LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Saturday, June 16.

Nelson Examiner and New Zealand Chronicle, Volume VIII, Issue 385, 21 July 1849, Page 83

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Saturday, June 16.

On the motion of the Attorney-General, the Bill to confer certain powers on the LieutenantGovernor, was read a third time and passed. EDUCATION. The Governor then read the following reply to the Resolutions of the Council on the subject of Education : — " I have perused with much interest and attention the very able Report, and the Resolutions founded upon it, prepared by the Sub-Committee on Education, and adopted by the Legislative Council of this Province, and I have endeavoured to give the best deliberation which the short time elapsed since these documents were laid upon the table has enabled me to afford to a subject of such magnitude a»d importance. The considerations which have principally suggested themselves to me, and to which I cannot but attach great weight, are the following : — " First. That a law is already in existence for the purpose of promoting education ; that this law extends to the whole colony, and that it wai framed and passed by a Legislature acting for the whole of New Zealand. Without, therefore, attaching any undue degree of perfection to the Ordinance to which I refer, I think we ought not lightly or hastily to reverse any law of which the efficiency or its suitability to the circumstances of the colony has not been tested or found defective ; and I •cannot} forget that the Education Ordinance, Session viii., No. 10, has only been in existence for about a year and a-half ; that there has been, as far as I am aware, only one appropriation under it at Auckland, and that it has never yet been acted under in New Munster since the separation of the colony into two provinces, because, when the time came for carrying the law into effect, the Executive Council of the Province declined to recommend any appropriation being made in accordance with its provisions. It cannot, therefore, be asserted, that the existing law is insufficient or unsuitable, because it has not been tested. Whether that law embodies the best system which could be devised for this colony, is another question, and one which involves so many and such important considerations, that I confess I am unwilling to express an opinion without giving the subject a much longer and more mature consideration than I have yet had the opportunity of bestowing upon it. " Secondly. Supposing the existing law to be found insufficient or defective, I think it should be shown that it could not be so amended as to remedy those defects without subverting altogether (so far at least as Europians are concerned) the system which it establishes. In their third resolution, the Council express an opinion that the present Education Ordinance, considered with reference to the European population, requires amendment, but their subsequent resolutions recommend the substitution of a different and totally opposite system from that embodied in the Ordinance. Where changes so great are proposed on a subject of such 'general interest, and of such vital importance to the future welfare of the whole community, and more especially so when that subject is one upon which great diversity of opinion is known to exist, I think it would hardly be right to legislate without giving the public an opportunity of expressing their opinion prior to this Council being called upon to alter the law. It appears to me that under any circumstances it would be unwise to introduce a bill to alter the existing law, so nearly at the close of the session, when it would be impossible to ascertain the state of public opinion respecting it, when the bill itself must be hurriedly prepared, and when this Council could scarcely have sufficient time maturely to consider and deliberate upon a question of such magnitude and importance, without unduly trenching upon the time and attenticn of those honourable members whose continued attendance for a protracted session could not be obtained without entailing upon them great personal sacrifices and inconveniences, and which, after the ready and zealous manner in which they have already devoted themselves to the public service, I think the Government would not be justified in subjecting them to. " Thirdly. I look upon the question of education as one of those general subjects upon which it is desirable that a uniformity of legislation should exist throughout the whole colony, and I think, therefore, that although not one of the points upon which the Provincial Council are interdicted from legislating, it is one which would be more appropriately considered and decided upon by the General Legislature of New Zealand. " For the above reasons, and others which it i« unnecessary for me to enter upon at present, I regret that I do not feel myself justified in acceding to the request of the Legislative Council to introduce a bill during the present session, embodying the principles contained in the Resolutions adopted by the Council on the 11th instant. I am quite willing to admit the excellence of some of those principles, but I have strong doubts as to how far any system of education, founded upon them, would be suitable to the present state and circumstances of New Zealand, where the population is so scattered, and the expense of carrying out the proposed system would be so much greater than the revenue of the province is likely to be able to meet for some years to come, even if no other difficulties (and I confess there Bppear to me to be many) existed ; on the other hand, the principle of compulsory education involves, to at leatt, so new and startling a departure from ordinary practice, that much consideration and many inquiries would be necessary before a Government would feel justified in proposing its adoption. " I have thus briefly pointed out some of the reasons which have had weight with me in the decision I have come to, but I must claim the indulgent consideration of the Council, on account of the very short time which has "been allowed me to devote to the consideration of so difficult and comprehensive a question, for not entering more at length into its discussion on the present occasion. 1 ' The Governor then observed, that having stated the general grounds on which he considered it his duty not to introduce a bill during the present session, he would suggest that the Council should appropriate a sum for educational, purposes to be

applied under the present Ordinance, and that in order to meet the case of the schools at Nelson, a separate sum should be voted, for this year at least, applicable to those schools. He thought that before the Council met again, there was every probability of the General Legislature meeting, | and he would take care to transmit the views of this Council to the Governor-in-Chief, as he considered that it was a subject which it would be better to leave to the General Legislative Council, t« the powers of this Council only extended to one Province, and any enactment of theirs might be over-ruled by a vote of the General Council. DOG NUISANCE BILL. On the motion of Dr. Monro, the following Report of the committee appointed to inquire into the subject of the Pog Nuisance Ordinance, was adopted by the Council : — REPORT OP COMMITTEE ON THE DOG NUISANCE ORDINANCE. In directing their attention, according to the instructions of this Council, to the question of the means best calculated to abate the nuisance arising from the excessive nnmber of dogs within this Province, your Committee took into their consideration, in the first place, the law on the subject as it at present stands. The Dog Nuisance Ordinance, Session 111., No. 19, has been found ineffectual, and, in several respects, inoperative. In the first place, its operation is confined to towns and their immediate vicinity, although the nuisance is most strongly felt and complained of in country districts, where considerable injury is sometimes done by dogs worrying sheep and cattle. In the second place, the mode of proceeding by the Ordinance is this— that dogs found at large are to be seized by the constables, who, provided the dog be claimed within a certain time, are to give it up to the owner upon the payment of a fee of five shillings, or two shillings and sixpence if the don should have a collar with the " name of the owner legibly engraved thereon." The effect of this enactment has been found to be, that constables seized harmless and inoffensive dogs, which they knew to be owned, and thus made the law a means of extorting money by way of ransom, while large ferocious, and unclaimed dogs, which it was dangerous to seize, but by which, in fact, the greatest amount of damage was done, were suffered to go at large. From these considerations principally, but also from others which your Committee deem it unnecessary now to enter upon' they recommend that the Dog Nuitance Ordinance now in force should be repealed. The next question to which your Committee directed their attention, was the expediency, or otherwise, of levying fines or taxes upon dogs owned by aboriginal natives. They have borne in mind, on the one hand, that the Maories are generally attended by considerable numbers of dogs, and that injury to sheep and cattle is occasionally the consequence as well as as nuisance in other ways, and that, therefore, it would be highly desirable that some means should be devised to dincourage theui from keeping so many. On the other hand they have felt that the natives have always been in the habit of keeping a considerable number of dogs, and that these are ra some measure necessary to them to enable them to catch their pigs, and for other purposes. They fear it might be difficult to make the natives understand the true intention of a tax upon dogi, and that its imposition might appear to them, however erroneously, as somewhat oppressive and exacting, and that it might even be almost impossible for some of the lower class of natives to pay it. Taking these different circumstances into consideration, your Committee have come to the conclusion, that it will be better, for the present to exempt native dogs from taxation, making provision, however, at the same time, that in case of damage done by any dog, whether owned by native or not, the remedy shall be much easier and simpler than the law has hitherto provided. It seems unnecessary, in this Report, to enter in detail into the reasons which have guided your Committee in agreeing to the resolutions. They may briefly state that the principle which they recommend is, that of a tax upon dogs They believe that wherever a dog is really useful, the owner Will willingly pay for him the sum required, while, at the same time, they consider that it will discourage persons from haying in their following a number of such animals for which they have no occasion. The only other point upon which they will comment, is the 7th resolution. As the law stands at present, where sheep are worried by a dog, it is necessary that the plaintiff, before recovering damages, should be able to prore that the owner of the dog knew that it had worried sheep previously. It ia evident, that even where such has been the case, it will often be extremely difficult for the plaintiff to bring satisfactory evidence, and the consequence is, that an individual not unfrequently sustains serious injury, for which the law provides no remedy. This evil the 7th resolution is intended to meet, at the same time that it guards against the hardship which might be suffered by a person being mulcted in heavy damages, in consequence of serious injury done by a dog which the owner had no reason to suspect of any vicious propensity. «- We are aware that the method we suggest is opposed to the law of England as it at present stands, but we suggest that it is precisely one of those cases in which the peculiar circumstances of the colony warrant such a departure. I>. Monro, Chairman. Some of the members expressed an intention to move amendments to some of the details in committee, if the Lieutenant-Goveruor should accede to their request to introduce a bill. EJECTION OF SQUATTERS' BILL. Mr. Seymour moved that the Bill to facilitate summary ejection from private property, be read a third time. Dr. Monro wished to make a few remarks, as he was unfortunately prevented by indisposition from being present at the second reading. He would take that opportunity of observing, that he thought it very necessary there should be some representative of the New Zealand Company in the Council, in order to give explanations, and answer questions. Had there been such a representative, he should have put one or two questions to him, which he was now compelled to put to his Excellency, with some doubt as to whether he would be able to answer them — indeed, he doubted if any individual in the Council could answer them. There was one provision in the bill which it was now proposed to read a third time, which made the New Zealand Company's land-orders sufficient evidence of title. Now, he wished to know why this extraordinary measure, as it appeared to him, should be adopted. He believed the Company had been in possession of a Crown grant for the land in this district for nearly two years, and of that in the Nelson district for six months, but he was not aware that they had yet registered these grants, and thus made good the legal title of their land-purchasers, which would prevent the necessity of the Council's adopting such an unusual course as to make the Company's land-order a legal title. The Governor said it was impossible for him to state why the New Zealand Company had not issued the titles ; but he would observe, that there was one gentleman connected with the New Zealand who held a seat in the Council, but who was absent, doubtless from sufficient reasons. He thought it very desirable there should be a representative present. He would remind the boa. gentleman, that the provision of the bill only made the title legal for the purposes of that ordinance. Dr. Monro said that although, nominally, only for the purposes of that ordinance, it was, practically, for almost all purposes, inasmuch as it gave the power of possession of the land. The Governor, observed that, if any other prima fade claim was set up, the matter would then have to be decided in the Supreme Court. Mr. Greenwood would take that opportunity of correcting a mis-statement which had appeared in print. He had not said that the New Zealand

Company held the land for the purposes of investment, but that they sold it to parties who held it merely as an investment. The bill was then read a third time, and passed. APPROPRIATION ORDINANCE. The Council then went into committee ou the Appropriation Ordinance. The Colonial Treasurer said that his Excellency having suggested the appropriation of the sum of £800, to be applied under the Education Ordinance, he would move the appropriation of that sum as a matter of form, but he objected to it himself, as he disapproved of the Ordinance. Mr. Greenwood did not see on what principle the sum of £800 was put down. The revenue was estimated at £19,000, and if one-twentieth was to be applied to educational purposes, it would be £950 ; he therefore moved that the sum be £950. The Colonial Secretary said, that for himself he never would agree to any such appropriation. He did not see the force of the objections which had been raised to the proposed Ordinance. He thought if the Council now voted any money to be applied under the existing Ordinance, which they had already condemned, they would be stultifying themselves. His objections to that Ordinance were not so much that it did harm, but that it did not do sufficient good. If they granted the money, they would virtually acknowledge the principle of the bill, for they must recollect that his Excellency intended to apply it under that bill. But if so, it must be applied with the consent of the Executive Council, as that bill provided, and that consent would not be obtained. If the hon. members of that Council changed their minds, it might be so applied, but he did not think they would do so ; he, for his own part, never would consent to it. He should wish to enter on the minutes of Council his reasons for objecting to the Education Ordinance. The Governor said if this Council voted a sum to be applied under the Education Ordinance, and the Executive Council refused to sanction it being applied under that Ordinance, they would incur a very great responsibility. Dr. Monro said he was not inclined to throw any responsibility on the Executive Council which, as a member of the Legislative Council, he ought to take upon himself. For his own part, he thought the Council should abstain from voting any sum for educational purposes this year. He must express his opinion with regard to the answer which his Excellency had given to the report and resolutions of the Committee of the Council, bearing in mind that the report was almost unanimously adopted by the Council, and that a great variety of opinions were represented in the committee ; considering also the time the subject had been before the Council and under consideration, he thought his Excellency was not justified in refusing to introduce a Bill on the ground that the question had not been properly considered. It had been under consideration for almost three weeks, and had been most fully discussed. He also differed from his Excellency in thinking the question of education was one which this Council ought not to interfere with, but that it should be referred to the General Assembly. He could not tee that there was any fitness in the General Assembly, which this Council did not possess. He could not see any reason why one system should necessarily be adopted throughout the country. On the contrary, if the two systems were in operation, it would afford an opportunity of seeing which worked the best. He protested against the Council giving up to the General Assembly any subject which, by the" Provincial Councils' Ordinance, they were entitled to legislate upon, nor could he see that there was any superior wisdom in the General Assembly which would justify them in putting it out of their jurisdiction, and handing it at once to the General Assembly. His Excellency had given as one of his reasons for not introducing a Bill, that in consequence of the lateness of the session such a Bill would be hurriedly prepared. If it was true that the Bill would be hurriedly prepared — it was also true that the resolutions on which it was to be founded had been maturely considered, and, therefore, the expression, hurriedly prepared, was more a figure of speech than any real objection. He did not know whether the hon. Colonial Secretary was in the Council in the North at the time the old Ordinance was passed, but he should imagine that that law had not received oneseventieth part the careful consideration which had been given to the resolutions on the table. With regard to the law not having been tested, that argument was more in sound than reality, as every system which could be devised had been tested in some part of the world. His Excellency had said that byrefusing to vote any sum they would be taking on themselves a great responsibility; that he would admit, but the responsibility was not so serious as at first sight might appear. This Province had been without assistance from the Government for ten years, yet, notwithstanding, a considerable amount of education had been provided, and rather than vote money to be applied under the Education Ordinance, he would take iKe responsibility of refusing to vote it at all, and He considered that in that case the responsibility would be less than it would be if they were to vote the money. He looked upon it as 10 important, that the principle contained in the report should be carried out, that he would rather leave the matter as it stands at present, than vote money for any purpose which might tend to interfere with the carrying out of that scheme, and he should, therefore, decidedly object to vote any money to be applied under the old Education Ordinance. He thought that the scheme which they had recommended, if it could have been carried out, would have been the greatest blessing any Legislature could have conferred on this colony. The Colonial Secretary said, that with respect to the responsibility which hit Excellency had mentioned, he thought it was very small ; for his own part, he was quite willing to bear any and every responsibility of rejecting a wrong system and attempting to introduce a better. If the Council, after careful consideration, recommended the introduction of a Bill, and his Excellency refused to introduce it, he thought the whole responsibility would rest with his Excellency. The report and resolutions were passed by a large majority — nine to two, and if a Bill was introduced and Dassed. the GoVernor-in-Chief could still put

his veto on it, and he therefore thought that it was reducing the powers of the Council to a very low point. There was another objection. Hit Excellency had mentioned, that the opinion of the public was not known. Now, that objection, he thought, was also not calculated to increase the dignity and reputation of the Council. It was telling them, in so many words, that they were not considered to represent the opinions of the public, for all persons who supported this system of Government would consider that his Excellency the Governor-in-Chief would place in the Council only such persona as might be presumed to represent the people, although they were not absolutely representatives. He thought such a remark going forth to the public would sanction all that had been said against that system of Government. He was sorry that all petty matters should be left to the Council, and the one great and good thing which they might have done was denied them. He hoped the public would give the Council credit for their intention. He was quite certain their views would eventually be carried out ; the cause was a good one, and would triumph; in very few years — in very few months, he would say, if a General Council were established. In the meantime, he hoped the Council would refuse to do anything which would uphold, or appear to sanction the present sectarian system. For his own part, he should be happy to bear the responsibility of anything which would tend to do away with it, so objectionable was it in his mind. Mr. Greenwood agreed with most of "the remarks of the hon. Colonial Secretary, with the exception of the remark that the members of this Council were representatives of the community. He did not pretend to represent any opinion but his own, and he did not believe that any other member considered himself in any other position. He did not wish to vote any money to be applied under the old ordinance, but he thought it would Ibe possible to adopt temporary measures which would not compromise the opinions of his Excellency or those of his Executive Council. The Governor said he should not consider himself justified in placing on the estimates any sum which was not to be applied under the existing ordinance, excepting to meet the one case of Mr. Campbell's schools. Mr. Seymour felt very great regret at his Excellency's reply ; he had felt no apprehension that he would refuse to bring in a bill, because, in his opening address, his Excellency had called the attention of the Council to that particular subject. He felt quite sure that all persons here viewed the subject of Education with as much interest as was now felt in it at home, and he could not sit down without expressing his regret that a matter of so great importance should be delayed even for a single day. Mr. Hickson seconded the motion before the Council, and stated that in his opinion that Council did not represent the opinions on this subject of the majority of people out cf doors. Mr. Moors would be sorry to separate without voting any sum for Education, and he was prepared to vote for the appropriation of a sum under the existing Ordinance, unless some means could be devised by which the 'money could be applied in another way. The question (that the sum of £800 be appropriated for Education, to be applied under the Education Ordinance) was then put and lost. The committee then considered the remaining clauses of the Appropriation Bill, after which the Council resumed and the report was brought up. Mr. Seymour brought up the report and resolutions of the Committee appointed to consider the provisions, of the proposed Turnpike Bill and gave notice that on Monday next he should move that the Council do adopt a resolution requesting that his Excellency will be pleased to introduce a bill founded on those resolutions. The Council then adjourned till Monday. Monday, June 18. The Bill to provide for the repair of streets and roads, was read a third time and passed. Mr. Seymour moved — " That his Excellency be requested to bring in a bill for making and repairing roads," in accordance with the report and resolutions of the committee which had taken the subject into consideration. The motion was agreed to. EXILES. Mr. Greenwood moved that the Council adopt the following resolution on the subject of exiles. The resolution so fully expressed his views, that he did not consider it necessary to remark further on the subject : — " That the introduction of Exiles into thii colony would inflict upon it a serious injury ; that it would be extremely prejudicial to the moral*, and repugnant to the feeling*, of the native race ; and that it would have a most unfavourable influence upon the character and future prosperity of the colony, by lowering it in public estimation, and deterring honest men from choosing it as their future home. And this Council further desires to express its opinion, that the proposed system is, in its very nature, unjust, and therefore unwise ; because the parent country ought not to relieve itself from the burden of its criminal population at the expense of its dependencies, nor place those who have broken its laws in a better position than those who have obeyed them ; and because the facility of removing its yearly increase of crime has a powerful tendency to keep it ignorant of its real nature and extent, as well as to interfere with any earnest and well-considered measures for it* reformation." Dr. Monro said that there was a good deal in the resolution with which he perfectly agreed, a good deal that he dissented from, and a good deal on which he did not consider it necessary to express any opinion. For instance, with regard to the latter part, he thought the Council would be going out of its province, and would be somewhat presumptuous in pronouncing an opinion. It waa a subject which had engaged the attention of the British Parliament, and of the wisest heads in Europe. He would confess that he did not agree with his hon. friend in condemning the system of transportation. It appeared to him, that if wisely managed, transportation might be carried on with advantage, and he believed that by means of it Great Britain had been enabled to found many new coloniei. He should therefore decline to pronounce a decided opinion condemning the system, and he thought it would be more modest of the Council to decline expressing an opinion on that subject. With regard to the first clause, while he in some measure agreed with it, yet he should wish to tee also stated what might be said in favour of the system, and it appeared to him that something might be said in favour of it. He should also wish to see credit given to Earl

Grey for good intention* in proposing the system ; he had borne in wind the dearth of labour, and by lending the bust class of convicts, or exiles as they were called, among an orderly population, where they would not be exposed to the same temptations as ut ho:uc, he hoped to accomplish the reformation of the exiles themselves, and he could not say that it was altogether an Utopian idea. The history of America showed that the early tonvicts, finding it easy in a new country to provide for their wants, and having less temptation, many of them became orderly members of the community, and he believed also that the same was the caie in New South Wales. He should therefore propose an amendment. [The amendment of the hon. gentleman, while it opposed the introduction of exiles, omitted any comment on the system of transportation, and contained en expression of gratitude to Earl Grey for having laid the subject before the colonists. It was not seconded.] Mr. Seymour said it was a question which was attended with considerable difficulty. It was one to which the British Parliament had not devoted so much attention as perhaps they ought to have done. He considered -itto be the duty of every community on the face of the globe to provide - for, as well as to punish, those who offended against its laws, and he thought that if the punishment took place in the locality in which the crime was committed, it would have a much greater influence in the prevention -of future crime than if the criminal was carried away from the scene of crime, because he believed that if a man knew that he wat to be punished elsewhere, away from his friends, he was less likely to abstain from crime. He believed that if every parish in England was to be at the expense of punishing its criminals, it would, on the ground of expense even, if there were no higher motive, induce them to provide a better system of education for the population. He did not think that transportation^had done as much good as it is stated to have done, and he believed there were a great number of instances where persons committed crime for the purpose of being transported, because the condition of convicts was at one time better than that of a vast number of the population of England. He fully concurred with the remarks of his hon. friend, who had so ably shewn the evils which would follow from the introduction of exiles into these settlements. The Colonial Secretary said he would prefer a much stronger resolution on this subject, for the one before the Council did not express tbejfeeling of the colonists thereon. He considered the latter part of it should be omitted, though not for the reason given by his hon. friend (Dr. Monro.) He thought the Council were as well fitted to express an opinion upon any subject that might be brought before them as most other bodies with similar means of information before them. But he considered it was rather travelling out of their province to volunteer their opinion as to Great Britain's mode of disposing of her convicts if it did not interfere with them. What he wanted was a more decided resolution. He thought their introduction would, in fact, amount to a breach of faith. He believed almost every settler came out under the impression that this colony would never become a penal one. He always understood that the New Zealand Company had* undertaken colonization on tbat express condition, and he was certain many, or most of their purchasers, had bought land on that understanding. It was hardly necessary to go into the objections against this measure ; public opinion was so unanimous on the subject. But a strong objection, in his opinion, wai, that the worst of the convicts might obtain an influence over the natives which they might use to the serious risk of the interruption of the harmony which at present existed between them and Government. Nor had he much frffth in the statements of the reformation of convicts; he believed in many cases where they behaved well for a time they were not reformed, but simply' removed from temptation. From an experience of escaped convicts in this colony, he wdutd assert, that the most dangerous wild beasts bad better be introduced into our forests, than convicts into the colony. But the reputation the colony had at present at home, and the loss it would undego •when made a convict colony, was a reason of still greater weight with him, and was more important - than generally considered here. Every one would ' remember his own feeling with respect to convict v colonies when in England. That aversion he believed to be the general feeling, and that nothing would > check emigration to New Zealand so effectually as the proposed step. He believed that they would lose in labour, and actual amount of immigration per head, much more by the introduction of convicts than by rejecting them. With regard to Earl Grey's having been the anthor of the proposal, he believed that the sending the despatch to New Zealand did not imply any serious intention %o inflict convicts upon vs — but that the despatch, being a circular, was sent to every colony by a general order, and New Zealand not excepted lest it should appear invidious. Tbe Colonial Treasurer thought the Council could not do wrong in expressing a decided opinion on the subject. It was well known bow great bad been the difficulty in disposing of convicts since transportation to New South Wales had ceased ; the present circular was au indication of the difficulty which the Government experienced. He believed that there was only one colony favourable to receiving convicts, and that was Swan River, and if the Council should qualify the resolution, he thought they would run some risk of their intentions being misunderstood. He would rather see a stronger resolution, so that there should be no possibility of their views being mistaken. Mr. Moork said that, as the Council had not shrunk from offering a decided opinion on a matter of quite as much importance, viz., education, he could not see the force of the observation of his hon. friend (Dr. Monro), that they should not offer an opiuion on the policy of the transportation system. He thought it was a subject which called for a very decided opinion. In his opinion, if eny colony was unfit for & penal settlement, New Zealand was, on account of its physical nature, and especially on account of the native rare ; snd in a community wliich had the character of being a strictly moral community, the influence wLicb it would have on intending emigrants was, in his opinion, a decided objection of itstlf. He

did not think that any gratitude was due to Earl Grey for consulting the wishes of the colonists; he thought it was no more due than it would be to any person who, having it in his power to use an adverse influence, should refrain front doing so until he had asked the opinion of the other party. He did not think the resolution at all too strong, or expressed a word more than he would support, consistently with bis desire ;to send a courteous reply. Mr. Hioksok said he bad already expressed his opinion against transportation, in reply to the circular of the Colonial Secretary. He would therefore only state, that his opinion was now still stronger, and he thought it was an additional argument against it that in the neighbouring colonies of Van Diemen'a Land and New South Wales the opinion was almost universal against the re-introduction of convicts. He should, feel great pleasure in voting for the resolution. The Colonial Secretary, in arcordance with the opinions be had previously expressed, then moved the fallowing amendment : — That this Council viewi, with the greatest alarm and disapprobation, the proposition of the introduction of convictsi of any claa« or kind, into New Zealand. They believe that such introduction would be productive ef tbe most serious evils to thii colony. The contamination of the natives, which would probably arise from communication with convicts, would probably be detrimental to tbeir character, and greatly retard tbeir pragma in civilization. The influence which the more depraved of the convicts could easily obtain over the more ignorant of them, might be rendered highly detrimental to the pacific relations in the process of establishment and confirmation between them and the Government. These dangers would rather be heightened by the freedom from restraint which it is contemplated that exiles would enjoy as compared with convicts under the old system. The benefit of the additional labour introduced, would be more than counterbalanced by the obstruction to free emigration which would be raised thereby ; in point of numerical strength alone it is a question whether, in this point of view, the colony would not lose in the amount of labour obtainable from home. The maintenance of the high moral character and reputation which the population of New Zealand has hitherto enjoyed, is, in the opinion of this Council, far more valuable to the colony than any momentary or immediate physical benefits to be conferred by convict labour. While this Council are anxious to give to Karl Grey full credit for a sincere desire solely to benefit the colony by the proposed measure, yet it cannot be denied that, to most of the settlers of New Zealand, it would appear to be a breach of written engagements, upon the faith of which they emigrated, and the possibility of an infraction of which would have deterred many of them from ever leaving England. The Attorney-General seconded the amend* ment. Mr. Greenwood thought it was of so much importance that the Council should be unanimous, that he was willing to withdraw his motion. The Colonial Secretary's amendment was then put and carried unanimously. Mr. Skymour inquired whether it was his Excellency's intention to take any steps towards carrying out the Education Bill, or other measures by which the progress of education might not be impeded. The Governor replied, that he had on the lost occasion stated his views, but the Council were' of opinion that all further proceedings should be postponed till their rcommendations could be carried into effect, he did not see therefore how the Government could take further steps in the matter. He would take an early opportunity of forwarding their Report to tbe Governor-in-Chief, in order that he might lay it before the General Legislature at their next meeting. There were several questions requiring tbe attention of the General Legislature, and he had reason to hope that it would be assembled before that Council again met. On the motion of the Colonial Srcretary, a sub-committee was appointed to consider the case of the Wanganui settlers claiming compensation. ' The Council then adjourned till Thursday.