LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Nelson Examiner and New Zealand Chronicle, Volume III, Issue 125, 27 July 1844, Page 81

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Saturday, Jone 1. Present— The Governor and all the members. The minutes of the last sitting having been read and confirmed,

Dr. Martin presented a petition from the inhabitants of Auckland, praying that the item of £200 for ecclesiastical purposes be struck out of the estimate. — Petition read.

The Governor laid on the table a bill for appointing certain persons trustees for managing property to be set apart for the benefit of the aborigines, which was ordered to be read a first time on Saturday next. He also laid on the table, for the information of the Council, a copy of the instructions of the Superintendent at Port Nicholson. With reference to the motion of the honourable member (Mr. Clifford) for copies of any correspondence or instructions respecting the ecclesiastical establishment in New Zealand, his Excellency said he Was prohibited by the 28th article of Colonial Regulations from allowing copies to be taken of his instructions ; that, however, did not prevent him from giving the required information. [He then produced the despatch, and ordered it to be read, by which it appeared that New Zealand was erected into a bishoprick and Dr. Selwyn made bishop thereof; that the Imperial Parliament provided £600 per annum towards his salary, which salary was to be increased by a colonial vote; and also that the expense* of his visitations should be defrayed by the colony.'] APPROPRIATION OF REVENUE BILL. Mr. Clifford gave notice that he should move, as an amendment to the preamble, that after the word " colonial " there should be added " and. such sums of money as may be received from the Home Government."

The Governor then proposed that £200 should be allowed for the minister of Auckland.

Dr. Martin moved, as an amendment, that nothing be provided for ecclesiastical establishments. He objected on principle to any attempt at setting up a State Church in this colony. The evils arising from the connexion between church and state in the mother country were so great and so manifest, that he hoped the Council would at once oppose that first step towards laying the foundation of a State Church. He was himself brought up in one of the established churches at home ; but he would most decidedly oppose the ' motion at present under consideration, because it would have the>.effect of creating religious controversies and quarrels, which would be most injurious in any country, but more especially in a new colony like this. Every sect should be allowed to support their own clergymen, and no man should be compelled to pay towards the maintenance of a religion which he did not in his conscience believe to be true. He did not think the Council had the power to grant the sum required. He was aware that a Church Act had been passed in this colony, but it was justly and properly disallowed by the Home Government. The present grant was certainly a small one ; but he could see no necessity for such a grant, and he disapproved of the attempt to establish the supremacy of any one church over others in this colony. The Colonial Secretary was sorry that such a bone of contention as religious difference should* have arisen. It was only a small amount, and was asked for under peculiar circumstances. Some part of the people would be left without religious instruction unless assisted by Government. The amount was sanctioned and defrayed by the Home Government.

The Attorney-General observed that the honourable member (Dr. Martin) had said that " the Church Extension Act had been very properly and justly disallowed ;" but he thought he could convince the honourable member of the contrary. He here read extracts from the instructions authorizing the act in question to be passed, and said that he had framed the act in obedience to those instructions, one clause in which provided that one- part of the revenue should be appropriated to ecclesiastical purposes. The act had been disallowed because the colonial revenue was deemed uncertain, and wotu u probably be inadequate to the wants of the colony. Dr. Martin explained that what he meant by " being very properly and justly disallowed" had no reference to the framing of the bill, but simply to the principle of establishing state churches in this colony. In that respect, he must still say that it was properly and justly disallowed. The Govbbnob. said he wished the revenue would enable him to assist all the religious establishments in the colony, and not leave them to the casual support of an indifferent public. The voluntary principle had been tried and had failed, except in a few instances. The sum asked fpr was in support of the minister at Auckland. He expressed his willingness to assist all religious establishments, and as a beginning should propose to vote a sum in support of the Lord Bishop agreeably with the instructions they had just heard read. His Excellency then proceeded to defend his lordship's absence from Auckland. He also contended that his salary, being only £600, was inadequate ; that, upon so small a salary, he could not, even in a colony, live as a bishop of the Church of England was expected to live ; he should therefore propose the sum of -£2OO as an addition to his wl&ry. They' should soon be able to assist all. Mr. Cf,nrvou> lxad no wish to enter into a pblemical discussion. He thought the Council should look at this subject in a political view, and t*e how it bore upon the future prosperity of th« colony. He wanted to encourage immigration with c«£itf£ ;^

People had many motives for emigrating; but some of the most thriving offshoots from the mother country had been formed by people who left their homes in order, to enjoy liberty of conscience, and avoid the necessity of paying towards the support of a religion they disapproved of. He saw great danger in the proposed vote. Many people would look upon it as an attempt to form an established church. If the British Parliament chose to grant a sum of money in support of a particular form of worship, of course they could not control it. But, as far as the funds of the colony were concerned,. he strongly objected to

any grant until they were in a condition to pay each minister according to the number of his congregation. The honourable member then read a document, showing that the weekly receipts of the resident Catholic priest in Auckland did not average more than fifteen shillings, owing to the poverty of his congregation, consisting of about 400 people ; and that, besides attending to them, he gave gratuitous instruction to a great number of children whose parents were too poor to pay; and he really thought he had as good a claim on the colonial funds as a minister whose congregation were well able to subscribe to his support. Dr. Martin said the question was purely a religious one, and could not be regarded in any other light. They were called upon to consent to the laying of the foundation-stones of a church establishment. On looking at the copy of the estimates supplied to him, he found it there stated that the present sum of JG2OO was "towards defraying the salaries of clergymen at Auckland, Wellington, Nelson, and the Bay of Islands." The demand this year for that purpose was certainly not large ; but he cared nothing about that — the foundation of a State Church was being laid, and if this colony consented to the present sum they would doubtless be called upon to increase it next year. He deprecated every attempt at setting up a church establishment in this colony. People might be well left to support that religion in which they believed, and it was not fair to require them to support any other. Truth required no assistance to recommend itself to people, and it was contrary to the spirit of true religion that it should be placed in the position of requiring or demanding aid from, it might be, heretics and infidels. He detested the system pursued in New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land of indiscriminately assisting all sects. He would even prefer the plan at home of supporting one church, to that infamous system which declared that all religions were alike. The Episcopalian, the Roman Catholic, the Presbyterian, the Wesleyan, the Unitarian, and the Mahommedan, were placed on the same footing, and regarded as being equally good. It was not right to tax a man to pay towards the maintenance of a religion which he believed to be false. He could see no reason whatever for voting a sum of money to the clergymen of the Church of England in preference to the Wesleyans, the Catholics, and the Presbyterians, or any other sect. The clergymen of each denomination were very likely equally zealous and equally useful. Mr. Clifford had mentioned that the weekly income of the Catholic priest was not more than fifteen shillings. He and the other clergymen who went about doing good, comforting the poor, and relieving the distressed, were as much entitled to assistance as the lordly prelate with his cathedral towering over his head. He should be sorry to see any system of bigotry established in this country. Religious prejudices had been already carried too far in Auckland, even to the grave itself. Dr. Martin then stated the cose of a poor man, a Presbyterian, who, at a time when the sect to which he belonged were without a place for burying their dead, was refused burial for his child, because he did not think it proper to pay certain fees and to conform to the service of the Church of England. He should be extremely sorry to see the present motion carried ; and he hoped honourable members would consider before they committed themselves by voting the public money to one sect in preference to all others. Mr. Brown concurred with what had fallen from Dr. Martin. The proposed vote was not for the support of religious establishments generally, but for the support of the Episcopalians alone. Had it been the general question of church establish- j ments, there might have been some ground for discussion ; but there could be none where one sect seeks to monopolize all the benefit. The proposition itself was absurd, because it supposed that people differing from each other in religious belief would voluntarily give up their opinions and their conscience, and vote away their money in support of that which they deemed to be error and untruth. Even the members of that Council differed widely from each other in their religious opinions. How, then, could it be expected that they should agree in voting away their common funds for the support of a system of religion to which they have the strongest objections ? They had up funds to support all, and therefore he would support none. He strongly deprecated the attempt to set up a State Church here. Nothing could more deeply injure the colony. It had proved a curse in our mother country, and why should we introduce it here ? It had been stated that Lord Stanley had recommended a vote out of the colonial revenue for the travelling expenses of the Bishop ; but that was no reason at all, as it ought to be optional with the colonists to refuse it or not. And what better right had the lordly Bishop to have his travelling expenses paid than the Wesleyans and the Catholics, who travelled as much as his lordship — were no doubt equally zealous in their labours and were perhaps equally beneficial to the natives ? He should therefore oppose the vote. The Governor took an entirely different view of the question to that entertained by Dr. Martin. Twenty years ago Europeans could not live in New Zealand. ' About that period the Church of England missionaries commenced their labours, spending upwards of £20,000 annually, and prepared the natives for the reception of Europeans, assisted latterly by the Wesleyan mission. Other sects werefew and scattered ; and he did think it unfair to refuse the grant, seeing that they were indebted to the Church of England mission for the colony beipg formed. He read an extract from h's instructions to show that £590 was allowed by the Home Government for the purpose (including schools); and contended that consequently the Council, had no right to interfere. It was his duty to have proposed the. sum allowed by the Horns Government. The application of the gum was misstated — it was for the minister at Auckland Only. He did not impute ignorance to Dr. Mar-

tin ; the copy of the estimates supplied to him was incorrect. Dr. Martin said the Bill for the Appropriation of theJtevenue had no reference to sums of money to be paid by the Home Government — it was entirely a bill for appropriating money raised in the. colony. If his Excellency would consent to the alteration [in the preamble] proposed by Mr. Clifford, perhaps members might feel less difficulty I in consenting to some of the items of expenditure. Mr. Clifford said, with reference to the Church missions, that much credit was due to them for their zealous endeavours to christianize the natives, and for the money they had spent in attaining this object : but he did not see that that was any reason why parties who had come out since and differed from their views should be taxed to support them, more especially as through their influence with the natives large grants of land had been obtained, whicti, being, he presumed, for the purposes of the mission, would, in a short time, be ample for its support. The honourable member then' took a view of the Catholic mission, to show that they had been as zealously employed for the last six or seven years — that in some districts their native followers preponderated, and in others were as numerous as those of the Church missionaries. He therefore thought they had as much claim to the support of Government, more particularly as they spent a considerable sum annually on the mission, and had not become land claimants for more than a few hundred acres altogether — barely sufficient for mission houses and gardens. The Governor said the honourable member (Mr. Clifford) had shown reasons why the Catholics should be assisted; but he had shown none why the assistance should be discontinued to the Church, which had always been given. It would be turning our backs upon the Church and saying, notwithstanding the good you have done, we want nothing more to do with you. The Catholic priests were not land claimants, being aliens. A bill would be required to naturalize them. Mr. Clifford : They had been in the country whea being aliens was no hindrance to obtaining land from the natives ; but had not thought it advisable to do so. After some remarks from the Governor, Mr. Clifford, and Dr. Martin, the amendment was negatived. Dr. Martin and Mr. Brown voting for, — the Executive against — Mr. Clifford declined voting. Original sum allowed. *. The Governor said he should now propose that the sum of £200 be voted 03 an increase to the salary of the Lord Bishop. It was his own individual proposition. He had not consulted the Executive; and it could not therefore be considered a Government proposition. He wanted the Executive to understand that. Dr. Martin said that he considered his Excellency had taken the Council by surprise in making such a proposal as the present. He Idoked upon the question before the Council as being a most important one. It was not fair to press a measure of such importance to a vote on so short a notice. If his Excellency's motion were carried, he had no hesitation in saying it would produce a very bad effect throughout the colony ; and tend much to add to the discontent which already existed, fee regretted to say, to a very great extent. People were already preparing to leave because of the threatened taxes : and if New Zealand were to be '. a Church of England colony, the sooner they left ; the better. Governor : The honourable member (Dr. Mar- ' tin) took one view of the subject, and he took 1 another. It would be strange if the proposal should be withdrawn because not approved of by < the honourable member ; that would be intolerance indeed. He (the Governor) might not be right, 1 but he had as good a chance of being so as the ' honourable member. He (the Governor) had a right to make a proposal as well as the honourable 1 member; and was not to be diverted by the < honourable member's opposition. He (the Governor) took a different view of the subject alto- > gether. In his opinion, no community could prosper without supporting ministers and schools of s every denomination. i Dr. Martin begged to assure his Excellency I that it was very far from his intention to dispute his I right to propose any motion to the Council. He i did not for one instant question that right. He might have felt warmly on the subject before the t Council, because he believed that it was calcu- v lated to affect very seriously the interests of this 1 colony, and on that account he thought he was justified in asking his Excellency to defer the fur- b ther consideration of the motion to a future day, d in order to ascertain the feeling outside the Council on a measure so important. s The Governor said be should press the question n to a division. ri Dr. Martin stated that, as the Rules of Coun- li cil now stood, it was quite competent for his Excellency to press any measure to a division : and tl he must say that he now regretted that the Rules b had been altered in that manner. By the old Rules tl of Council, no important amendment could be de- a cided at the time that notice was given of the same, p He felt he was' in that respect at a disadvantage. He had every" reason to suppose that the official w members would vote with his Excellency ; but he C hoped that, by postponing "the matter, they might ti have time to consider, and would reflect before so tl doing. h Governor: The honourable member was quite n mistaken as to how the official members would p vote. He (the Governor) had his views, but would not explain them. The votes would show who was A right. ft After some remarks. Dr. Martin proposed that G the further discussion be deferred till next meeting, gi The Colonial|Skcrktart said he should vote a with the honourable member, Dr. Martin, although for different reasons ; and went on to state that, bi though anxious to favour his own particular faith, Ifl he felt bound to assist all others. fii

After a desultory conversation regarding a point of order,

Mr. Clifford said that he took the same view of the subject as the honourable member, Dr. Martin ; but would rather have the vote decided at once, to prevent excitement. He did not think the official members would vote for the proposal ; but, on the contrary, thought it would be carried against his Excellency.

Mr. Brown thought that the proposed addition of Jb'2oo to the salary of the Lord Bishop was not only liable to all the objections in point of principle already urged, but it was perfectly absurd and un-

reasonable, when it was considered that £600 had been already provided by the British Government for the support of the Bishop ; while ,we had just heard from an honourable member that the means of the Catholic priest here did not reach £50 per annum. The invidious distinction here was too apparent to be listened to for a moment; and the motion ought at once to be rejected by the Council. The Attorney- General, in the course of some remarks, said the colony was a Church of England colony ; and regarding the question as of the supporting all or none, he should vote for the proposition. The honourable member said he should, on all occasions, vote with the Governor : uo government could be carried on unless it was so. Dr. Martin was extremely sorry to hear the learned Attorney- General state that this was a Church of England colony. This was certainly information to him ; but no doubt the honourable gentleman had legal grounds upon which to found his opinion. The Governor said he did not think the At-torney-General meant that this was a Church of England colony. Dr. Martin would begladto hear the AttorneyGeneral explain the matter. He was disposed to attach much weight to his opinion ; and he supposed it must have been well founded. He did not himself belong to the Church of England, and he had no desire to,do so. He regarded the established churches at home, and their connexion with the state, as a curse to the country. They were an impediment to the progress of knowledge and to the growth of intellect. And he therefore sincerely trusted that New Zealand would never become a Church of England, or a Church of any thing colony. The Attorney- General explained that, although he had said so on the spur of the moment, he did not mean that it was solely a Church of England colony. His opinion, however, was only to be regarded the same as that of any other person. Dr. Martin accepted of the explanation of the Attorney- General ; and said that New Zealand might, with as much proprieta; be called a Roman Catholic, or a French, as a Cmurch of England colony. He believed that Bishop Pompalier was supported by the Government of France ; and that) he could command the services of any French ma* of-war on this coast, if he at any time required them. But that circumstance did not surely constitute New Zealand a French or a Roman Catholic colony. He should be extremely sorry to see New Zealand a church of any thing colony. He trusted it never would become so. The inhabit-

ants of this country were composed of men of all nations and all religions. In no country was- a' stranger or a foreigner better received than in New Zea'and : and he hoped it would ever continue to be so ; and that neither sectarianism nor bigotry would be permitted to destroy the kindly feeling which existed among all classes of our small community.

After some remarks from Mr. Clifford, Dr. Martin's amendment for an adjournment was negatived.

The Governor then put his proposal that £200 be voted as an increase of salary for the Bishop. Ayes — Governor and Attorney- General — 2,,^ Noes — Colonial Secretary, Colonial Treasurer, Messrs. Brown, Clifford, and Martin— s. Proposal negatived.

After some discussion, £300 for the medical department in all the settlements, and £375 for the harbour master's department, were allowed.

The sum of £1,508 was proposed to cover the expenses of the colonial brig. N " Dr. Martin proposed, as an amendment, that the sum of £500 be substituted. A smaller vessel would answer the purpose. >' . A discussion ensued, but, upon the amendment being put, it was negatived and the original motion carried.

The sum of £2,710 was proposed for public works and contingencies. Dr. Martin, as an amendment, moved that the sum of £1,875 be substituted. The honourable member said this was one of the few items'which had his approval.- He wished that £20,000 could, be voted for that purpose : but there were no funds' in the colony.

The Governor, in a few words, explained the multifarious duties of the superintendent of public works, who acted also as harbour master ; and said he should oppose the amendment. Mr. Clifford agreed with the honourable member (Dr. Martin), but wished to see the amount divided between Auckland and Wellington.

The Governor said he would see that they should have a fair share ; and reminded the honourable member (Mr. Clifford) of the money already expended on the public buildings at Wel-

Mr. Brown supported the amendment, and thought the sum proposed by the honourable member (Dr. Martin) was a fair proportion of the funds the colony could pay. He would like to see the amount larger; but, having waited so long for improvement, they must wait a little longer.

The Attorney- General, with reference to what had fallen from the honourable member (Mr. Clifford), said that the people of Auckland were entitled to a greater share of the expenditure than the settlers in the southern districts — the former having paid a very large amount to the Government for land, which the latter had not, their purchases being from the Company. Mr. Brown showed that the people in and about Auckland had paid £40,000 to the Government for land, and had nothing to show for it but the Government house, upon which there had been a great waste of money, and a miserable building for a gaol. Dr. Martin agreed- with the honourable mem-ber-(Mr. Brown), and thought that the settlers at Wellington and Nelson ought to subscribe to the finishing of the Supreme Court House in Auckland. Its present unfinished state was a disgrace to the colony. After a few remarks from Mr. Clifford,

The Governor said he would see if the portico could not be finished shortly. — Amendment put and negatived. Original sum allowed. The sum of £250 was proposed for the postage of public letters. Dr. Martin, as an amendment,* proposed the sum of JE2OO be substituted. In Governor Hobson's time, correspondence was very voluminous ; but he did not consider there was any necessity for such a sum now.

Mr. Brown asked if the Post Office made a charge on official letters and despatches. The Governor : Yes. .The present office was under the management of the Postmaster-General in England, which, he considered prejudicial to the colony. He did not defend the item ; but there was no other way of forwarding the despatches, which were paid for by weight ; it being illegal to send them by any other means. He wished the Council to express their opinions freely on the subject, as he thought the system might be changed. The Attorney-General agreed with his Excellency that the Council ought to express their opinion strongly against the present system, more especially as the lunds arising from the office, instead of being spent in the colony, were sent home.

After some further discussion, Dr. Martin withdrew his amendment ; and it was agreed that an examination of witnesses should take place before the termination of the Council's sittings, and a report founded thereon should be sent home. Original sum allowed. Council adjourned till Tuesday next.