long ago settled, but his lion, friend at the head of tho. Government seemed to be frightened of them ; he was alarmed at what had taken place at the Compensation Court at Taranaki. It was a most important th'ng, if possible, to settle such matters out of Oourt, whether they related to Eumpean or nativo afFairs, ar.d mora especially the latter. Tli"so all'airs at Opotiki might easily have been tettlo' 1 , nnd now thoy were to bo thrown into a Court, tho decision of which was not understood by tho natives, and was nover thoroughly acquiesced , in by them. Again, thoro were those unfortunate murdors in tho Bay of Plenty—the Rev. Mr. Volkuer and Mr. Fulloon. There was a caso of all others i when prompt action was neecssary, not perhaps by i war, but by negotiating with tho neighbouring tribes, when Korcopa would by this time havo been tried, hanged, and forgotten; but this could not bo done becauso thero was not a local Government with supremo authority. Theso wero not all tho eases he would bring forward, but ho would now ask whether j such evils should bo allowed to exist, without considering tho question of a separate Government at all. lie hoped that whatever might be the fato of 1 his resolutions, the Government would bring forward some measure to romedy the evils, and that : tho ■' ouso would assist in doing so, tor it was i their duty to do so. (Hear, hear.) Thero was somo I apprehension felt amongst the settlers that no steps wero taken for organising a permanent force for tho dofenco of the North Island. On this he must say that any Militia Act would be ineffective. What was wanted was some force ready at all times. Tlio settlers saw that the troops were being removed and were alarmed ; whereas, if the people of Auckland had their own Government, they could at once take necessary steps for tlieir defence. Whnt the preposition of the Gener.il Government on this subject was 110 did not know. If hon. gentlemen from tho South felt that their outlying districts wore
liable to be attacked at any moment, they would feel uneasv, and this was just the case in Auckland. Now, with "regard to the arguments ns to the seat of Government, ho would merely say that having romoved it for their own convenience they had nevertheless removod it from tho centre oi tlio native population to the end of tlio island. It was not a question of inconvonionce or convenience with them, but absolutely of danger. Thf-y had now removed tho Government of the natives from the midst of thom, and instead of making some better provision for governing them, the Government had absolutely done nothing j and tho seat of Government was removed at a most inconvenient time, when the whole i country was in rebellion. He did not want them to remove it back again, but he would ask theai to make some provision for governing ths n&tivcd in tho I Northi Tiiers the/ trett plassd ifl ft dl
danger and difficulty, which ho thought wholly unnecessary, as ho had considered he had shown. Now • with regard to European affairs, he would merely {oir'eh upon them. He asked them to look around them, and see how European affairs were managed, and consider wheftis- ■ thoy could. or could not be better governed by a change. "Wore the Southern provinces nil content ? No, were not. The only province that was really content was that in which they wero then. Here they had the seat of Govcrfmcnt, the Panama route, the Manawatu block, and they thought they could get the threo : eighths of the Customs. (Laughter,) Under theso circumstances this happy family at Fort Nicholson being so well satisfied, ought to do something for the north and stuth ends Zealand, and he wouldappeal to tliom to do so. At Iho present moment they were devoiing some 7 months of each year to legislation between provincial and general legislature,and ho would ask Whether the Deoplo of New .Zealand wore going to spend half their existenco in legislating ? (Laughter.) Tho proposition he made would remedy this. Then again he folt sura that many of tho Southern members wero disgusted with this constant referenco to native affairs. (Hear, hear.) But if thoy would agree with him in his resolutions they need not havo bo much of them, and could attend to their gold and their sheep. These native affairs were specially interesting to the poople of tho North, and they ought to deal with them ; but a3 long as the South had to pay, so long had they a right to judge in the matter. These matters all resolved themselves into questions of finance, and ho would recommend his friends from tho South to look after their monetary affairs, and if they considered their interests in this respect they would vote for his resolution?. There was a return asked for the other day of tho expense of tho sittings of tho General Assembly, but that return did not show one half the cost, for it did not shew what it cost tho provinces for their oil! cials to come to tho Parliament, so that whether they looked at it as the management of native affairs or of finance, the proposition he put ought to be favorably considered. He did not speak for the South, ho left hig hon. friends from tliero to speak for themselves ; but ho would say that he would support any of them who wanted a local constitution as well as Auckland. It was because he wanted to see prosperity in both e"ds of the island that he put these resolutions on the table. He had already explained why ho had confined them to Auckland alone, and lie hoped tho debate would be confined to that. He would now proceed to consider the remedies for the evils which he Jiad shown to :exist. '• Ono was cntiro separation, with no federal junction, another was a Provincial Government with extended powers, and an other was that which he proposed. They did not want any ultra-provincialism;' and the other might be very well granted to them without cutting them r-il'from the rest of t'io colony. What they wanted was tho management of native affairs, and he for one would he very s«rry to see them thrown into tho hands of a Provincial Council and Superintendent. They waved the conservative principle of havi- g a second chamber and a Governor, and they asked fimply, " Is there nothing you can do for us to give us tho management of our own affairs, and especially native affairs, without cutting us altogether apart from the icst of tho colony ?" Ho did hope that ho hid i-howntliat the people of Auckland had reason to complain ; delay was dangerous, and he would ask them to do something to help them out of that danger. The resolutions us they stood must bo looked at from three points of view, administration, legislation, and finance. "With regard to administration, he had already pointed out the necessity for a change. With regard to tho finance, he might say that they did not want, in taking tho management of nativo affairs, to dip too heavily into the pockets of their friends from tho tiouth, but wero prepared to make a compromise. At present the partnership between the two, whatever might be said, was one of an unlimited liability, and the must pay to the last shilling. Tho people of Auckland would manage their native affuirs much more cheaply, and they would not have to take such unlimited sums from the South. Ho believed that at present it would bo a most dangerous thing for any portion of the colony to enter into any large work 3, not knowing what heavy liabilities they might be let into, and he had shown his own feeling on the subject by his action with regard to the finances of the province of Auckland. When they were about to enter upon any large local works, they must remember th\t the claims of tho General Government must come in before all else, and he felt certain that by the arrangement ho proposed this prior claim could bo dono away with, and both parts of the colony would gain, and lie could not seo what charm there was to hon. members of the South in legislating for tho natives, or why they should object to get rid of the trouble and anxiety of having to do so. The opinions of men at home, who were conversant with colonial matters, wsro worth consideration, and he would now select one or two instances. In 1844 ho found Sir Charles Bullor strongly recommending the division of tho colony into two, and tha appointment of a separate Government for tha northern portion. In 1846 Earl Grey introduced a similar proposition to that which he himself was now advocatiug, but it was not put into force, although thero wore absolutely two Governments at that time, one at Auckland and ono at Wellington, which he gave tho greatest satisfaction to all parties. It had been said that he was introduce ing some new-fangled notions. (No, no.) These eases proved that it was not so j while even under the presont Governor the very change which was now proposed was indicated by his Excellency in that celebrated despatch of his, which was the foundation of the New Zealand Constitution. In 1858 the New Provinces Act was introduaod, to bring down the provinces to their proper limits ns large municipalities, which was their legitimate position ; but during the last three year 3 tho Legislature had acted just in direct opposition to that policy, and it was necessary now to take the matter in hand, and see if thoy could do the reverse of that policy, and raise the provinces to a different standard. Ho thought it objectionable to their having extended powers as provinces, hut he looked upon it as necessary that such a province as that Auckland should be elevated into something higher and more independent. Again, it was most irksome to havo to meet thus, year after year, to legislate, would be obvia'.ed by the course "he proposed. He would not detain the House longer than he could possibly help, but he must refer them to the despatches which had been laid on the table only the other day, when the despatch of Mr. Cardwell strongly advised that some provision should be made, and directed his Excellency to consult on the subject with his responsible advisers, whoso duty it was then to have brought the matter before the Houbc. The question of responsible Government in tho l'rovince of Auckland was one which ought to he decided afterwards by tho Provincial Assembly itself, and need not to bo discussed now. Ho would not woary tho House by reading speeches and despatches which he had in his possession ,but he would refer hon. members to the remarks of Mr. Gladstone, Mr. Card well, and tho Duko of Newcastle, upon this very matter. It was said that the natives were subdued, and native affairs settled, but he could tell them that it was not so. Look at tho position of affairs at Kawhia, which was simply that of a truce, where Europeans were at one side of the line and the natives at another, and if the former crossed the lino they would be shot. Tho visit of his Excellency had done good, but it was only temporary, and he would ask them if they could say that the Uriweras on the East Coastwere subdued ? The Imperial Government had signally failed in attempting to govern the natives, and any Government would do the same from Wellington, even the Government of his hon. friend, whom he trusted more than any other man in New Zealand. He had now shown the difficulties, and he trusted the House
would let him go into committee to point out the remedy, but if they did not, he could only say that it I wa? tlie duty of the hon. gentlemen on tka treasury benches to bring in a measure on tho subject. He thanked the House for the patient hearing they had given him. (The hon. gentleman then sat down amid great applause.) Mr. R. Gba.ham seconded the motion. Jlr. Stafford said th-it the Government would have no objection to go into committee to discuss the question, although they would give it their entire opposition. He had heard it rumoured that there was a division in the Government on thissubjeot, but ho might t'tke this opportunity of saying that he knew of no foundation for the rumour. It had been said that tho Government whs like a ship in n calm, with its sails trimmed to meet any breeze of wind, but he would beg any hon. member holding that opinion to disabuse liis mind of suoh a notion, and to'believe that the Governmont, though entertaining the highest respect for the opinions of the members of tho Legislature, would he guided by no one on the great and importsrt questions that might como boforo them—■ euoli aa thie Tory question that was now uuder disevasion, th»i of tin fttftacs oi th« cowsf; sad His
finances of the country. (Hear, hear ) He wo aid' now move that the House go into CDmmittee upon the resolutions at Baven o'clock. Mr. Mooishodee suggested that it would lie bettor to take the whole question of separation in the House, because if these resolutions were agreed to ther» would bo other hon. members coming forward with, propositions for the separation of the two islands, or separation of some other sort. The House then resolved itself into committee, and almost immediately afterwards adjourned for refresh." rnents. On the resumption cf tha con aiittes at aay an o'clock, Mr. Wiutakeb mored the fir3t resolution, " That, in the opinion of this House, temporary provision should be made for the better government of tho province of Auckland." The hon. Mr. Stafford, on rising to address th* committee, said that he took this opportunity of congratulating the members on the character and tone — (hear, hear) —of the speech which had been delivered by the hon. member for Parnell (Mr. Whitaker). It was one which might have been expected from him; there was throughout tho whole of his speech, while it was distinguished b> that marked earnestness which would be expected on such an important occasion, an entire absence of asperity or personal allusion, which he trusted hon. member* would follow through the very important debate he had introduced to the Legislature ; most certainly if any asperity should arise in the heat of tha debate, it could not be attributed to tho hon. member for Parnell on account of the very courteous and forbearing tone with which he introduced the subject for consideration. At the same time, h a thonght he had a cause of complaint against the hon. member, although ho (Mr. "Whitaker) ghad incurred it unwittingly, for having sought to distinguish him aa an administrator in public affairs, to an extent he could not claim, for ho would venture to speak cf the public [men of New Zealand, with a knowledge equal to tint of the member for Parnell, and he recognisod in this House many gentlemen able to conduct the affairs of Auckland with as great impartiality, assiduity, and success as he could venture to claim for himself. The hon. momber (Mr. Whitiker) stated that he would confine himself to the principle involved in the whole question ; ho should, although it would be impossible in Committee to adhere as closely to that rule as in the full House, also endeavour to treat this question and the resolutions, although they were many in number, as one inseparable whole. He had briefly expressed on the motion for going into Committee, the disappointment with which he had at first perused the resolutions, but it had been in a great measuro removed by the remarks made in the moving of them ; as Mr. Whitak«r had himself hinted at, he had objected out of doors that it. woa not worthy of one holding tho high position that Mr. Whitaker did, and deservedly so ; of one who had been so long before tho public in the highest capacitias, to have come down and submitted such an abstract proposition aa that soma change was wanted; and he was glad that Mr. Whitaker had been induced to say so much. Ho (Mr. Stafford) ns well as others, objected to his coming down with a bald and inconclusive proposition, to say distinctly that a change was required, but to fail to indicate in what direction it should be made, and in what position this Legislature would be if such a proposition was agreed to, was, he fearlessly asserted, not what the House had a right to expect from a gentleman of such high standing; ho himself (Vlr. "Whitaker) felt there woa some foundation for that or he would not have allowed himself, pertinacious as he was, to be turned away from his course as at first proposed. He had followed the honorable member as well as it was possible to follow one so distinguished for the rapidity with which he expressed his thought*; and had taken a few notes and should proceed with the aid of them to reply to his remarks. The lion, gentleman had taken advantage of this being a new Parliament to speak in de'.ail of ccrtain portions of his subject; indeed, if he had not been a new momber himself, he would not have dwelt on them so long as he did, nor used a tone so extremely cautionary as to talk of tho danger and ruin which might result if the change was not carried into effect. Tho hon member in advocating the necessity far a change, abandoned altogether the principle contained in his resolutions, for he more than once repoated that ho was reidy to listen to any proposal for a change ; if only they could agree to something as ho termed it; and the hon. member not only expressed himself as anxious to assist in having that " something" procured for the province whose interests he stated he was peculiarly advocating,—but offered, in the most generous and liboral manner to become constitution-monger to any other portion of the colony. That was not a position which he believed the hon. member would, on reflection, think worthy of him. He (Mr. Stafford) did not reverence any mere paper constitution. He wa3 awaro that there were many forms of Government which would produce discontent, although the form itself might not be bad, and that there were many forms of bad Government, under the administration of which there might be contentment j but lie did think it thould be remembered that whatever might be the defects of the present constitution, to it they owed the liberties this country now enjoyed; that both in the General Assembly and the Provincial Councils, it was the charter and defence of tha country's liberties ; and that without it the Legislatures, both of the colony and tho provinces would have been mere debating societies. Ho did not, therefore, think it right that a gentleman of such high standing as the mover of this resolution, should ask that this Constitution, under which aB large a measure of liberty had been enjoyed as in any colony, should be lightly torn to pieces, until a constitution, giving equal freedom of action and discussion could bo given in its place. What had the hon. member placed before them ? Ho (Mr. Stafford) confined himself to the resolutions and refused to be led into the consideration of those other propositions which the honourable member said he believed would bo made by members living too far South to be contented with the present state of affairs. What did the hon. gentleman propose in those resolutions —and he would confine himself entirely to the resolutions? Ho found that while the people of Auckland wanted the whole authority over their own affairs, they also wanted to come into that House and take part in the legislation of the colony ; he found that while they wanted the whole of the revenue of their own province, they also wanted to obtain a portion of the revenues of the rest of the colony—to dip their hands into the pockets of the South. It was a proposal, one of the most audacious he had ever heard. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member had made much about the absence of document# from Auckland which were required in the Land Court, to which he might eay that had that gentle nan couched his first letter in the same terms that he had done the last, those documents would have been sent up at once, though he had failed entirely even now to show that they were required. The hon. gentleman's objections to the Lund Court were twofold, first, that due not : ce of its sittings was not given. To this he might reply that the presiding judge of the Courts was written to give duo notice of these sittings, and further, that an Order in Council was passed that such notice should bo given. He would challenge the hon. gentleman to Bay that an adjournment had not been granted whenever it was asked for. The next point that the hon. gentleman sought to make—and he e avo him credit for ingenuity in the attempt, though he was I on tho horns of a dilemma, when he said that tho originals of these documents were required in
Court. If tho hon. gentleman would refer to the Statute Book, he would sea that certified copies were admitted in every Court. If this was a defect in the 1 iw, it was remediable by the .Legislature in Wellington, or by one in Auckland even, were it established there; and therefore this point was lost, as it could in no way affect the geographical position of the Province of Auckland. The hon. gen'leman had said that it was the duty of the Government to bring down some such measure as that now before them; but lie might s»y that the Government could not do so, becau-e it could not frame a measure within the four corners of Mr. Cardwell's despatch that would satisfy the people of Auckland and bo just to the rest c f tha Colony. He might go as far as to say that he had. even sat down to attempt to do it, but not. The hon. gentleman proposed a change acceptable 10 the people of Auckland, without any consideration for tho rest of tho colony, and he might say 'hat fteit was a thing which the Government of the oolony could neither do them wires nor nceop tfromanother. (Hear bear.) However much he might recognise the fact that time might necessitate certain changes, ho for one would always bej opposed to T.olect changes, whether he was m or out of office- (Hear, hear.) Than, the hon. gentleman had said thatrt WM ths dut/ 9l tis asrretammt « ttmij §*!«'
ranees. Ho would refer tho House in tho case of [reland, and ask was it likely that the Govornment jf England would bring down a measure to remedy ;he grievances there, by Riving that country a Government of its own, having also a sliaro in the Government of England ? No, the measure they brought down was the suspension of tho Habeas Corpus Act. (Laughter.) Ho could assure the people of Auckland, however, that he was not »oing to bring down such a measure. (Laughter.) The hon. gentleman had compared Auckland with other places under the British Crown, and shown that it was larger than some of those which were distinct colonics ; hut they were islands or countries by their geographical position, totally distinct to themselves, and Auckland was not this. It was a portion of an empire—that was what it was—and what they had to do, if any chaigo was necessary, which might bo the case, was to bring things back to their normal condition, not to separate the province from the rest of the colony. Notwithstanding what the hon. gentleman had said to frighten young members about the state of the natives, he might say that their power to do evil was daily decreasing in the daily decrease of their numbers. (Hoar, hear.) If the hon. gentleman thought that a warning wis necessary to the gentlemen of the Middle Island, why did not he give that warning when he was Prime Minister of tho colony ? (Hear, hear.) Why did he not then say to them, "Go in peace, do not venture your money or endanger your safety, but leave us to take care of ourselves?" Tho hon. gentleman said that ho had always been a separationist, why did ho not at soma time throughout those many years when lie was in office, say to tha Middle Island gontlemen, '* I warn you not to venturo." (Hoar, he;ir.) No, ho waited and ho came down now that ho had got thoir money and said, " I warn you. of tho and especially ye canny men of Dunodin, not to venture for the North." (Loul ehoe r ing.) Tho hon. gentleman then alluded to the Northern Association, and, in doiag so, said, " Give mo something and I will give any of you gentlemon from other provinces, who are discontent, every assistance to draft a new Constitution." He wanted separation of some sort, and in his desire for it did not ir.ind even if lie could get the power of ruling over three other provinces What did insular separation mean? Simply tho domination of one provim e over three others more distinct in their requirements from that one than they were from the provinces of the South Inland. (Hear, hear.) In fact it was a piece of Parliamentary tactics throughout on tho part of tho h Mi. member to leave this indefinite notion of what eeDeration t he wanted, and he mustjsav that such a course was hardly a worthy one for a gontlemen who stood forward as the champion of the cause. Then ho said, in language not very complimentary, that he would not trust the Provincial Council and Superintendent of Auckland with tho management of nativo affairs, but he (Mr. Stafford) would ask if they had a Provincial Assembly, whero ho would get its members, if not from among the very men who formed that Council, and what right had ho to throw dirt at thoso m«n as Provincial Councillors whom he would tako his hat off to as members of the Provincial Assembly ? (Hear, hear.) Wh/had the hon. gentleman, when himself a Minister of the Crown, not proposed the abolition of elective Superintendents and the substitution of T.jout-Governors? Now, he would say a word upon Lieat.-Governor?. Such an official would have no p iwcr except just what was conferred upon him by Act of Parliament. He was a myth, and unless the hon. gentleman defined the office more exactly, such an official must be looked upon as a useless animal. Did the hon. member wish to be n DeputyGovernor of tho Province of Auckland ? Why, if he had only said so, the Governm?nt would have made him one long ago. (Laughter, and hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman hid always complained afterwards of what had not been dono but never showed what ought to be-done. This was tho case at Opotiki, and thereto might say that through the course taken by the lion, gentleman himself, a great many of the difficulties had been caused Now tho hon. gentleman had complained of the Compensation and Lancia Courts. Theso were mutters which the Executive could take no action in. Tho legislature had deliberately authorised theso Courts, and the representatives of Auckland themselves h id given their consent to the Act under which they were constituted—indeed it was greatly in consequence of their desire that it was passed, bo that it little became the hon. member now to come forward'and complain of it. He would acknowledge that these Courts had perhaps a little outridden the horse, but that was a question of law, and not of geographical position, and he would even say that that hon. g&ntleman himself had been asked to suggest some remedy, but he had not yet dono so, and until ho had proved that the present lawg could not bo judiciously amended he had no right to ask that they should go back to the old system. The hon. member had then alluded to those sad events on the (Cast Coast which would never be forgotten, and said that they were caused through the absence of a Government on th« spot; but he would ask whether when he himself (Mr. Stafford) was in the Government of Auokland, events equally tne'ancholy and embarrassing to the Government had not occurred? Take, forexamplo, Taranaki, which was within eight or ton hours of Auckland, and let him say if proximity to the Govornment had prevented disaster. (Hear, hear.) If there was this necessity for Government on the spot, what would the hon- gentleman say about Poverty Bay ? Would he say that Auckland could administer native affairs better there than at Kawke's Bay ? (Laughter, and hear, hear.) He nailed tho hon. gentleman to that and claimed from him that he should at once sign, that petition which had been presented from the settlers of that district. (Laughter and hear, hear.) The hon. gentlemen had alluded to tbo discontent in the South, and appeared to say that the only dissatisfaction was against the General Government, and not at all against the Provincial Government. (Hear, hear)* He might tell his hon. and learned friend that there was a great deal more discontent against the latter than the former, and that the same was the casein Auckland, where he had lived for many years himself and saw the greatest bitterness existing between, tho different portions of tho Province. There were causes of dissatisfaction against both General and Provincial Governments in all parts of the colony, but that was no reason for separation. Infac*, the hon. gentleman's organ of destructiveness was predominant just no^ ; he wanted duperiutendents destroyed, G-eneral Government destroyed, and Provincial Governments destroyed. He did not think that the hon. gentleman had made much out of his native affairs. It was impossible for Governments in their own provinces to have the solo control over the natives there, as (hey might sea in the late war when natives from all parts engaged. Why the very fact of a defeat of rebels in Auckland would at onco cause them to go into Taranaki or Hawke's Bay and what would the hon. gentleman do then ? His proposal was really summarised thus, that the General Assembly should subsidize Auckland to drive the rebels from there into Taranaki and I Jiawke s Bay—the adjoining provinces. (Hear hear.) The hon. gentleman said that his proposition was just tho same as that of Lord Grey SJ 1 ® cou " eaßl ly "how that it was totally ddTerent (Hear, hear.) By Lord Grey's proposition the Lieutonant-Governor had to wait for l"' J" 1 the Governor with the advice of his Executive, aud he supposed tho hon gentleman did not want that. That Gentleman did not define the powers of tho proposed ProtCol TnS: but 6aid that in c °rtain cases the powers should bo concurrent with those of the General Government; as, for instance, in marriage Jaws, so that a man might be married under the law ot Auckland, and unmarried under tho law of tha rest of the colony,-and in tho currency, so that wWo m Auckland might bo of no use elsewhere (Hear, hear.) Lord Grey's proposi'io was something very different from this, and was int-rdid tor a place made distinct by geographical position. There were the laws of heirship also" wW the boundaries between Auckland and one neighbouring provinces were most undefined, — and where a man might have them runmng right through his b property would h » ve w!ll away one portion under one law and another under another. He would put it to the ion. gentleman as a member of tho legal profession if he seriously meant that that should be, or that the Provincial Government should have concurrent power with the General Government in judicial matters. The hon. member never could have believed that these propositions would find favour with the Legislature, but he was quite right in asking the Legislature to consider any grievances that might be sapposed to exist. The hon. gentleman had alluded to the case of the Arawas, and he (Mr. Stafford) was glad to have an opportunity of making an ; explanation on this subject. The Arawas were never called out by the Government, but turned out voluntarily, through some old tribal disputes, and WaSn they getting beaten they applied to tilQ
Government for assistance, which was given them ] in arms, food, and clothing. In addition to this, they wore offered £3000 to compensate thorn for i the loss of their cultivations, £1500 to bo paid at once, and £1500 when they took Koroopa, and they also got a largo strip of land. If, then, the Arawas complained, they did so without cause, and he | was glad to see that his hon. friend for Newton (Sir. G. Graham) quite agreed with him, and was even ready to pay thorn for their services in quite another way. (Laughtor.) The hon. gentloman said that the Arawas wero constantly in Auckland, and could have had their grievances ro idily redressed if thero was a Government there, but lie could assure them that they could not possibly huvo got more than they had' done now. Tho hon. member for Napier (ilr. Mef-ean) often settlod nativo disputes without referring to 'iho General Government, and he would ask why did not tho hon. member j for Parnell do tho same, and he night bo certain ol being bonie out in his action by the General Government. Then the hon. member had referred to tho proposed defonce force, and vory properly so. Tho Governmont thought that a force was required for some time to come, at all events, and belioved that it would have to be used chiefly between this and Taranuki. When the time came, the exact details would bo laid befor j the House, but he might state that ho believed the proposod force would be found amply sufficient, eren for an outbreak in tho Province of Auckland. lie had not roferrod to all the points of the hon. gentleman's speech, bnt thero would be another opportunity for doing so if necessary, and ho would now content himself with saying that the Legislature of New Zealand could in no way assent to these resolutions, however much it might wish to improve the Government of Auckland, and therefore tho Governmont could ia no way entertain the propositions. (Loud cheering.) Mr. Dick said that he would not have risen so oarly in tho debate, but that it was his intention to move a (-erics of amendments on tho resolutions, making thom apply to tho cjlony generally, instead of to the province of Auckland in particular. It was not necessary for him to say much on the subject, as it was cvidont that every momber had made lip his mind how he would voto. (dear, hear.) What was good for Auckland was good for tho otliT province?, and he thought Auckland would bo justified in asking for this additional power, not for herself alone, but for all the rest of tho colojy. The province of Otago felt keenly the necessity of having extra powen Take, for instance, tho gold-fields, how could they work thom under tho existing regulations ? The wholo airangoment ehow.-d the necessity of giving graiter power to the Province; as another illustration of tha necessity of this, he would refer hon. members to the land regulations which h;id to bo undo or altered by the General Government, insteal of the provinces. He (Mr. Dick) was very much astonished to lmvo heard tho hon. meinbfr for Parnell run down Provincial Councils, as they were well ablo to pass their own laws, and could do full justice to the matters brought beforo them. The Middle Island had been paying heavily for tho native war, and thoy now hopel that it would bo brought to a conclusion, and ho believod that if tho Houth ivcro to close tho purse-string*, tho war would very soon bo put an end to. If tho South —as they had been accusod —had a largo bhara in starting tho war, thoy had a largo share in the expense, and had a right to object to contribute that money longer for tho benefit of tho Northern Island. If ho had his choieo ho would at present go in for separation of tho North and South Island—a complete insular separation, but thn could not now bo done; Ho hoped, however, at a future time to see tho colony a thoroughly united one. Ho would propose, as an amendment to the first resolution, that it read th is, " In tho opiuion of this House temporary provision should bo mado for tho better Government of the colony of New Zealand." The (JnAinsiAN then road Mr. Dick's amendment. On the quo-tion that " tho words propo9cd to bo loft out stand part of tho question,tho Housedivided as follows: — Aye-i, 42—Stafford (toller), Fitzgerald (toller) : Armstrong, Atkinson, lialdwm, Ueiuehamp, Bell, Boswick, Borlas, Brandon, Bryec, Bunny, Campbell, Cox, Curtis, £3*03, Featlierdtono, Fitzherbert, '"fall, Hankinson, Houghton, Haultaiu, Jollie, Ludlam, McLean, McNeil, Morrison, Oliver, C. O'Nell, Ormond, Parker, Paterson, Richardson-, A. J. Richmond, J. O. Richmond, titdveas, Taylor, Walker, Watt, Wells, Wilson. Noes 24—Dick (teller), John Williamson (teller): Ball, Burns, Cargill, Clark, Da Quineev, G. Graham, R. Graham, Hargreaves, Hull, Hepburn, Macandiow, Moorhouse, Newmm, J. O'Neill, O'Korke. Hoid, Reynolds, Vogel, Ward, Whitaker, James Williamson, Wood. ■I he announcement of the division was received with cheers. Mr. Jas. O said that after such a voto it was hardly any use for Auckland to proceed. This was evidently a foregone conclusion, and it was usolcss for Auckland to seek for her interests in that House, or from a Government which had so cvidont a majority in the House. There wero few but were persuaded that Auckland muss have a botter Government than they now had, if they wero to live at peace with their neighbours. It was well for tho South to go to their peaceful homes and recommend thoso of tho North to go and fight, but tho men of the South had never sent their well drilled volunteers to sive the youths and eve a the children being sent to fi.'ht for their home?. The Assembly had been called "together to do justice to tho provinces, and to redroas the wrongs of the country, and yet tho representatives refused to listen to this crying necessity and trouble of Auckland. It was useless to address tho "°u <o ; 'he hon. member at tho head of the Government had said that they would not have that justice done them which thoy asked. This was a nnw Parliament, but probably members no w voted differently than they would do if it was tho last session _ Mr. Tooki, thought that the Jlouso had acted precipitately in committing the question to a voto at so early a date. He did not think hon. members nnderstood precisely tho condition in which it stood. He would oonfino himself to speaking upon hat point, as ho intended to spealc upon tlia subject of tho resolutions at a later date. The hon. member at the head of, the Government had mado a very clever speech, but ho had thrown tho Homo off the scent. It was a poor return to m..lre to the mover of tho resolutions for the mnsterlj speech lie had dehverod Mr. j-tafford had, with gre it cleverness, set himself to a hostile criticism of tho letter, not the spirit, of Mr. Whitaker's address. Ho would at onco take tho opportunity of admitting, that in opposing separation, Mr. Stafford was not false to tho friends who helped to placo him in office. Favorable as they wore to it, they knew he was not, but thev
hulled bis assuming tho reins of Government lon other grounds. He would also say that tho accession of Mr. Stafford to ofliro was ono of the greatest blessings that could have happened to tho country. Tho greater part of tho objections tnkon to these resolutions by the member at fio head of the Governmont was that tho requirements applied only to Auckland. If ho (Mr V gel) wero asked to voto for these resolutions as thoy stood he would object to them, f>r ho would bo an opponent to de iling with Auckiund singly. b ut it appeared to him that the hon. member for Parnell had brought them beforo them to show tho necessities of Auckland, and to endeavour to e«t a proposal which would bo applicable to the whole of ho colony. Mr. Stafford himself had forced upon ho hon. member this posmm, and now took advantage of it to attack him. This separation move ment was not a mere frivolous matter, but.ino which was assuming a most important position, and which having its base in the hearts of the great mass of tho peoplo, must eventually terminate moro or less
successfully. (Cries of hear, hear, and no, no.) luoro was not a single member returned for Auckland who was not professedly a separationist, nor were there a new election, would there be above three members returned for Otago who did not profess the samo creed. Lie hopod that the hon. the 1 ostmaster-G-eneral would explain to the Houso how it was that his opinions on the question of separation had been so changed since ho hud begn gazetted to °,, e - A great many people delayed giving a vote, as they could not see how they were to be guaranteed against giving future aid, supposing Auckland wero granted separation. But as he understood Mr. vtntalier, if an arrangement wero come to, its fulfilment would bo guaranteed by the whole taxing power of its inhabitants (hear, from Mr. Whitaker} and that meant by tho wholo of their individual resources, fcuroly tho taring capabilities of tho provinces wero a sufficient guarantee. Mr. .T. C. Kichmond movod the adjournment of the debate.
The debate was accordingly adjoiune-J, and the adjourned debate made the firdt oidjr of the day for Wednesday. J The House adjourn : ,1 at 10 p.m. [To b§ continued,]
POLICEI COUllT.—Feiday. (Before Thomas Beckham, Esq., R.M.) STEALING smi''S CABGO. Augustus Clarke, Edward Clarke, and B. Makeham were placed in the dock, charged by Captain Maccy with having, on board the ship Monarch, on or about the 18th June, while on tho high seas, stolen certain goods, value £20, consisting of boots, wearing apparel, gin, champagne, brandy, &c. Sir. Gillies appeared on behalf of the prosecution, and briefly stated the facts of the case. Captain Macey, being sworn, deposed: lam master of the ship Monarch, now lying in Auckland harbour. Prior to the ISth June my suspicious were aroused about the safety of the cargo. On the 18th June I went down into the hold. I saw a place close under the deck where a groat deal of the cargo had been removed, and just over the place I noticed two 9-inch planks "had been cut through. The. planks were 3y inches thick. The hole Vras about 2 feet long by 18 inches broad—large enough to admit a man. The hole led into the cabin of the prisoner. Augustus Clarke. I proceeded to his cabin, accompanied by the chief officer, second officer, aud the surgeon. On asking Clarke to examine his cabin, ho said we made the hole, and took out brandy, champagne, pickles, and other articles. Tho younger Clarke lived in the next cabin. I searched both cabins. I found a quantity of articles, part of my cargo, in both cabins. There wero shoes, wearing apparel, sardines, olive oil, jams, codlivcr oil, bitters, brandy, gin. I identify these cases as containing the articles I found in tho cabin. I packed them in these cases myself. On examining tho cabin of the prisoner jfakehani, I foundat-ray full of composite candles —part of the cargo. Some were whole, and some cut up to suit their lamps. Thero would bo about six or seven pounds. Some of the boots in Clarke's cabin were marked with Makeliam's name, and some were marked with the names of the other two prisoners. Edwin Clarke, in tho presence of Makeham, said that Makeham had assisted in making the hole. Makeham at first denied it; but subsequently commenced to Cry, said he was very sorry, and offered to pay for tho goods. Clarke also offered to pay for tliem. The articles aro worth at least £30. I gave the cases in charge of constable George Bradburn. On the ISth June my ship was on the high seas, on the voyage from liio de Janeiro to Auckland. On the prisoners being asked if they wished to ask any questions, A. Clarke and E. Clark said they admitted the "charge. Makeham said ho did not know how the candles came into his cabin. Constable Bradburn deposed : I am ono of the water police. I brought the three prisoners ashore yesterday from the Monarch. They were 'given into my custody on a charge of stealing ship's cargo. I told them beforo I brought thom out of the ship what they were charged with. In comiu? ashore Augustus Clarice said he cut the hole through tho ship's deck to get at the grog. After he had cut tho deck through he came across two large cases. Ho was forced to break them up and pass them on deck. iJ o then came across a lot of candles before tlicy could come to tho grog. Makeham said they would not have clone that but for the ca.ptri.in starving them. Tlicy said they did not citre if they got no more ihiiu six months. They did not require any more. The evidence was read over to the prisoners. They were then duly cautioned, when Augustus Clarke said tho greater part of it was true, and Makeham said ail he had was something to eat and drink. They wero then fully committed to take their trial at tho ensuing session of tho Supreme Court, on a charge of robbery on tho high seas. USING OIJSCENE LANGUAGE. Robert Stephenson was charged with a breach of the 48th sub-section of the oth section of the Municipal Police Act,;by using obscene lailgUago towards Kobert Maine in Mechanics' Bay. Mr. McCormick appeared for.the defendant. Ivobert Mann deposed : The defendant came to me, and presented me with a bill, and asked Uie if I could pay it. T said I would the next day. He abused me iu latiguago of tho most obscene description. Cross-examined by Mr. McCormick : William Wilcox, Ebcnezcr Kobinson, and William Lotve were present. Thero are all here io-day. William WilcoJc find William Lowe gave corroborative evidence. His Worship dismissed the case, on the ground that it had not been proved that the offenco had been committed in a public thoroughfare, or within the boundary prescribed bv tho Act. STREET AKABS. Thomas Gilmore, Alfred Gilmore, and Alfred Berry, three little children, were charged by Charles Oakford with assaulting him, by'throwing stones at him, and he further stated that he feared, unless they wero restrained, they would do him sonie grievous bodily harm. The plaintiff stated that'he did not wish to punish the children ; he only wished to have the boys restrained, as they were a source of continual annoyance. The case was withdrawn, on the parents of tho boys undertaking to prevent tho recurrence of the annoyance. cruelty to animals. Jtobert Crane was charged with a breach of the 42nd section of the oth-sub-section of the Municipal Police Act, by wantonly and cruelly
beating two horses while drawing a loaded dray down Upper Queen-street. The case was got up at tlio instance of Mr. Commissioner Naughton. The prisoner pleaded guilty. The Commissioner of Police stated that there were two othet charges arising out of this one one for nn assault upon the gentleman who saw tho cruelty, and tlio other for not having his name and address upon the cart. The defendant was then charged with a broach of the 21th section of the sth sub-section of tho samo Act, by not having his name and address on Ins cart. He also pleaded guilty to this offence. | For ill-treating the horses he was fined 40s and costs.
The other charge was not pressed. ASSAULT. The samo defendant was then charged with assaulting one Joseph If. Flatt, by striking him on the mouth with his clenched fist, and knocking him down. Plaintiff deposed : Last Monda" evening as I was coming down Queen-street, "i saw a cart stuck on the side of the road. While passing I heard the driver striking tho horses very heavily. After passing a few yards I heard him striking the horses again. I then turned round to look and saw defendant striking the horses both of them, with a shovel. I turned back to look for the name of the owner and number of cart. It was not on the cart. I then asked detendent, who was driving, whose cart it was and lie said what business it was of mine. lie then immediately struck me a violent blow on the mouth. II o was not sober. Thomas Prosson gave evidence in support of the charge. Fined 60s. and costs, or in default one months imprisonment.
(Before Dr. Homo, J.P., and Hugh Borrow, Esq. J.P.) USING OBSCENE LANGUAGE. J oil n Mulhalley was charged by F. Gr Clayton with having on Friday, the 20th July, been guilty of a breach of the 48th sub-section of the sth section of tlio Municipal Police Act, bv using obscene and filthy language towards him at tlio slaugliter-liouse, Sfeynnarket. Mr. Bevcridge appeared for tho defendant. Iho plamtifl gavo evidence in proof of the MS wmxM ij -"»<*•
Two witnesses were examined for the defence, who totally denied tlint tlie words complained iff were used. Tho Bench considered tlie.cliarge fully proved,and ordered defendant to pay a fine of 40s and costs. A similar charge was then preferred against Henry McCullogh. He was found guilty, and fined £3 and costs. BEEACITES OF THE POLICE ACT. John O'Connor was fined 20s and costs for riding his horse along the foot-path in Eden Crescent. James Anderson was fined 10s and costs for being at too great a distance from his vehicle to have full control over his horses. ASSAULTS. Henry McCullogh was charged with assaulting Robert Nesbitt. The charge was withdrawn on defendant paying Costs. The 'same defendant was charged with assaulting William Messenger. Tho case was withdrawn. John Connell was charged by James Thompson with assaulting him by pulling him out of bed, pulling his hair, and striking him on various parts of tho body. Plaintiff deposed that on the 23rd July defendant came into the stables late at night with his horses, and after feeding them ho came to plaintiff in bed, pulled him but, dragged him by the hair head, and struck him 'in various parts of the body. This evideuco was supported by that of the foreman of the stables. Tho Bench ordered defendant to pay a fine of diOs aud costs. USING OBSCENE LANGUAGE. George Eaton was charged with using obscene language to Constable Oliver on Sunday, tho 2t)th July, on the wliarf. The constable having proved the charge, the defendant was ordered to pay a fine of 40s and costs, or, iu default, 14 days' imprisonment. Prisoner : Then there's neither law nor jus- | tiee hero. . i The Bench : You'll find thero are botk here. Prisoner: Yes, I know. Here stands Justice George liaton. The prisoner was then removed. LAItCENY. William Knight was charged by W. T. Smith with stealing from his till the sum of 9s. in silver. The prisoner pleaded guilty, aud expressed his sorrow, saying it was done under tho influence of liquor. . • . Ordered to be imprisoned for one month, and kept to hard labour. I STEALING Fitosl AN AUCTION SIAET. J. B. Wisharfc was charged by Wm. Arthur with stealing from the auction room of Messrs. Arthur and Son ono pair of boots. He pleaded guilty, and was sentenced to one month's imprisonment, with hard labour. BOWBKKT FROM TitE THItSON. William Herrendon was charged by John Austin, master of the brig Reliance, with having at Kaipara stolen from the person of the said John Austin ono pocket-book, containing fourteen notes of £'20 each, two bills of lading, and one photograph. The case was remanded till Wednesday. TIG STEALING. Samuel Johnston, Henry Kurston, and Geo. Saunders, were charged by Albert Dornwell with having on the 28th July, stolen from a pen adjacent to the slaughter-house at Paumure, three pigs value ,CM-, his property. Mr. Commissioner jN'aughton conducted the case for the prosecution. Albert Dornwell deposed : I am a butcller, residing in Shortland-street, Oh Friday last I sent a pig to the slaughter-house at Panmurc. I also sent two on Thursday. I went to the slaughter-house on Friday, about 3 o'clock, and left about 4. The pigs were safe iu a pen when I left. In consequence of information I received I made a search, and came to Mr. Messenger's slaughter-house, situated at Epsom; about six miles from the Panmiiro slaugh-ter-house'. Oh going into the slaughterhouse I saw three pigs hung up dressed. The slaughter-house was closed. Thomas E. Thornton was in the slaughter-house. He pointed out the pigs to me. Tlicy were my property, and the same I saw in my pen the previous evening at Paninure. I came to town and gave informal ion to tho police. I then returned to Messenger's slaughter-house, accompauicd by Thornton, Constable O'Jlnra, and my man. When I got there tho pigs were gone. On the way out I saw Johnston and Ktirston coming from the direction of the slaughler-house, and near the Prince Albert llotel. Constable O'Hara arrested them. On the Sunday following I lound the carcases of three pigs in a corner of a paddock not far from the slaughterhouse, cut across the miudlc. I took them into Mr. Messenger's slaughterhouse, and cut them up to save them. I then had them removed to town. It was necessary to salt them down at once to preserve them. Thomas Edward Thornton deposed : On Friday morning last, about five o'clock, the three prisoners came to Mr. Messenger's slaughterhouse and awoke me up. They told me they had brought some pigs to be slaughtered. I told them to make a fire and boil tho water. I afterwards went to the slaughterhouse and saw that they had three large fat pigs. Kurston tried to knock ono of them down with a. billet of wood, but, being tinablo to stun it, I threw it doivn and stuck it. The other two wel'e employed getting the water out of the copper. We I afterwards killed tho other two, all taking part.
I Constable O'iiara gave evidence in support of the charge. Theprisoners were thou committed to take their trial at Uic ensuing session of the Supreme Court. HOUSE STEALING. Joseph Smith was charged with stealing a , horse and cart harness from the premises of Hi chard Carter. Mr. Commissioner Naugliton conductcd the case for the prosecution. llichard Carter deposed : I reside in Xyber Pass Uoad. On Saturday night last about nine 0 clock, my son called out to me that a man was taking away my horse and harness. I went out to the yard and discovered that the man was gone, and the horse in the yard outside tho stable and partly harnessed. I accompanied my son in search of tho man. We overtook him on the road to Newmarket. My son told me that was tho man who was taking away the horse. I asked him what he was doing with my horse. He said that ho had bought six tous I of bone dust, and was about to use my horse to j remove them, and that a man had lent him tho horse. He said he had been deceived by that man,and if I would accompany him to where ho lived, near tho stockade, he would prove him- | self to be honest. I and my son accompanied him. Ho took us to a house by tho pond, near the stockade. "When we knocked at the door, the tenant said the prisoner did not live thero. I told prisoner I must take him to the police. I eauftnt hold of him, and he struck me on the , , v 1 , somo sharp instrument which cau scd the blood to flow. I then let him go and went for the police, who arrested him. Samuel Carter, son of the prosecutor, deposed : 1 hat he had tied up the horse a short time before it was taken away. It had no harness on then. Henry Carter deposed that lie saw the prisoner in his father's yard, on Saturday night, about nine o clock. He had his father's horse in Ins possession then. • He was putting tho harness on. On asking wliat he was doing, tho prisoner said he had borrowed the horse, and Jnul six shillings for liiin. The remainder of this witness s evidence was the same as that of the first witness. Constable Ternahan deposed that he arrested •i py lsoncr near the Stockado on Saturday night last. J--Iho prisoner was then fully committed to take his trial at the ensuing session of tho supremo Court, on n charge of horse stealing.
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New Zealand Herald, Volume III, Issue 846, 31 July 1866, Page 5
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14,151HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. New Zealand Herald, Volume III, Issue 846, 31 July 1866, Page 5
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