Provincial Council,

Nelson Examiner and New Zealand Chronicle, Volume XVIII, Issue 47, 11 June 1859, Page 3

Provincial Council,

Tuesday, June 7, 1859. All the members present except Messrs. Dodson and Eedwood ; the Speaker in the chair. PETITION. Mr. Cubtis presented the following petition from the Nelson Board of Works :—: — "To the Honourable the Provincial Council of the Province of Nelson. "The Memorial of the Nelson Board of Works respectfully sheweth — " That on the 9th of May your memorialists addressed a letter to the Provincial Government, complaining of the great public annoyance caused by cattle scraying and feeding about the streets of Nelson, and requesting that the Board might he empowered to put a stop to the nuisance, by punishing the owners of cattle so offending. " That beyond sending a copy of the letter to the Provincial Council, the Government took no further notice of the request of the Board, which may perhaps bo accounted for by the fact that some of the Government officials are amongst the offenders in respect to the matter complained of. " That in reply to a question from an honourable member in his place in Council, the Provincial Solicitor is understood to have stated that it was not the intention of the Government to take any further steps in this matter. " That feeling it to be a great public grievance that a large amount of the works effected by the Board at the expense of the ratepayers are destroyed by these caitle owned by comparatively few persons, to say nothing of the absurdity of the streets of a city being turned into a common, your memorialists have determired to do their utmost to put an end to the annoyance.

"That your memorialists would further impress upon your honourable Council the fact, that in the proportion in which the town acres have become occupied and built upon, the ground upon wliieh the cattle formerly grazed has become diminished, and the effect of an increase of occupiers has augmented the number of cattle to be fed, so that the evil is magnified in a two-fold ratio, until the nuisance has become intolerable.

"That the whole of the town acres and land on the adjacent hills within the town boundary have now become private property, on which rates are levied ; and that, from the case of a poor man being allowed to keep a cow on public land during the early period of the settlement, the streets and private land have now become a common used by persons carrying on trade as milkmen, and keeping from two to ten head of cattle respectively.

"That the consequence of permitting the streets to be considered a common, has resulted in a great degree of lawlessness in the keepers of cattle ; and frequent complaints are made by ratepayers, that their fences, &c, are continually and wilfully destroyed. "Your memorialists therefore respectfully pray that your honourable Council will give the matter your consideration, and that you will be pleased to pass a resolution requesting his Honour the Superintendent to give his assent to any by-law made by the Board on the subject, so that the grievance complained of may be abolished. " And your memorialists, as in duty bound, will ever pray.

"Wm. Wells, W. Long Weey, Joseph Webb, J. R. Dodson." t The petition was read and ordered to lie on the tableI EEPOET OF HAEBOUE COMMITTEE. The Peovikoial Sbcbetabx brought up the report

of the Select Committee appointed to consider the improvements necessary to the harbour of Nelson. The report was read, and was to the effect of recommending certain improvements in the harbour, including the erection of a new jetty for the use of the mail steamers, and a harbour light on the Boulder Bank. The report was received and ordered to lie on the table. REPORT OP HOSPITAL BILL COMMITTEE. Dr. Renwick brought up the report of the Select Committee on the Hospital Bill. The report was read by the Clerk, and was to the effect of recommending certain amendments in the bill. The report was received and ordered to lie on the table. REPORT OF IMMIGRATION COMMITTEE. Dr. Monro brought up the report of the Select Committee appointed to consider the report of the Immigration Commissioners. The report, which was read by the Clerk, called attention to the disproportion between the sexes in this province, and recommended that the Immigration Commissioners should endeavour to correct the disproportion in future. The report was received and ordered to lie on the table. BOARD OP WORKS DEBENTURE BILL. Dr. Renwick moved the thi-d reading of the Board of Work 3 Debenture Bill. Mr. Curtis seconded the motion. Agreed to, and bill read a third time and passed. nAVEN CEMETERY LAND COMMITTEE.

Mr. Saunders (on behalf of Mr. Dodson) moved that the report of the Haven Cemetery Committee be taken into consideration and adopted. He said it was almost a repetition of what had fallen from the Provincial Secretary the other evening. It expressed no opinion, and censured no one ; and as it was a mere statement of facts, he thought the Council would have no difficulty iv adopting it. Mr. Parker seconded the motion.

Dr. Monro, before the motion was carried, wished to make an appeal to the honourable gentleman who moved the adoption of the report. Ou a previous evening, before the Select Committee was appointed, that gentleman had expressed himself rcvy strongly on the question ; and not he alone, but some other members. It was quite evident that they had prejudged the matter ; aud the language they used imputed most dishonourable conduct to Major Richmond, the late Mr. Dillon, and Mr. Poynter. Ho (Dr. Monro) had supported a motion for an. inquiry into this matter, feeling that after the charges that \ had been made, it was due to all parties that they should be thoroughly searched into. A committee had, accordingly, been appointed, and they now had its report before them, and it appeared that the charges j made on a former evening could not be substantiated. They were, in point of fact, now proved to be unfounded. Under these circumstances, he put it to tha honourable gentleman, opposite (fllr. Sauitclers) whether it would not be the fairest and most candid course, and most in accordance with the position of the case, as now before the Council, that he should publicly avow that he had been mistaken, and retract those imputations of corruption made against certain gentlemen, with the same publicity with which he had given utterance to them. He thought that it would be but right that this should b3 done, and expected that the honourable gentleman would gladly avail himself of the suggestion now thrown out. He (Dr. Monro) had avowedly abstained, on a former occasion, before the appointment of tho committee, from expressing any opinion on the matter; but he would now say that it was perfectly clear that tho charges and insinuations made had proved to bo entirely unfounded. Certain gentlemen had jumoed to the conclusion that a cemetery of twelve acres had been reserved at the port by the New Zealand Company ; but there was not a tittle of evidence to prove this. On some maps there was no appearance of the words " Haven Cemetery." On those on which the words did appear, there was no acreage marked in the schedule of reserves. With regai - d to Major Richmond's share in the business, ho believed it was neither more nor less than this : — He was one of an assessing board, who placed the upset value upon lands to be sold by auction under the resolutions of July ; but the chief responsibility rested j with the Commissioner of Crown Lands, tho late Mr. Dillon, of whom he would say no more than this, that he believed a more unselfish or more uncorrupt man never existed [hear, hear]. Major Richmond, he understood, concurred in the assessment of this piece of land surrounding the cemetery, but before he had any intention of buying it. At a later period, when he had determined to settle in Nelson and build a house, he requested Mr. B runner to look out for him a suitable site ; and two were pointed out to him, one being the site at the Cliffs, the other a site then vacant, not far from where the College was in course of erection. ■ After an examination of both sites, Major Richmond gave the preference to the former ; and it was accordingly, after due notice, put up to auction and knocked down to him. This he believed to be a true statement of the facts of the case, and there was nothing in the report which contradicted it. At the same time, with regard to the report, he was bound to say that he did not like it. He thought it somewhat Jesuitically written, and intended to convey insinuations which were not openly or frankly avowed. But he trusted that the explanations to be made by the honourable gentleman would remove any such impression. Mr. Pabkeb was inclined to think thnt the matter had not been fully investigated ; if it had been, the report, ho believed, would admit of the use of much stronger language than that referred to. He could hardly conceive 1 hat the New Zealand Company, or any other company, would have laid out 6uch a small patch as that now reserved — little more than one acre — for a large town. He believed, also, that if further inquiry had been made, evidence could have been produced, as he had been given to understand, to the effect thnt a portion of this very land had beea previously applied for, and that the applicant had been told that the land could not bo sold, as it was a cemetery reserve. Mr. Simmonds made a few remarks in support of the motion, and added that he did not feel disposed to retract any of his former remarks with reference to this matter.

The Provincial Seceetaey called attention to the fact that for some years this cemetery was considered to have been abandoned ; and he believed that no corruption had taken place. Mr. Saundebs, in reply, said that he was not inclined to retract anything that he had said, especially after the consideration of the facts that had come under his notice as a member of the committee. He believed that that land was already marked out as a public cemetery, and that a portion of the very spot so marked had been purchased by Major Richmond. The*qucstion of the adoption of the report was then put. The Council divided : — Ayes, 8. Noes, 11. The Provincial Solicitor The Provincial Secretary Mr. M'Rao Mr. Wells Mr. Kelling Mr. Curtis Mr. Sharp Dr. Monro Mr. Parker Mr. Elliott Mr. Baigent Mr. Wemyss Mr. Simmonds Mr. Gibbs Mr. Saunder3. Mr. Mackay Mr. Marsden Dr. Renwick Mr. Hewetson. The motion was negatived, and the report was, therefore, not adopted. HOSPITAL BILL. On the motion of Dr. Renwick, seconded by Mr. Shaep, the Council went into committee on the Nelson Hospital Bill ; Mr. Parker in the chair. The various clauses were then discussed, and some amendments recommended by the select committee were adopted. The Council then resumed, and the chairman reported the bill. MESSAGES. Two messages from his Honour the Superintendent were received and read, enclosing the Appropriation Bill, and also a return of the sums received under the Education Act in tho various districts. THE EDUCATION ACT. Mr. Gibbs : Sir — In rising to speak upon the sub-

ject of the motion standing in my name, I am of opinion that the subject should, and I had understood that it woidd, have been brought forward by the Government, but I could not let this session pass without expressing my opinion on a matter upon which the public feel so keen an interest. I trust also that honourable members who are also members of the Central Board of Education, will endeavour, as far as possible, to forget that they are members of that board, and represent on this subject the wishes of their constituencies, for although I fear that the majority of the Council are in favour of this rate, I think thero can be no doubt in the minds of honourable members, that, outside, the majority are decidedly against a tax so notoriously unfair. A tax that taxes alike the millionaire and the man who has to earn his daily bread, that would be enough one would think to make it sufficiently obnoxious ; but no, it is not only a poll tax — a most un-Engli3h and decidedly unpopular tax— but fearing that would not make it sufficiently unpalatable, it is made in some districts partial, having certain boundary limits ; thnfc is, one family within the boundary of three miles, but with only a river or two or high hill to cross, is subject to the rate, when another, without the said boundary, but with perhaps a tolerable road, is exempt. This is especially the case in the district I have the honour to represent (and I presume would be the same in the Wairau or any other outlying district), where people living in the outskirts of the district, as they do in the district of Takuka, feel that they are educating the children of some ten or twelve families who are living near the school, and who are quite able to pay for the education of their own children, and I am "sure do not want their neighbours to do it for them, although a little assistance from Government might be acceptable, and which I believcthev received either from Government or the SchoolSoeiety before this scheme was introduced. I would wish it to be understood that I am not objecting to the scheme of assisting to educate the children of those who are either unable or too careless to do so themselves ; but one of our reasons for so doing, I apprehend, is not only to teach the rising generation their ABC, but to improve their morals and advance i their social position. Now, sir, not having ever been summoned for debt myself, I cannot, therefore, guess the exact ratio in which it lowers a man in his own estimation, or in that of his family, to let them know that, for conscience' sake, we had to let ourselves be summoned ; and that half the people had the same feelings on the matter ; and not from inability to pay, but to show their antipathy to the system. A very pretty lesson for the children, being taught to disobey the law. I think that the sooner such a state of things ceases the better : and, although I should have wished the law altogether amended, and that the parents of those children who attend the schools should have paid more than ss. per head for each child, I do not think that is any reason we should any longer annoy the public, by pretending to enforce an obnoxious law ; and which, if now enforced upon recent defaulters, having allowed previous ones to .lapse, tvouJcl be an additional injustice. I would, before sitting down, again repeat that, although allowing that a system of Government schools may have its advantages, I would wish attendance at such schools to be voluntary, which, under the present system, it can scarcely bo considered to be ; and not follow the example of some European states, making our children machine?, and destroying the best feelings with which nature hussupplied them, viz, thatof thelove and respect of children for their parents, which, by taking away all sense of obligation, making the Government arid not their parents responsible for their future welfare, would certainly reduce the respect, if not love, of the children for their parents, and which I believe it is acknowledged to do, under the system I refer to. I would, therefore, move, " That in the opinion of this Council it was expedient that a Bill should have been brought in to amend the Education Act ; but, it being too late to do so this session, aud that considering there has already a large amount been voted for Educational purposes, and that the rats of one pound per head as a poll tax is found in so many cases to be a great hardship, it should not be collected." Dr. Ecnwick seconded the motion.

Dr. MonhO thought that the motion before the Council waa one upon which some opinion should bo expressed. With regard to the first part of it there would be much difference of opinion ; but with regard to the concluding portion, he thought there could be none ; for if they adopted it, itwould amount to this, that it would be a recommendation to the Executive to do a thing which would be a violation of the existing law. WhatevermighLbetheir opinion of that law, there could be no question that so longas it remained in force, it was the duty of the Executive to carry it out [hear, hear], and if it was the wish of the Council that it should be altered, the way to accomplish that was by its repeal, and not by a recommedation to the Executive to set it at defiance [hear, hear]. Now, with regard to the first part of the resolution, there had been at an earlier period of the session a general impression and belief that the Executive intended submitting some measure to the Council to alter the present Education Act ; but so far as ho was informed, the Executive had abandoned the idea ; and he found that common report alleged that this resolution had been come to in consequence of the expressed opposition to all change on the part of many members of the Council, among whom he had heard his own name prominently mentioned. He wished, therefore, to take this opportunity of stating that he was by no means opposed to all changes in the Education Act ; but he certainly was opposed to hasty and ill-considered alterations of an organized plan of school instruction, which was conferring a large amount of benefit upon the people of the province [hear, hear]. He thought it was very undesirable to keep alive perpetual expectations of change in a matter of this sort, or to touch it at all, excepting after careful and full consideration, lie was therefore not in the least surprised to hear that a bill initiated by the Executive in the hurry and bustle of the session, and to which it was impossible that they could give much time and attention, had been given up by them. He thought that if the Education Act was to be given up, the subject should be considered by the Government during the recess ; and that any measure which they submitted should be the result of much careful study of the question in all its bearings ; of an amount of consideration, in fact, commensurate with its importance. If the Government had brought in a measure on this subject, ho for one would havo been prepared to approach it in the fairest spirit. He himself, as was well known, had, on a former session, proposed alterations in the Education Act, which would have had the effect of altering the manner in which the money was raised, and he should have no objection to seeing the taxation for that object fall more upon property than it did, and less upon heads [hea' 1 , hear]. If a bill were brought in to accomplish this, it would receive his support ; but he trusted that whatever was done would be the result of full and careful consideration, and that they should have no hasty tampering with a matter in which the interests of the province were so seriously concerned.

Mr. Kelling opposed the motion. He said if the Government possessed the entire confidence of the Council, it might probably be allowable to pass such a resolution ; but the contrary was notoriously the case. He alluded to the general satisfaction which the working of the Education Act was giving ; but he blamed the Government for the inefficient manner in which they collected the rate.

Mr. Simmonds opposed the motion, although he would be glad to support a measure that would place the burden of the support of education more on property rather than on individuals.

Mr. Saunders was sorry to find such a motion proposed during the present session. The honourable member, at some length, went into a statement of the want of more funds for the support of education in the provinco ; and gave a painful picture of the niggardly economy which the Central Board wero compelled to adopt in the payment of their teachers, owing to this want of funds.

Dr. Renwick said, that in seconding the resolution, he had done so merely with a view to induce discussion, ns, of course, he should not bo a party to authorize a breach of the law. He was opposed to the present system, on account of its expensiveness ; and that although while there was a large provincial revenue as at present, this wa< not felt, the time would probably come when this would not be the case. He was also opposed to the system because it pressed heavily on a certain portion of the community, whose conscientious scruples would not allow them to avail

themselves of any advantages to be derived from the system.

Mr. M'Rae opposed the motion. He defended the present system, and alluded especially to the fact, that in the district he represented, children of almost every denomination were receiving education at the public school.

Mr. Sharp stated that he thought Mr. Gibbs must be pretty well satisfied that on account of the last portion of his motion it would be rejected, and that Mr. Gibbs would not accept any amendment omitting that portion, as that embodied the real question he was desirous of affirming. He thought it was a pity Mr. Gibbs had not attended more to the discussions which had already taken place in the Council on this question. Now it was well known, almost before the first Council had been elected, at any rate when it had met, the principle was affirmed that a more general and a better system of public education should be established ; and there could be no doubt that that expression had been universally endorsed out of doors. In consequence, a commission was appointed to inquire and report upon the best system of education for the province, and upon their report an act of this Council was passed, and last session considerable amendments were introduced into it by another act. Of course, it coidd not be expected that any act that could be passed would give universal satisfaction ; but tho principal objectors, namely, the Catholics, he would not now allude to, but woidd commence first with the two parties, objectors to the act, more particularly alluded to by Mr. Gibbs. The first asserted that it was unjust, inasmuch as the same amount had to be paid by the poor and the rich. He certainly was surprised that Mr. Gibbs should agree with an assertion so untenable ; a certain commodity was offered to the public, and by what reason should one person pay a less price for the same article than another person ? Would a person who went into a store to purchase a ton of flour, or a bag of sugar, or any thing else, expect to pay a higher price than a poor man because he himself was rich ? Now, if there were any oppressiveness on one party, he conceived it was on the rich person, because it had been admitted by every one that they who paid the same tax hardly availed themselves of the benefit, but in reality were contributing by their payment to the support of the education of the poorer class. Others asserted, so Mr. Gibbs said, that the Act was too compulsive. If that were an objection, the very reverse had been urged by all objectors ; and it had been stated by them that the Act would be more compatible with their views if it did compel the parents to send their children, instead of making them pay the tax and leaving the attendance voluntary. The only party, he considered, who really had any conscientious objections and scruples was the Catholic party ; but he ("errainly was surprised to find that the Catholics had not availed themselves of the permissive clause passed last session, enabling them, on certain conditions, to have their own schools, and receive that portion of the rates contributed by them. The real gist of the objections of a great many was the payment of a direct tax out of their pockets.

Mr. Parker spoke in favour of the present system of education, which he considered was working most satisfactorily.

Mr. Gibds, in reply, said that he did not object to granting assistance towards the education of children whose parents were unable to pay for the same ; yet ho considered that the parents who received such assistance should show more interest in the education of their children. The motion was put. The Council divided : — Ayes, 1. Noes, 18. Mr. Gibbs. Mr. Saunders Mr. Simmonds Mr. Baigent Mr. Hewetson Mr. Parker Mr. Marsden Mr. Kelling Mr. M'Rae Mr. Mackay The Provincial Solicitor The Provincial Secretary Mr. Wells Mr. Curtis Dr. Monro Mr. Wemyss Mr. Sinclair Mr. Elliott Mr. Sharp. Dr. Renwiek declined to vote. The motion was negatived. ALTERATION OP ROADS BILL. The report of the Select Committee on the Alteration of Roads Bill was taken into consideration and adopted. On the motion of Mr. Kelling, seconded by Mr. M'Rae, the Council went into committee on the bill ; Mr. Mackay in the chair. The various clauses of the bill were then adopted, and the Council resumed. DOG NUISANCE ACT. Mr. Saunders, pursuant to notice, asked the Provincial Solicitor whose duty it was to see that the constables in the country districts earned out the provisions of the Dog Nuisance Act. The Provincial Solicitor replied that it was the duty of the magistrates ; and that he was very glad to find that Mr. Saunders himself wa3 now on the Commission of the Peace, and hoped that he would see the act carried out efficiently. THE WAIRAU FERRY. Mr. Elliott rose to call attention to a report which had appeared in the newspapers during his absence from Nelson, by which in the debate on the subject of the Wairau Ferry, the Provincial Solicitor was made to say that he (Mr. Elliott) was of opinion that a ferry could not be established over the Wairau river ; and he wished to ask the Provincial Solicitor if the report was correct. The Provincial Solicitor, in reply, stated that he could not answer the question as to whether he had been correctly reported or not, as neither of the newspaper reports could bo relied on, and that what he had stated, according to his recollection, was, that he had been informed by another member of the Council that Mr. Elliott had changed his mind on the subject of the feasibility of establishing this ferry.

Mr. Elliott said he had felt great surprise at reading the remarks made by the Provincial Solicitor, which stated that he (Mr. E.) had changed his opinion as to the necessity of establishing a ferry over the Wairau river, for so far from such being the case, he had repeatedly urged upon various members of the Government the necessity of such a ferry, and had taken considerable pains, both by personal examination of the banks of the river and by collecting information from other sources, to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion as to the place where a ferry could be best stationed. It was true that on one occasion he had declined to incur tho responsibility of deciding what kind of ferry was best adapted for the Wairau river; but he had offered to accompany the Superintendent and Chief Surveyor to the spot, and there discuss the subject. Other business, however, led his Honour to break an appointment which he made about a year since to visit the Wairau, to decide what should be done in the matter, and the question had sinco been allowed to remain in abeyance until lately, when the person in charge of the accommodation house offered to build a boat if the Government would assist him. Mr. Sinclair and the Provincial Secretary made a few remarks on the subject, and the matter dropped. APPROPRIATION BILL. On the motion of the Provincial Secretary, seconded by the Provincial Solicitor, the Appropriation Bill was read a first time. The Council then adjourned. Turkish Telegraphs.— Although the fare from Constantinople to Pesth— a voyage of seven days— is 70 dollars, this does not include a state-room on the river-boats, for which 52 dollars additional is demanded ! Nevertheless, I had taken the precaution to telegraph from Constantinople to Galatz, to secure n room. A single message costs twenty francs, yet when we reached Galatz, six days afterwards, the message | had not arrived. The nearest approach to this which I ever experienced was in Ohio, where a message which I sent was three days and a half in going two hundred miles. — Bayard Taylor.