NEW ZEALAND CONSTITUTION BILL. House of Lords, Friday, June 25.

New Zealander, Volume 8, Issue 698, 22 December 1852, Page 3

NEW ZEALAND CONSTITUTION BILL. House of Lords, Friday, June 25.

Their lordships then went into committee on the New Zealand Government Bill. The Duke of Newcastle said, he was not going to repeat the opinions he had expressed the other night with reference to this measure, for he had thought it most convenient to express his general views upon the subject on the second reading of the bill. As, however, lie entertained very strong objections to some of the provisions of the measure, he would feel it his duty to move two or three amendments. The clauses from 33 to 30 inclusive related to the constitution of the upper chamber of the Legislature of New Zealand. Having stated fully, on a former occasion, the great objections lie entertained to the "upper chamber being composed of nominees of the Government, he did not think it necessary to repeat what he had then said. He would simply remind the noble earl at the head of the Government that the practical working of the system of a nominee upper chamber had invariably proved its unfitness tor the purpose it was intended to serve. The noble earl, he was sure, could not have forgotten the occurences in Canada and the other North American provinces on this question. (Hear, hear.) There was also this additional reason for not introducing the system into New Zealand,—We were at present establishing a free government at the Cape of Good Hope, where the English settlers were comparatively few, and the natives numerous, and we had actually given Ihe people of the Cape a more liberal constitution than we were giving to the people of New Zealand. (Hear, hear.) He was confident that a better class of men would be obtained by the elective than by the nominee system. Moreover he begged to observe that the nominee system would be certain to place the Governor of New ZcaUmd in the painful position which many other governors had found themselves in —of being obliged either to submit to the difficulties in which they were placed, or of resorting to the expedient of swamping the old members by the addition of new ones. Feeling these objections very strongly he begged to move the omission of the clauses from 33 to 39 inclusive, for the purpose of inserting the clauses which formed part of the plan prepared by the noble earl lately at the head of the Colonial-office (Earl Grey), by which the upper chamber would be constituted an elective body the electors being themembers of the local Legislatures. (Hear, hear.) The Earl of Desart regretted that on the part of the Government he could not accede to the proposition which had been submitted to them by the noble duke. It might be quite true that inconvenience had occasionally arisen from differences of opinion between the upper and lower chambers; but, without seeking to compare a Legislative Council to a House of Lords, he might remark that the same inconvenience had arisen from the House of Lords and House of-Commons being of different opinions, and yet nobody denied that the system worked well in the end, notwith- ' standing the inconvenience which occasionally accrued. (Hear, hear.) He granted that it would be Utopian to attempt to create a legis- J lative body in New Zealand similar to the House of Lords in this country; but it was perfectly ' practicable to create something analogous to it, j from which great benefit might be derived, viz., ' a legislative body which, not being elective, would not be subject to those popular impulses which must always to a certain extent effect every body that was pui^ely elective. (Hear.) The Earl of Harrowby supported the amendment. He contended that a nominative body would have no weight in the colony; it would be looked upon simply as an instrument of the Government. Let there be two chambers —one representing tho property, and the other the population of the colony; but let the members of both be elective. The noble earl referred to the constitution of the United States in support of his views. The Earl of Derby confessed that, however much he admired the great American Republic, he preferred a monarchical to a republican model for the constitution of our colonies, (Hear, hear.) He quite agreed with his noble friend, that property should be represented as well as numbers; and that was precisely what would be done in New Zealand; for the governor of that colony would depart from his duty if, in the nomination of the members of the upper chamber, lie did not select men of large property, of respectability, and standing in the colony, and who had a large stake in its prosperity. (Hear, hear.) He (the Earl of Derby) regarded New Zealand as an important and promising colony; and he had no doubt that in course of time there would rise up in it a body of men of large property, who would fitly represent the aristocratic principle. Looking forward to that period, he thought it very important that the Crown should have the

power, not of establishing a body of mere nominees — a body of mere representatives of tbc Government of the clay ; but a body of men who, being johoscn in tbe first instance, chosen personally, would retain the rights of legislators for life, independent of the Government and would not be capable of being dismissed ; and who consequently would, from the first, exercise a species of influence both over the popular branch of the Legislature one side, and over the governor on the other, although appointed by him, and this class he had no doubt would go on extending and increasing until the aristocratic element had developed itself sufficiently to allow an approximation at least to the principle of the British constitution. Thinking, therefore, that an elective body possessed of property, and holding a stake in the colony, would be a valuable check upon the democratic principle, he was of opinion that that important element should not be lost sight of, and that they should return to the hands of the colony the power of exercising that check. (Hear, hear.) The amendment was then put and nagatived Avithout a division. The Duke of Newcastle then proposed an amendment on clause 58, to the effect, as we understood, that where it was resolyed to disallow a bill, the disallowance should bo declared by the majority immediately, instead of suspending the disallowance for two years. This amendment was also negatived without a division. The noble Duke next moved that the 74th clause (giving the New Zealand Company a right to ss. per acre upon all sales of waste lands till their debt was discharged) should be postponed with a view to legislation on the subject next^ session, after an inquiry had been instituted into the charges which had been brought against the com - pany with reference to that subject. He did not mean id give any opinion as to whether those charges were just or not ; but he maintained that there was at least a primd fade case which required a full and entire investigation ; and that pending this investigation it was not desirable to place the company against whom, these charges were brought in a more advantageous position than they stood in at present, and it would hardly be denied, he thought, that the present bill did place them in a more advantageous position. That was the first ground on which he asked for the postponement of the clause. The second ground was, that in consequence of the representations which were made to the late Government by the New Zealand 'Company, an act was passed in 1847, by one of the clauses of which the Government of this country became responsible for all the liabilities of the company to their Nelson settlers, and it was therefore very important to the interests of this country that an inquiry into the charges against the company should take place before proceeding to grant them further privileges. And his third reason was, that it was not right towards the settlers of New Zealand to impose on their waste lands so heavy a burden as a mortgage for 268,000?. unless some stronger grounds could be given for it than had yet been put forward cither in this or the other house of Parliament. (Hoar, hear.) The Earl of Desart regretted again that he must refuse his assent, on the part of the Government, to the proposition which had been made by his noble friend. He (the Earl of Desart) would not go into the question whether the New Zealand Company were justly liable to the charges which had been brought against them or not ; he did not think that their lordship's house was the proper place to investigate such matters, and he believed, his noble friend was of a similar opinion on that head, his object being, as heunderstood it, merely to prevent the New Zealand Company being placed in a better position {han they now were until an inquiry had taken place. But he (the Earl of Desart) maintained that this clause would not place them in a better position than that in which they formerly stood.''' The" New Zealand Company were willing to accept the certainty of one-fourth of the produce of the waste lands for the uncertainty which they at present possessed, and he believed that, if anything, their position in a pecuniary sense would be less profitable than hitherto. The latest accounts from the colony afforded the pleasing evidence of the speedy settlement of the land claims. The claimants were perfectly satisfied -with the arrangements of the act of 1847, and in 12 months more the Government would have the entire control of those lands. He would not, upon this occasion, allude to the charges of alleged fraud upon the part of the New Zealand Company further than to say that those charges had not been proved, and that he was anxious their lordships should avoid prejudging the case. (Hear, hear.) The amendment was then negatived, and the clause was agreed to. The remaining clauses were also agreed to, and the bill went through committee. The report was brought up, and the bill ordered to be read a third time on Monday next.

Tuesday Juste 2.9, After a few observations, which were inaudable, from Earl Waldegrave and the Earl of De3art, this bill was read a third time and passed.