LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Nelson Examiner and New Zealand Chronicle, Volume VIII, Issue VIII, 28 July 1849, Page 87

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Thursday, Junb 21. On the motion of Mr. Ludlam, the bill to authorise the levying and collecting tolls on roads was read a first time. Mr. Ludlam then moved the suspension of the standing orders, and the bill was read a second time without discussion; and the Council went into committee; a portion of the provisions of the bill were considered, after which the Council having resumed, Mr. Setmou* presented the following resolution of the sub-committee appointed to inquire into the claims to compensation «f certain wanganui settlers : — - Council Chavbeb, Wednesday, Jane 19, 1840. Present— The Hon. Senior Military Officer, the Colonial Treasurer, Me»»n. Ludlam, Banaatyne, Moore, and Seymour. Resolved— That the clainu of the individual! hereunder written to compensation from the community cannot be admitted at a right, bat that under the peculiar circum. stances in which they arose it is deemed desirable that they should be entertained to such an extent as may upon further investigation be found equitable. Claims at Wanganui.— Captain Campbell, Messrs, Samuel Parkes, Charles 3maU, Tring, Harrison, John Day, Deighton, Lockcitt. , ■ Claim at the Hutt.— Mr. David M'Haxdie. Resolved — That as the right to compensation by Messrs. Ridgways, Hickson, & Co. lias been admitted by the Government, this committee recommend that his Excellency the Lieutenant. Governor should be 'requested to adopt such measures as shall equitably cancel their claim with as little delay as possible. Resolved— That this committee beg to decline making any farther recommendations in reipect ef any of the clainu which have been brought under their notice. (Signed) H. Sbyhoub, Chairman. The Governor said, that before putting the question to the Council, he would point out the position in which the question would stand if the report was adopted. The object of appointing a sub-committee was to decide what amount should be paid in each case. The Executive council had inquired into the matter, and came to a resolution that the claims ought to be recognised, but it was a question as to the amount of compensation to be paid. The sub-committee had left the matter just ' in the same position, and the Executive Council having no means of ascertaining the correct amount of damage, would have no alternative but to pay the claims in full. In the case of the sheriff also, it would follow as a matter of course that the Government could take no further proceedings in the matter. Mr. Seymour said that the subcommittee had no means of judging as to the exact amounts which should be paid. There was no evidence before them nor could they procure any. The Colonial Secretary said that the subcommittee were in the predicament of being required to make bricks without straw; they had no data to go upon. It appeared that both the Executive Council and the sub-committee were in the same position, being unable to obtain any evidence. Mr. Moore thought the only thing the subcommittee could do was to express an opinion that the claim, although not a legal one, was one which the Government ought to entertain, and they left to the Government to decide the amount to be paid in each case. The Atto&nby General, with a view to bring the .question to a conclusion, proposed the following resolution— " That this Council adopt the report of the sub-committee on the subject of compensation to settlers at Wanganui and the Hutt, - and recommend that the sums claimed by the individuals asking for compensation be paid to them whenever the Local Government may have funds for that purpoee." Mr. Moobb was sorry to oppose the resolution but he felt it his duty to do so as he was not prepared to vote that each claim should ■be paid in full. He thought it ought to be left to the Government to pay what sum appeared equitable, and he objected to the Council defining the amount to be paid. The question was then put and carried. Ayes — the Lieutenant-Governor, the Colonial Secretary, the Attorney-General, Mr. Seymour, and Mr. Greenwood. Noes — > The Colonial Treasurer, Messrs. Ludlam, Bannatyne, Hunter, and Moore^ The Council then adjourned till Friday. Friday, Junb 22. The Appropriation Bill was read a fch ird t and passed. The Dog Nuisance Bill was read a first time, and Dr. Monro gave notice of the second reading for the following Monday. The Council then went into Committee on the Turnpike 'Bill, and the remaining clauses were considered. The Colonial Secretary said, that < having stated his intention of entering on the minutes of the Council his reasons for desiring the-introduc-tion of the Education Bill, he would now read his minute on the subject. The minute was accordingly read, and the Council then adjourned until Monday. Monday, June 25. The Governor laid on the table a copy of ' the Blue Book for the year 1848. His Excellency said the reason of his doing so at so late a period of the session was, that the printed forms were only received in April last, and many of the re- ' turns had to be procured from distant settlements. The Governor also laid on the table the account of the total revenue for 1848, having received from Otago the returns relative to that settlement. His Excellency observed that the revenue was upwards of £18,000, and, therefore, he thought that in estimating it for the current year at £19,000 he hud not exceeded the probability. In the absence of Dr. Monro, Mr. Sjbtmour, moved the second reading of the Dog Nttjaance Bill. : „ Mr. Greenwood said that the Bill having begi brought in at so late a period in the session* he thought that some reason ought to have been given for its introduction, especially as there 1 mi already one Bill on the subject The principal objection which had been urged against that BUI, was, that the Police did not do their duty, and only took- small and inoffensive dogs. He thought the- sheep owners would fake care to kill all dogs in the country which were likely to be injurious to them, and the Bill did not affect dogs belonging to the Maories, which were the most troubksomev

Another objection to it was, that it was the first internal tax in this country, and on general principles be should oppose a tax which was not to be applied by the parlies who paid it. Tbe Colonial Secretary said that the best answer to the hon. member's first objection was, that the present bill had now been four years in existence, and had bean attempted to be pot in force but without success. He thought the fault could not always rest with the police. It was certainly a fault of the bill that it tempted the police to take up harmless dogs in order to make money for themselves, the consequence of which was that the public became disgusted with the bill. With regard to the country, the only law there was club law, and if that was found to act well, it was a reaion for legalizing it, and not allowing a thing which was beneficial to the community to be contrary to the law. With respect to Maori dogs, also, that objection could be discussed in committee, and in the towns he believed the Maories must be liable if the bill was to be put in operation at all. It was only on Saturday last that he and the Attorney- General were accosted by a gentleman who had lost several sheep by dogs, and who charged them (the Colonial Secretary and the Attorney' General) with great dereliction of duty in uot putting a stop to the nuisance. With regard to the objection to internal taxation, this could only be considered in the light of a penalty, as it was not for the purpose of raising money but of abating a nuisance. He hoped the bill would go through the second reading, and it could then be discussed in committee. Mr. Ludlam thought it would be well if the bill was subject to the same restrictions as the Road Bill, that, at the request of a majority of Magistrates it could be put; in force, but not otherwise. He considered the loss caused by Maori dogs to^be enormous, and he thought the Government could do a great deal to abate the nuisance by representing to the Maories the damage which was caused by their keeping so many dogs. The Governor said that, with regard to the taxation of Maori dogs, he was bound to state that the Government could nor, and would not, sanction it. He would remind the Council that the recent insurrection in Ceylon arose from the imposition of a dog tax, and he thought such a tax on Maori dogs would be very objectionable here, where the Maories had been accustomed to keep several dogs for so many years. Mr. Moore said that, with regard to what his Excellency had said respecting Maori dogs, he thought such an exemption would render the bill almost useless. There was a great deal in the bill he did not approve of. For instance, every dog might be killed which was not registered ; now, how could it be ascertained whether a dog was registered or not — was the dog to carry the register about with him ? He thought the sum of ten shillings would be a very heavy tax on many poor persons who kept dogs for useful purposes, such as for watch dogs, or for driving cattle. He did not think the bill would work well in its present form. The Attorney- General thought there was no difficulty as to the registration, as a person could easily ascertain if a dog was registered ; if not, he might kill it. With regard to the Dog Nuisance Bill at present in operation, the Maori police thought they were executing their duty by enticing dogs into tbe street with -pieces of meat; he remembered one day seeing a little dog in Mrs. Miller's garden ; a Maori policeman was trying to entice it out, and a little boy was protecting the dog, and calling on the bystanders, who drove away the policeman. As for the Maori dogs, they were only wanted for the purpose of driving pigs, and they were not required for that purpose in the town. He thought it would be very easy to persuade the Maories, that if they have the advantage of living in the town, they must be subject to the laws. He had spoken to several persons on tbe subject who spoke the Maorijlanguage, and had been living with Maories, and who expressed their opinion that the law would not be objectionable. He thought it would be a (great triumph for that Council to break through the custom of excepting Maories from all law, as if they were an inferior people, whereas in all other cases there was much said about their sagacity and superiority to all other savages. He was of opinion that the law might be made both simple and effective. The Governor said he understood the AttorneyGeneral to confine his remarks to the Maories in the neighbourhood of the town, but he understood the original proposition. to include Maories everywhere. As far as he had time to consider the subject, be did not object to include the Maories living in the town, but with regard to tbe country districts, where the natives kept a great many dogs for the purpose of hunting (pigs, he thought it would be a positive injustice to tax them, and for this reason he did not think the Government ought to put such a bill in operation. Mr. Greenwood moved that the bill be read again that day three months. He said he would take that opportunity of answering a few of the remarks which had been made on it. In the first place, with regard to what his Excellency had said, he observed that in the old dog ordinance there was no distinction between dogs belonging to the natives in the town and those belonging to the European population. If he thought the bill which was objected to had been in operation four or five years, and that it was found impossible to enforce it, that would be on objection to it ; but he believed it was the great amount of ridicule which prevented the police from putting it in force.^ If, as the Attorney- General had stated, a Maori 'policeman had endeavoured to entice an old lady's dog out of her garden, it would only be necessary to instruct them better in their duty. He thought if a man found a dog worrying his sheep that he would destroy the animal, even if the law made it penal to do so. With regard to the Mftories, he happened to know that the Maori»s in his neighbourhood, when it was explained to them that they would have to pay five shillings for each of their dogi, replied, that ma that case they should kill all their dogs, thusi flhew'ng that they had no objection to the law.. Indeed, some Maories had come to him the other day, and said that they wished to he under British law just the same as Europeans ; that they could not understand the distinctions which were made. Mr/ Hickson- seconded the amendment. He •objected to there being oae law for the natives

and another for the Europeans. The bill itself was objectionable on account of its arbitrary provisions. The Report of the sub-committee no the bill concluded with these words : — " We are aware that the method we suggest it contrary to the .law of England as it at present stands, but we suggest that it is precisely one of those cases in which the peculiar circumstances of the colony warrant such a departure/ He could not understand how those gentlemen (among whom, he believed, was the Attorney-General), could propose a law which was contrary to the law of England. The amendment was put and lost, and the original question being carried, the bill was read a second time, and the Council resolved itself into Committee upon it. The Committee having considered the^clauses of the bill, the Council resumed, and adjourned until Thursday. Thursday, June 28, The Country Roads Bill was read a third time, and passed. Mr. Sbtmour then moved that the bill to prevent the dog nuisance be read a third time. Mr. Hickson moved, as an amendment, that it be read a third time that day three months. The amendment was lost, and the bill read a thtrd time, and passed. The CojuBNtAL Secretary brought up the Report of the committee appointed to consider the subject of reprinting the Ordinances. The Committee recommended that of the ordinances not now in force, and such as were passed merely for the purpose of repealing others, the titles and analysis only should be reprinted, but that all other existing ordinances should be reprinted entire. The Report was adopted. Mr. Hickson brought up the Report of the sub-committee appointed to consider the best mode of levying Customs duties. The Report recommended that fixed duties should be imposed on seventy-three articles enumerated in a schedule, being the principal articles of consumption, and that fish oil, whalebone, and fins, arriving in foreign whalers, should be free of duty. Mr. Greenwood objected to the Council pledging itself to the details ; he was willing to adopt the Report without the schedule. The Colonial Treasurer moved that the Council doj adopt the Report without the schedule. Mr. Moore said that if the committee had been preparing the schedule for the purpose of arranging a scale of duties, they would have been more careful. It was however only intended as a suggestion. He should wish to see the Council adopt the list of articles contained in the schedule as those to which a fixed duty was applicable, even if they struck out the column containing the rates of duty. Mr. Greenwood objected to discriminating duties being levied upon ai tides from different parts of the world. He considered that a duty of lOper cent, was as much as could be levied without the risk of smuggling. He thought that the duty was too high on tobacco. The revenue obtained from it was falling off, and he attributed the decrease to the effects of smuggling. Mr. Hickbon would remind the hon. member that it was not a question upon which that Council could legislate, it was reserved for the Geueral Council. With respect to tobacco, he thought the falling off was not on account of smuggling, but in consequence of the present high price of the article. The Colonial Treasurer's motion was put and carried. Mr. Greenwood then brought forward a resolution, which, on a former occasion, he statedit to be his intention to submit to the Council : — * " That under an economical and well regulated system of Government an import duty of 10 per cent, is sufficient not only todefray it* ordinary curreutexpemes, but to supply funds for the maintenance of roadi, and the encouragement of emigration." He (Mr. G.) wished to pledge the Council to an opinion that the revenue, if properly managed, would not only be sufficient forjthe ordinary expenditure of the Government, but for other purposes, and that the cost of the roads might be paid out of the ordinary revenue. He considered the expenditure of the Province out of all proportion to its mean*. It was greater per head he believed than almost any other British colony ,for even than that of Great Britain itself. The revenue of this Province was derived from a temporary source, which might at any time be dried up, and if the Council committed themselves to the present system, they might at some future time be bound to find money to keep it up. If the Government did not effect an alteration before the Council assembled another session, he should feel bound to support a reduction among the clerks. His hon. friend who was absent (Dr. Monro) had, on a former occasion, referred to a report, which no member of Government had contradicted, that the Gover-nor-in- Chief had recommended an increase of the Civil List; he hoped the report was without foundation, but if true, it would be a pcor compliment to the Council, and he thought it would be a question with him whether he should not either resign, or refuse to grant one penny beyond that sum. After a. short silence, Mr. Hickson said he would second the resolution, with a view to discussion. The Colonial Secretary said he should not vote for the resolution, because, although it might be possible to conceive a form of Government which would not cost more than the amount of the revenue, yet if they were to have the same departments as there were in all other colonies, he did not think they could do so for less than the present expenditure . He did not think the heads of departments were paid too much, and the Council had shewn by their votes that they did not consider the juniors received too much. He thought if the British Government chose to have a uniform system throughout their colonies, that it could not do so at a less cost. He would remind the bon. member also, that, if the inhabitants of the Province were taxed at the rate of £1 a head, the Government expenditure amounted to about -£20 or £30 a head. The Colonial Treasurer said it was a popular error to suppose that the tax was entirely

paid by the white people ; he would remind the Council that a very large quantity of goods was consumed by the natives. The AtTORNBY General said he agreed with the hon. Colonial Secretary, and the hon. Colonial Treaiurer, more particularly with the Colonial Treasurer's remarks aa to the fallacy of supposing that the Maories were exempt from taxation. The Government expended a certain sum, and then raised a sum out of it as revenue. He could see no parallel between this and the mother country. The taxes were levied under the form 'of duties, because that was the system pursued in Great Britain, and the other colonies, but in point of fact the taxes were not taxes at all, and the result would be the same if the Home Government were to give a turn, and then reserve a portion of it for carrying on thejjGovernment without any taxes whatever. Mr. Hickson desired as much as any hon. member to seen an economical' system of Government, bnt he thought if any hon. member pledged himself to a resolution without making himself acquainted with the farts of the case, he might put himself in a very inconvenient position. The question was then put and lost. The Governor said the best answer he could make to the remarks of an hon. gentleman respecting the Civil List, was to lay on the table two despatches addressed by Sir G. Grey to Earl Grey, stating the system of Government he proposed to adopt for New Zealand. The despatches were read by the Colonial Secretary, and on the motion of Mr. Hickson, were ordered to be printed. The Govb&nor then said that the business of the session being closed, he had only to thank hon. gentlemen for their attendance, and for the zeal with which they had attended to the business before them, and to declare that the Council stands adjourned sine die.