NEW ZEALAND CONSTITUTION BILL. House of Lords, Tuesday, June 22.

New Zealander, Volume 8, Issue 697, 18 December 1852, Page 3

NEW ZEALAND CONSTITUTION BILL. House of Lords, Tuesday, June 22.

The Earl of Desart rose to move the second reading of one of the important measures which Her Majesty's Government had considered it to be its duty to_ bring forward in this anomalous session of Parliament; and lie could assure their lordships that there were few bills of greater importance than that which he then submitted to their approbation. It concerned not only the destiny of one of our most rising colonies, but also the interests of many individuals, who, though separated from us by long distance, were still anxious for the general prosperity of the great empire of which they formed a component part, lie was sorry that a bill of such vast importance should have been intrusted to a person of such small experience as himself, who was scarcely capable of undertaking a task of such magnitude ; but he had the consolation to support him — that this was no party question, but one in which men of all parties in this country were alike interested. He therefore trusted that the same forbearance which had influenced lion, gentlemen in the other Houso of Parliament would also induce their lordships to consider this measure favourably, and to realize the wishes of their fellow-countrymen for the future good government of this' colony. He did not know whether it was necessary for him, as their lordships were all of them well acquainted with this subject, to enter into a history of the fortunes of this colony ; but still it mij>ht be expected that he should give a slight but free sketch of them. The number of Em-op pan inhabitants in New Zealand amounted to 2(3,000 souls, scattered over nine different settlements. One of these settlements Auckland contained a population of 9,000 persons, while a population was scattered over the other eight not exceeding 17,000 persons, there was no communication between these different settlements except on horseback, and they wore divided from each other by mountains and rivers over which there were no bridges. The constitution which had been given to the colony had been suspended in 1847 for five years, and the approaching expiration of that term rendered it necessary to form an act capable of sur1 nounting the difficulties attendant on all legisation for. this important colony. There was, however, one circumstance which gave the Legislature considerable facilities in this task. The native inhabitants of .New Zealand were far superior to all those with whom our attempts at colonization had hitherto mado \is acquainted. They understood agiiculture, they made good sailors, and they were ambitious to obtain for themselves a higher scale among the nations of the earth than they could ever hope to attain in a state of barbarism. He hoped that avc should be able to incorporate those aborigines into our settlements, and to merge them gradually with our own people into one great, useful, and intelligent community. He proposed to make a beginning of such a good work by establishing six provincial councils, embracing all the nine different settlements of New Zealand. The legislative functions of these councils wore distinctly defined ; and the first change which he had to I mention in the scheme formerly framed for the constitution of the colony was, that the superintendent officer of these councils should bean elective officer, and that he should be elected by the same machinery as that which returned the elective council! At first he had entertained doubts as to the policy of such a regulation ; but on mature deliberation he thought that great advantages might be derived from it. Having said thus much regarding the pi'ovincial councils, he proceeded to observe that there was to be a Central General Assembly within the colony, consisting of the Governor, a Legislative Council, and a Houso of Representatives. The members of the Legislative Council would hold their appointments for life, and would be 10 in number, while the members of the House of Representatives would be elected by the same machinery as that used in the election of the provincial councillors, and would hold their seats for five years, unless the General Assembly was sooner dissolved. He did not think that it was necessary for him to go further into the details of the measure then before their lordships. The waste lands of New Zealand were placed under the control of the General Assembty, but under certain provisions clearly defined. The Crown reserved to itself the power of regulating and controlling all transactions between the aborigines and the colonists relative to the sale of such lands. No one could be more averse than himself to yield at once to the unreasonable claims of the colonists to obtain the entire management of the waste lands, wherever they were settled. The concession would be dangerous to the colonists themselves, when they could neither alienate nor improve them. His objections to such a concession did not apply so strongly to the colony of New Zealand as to our other colonies, for the aborigines of New Zealand, as he had before stated, were anxious to associate themselves with Europeans, and, as many of them had funds under English protection — one of the chiefs to the amount ot 500/., and others to the amount of 390?. and 200^. — we had a right to expect that before long there would be a general fusion between them and

the English colonists; ami, if such should le the c.ise, we should accomplish a greater benefit for the colony than any which could be I derived from any other quarter. Tic had now I sluntly l,ii d before their lorduhips the principal ; features of the bill. At a future stage of it its 1 various provisions could be discussed' separately, and any suggestions which their lordships mi^ht make for their improvement would meet Avith a i favourable reception from Her Majesty's Government. There was a time when it was* for the interest of both pirent and child that restrictions should be withdrawn. The question was whether New Zealand was in such a state that they could bo withdrawn? lie thought it was. It* was an ( experiment which was made by this bill; but an experiment of which he entertained the greatest hopes. Lord Lyttelton expressed his sense of the acknowledgments which were due to the Government for having brought in this bill, which ho rejoiced to think was beyond the reach of present harm. It had defects, however, when put in comparison with the standard of right principles exhibited in the constitution of the early North American colonies. He would take as a specimen of them the constitution of Maryland. The leading' features of such a constitution as that to which he had referred Avere, that the colonists were given complete and uncontrolled freedom of legislutionwith respect to their internal affah's,compiete control over the land in their settlement, an entirely unfettered trade, and the election and payment of every one of the officers of their establishment, from the Governor downwards. They were also intrusted with the unlimited power of self-defence, and had the whole responsibility of self-defence cast upon them. They had the entire and uncontrolled power of taxation ; and, in the last place, the whole expense of their establishment was thrown upon themselves. For the first time in more recent experience complete control over the land of the colony was given in this bill to the colonists. It was to the honour of the Government that it had conceded that point. Complete and unfettered freedom of trade had but recently been yielded, though nothing was more at variance with the early principles of British colonization than what was called the colonial system, which even Burke recognized. The power of self- taxation had been lately conceded : but there still existed a shadow of that great absurdity, the colonial civil list. The freedom of legislation under the old charters was restricted by implication, the colonist being restrained from legislating in derogation of the rights of the Crown of England and of imperial interests and policy ; and they were also restrained expressly from legislating in any manner repugnant to the law of England. The effect of the latter restriction was doubtful ; and an able writer, Mr, Cornewall Lewis, had pointed out that the law of England had been held to have force in the colonies, so far as it was applicable to their circumstances. Whatever question might have arisen in regard to the character of colonial legislation under those charters, that question would have been determined according to the construction of the public legal document in an open court of law. The system wheh had grown up since was, that such matters should be brought, not before an open court of law, but before a secret tribunal, namely, the Colonial-office, a system which was not to be traced in the charters that preceded the second charter to the New England State of Massachusetts. The only answer given by the late Secretary of State for the Colonies to the objections which were taken to the universal power of disallowance was that it was a power which had been exercised by himself and some of his predecessors in the most liberal spirit, and had been applied only in reference to subjects on which it was most reasonable they should apply it — an answer which obviously amounted to no answer at all. With respect to the appointment of officers, the appointment of the Governor by the Crown was as good as his election by the colonists, if not better. The system however, by which a governor held office only foy a fixed time was mischievous. In regard to self-defence, power was ' given h> the charter to which he had referred of levying forces to defend themselves against all eiiemics whatsoever; and with respect to selfsupport, the whole expense was thrown on the early colonies from their very infancy. That sj^stem had been precisely reversed, and this country charged herself with the defence of all its colonies. There had been in former times no such address as that memorial which, to the disgrace of the border colonists at the Cape, had been presented to the Government, expressing their incapacity for self-defence; and that principle of self-dependence coexisted with an ineradicable and uncxtinguishable loyalty in the North American colonies, for example, till the Revolution ; and he referred in prooi to the language of Franklin, after Grenville, the Duke of of Grafton, and their colleagues had carried out their system of folly and oppression, — language used in 1774 and 1775, from which it appeared that that great man could not conceive separation was possible, or could be desired. Having pointed out the principles on which our early colonies were founded, he (Lord Lyttelfon) would add the remark tint there appeared to be a gradual return to tUat early system. There wore two respects in which the present bill demanded consideration. First there were the provisions relating to the general government of Now Zealand, and secondly, the provisions relating to the provincial government. In this bill the well considered intermixture in the same chamber of members elected by the people and of members nominated by the Crown was not to be found. He (Lord Lyttelton) would not go so far as to object wholly to this element, the nominee system. It might be an improvemant that the appointment was for life. There was to be a most important alteration in our modern system in one respect, and, indeed, the Government were proposing a much better bill than they intended. The veto was to be exercised b)'' the Governor of New Zealand, and there would no longer be the lapse of time before effect was given to legislative measures. In reference to the concurrent power given to the General Assembly over the matters legislated upon by the provincial Assemblies, it might be wished that there had bean such a limitation that the local Legislatures might not have the apprehension of the interference of the Central Government. However, considering the period of the session, he should be 'content to see the bill pass without, material alteration. Lord Wodehouse apprehended that in a theoretical point of view many objections might, be made to this bill. It might, be said that there was not to be found in it a perfect model of a constitution ; that there was an absence of any leading principle of government in it; that there wis a most disproportionate amount of government for so small ii community ; that there might arise six conflicting codes of law. But the coloni&ts would look rather to the powers conferred upon the Legislatures than to the particular form in which those governments might be cast, and the bill left them very large powers of adjustment, which might; be readily used. Many persons thought that these colonies must necessarily remain separate, and historical examples were cited ; but there was a m stake in applying these examples, when such great physical changes had occurred in the world since that period. The more discovery and application of steam had completely altered circumstances; and in a country with such a large coast line there would be easy means of communication, without which a central Government would have been impossible. Reference wns made to the Government of the United States, but the example was not strictly analogous, because the territory there was so large that free institutions could not exist unless in a federal form. With regard to the power of managing the waste lands, it had been wisely granted ; but there, might be a contrast drawn between this liberality and the reservation of the waste UvvU from the colonists of New South

Wales, on the ground that they could be better managed at home. The present step might lead to a like concession in that case also. (Hear, hear.) As to elective governors, that might 1 be an unwise departure from the goneral rule, if these were to be considered as separate provincial Legislatures, likely io remain such ; but, if these settlements were rather looked upon as municipalities with extended powers, the arrangement would be regarded as a boon, and was not likely to be productive of any harm. The Government had also made a valuable concession in regaid to the veto. (Hear.) The present was a very critical period in the history of our colonies. The colonies were fast growing up to manhood. If we profited by the lesson of the last century, and treated (hem in a generous and liberal spirit, and avoided vexatious interference with their local affairs, they ■would be content that we should have a general control in matters of general interest in return for the protection we afforded them. (Hear, hear.) The Duke of Newcastle would not now follow the noble lord (Lord Lyttelton) into the wide field of discussion of the'prineiplcs of clonization and colonial government ; for it had become plain that a period was arrived, in a session that was to terminate the Parliament, at which it was vain to expect to fix attention upon these subjects, not only in that house, which had been described as " moribund," but in this, which was of a more perpetual character. (Hear, hear.) He would merely apply himself, therefore, to the details of the bill. Whether the Government had fully appreciated the effect of the measure, or had been (as was alleged) led into gi eater concessions than they anticipated, he «as prepared to express his general approval of the bill. lie considered it to involve a much larger measure of colonial freedom than had been conceded by any bill which had occupied the attention of the Legislature since these discussions had come before it. (Hear, hear.) He believed three plans had been suggested for establishing a constitution for New Zealand. The first was the establishment of a central Government ; the second, a subdivision of the colony into two provinces ; and the third was the proposal now before the House for giving separate local Legislatures to each of the six settlements, to be controlled and overruled by a general Legislature. He thought there were great objections to the establishment of a central Government in a country in which there was in reality no natui'al centre ; and, wherever they placed such a central Government, the greatest jealousy would be excited in the other districts of the colony. He considered also that the proposal for the subdivision of the colony, though preferable to the establishment of a central Government, was open to many of the same objections. ITe thought, on the whole, notwithstanding the objections which might be raised as to the numerous codes of laws that would be enacted, and the conflicting interests which might arise among the separate districts, that the proposal for establishing six local Legislatures with one controlling Central Legislature ■was the best that had been made. He confessed, however, that he had some doubts as to one part of the measure — he alluded to the concurrent power of legislation given to the six local Legislatures and to the Central Legislature. He could not help fearing either that the Central Legislatui c would be swallowed up by the six minor Legislatures, or that the six minor Legislatures would eventually lead to the abolition of the Central Legislatui'e. It seemed to him that this provision would prevent the system from being either central or local, and certainly it prevented it from being either federal or, strictly speaking, municipal. With regard to this and some other portions of the bill, it appeared to him that there was a general want of unity of principle, which would lead to florae difficulty in the working of the measure. He thought, however, that the Government had acted most wisely in excluding the principle of nominees with respect both to the local Legislature and to the Central Legislature, for they ■would thus avoid those collisions which had taken place in other colonies. A noble duke (the Duke of Argyll) had the other night presented a petition from the Legislature of New South Wales, and he ■was informed that that petition, which certainly •was not -very moderate in its language, was opposed by all the nominee members of the Legislature, and was supported by all the elected members. He was glad, therefore, that such an element of discord as was created by the appointment of nominees would not be introduced in the Legislature of New Zealand. He thought the Government had acted most wisely in the concessions they had made with regard to the appointment of superintendents : for he could not think the measure would have worked beneficially for the colony if the appointment of the superintendents of the various provinces had been reserved to the Crown •or the Government. He thought, however (as we understood), thatthe powers of the superintendents ought in some measure to have been diminished and remodelled. lie hoped that, with regard to ithe public expenditure of the colony, the comparatively petty interests of each provincial Legislature would not be allowed to interfere with those great measures of improvement which were essential to the general prosperity of the colony, and one of the most important of those measures was the establishment of regular communication between the different parts of (lie colony. With regard to the power of the veto, the suspension of * measures of the colonial Legislatui es until the - opinion of the home Government could be obtained had always been a grievous cause of complaint in every colony. The time within which the power of the veto might be exercised by the go\ ernor was reduced by this bill from two years to three -months, but he could not sec why — as such a very important limitation had been adopted with regard to the veto of the governor — they should t.till allow two years to the Colonial-office at home for assenting to or disallowing the measures of the colonial Legislature. The result of maintaining such a system was that a measure adopted by the ■colonial Legislature might remain suspended for nearly three years between the time at which it was passed and the confirmation or veto of the . home Government. lie generally approved of the principle of the bill, with regard to those points to which he had alluded, although he had some al- , terations to suggest which he hoped would be taken into consideration when the House went into committee. There was, however, one part of the bill of which he could not approve. lie referred <to the principle which had been adopted with icgard to the constitution of the Upper Chamber of -the Legislature, in which there was a complete departure from the bill upon which this measure was founded. He certainly thought that the Government ought to have abandoned the principle of nominee appointments in the Upper Chamber. The effect of continuing the nominee system would be that the Upper House of Assembly — to use a term which obtained great cui'rency in that house some years ago — would be swamped by the Government ; and the result would be that remonstrances would be made to the Government at home, which would place the Colonial Secretary in a position of considerable difficulty. He believed that they would never get a body of nominees to pay proper attention to the public business. The governor of a colony appointed^ probably as his nominees a body of men from some distant part of the colony, who had business of their own to attend to, and ■who might npt generally come up to the central place of legislation to attend to their legislative duties. The theory of a nominee Upper House of Assembly arose from the old notion of imperial government, and from an idea that it was necessary to bind the colonies and the mother country together by some means other than those of mutual interest ; that, while it might be desirable to give the colonists a representative body to attend to their interests, they must at the same time, appoint a nominative body to attend to the interests of the mother country. Now, it appeared to him that in following this old-fashioned notion, the Government were pursuing the shadow instead of the substance of a conversfttive j^rinciple. They were

pursuing the shadow of a conservative principle in appointing a nominee chamber of nn imperial character, whilethey were dropping i he substance of a really conservative measure in not making the body elective, and thereby introducing into it men who had an interest in the colony and in the preservation of all that concerned its welfare, -which anomince body seldom had, and which he believed they nc\er could possess. (Hear, hear.) To say that there was any similarity between a nominee Upp^r Chamber of the kind proposed and their loid&hips' House was simply ridiculous. lie admitted that in theoiy and at first sight the appointment of an Upper Chamber by the Crown or its representative did look more like a House of Louis than a body elected by the people; but the more they practically examined it the move they would bee how shadowy and non real the whole theory was. Their lordships' House was the growth of ages, not the creation of yesterday. Did any one suppose, if it were at once swept away, and a nominee chamber chosen in its stead, that that nominee chamber would possess the moral influence which their lordships possessed, and which he trusted they would long possess ? (Hear, hear.) Besides, it was superfluous to appoint such a chamber for the purpose of checking the acts of the Legislative Assembly, so long as the governor of the colony had the power of vetoing their acts, lie next came to that which formed an important feature of the bill, and which he felt bound to press upon the Government the necessity of postponing — be meant that portion of the bill by which it was proposed to give one-fourth of the produce of the land sales to the New Zealand Comp.'iny. He begged to say at once that he had no feeling of hostility whatever to the New Zealand Company. He looked at the matter simply as one of serious importance, both as regarded the Legislature of this country as regarded a colony. lie looked at it, in short, as a question involving a great public principle. (Hear, hear.) He was not about to bring any bill of indictment against the New Zealand Company, nor to give any opinion in confirmation of the charges which had been brought against them. All that he wished to do was, to press upon their lordships that while charges of so serious a nature as those to which he had referred were before the country, and were undecided, it was most important that their lordships should not come to any hasty decision on the subject. (Hear, hear.) He begged to say, also, that what he particularly objected to in this matter was, that the bill would improve the condition of the New Zealand Company, — an advantage to which he considered they had no just churn. He had no desire to place them in a worse position than that in which they had been placed by past legislation. However generously the Legislature had acted toAvards them on former occasions, and he thought they had acted very generously towards them, he had no wish to interfere with that ; but he certainly wished that nothing should be added to the generosity of the Legislature. (Hear, heur.) His grace then proceeded briefly to detail the facts of the case as he understood them. By the act of 1847, the Government lent 236,000?. to the New Zealand Company without interest ; and there was a charge of 268,000?. in addition made upon the land for the benefit of the company, making a contribution from the funds of the colony, or of the mother country, as the case might be, of upwards of half a million. And how was the 268,000?. charged ? By the act of 1847 it was provided that the sum of 268,000?. with interest at the rate of 3£ per cent , was "to be charged upon and paid to them out of the proceeds of all sales of land in New Zealand, after deducting the outlay for surveys, and the proportions of such proceeds Avhich is appropriated to the purposes of emigration;" at the same time, in the event of the company breaking up, their lands were to revert to the Crown, " upon condition of the Crown satisfying any liabilities to which the company may then be liable under their existing engagements, with reference to the.settlement at Nelson." After showing that it was extremely doubtful whether the deductions above mentioned would leave the company any surplus, his grace pn coeded to notice the argument, that though the company might not have a legal claim to any portion of the produce of the land sales, they had a moral claim. He maintained that the'r lordships had nothing to do with moral claims there. The only question which they were entitled to ask was this— viz., whether the rights of the New Zealand Company were a marketable commodity, and, if they were not, why should their lordships make them marketable by giving the company a first instead of a third claim ? His grace next proceeded to notice the charge which had been brought against the company, that in«dealing with the late Government in reference to the act of 1847, they concealed the fact that they had obtained an opinion from a counsel who was one of their largest shareholders, to the effect that .they had i broken their contract with the Nelson settlers, and were liable to refund the purchase-money.; and that they sent to the Government and the settlers another opinion, subsequently obtained, to the exactly opposite effect, lie maintained that the Chancellor of the Exchequer must have been in ignorance of the liabilities of the company, else he never would never have consented to the terms of the act of 1847- Now, this charge was of too serious a nature to be allowed to pass without inquiry. The company had themselves demanded an inquiry, and the Legislature, lie thought, wei*e bound to grant it. The papers connected with the case had been promised, but could not be laid on the table of either House for some time. Tending the production of those papers, therefore, he contended that it wo\ild be unwise to proceed with this part of the bill. Earl Grey regretted that a rising colony should be burdened with such a charge as that contemplated by this measure in relation to the New Zealand Company, but at the same time Parliament must not refuse justice to those by whose exertions and whose personal sacrifices the colony had been created. He himself had been by no means one of the fosterers of that company, but he could not help expressing the opinion that a run was now being made against the company not less xinmeritcd than the exaggerated support which had been given to them in the first instance. The directors had given the best proof that they were acting on high grounds, for they had continuously sacrificed large sums of their own money in the development of the colony. Their real fault was that they had shown themselves deficient in worldly wisdom and prudence, in too readily adopting the plausible schemes of a projector, clever indeed, but whose cleverness was not accompanied by other qualifications, equally necessary with cleverness to render him a trustworthy guide. As a general rule, companies or boards of directors, without efficient check or control, were not likely to lead to satisfactory results in these matters. That the New Zealand Company had not succeeded was not much to be wondered at ; the difficulties of founding colonies in distant parts of the world were so great that such experiments scarcely ever answered. The latest scheme of this sort — the Canterbury Association — had just turned out a pecuniary failure, so far as the projectors were concerned. When those projectors came to him with their plan he had distinctly warned them that they might lead, indeed, to a nourishing community, but that as a pecuniary speculation their scheme mu&t inevitably fail, and they themselves be involved in losscss and liabilities and difficulties without number; and so it had turned out. So far then, as the Canterbury Association was concerned, no claim could be made upon Parliament or upon the Government foy any pecuniary compensation, for the relations between the company and the Government had been clearly defined in the first outset, and the failure of the scheme, pecuniarily, could in no degree be attrii butcd to the act of the Government. The case was, however, very diiVerent with the New

Zealand Company, -whose chances of success Avliatevev they might have been, had bean thwarted and impeded by the interference both of the local Government and of the Government at home. This had boon clearly admitted by the committee who had investigated the subject, and the claims of the company on that ground were so distinctly felt by the noble carl opposite when he was Colonial Secretary that he made arrangements for assisting the company with a loan of public money. "When he was appointed to the Colonial-office, he found that the company complained that what had been done for them was very far from making up for the injury they had sustained by previous measures, and by the great delay they experienced in getting possession of the land. He felt that there was force in that complaint ; that they were entitled to some further compensation, and that something more should be done to enr.hle them to try fairly the scheme to carry out which they were originally formed. Accordingly, the Government having settled what was the" largest amount that Parliament should be recommended to advance, the matter was placed in the hands of Mr. C. Buller to consider what was the best arrangement, under exising circumstances, to enable the company, with such assistance, fairly and fully to try whether their scheme was one capable of being successfully worked. A plan was accordingly prepared with great care and rapidity by Mr. Buller, and there were two points on which he (Earl Gx-cy) specially guarded himself, viz., that the pecuniary assistance should not exceed a certain sum, and that the arrangement was to be a conclusive* measure, and a discharge in full of all possible claims on the part of the New Zealand Company whether it should succeed or fail. The bill of 1847 was prepared to carry into effect the arrangement, and ultimately it received the assent of Parliament. It appeared to him that there was one clear rule to be followed in working the arrangement, viz., that the company should receive every possible support from the Government in working out the plan ; and, it being part of the arrangement that a commissioner should be appointed by the Government to watch over the proceedings of the company, his (Earl Grey's) instructions to that commissioner were, not to interfere further than was necessary for the strict protection of the public interests, and for the purpose of seeing that the British Treasury and the colon}' were not involved in larger or heavier liabilities than was intended when the act passed. At the end of the period named by the company as that in which the experiment might be fairly tried, they found they could not go on, and they claimed, under the terms agreed on, to be relieved from the debt due to the Government, and they claimed also a certain sum to be obtained from the sale of lands in New Zealand. lie was astonished to hear the noble duke deny that the New Zealand Company had any moral claim to relief; for whatever might be a strict construction of the act of Parliament, it Avas impossible, he thought, for any man, dealing with the act of Parliament in the same honorable manner as he would deal with a transaction in private affairs, to say that the New Zealand Company had no claim whatever. Their lordships should recollect that the capital concerned was the whole of the capital of the New Zealand Company ; and, under the circumstances, it appeared to him that to have repudiated the claim would not have been to act an honourable or even an honest part. It had been quite truly stated that no understanding with a Secretary of State could bind Parliament to pecuniary obligations, but he rested the claims of the company simply on the wording of the act of Parliament. The noble duke said the company asked for inquiry, and that, pending that inquiry, Parliament ought not to deal with the subject. lie agreed that inquiry into this matter was right and proper, and he trusted that in another session the House of Commons would institute a searching investigation respecting it. For his own part, all he desired was that the inquiry should be as strict as possible, and that every letter ever written on the subject, public or private, should be produced and examined. Without defending all the proceedings of .the company, which were frequently marked by a great want of judgment and prudence, still be was happy in being able to come to the conclusion that there was nothing whatever that in the slightest degree reflectedontbebonourorprobityof the gentlemen by whom the affairs of the company were conducted. The noble earl then proceeded to notice two of the charges brought against the company ; — one of misapplication of the public money intrusted to them, and the other having reference to the sending out of a certain legal opinion to the colony. With respect to the first, he bad such confidence in both the gentlemen who filled the office of commissioner, that he was sure that nothing of an improper character would be sanctioned by. them. With respect to the legal opinion, he would only say, without attempting at that time to go into a history of all that took place, that in 3849 the papers laid before Parliament and sent to the colony expressly n entioned the fact of fhe existence of the opinion which had been adverted to as unfavourable to the company. Consequently, the circumstance of an opinion of that sort having been given had been known to all the world for three years, and yet during that time no attempt bad been made to unsettle the arrangement made, and now insinuated to have been unduly influenced by the withholding of that opinion. His own opinion was that the settlement between the Company and the Nelson settlers was an advantageous conlusion of the affair for the settlers ; and, as the existence of the opinion which had been referred to Avas publicly known for three years, be said, let there be an inquiry by all means ; but in the meantime let the bargain made be adhered to, and, in justice to the New Zealand Company, let the arrangement go on as suggested by the Government. He (Earl Grey) thought it an error that there was not some clause in this bill declaring that any future liabilities which under the act of 1847 might be held fo come on the Imperial Government should be defrayed from colonial funds by the Government of New Zealand. Those claims could not be claims on the British Treasury and nation/ He had entered at some length on these preliminary parts of the subject, because he felt that not only the pecuniary but far higher interests of individuals were at stake ; and, knowing the history of those long and complicated transactions, he had thought it but clue to those persons that he should make some statement in their vindication. With respect to the larger subject, his noble friend who spoke second entered into questions of such a nature that to discuss them properly would require a volume rather than a speech. The noble lord did not seem to have read his history very correctly, for one was astoni&hed to hear him, when speaking of those old British colonies which were now the United States, intimate that they had complete power over land legislation, war, and trade. [Lord Lyttelton, — "By their Charter."] A nice distinction ; but had the noble lord considered what he meant when he said they had unrestricted trade ? There were enactments similar in their nature to the Navigation laws before the time of Oliver Cromwell ; and that was a subject of constant dispute with the colonists. Instead of their having xmrestricted trade, the whole notion of European politicians was that they should have plantations, with which they should have exclusive trade. That was the notion of France, it was the notion of England, and it was shared by all the nations of Europe. And so with respect to the land. Had his noble friend not seen the accounts of those disputes which aro&e in the early days of the New England colonies, and in the course of which one of the complaints made was, that the colonists were nol able to cut a single tree in their boundless forests because the tices woie to be kept for the British Navy. With respect to colonial legislation, it was quite true that there was no Secretary for ihe Colonies in those days, but there was a certain Board of Trade and Plantations; and atavery early period indeed it was found necessmy to invest that

boavil Avith power to disallow the acts of Colonial Legislatures. From the time of Charles 11. downwards, that power had been exercised. There were three or four provisions of the bill before the house which lie thought open to objection. PTo believed, in (he first instance, that the prcniiwial councils must exercise a large proportion of the powers of Legislation. It was physically impossible that the General Legislature in the present state of the country should meet frequently enough to deal with all matters, but it was iii>ht pio\i->ion .should be made for establishing such a geuer.il legislature. An absurd war of tariffs was already beginning in the Australian colonies, and they had common interests which rendered it necessary to have some joint legislative authority. The Government, had followed the course lie had proposed to take by giving to the general Legislature an overriding authority. It was incorrect to speak of the authority of the two kinds of legislature as concurrent ; it was not concurrent. "With respect to the veto of the Crown, his notion always had been that, for the sake of tie colonies themselves, the Crown ought to preserve that power which from the days of Charles it had been found necessary to assert — he meant the power of the Crown, if it disapproved an act of the Colonial Government, to disallow that colonial law. The ablest governor might commit mistakes. Acts might be passed which very seiiously affected the interests and honour of the empire ; and, if the attempt were made to define beforehand, with the strict accuracy necessary in an act of Parliament, Wh.it were the questions on which the Crown should possess those powers, and what were the questions on which it sh<<uld not, there was danger ofghing rise to a conflict of jurisdiction ; whereas, if the Crown exercised the power in discretion, it would exercise it so as to prevent, it being felt any practical hardship or grievance, and also so as to avert any serious risk, of a conflict of authorities. A conflict of authorities did take place in the United Stales, but there a well- contrived machinery existed for the purpose of bringing those points to a speedy conclusion, by means of the Supreme Court. There was no analogous court in this country ; and, from the distance of the colonies, it would be impossible to work such a tribunal. If a law were passed by one local legislature, unjustly affecting another, the latter -would be able to petition her Majesty in Council on the subject. What, he asked, was the practical inconvenience of the power of disallowing colonial acts on the part of the Crown ? It was so well known that the Imperial Government would .not interfere without good cause, that there could be no want of confidence in the discretion with which that power would be exercised. It ought also to be observed that in the rare cases where disallowance took place, the disallowance vitiated no acts done under the measure disallowed. An objection had been stated to a period of two years for disallow- ■ ance ; but cases had occurred in which amendments were suggested at home* and adopted in the colony, so that the exercise of the veto was avoided. Ha\ ing alluded to cases of the kind which had occurred in Canada and New Brunswick, the noble earl referred, in the next place, to the appointment of superintendents, Pie thought it a mistake to make them elective. It had hitherto been the glory of British Government that executive government emanated from the sovereign. Those officers would discharge duties analogous to those of the sheriffs of .counties. In the days of-the Norman kings those sheriffs were officers of great importance. It was of vital importance that the governor should exercise a substantial control over those local authorities. But these superintendents \would be independent -of the governor. It ought to be well considered whether there were not seeds of anarchy in the arrangements proposed. To come next to the question of the constitution of the general Legislature ; the change in the constitution of the general .Legiijl itive Council was, in his (Earl Grey's) opinion, most unfortunate. lie was prepared to say, from his experience that the most defective part of -our colonial constitutions in North America was the Legislative Councils. Under the "Canada Act of 1791 the Legislative Councillors were to be appointed for life ; but it was absurd to talk of such a Legislative Council as an imitation of the House of Lords — an institution which was peculiar to this country, and which Parliament could no moie create than it could create the full-grown oak tree (hear) — ,w"iich, as had been said, had grown up as a par 1 of our own institutions from their commencement, like which there was no other body in any country in (he world, and of which no imitation had yet been in the slightest degree successful. In the Canada Act it was intended to create a body like the House of Lords ; not a small body of oligarchs, independent of Crown and people, and yet possessing no substantial weight in the country, but a body of persons holding thoir seats by hereditary succession, a real and bonafide aristocracy. But the nature of things was too strong for Mr. Pitt and the act of 1791, and the clauses introduced into it had remained a dead letter ; no hereditary peers had ever been created in Canada; the Legislative Council had been a body of mere nominees. The result had been very far from satisfactory. lie (Earl Grey) did not think there were indications that the Legislative Council possessed that weight and authority, that command over public opinion, which it ou^ht to possess to make it substantially of use ; and it had been necessary more than once, in different colonies, to alter the feeling and temper of that body by an addition. It was only creating a sort of oligarchy; there were not persons possessing the weight to justify Parliament in giving them the power of interfering to stop Legislation. It, was originally proposed in this bill that the Legislative Council should not consist of more than 15. Suppose, then, a mistake had been made in the first nomination, eight men could have stopped all legislation, however useful or necessary, and upon which the representatives of the Crown and the people were agreed. This mischievous inteference with legislation could only be prevented by the use of the discretion now proposed to be left to the Ci own of putting-an unlimited number of members in the Legislative Council. The state of the Treasurybench reminded him that he was tedious. [There were but two or three members of the Government on the Treasury-bench, and not a dozen peers in the house. The Earl of Derby had left his usual place, and was sitting on the woolsack by the side of Lord Redesdale, who had succeeded the Lord Chancellor as Speaker; the noble earl appeared to be occasionally conversing with Lord Kedesdale and Lord Lyttelton, who was also on the woolsack.] These questions were important, and it was his duty to slate his opinion upon them, and he would submit to the noble earl that, in the situation which he occupied, it was his duty to pay some attention to what he, (Earl Grey) was saying. The Earl of Derby was sorry to say lie had heard every word the noble earl had spoken for the last hour and three quarters. '(Some laughter,) Eaz-1 Grey had no doubt the noble earl possessed the enviable capacity of listening and yet carrying on an interesting conversation. (A laugh.) lie wished to suggest to the House that it was extremely inconvenient that men should 'be withdrawn from the Assembly to endeavour to give some weight, which you covilcl not succeed in doing, to the Legislative Council. He agreed with the noble Lord (Lord Lyttelton) that if there were to be nominees at all, they had better &it alone than vith the others in council ; but as a separate branch of the Legislature they would not have the authority they ought to have. Next, as to the proposed change with regard to tbo appropriation of the land fund : — it had been suggested that the same change ought to be made in other colonies. As a general rule it'seemed to be desirable that Pailiament should keep 'the power of laying down the general rule %o be observed in disposing of the waste lands of the Crown in the more important colonies. The change proposed was no novelty, as some sup-

posed ; for years in many of the colonies the Colonial Legislature had boon allowed to regulate this matter — in Canada, Nova Scotia, New Brun - wick. In New Zealand there wore strong reasons why this power of regulating the disposal of waste lands should be exercised by the colonial Legislature ; owing to the proceedings of the New Zealand Company a very complicated state of things had arisen ; but the power should have been given to the individual provinces rather than tothe general Legislature Great hardship might arise to a particular province. Canterbury might wish to reduce the price below £3, but Auckland, Wellington, and the older settlements might object, thinking that they would thus get the best settlers. It was of great importance that the produce of waste lands should be appropriated, and, if possible, by a local authority. The object of selling land instead of giving it away was to insure its going into hands that could make the best use of it, and to take care that the money was so applied that it should be returned in value to the settlers. He thought they ought to have given the appropriation of the land fund not to the general Legislature, but, if possible, to the municipalities, and until municipalities were created to the provincial Legislatures. He considered that this was n most important crisis in the history of their colonial empire, and that much depended upon the course which they now pursued. He concurred in the opinion that, as many of the colonies were now growing up to manhood, it was necessary to act towards them unon different principles and to adopt a different policy to that which had been adopted in the earlier stages of their social progress. He thought, however, that in doing this they ought not to depart from the old and established colonial system of the country ; that they ought not to give up any of the constitutional powers hitherto possessed by the Crown, but that they ought to exercise those powers judiciously and carefully. He was convinced from reflection that those powers had grown up in the course of a long series of years from the wants of the colonies and from the force of circumstances, and that the system was one which, judiciously and discreetly worked, enabled the colonies to enjoy all tint was really substantial and useful to them of what was called self-government, while it maintained on the part of the Crown an authority which, though it might frequently slumber, could yet, when the case required it, be called into play, should its exercise be demanded by the imperial interests. He thought experience had proved that this theory of the system of colonial government was not altogether mistaken or fallacious. He would, for example, direct their lordships' attention to the present state of the North American colonies. It was .to him a subject of rejoicing, and in some measure of pride, that those great possessions of the British empire were in the condition of prosperity which they now enjoyed. In 1846 they were in a very different state, and difficulties of no ordinaiy character had to be surmounted before they were brought to their present condition. Up to 1846 the system .of government now established had not, in any one of those colonies, been really brought into successful and harmonious operation. Indeed, in every one of .those colonies, up to that period, there were great points in dispute, and great difficulties were perpetually arising, even with the ablest governors. Even in Canada, the most important of (those colonies, the two races of inhabitants -were divided ; there was no general concurrence and agreement as to the principles of government to be established ; and that most distinguished, rtble, and excellent man, the late Lord Metcalf, expressed the greatest doubt and apprehension as to the future woi'king of the system. In Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward's Island the system of -government could hardly be said at that time to have beent brought into operation at all, but it had now been brought into most complete and satisfactory operation in all those colonies, and that, too, in spite of commercial changes which, in the first instance, necessarily excited great alarm and produced extensive private distress. Notwithstanding those circumstances and the encouragement given in -this country to those of the colonists who from time to time were discontented with the measures of the local Government, they saw now in Canada the spectacle of a united people ; the French and English inhabitants were acting harmoniously together, tlie great principles of constitutional government were fully recognised, and the Government of the mother country were looked up to with affection and esteem ; so much so, indeed, that the cry of "annexation," which a short time ago was raised under the pressure of political discontent, had absolutely ceased, and there was no 'longer a trace of it to be discovered. Canada was at this moment making a more rapid progress in wealth, in population, and in all the elements of greatness, than any of the neighbouring States, while the system of its government might safely challenge comparison, as being in his opinion infinitely more favourable to real freedom, to real happiness, and to real social advancement, than that of any of the adjacent States. He could not help recommending their lordships to read a very interesting work which had recently been published by a friend of his, Mr. Tremenheere, and which contained some valuable information as to the present state of Canada. To show the improvement which had taken place in the credit of the colony, lie might mention that while in 1846 one of the officers of the Executive Council of Canada found it impossible to dispose of the Six per Cent. Canadian Bonds in this country, except at a heavy discount, he was informed that by the last accounts the same bonds were now at a premium of more that 15 per cent. In New South Wales and New Brunswick a similar state of things existed, and in those colonies this change had been effected without, as he believed, any undue pressure upon individuals, all fair claims of j>ersons who had accepted offices in the expectation that they would be permanent having been provided for. Now, he might remind those noble lords, and those members of the other House, who were advocates of what was called colonial reform, that so far as the legal powers of the Crown were concerned, the Crown possessed in Canada and in North America all that authority which they conceived to be so objectionable and oppressive. He thought, then, he was not wrong in saying, that in order to establish such a system as had been suggested by some noble lords, it was not necessary to alter a system which had been in force for 200 years, or to part with any authority which, for thnt length of time, the Crown had possessed ; but that all that was requisite was to exercise with judgment and discretion that authority which he believed it was necessary for the safety and permanence of the empire to maintain. He would not offer any opposition to the bill. Indeed, he believed that upon the whole it would have a very beneficial effect, and that its postponement for another year would be very disadvantageous to New Zealand. Lord Lyttelton said, in explanation, that a distinction ought to be carefully observed between the Canterbury colony and the Canterbury Association. That the Canterbury Association at home had, in consequence of miscalculations, been in some degree of difficulty he would not attempt to deny; but the Canterbury colony had become a flourishing settlement, and had, indeed, arrived at a greater pitch of prosperity than any other settlement had attained within the same time. The Duke of Newcastle observed, that in what ho had before said he by no means discountenanced the entertainment of the moral claims of the New Zealand Company, if they could be substantiated. The Bill was then- read a second time.