LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Nelson Examiner and New Zealand Chronicle, Volume III, Issue 122, 6 July 1844, Page 10

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Saturday, Mat 25. Present — The Governor and all the members. Minutei of the last sitting read and confirmed. The resolutions 1 11* 1 laid on the table by Dr. Martin on Saturday last, for the approval of the Governor, were read, and, on the motion of the Governor, ordered to be taken into consideration on Saturday the Bth of June. The Governor, in reference to a question which had arisen as to whether the non-publication of the commission of the peace in the Government Gazette would affect the legality of the Council'! proceedings, read the third clause of the royal in. striictions, showing that the non -official members should be justices of the peace whose names stood first in order, and whose commissions were revocable or renewable at the Governor's pleasure. He said that, in appointing the new members of Council, he had followed the instructions. There was no authority requiring that the commission of the peace should be published. He laid on the table the commission of the peace as made up by him about two months since, and said, as the publication was asked for, it should appear in the next Gazette. He would also notice another question which had been asked, why the bills intended to be brought before the Council had not been published? All the bills now under the notice of the Council were on the table. He believed there were five more to be introduced, which, if the Council thought fit, he would have laid on the table with the others. N Mr. Brown suggested that a few copies of each should be printed, that the public might purchase them. The Governor said a few copies were already printed, and could be had by any person applying for them. No charge would be made. APPROPRIATION OF REVENUE BILL. The GovcßNoa laid on the table returns of the exports and imports of the colony, with the amount of revenue, &c, for 1843 and 1844, as asked for at the last sitting ;' and moved the second reading of the Appropriation of Revenue Bill. Dr. Martin was desirous of offering a few general remarks upon the bill at present under consideration, before the individual items of expenditure were discussed. He had on a former occasion given notice of amendments to the effect of reducing the expenditure of the colony to £20,000. - He fixed that sum because he was certain it was as much, if not more than the colony could afford. He fully appreciated the difficulty of his Excellency's position. Certain establishments had been formed in the colony, and the salaries of many officers had been approved of at home, the reduction of which he knew the Governor was required not to consent to, and which, perhaps, it might be deemed invidious on his part, and that of any of the non -official members, to interfere with. He had no desire to do so, and he had not the means of exactly saying how much should be devoted to any particular department, because no information / had been supplied on the subject ; but he had a right to say how much he thought the colony could afford, and he would be very much to blame, be the necessities of Government what they would, to consent to the appropriation of any sum which he did honestly and conscientiously believe could not be raised in the colony. Under these circumstances, he would rather not take up the estimates item by item. If the Governor expected, as most^ likely he did, assistance from the Home Govern- " ment, he could make up the full amount required when that assistance arrived, and the better plan for the Council would be at once to say how much the colony could afford to pay, and leave it to the Governor to apportion that sum among the various^ establishments and various officers as best he could ; more especially as the non-official members had not been supplied with information sufficient to enable them satisfactorily to decide on that subject. He would not conceal that, in consenting to a sum of £20,000, he felt he was taxing the colony much higher than its circumstances warranted. Neither would he conceal that it was Jtjs honest conviction that the salaries of several of« ficers in this colony were much higher than the^ condition of the colony justified. He maintained that £1,000 a year was by far too much for any officer of this Government, with the exception of his Excellency. He would like to know what private individual in this colony could realize even £500 a year from his capital and exert ons; and why should Government officers receive their thousands for mere services, when private indivi- , duals, with their capital and industry together, could not make half so much ? The salaries of Government officers ought to be in proportion to the profits and means of private settlers. He for one had no wish to see an official aristocracy springing up at the expense and on the ruins of the private settlers, and he would not give his consent to such an unnatural state of things. He wished to keep his remarks as general as possible, but he could not help saying that he thought the salary of the Judge was too high. It bore no proportion to the incomes of professional men in the colony. None of them could by their practice make half the sum. A thousand a year might not be too much for a person of Judge Martin's abilities, but it was far too much for the colony to* give. Judges were well paid in England and the neighbouring colonies ; but while a judge had his four or five thousand a year at home, leading barristers made their ten and fifteen thousand. Even in New South Wales the incomes of some members of the bar were much larger than the salaries of the judges — and why should they be different in this colony? Could we better afford to give large salaries ? With respect to the salaries of Commissioners of Land Claims, they were also too high. One of these gentlemen received a thousand a year. He knew he had for two years been sent from England with that salary ; but the period had expired, and he was still continued at the same - high rate ; and so long as the commissioners were so well paid, it was a question when the land claims would be settled. More had been done by his Excellency and one commissioner since his arrival in the colony than by all the rest during the three last years. The Protectorate of Aborigines and the Surrey Department were ordered to be paid oat of special funds. These funds were not in existence, and they could not therefore look to the ordinary revenue— they had no claim upon it He • Want of nom«l4i|«iu to poatpoM tbe publication lif UwatoMSWMk.

would not at present enter into any further details, but he thought it would be highly improper for the Council to consent to so large a sum as £36,000. It might be an advantage to have a large Government expenditure, and he had no particular desire to see establishments reduced, provided the Home Government paid for them ; but he could not consent to tax the settlers of New Zealand at a higher rate than he had proposed. Thirty shillings a head was more than they could afford. Looking at the other free colonies of England, the Cape of Good Hope approached the nearest to them, and even there settlers only paid 20s. per head. In Upper Canada the rate was ss. 10d., in Lower Canada it was only 4s. lid. The yearly increasing capital of Upper Canada was 13 millions, of Lower Canada 17 millions. In New Zealand it was less than nothing. Prince Edward's Island, with a population of upwards of 30,000, was governed for about £13,000 per annum ; but the salaries of officers were reasonable in that colony. The Surveyor-General had £200 a year, and he was very 'certain his labours were more than those of the Surveyor-General of New Zealand. The Attorney-General had also £200 a year. The Colonial Secretary and Registrar had £150. The Judge was certainly paid £700 a year, which he deemed quite enough. Viewing, therefore, the actual condition of this colony, and comparing it with other British colonies, he was satisfied that £20,000 a year was more than enough for its good government Mr. Brown said the question before them was a very simple one ; it was a question of pounds, shillings, and pence, and could easily be understood by every one. At the end of another year, the Government had now come before the people with a statement of the past year's transactions, showing upon these an unfavourable balance of upwards of £14,000, and asking a vote of £36,000 for carrying on the Government for the current year. Before forming an opinion on this, there was, however, an important question to be decided. Besides the question of expenditure as between the Government and the people, there is also an important question which the people have to settle as amongst themselves, viz., whether their own affairs are in such a condition as to enable them to pay such a sum of money as now asked for. If the people are able to pay that sum of money, they may agree to do so, after a strict inquiry into the propriety of the expenditure. If, on the other hand, however, the people are satisfied that they are notable to pay the required sum, they, as a matter of course, ought not to promise to do so. From the returns of exports and imports for 1843 and '44, just laid on the table, the value of articles imported for 1843 amounted to £159,214, and the exports nil. The Imports for this year already amount to . . tS\7S,O7S Which, after deducting value of Export*, -vix.. . 85,53(5 Learet a balance against the colony of 1 1 0,437 Which, added to that of 1843, Tix 159,214 Make* no lecamaum than j£27B,flsi which must be regarded either as still owing to our creditors, or as so much sunk capital ; and it is much to be feared that the colony is in a state of insolvency, and not able to pay any sum for taxation. Certain it is, that there have as yet been no returns for any capital expended, and whatever sum we agree to pay in taxes, must be paid out of our capital ; for that reason the expenditure of our Government ought to be reduced to the smallest possible sum. He for one would not agree to pay a larger sum than £20,000, and he would wish to see this part of the question decided before proceed- - ing to deal with the details of the expenditure. The Colonial Secretary thought, with the probability of assistance from the Home Government, it would be injudicious to reduce the establishments to so low an ebb as what the colony could pay. He compared this colony with South Australia and North America, and thought, notwithstanding the faults found with the Government, that the Government had been carried on much cheaper here than in these colonies. We had the aborigines to govern at a considerable cost, without deriving any revenue from them. He thought it time enough to reduce the establishments if assistance did not arrive from the Home Government ; at present such a course would weaken the Government Dr. Martin thought the Colonial Secretary had fallen upon a most unhappy comparison in* support of the doctrine that a large Government expenditure was beneficial to a colony. The expenditure of South Australia was at one time upwards of £160,000 a year, but what was the state of the colony during that period? The inhabitants were all congregated together in one large town; they had certainly their theatres and their public houses, and gambling speculations of every kind were going on, but the colony was at a stand still. On the arrival of Captain Grey, he ordered the expenditure to be reduced to something above £20,000 a year; for so doing he was much abused, and for a time obtained a bad name, but the result has been that all ruinous and gambling speculations have ceased in South Australia, the work of colonization began to be commenced in earnest South Australia is now an exporting country, and one of the most flourishing colonies in the southern hemisphere. He would be rejoiced to hear die Colonial Secretary propose the adoption of a similar course as regarded this colony. The expenditure of a Government appeared to him to be something like that of a merchant, or a man carrying on business. If the Colonial Secretary could prove to him that the jaore a merchant spent upon his establishment, his counting-house, and clerks, the larger his profits and the better for his business ; then would he vote for a large Government expenditure. But, in his opinion, the cheaper the Government of a colony, the better for the people. If this colony could be governed for £10,000 or even a £1,000 a year, so much the better for every man in it The Colonial Secretary remarked that the expenditure of Scuth Australia for the last year was £29,000.

Dr. Martin assented, and remarked that the Government expenditure of South Australia ought necessarily to be greater than that of this country, the one being a pastoral and the other an agricultural country. South Australia had a very scattered population, and required a large police establishment for the purpose of protecting the settlers in the interior, who, on account of their occupation—tending sheep and cattle — must necessarily be faY asunder and far removed from the capital. The Colonial Secutary said the expense of their Border Police did not equal the expenditure of our Customs.

Mr. Cur* ord called the attention of members to the consideration of the Estimates, which appeared to have been forgotten in the course of the debate. His Excellency had said that he would not undertake to break through the agreements and contracts which the Home Government had made and would of course feel responsible for — and in this he (Mr. Clifford) quite coincided with his Excellency. The next pressing question at the present moment was, whether we should sanction the novelty of the imposition of direct taxes upon a bankrupt colony like this. He thought such a scheme extremely unwise. Before they could adopt it, it would be necessary for them seriously to consider the effect of it The colony had had sufficient drawbacks lately, but to adopt this scheme would be to totally prostrate the colony — it would be known by the soubriquet of " the taxed colony." It may be said that this system of taxation is only proposed as a temporary measure. But he would beg honourable members to consider that taxes had always been found to be more easily laid on than taken off. And even if they were to be imposed, on the understanding that they were to be taken off again on the removal of the present financial difficulties of the Government, and were so taken off accordingly, the name and the bad effects of the system would still remain. On looking over the Estimates, he perceived the receipts of the colony estimated at £22,000, and his Excellency had stated that he expected a further sum of £10,000 from the Home Government, in which case only £4,000 would be required to make up the sum called for by the Government Now he did think that, instead of laying on fresh taxes, at a time too when, from various circumstances, the colonists were scarcely able to meet the present duties and impositions, it would be more wise and more just on the part of the Government to act as an honourable individual would under similar circumstances, aod retrench rather than grasp at any means, no master how ruinous, for the purpose of carrying on a luxurious establishment He thought, too, that the principle on which the proposed taxes were to be levied was both impolitic and unjust. A land tax in a new country appeared to him to be preposterous. They might at least wait until the land had yielded a profit before they commenced taxing it The house tax was also an objectionable tax — it was one of those burdens which immigrants rejoiced in believing that they had thrown from their shoulders for ever whea they quitted England; and even the mode of levying it, as proposed, appeared to him to make it a tax upon decency and propriety. He objected to the proposed taxes, looking at them in every point of view; and he must again express his opinion that reduction in the expenditure would be the best and readiest mode of meeting the difficulty. He agreed with the honourable members, Dr. Martin and Mr. Brown, that it would be better to vote such a sum as the colony could afford to pay, and let the Governor distribute it (with reference to the assistance which he had to expect from the Home Government), rather than for the Council to go into the items.

The Governor, in replying to the arguments advanced, said the honourable members appeared to think that it was a voluntary offer of a few persons to establish this colony. They looked at present difficulties, but never looked behind. They did not seem to have one spark of gratitude to the Home Government for the sums spent ; but appeared to think the colony had paid all. The expenditure had been large ; and the advancement of the colony was entirely owing to the Government. He contended that the Government expenditure had been the cause of emigration from the neighbouring colonies. The Home Government has sanctioned a large expenditure under the impression that the colony could support itself; and the sum voted last year for this colony was £7,500 only, to pay certain salaries. When the Home! Government ascertain the position of the colony,! it will either advance the necessary assistance, orj leave the colony a prey to anarchy, confusion, and.' bloodshed. He was satisfied the British Government would support the colony in preference to abandoning it. Some might think the colony would do better by having no Government, and others that £1,000 a year would be sufficient for the support of a Government. He pointed out the distance the various settlements were from each other ; the intercourse required to be carried on ; that efficient persons must be appointed to carry on such duties ; and that they must be paid. It was not simply a Government of 14,000. We take the Government of 100,000 natives, and, by some means or other, we must do so. He could assure the Council his most anxious duties had reference to the natives. Those who think the pro- \ tectors useless, should sit in his office for one day,.; they would see how much their services were required. More of his (the Governor's) time was occupied by the natives than by his own countrymen. This colony was different from any other colony. In other colonies they either had a small or no native population ; or were supported by convict establishments. In this colony we have no large expenditure on account of Government; but a very large native population ; and a distance from home that requires ten or twelve months to receive answers to letters. The Home Government considered all these circumstances in selecting persons to fill the most important situations ; especially in the judicial department. He differed with the honourable member (Dr. Martin) who seemed to think that the salary of Judge Martin should be measured by the income of professional men. His honour the Judge had saved this colony from falling into many serious errors. Of all the officers appointed by the Home Government, none occupied their attention so much, nor did they feel more anxious about than the appointment of the Judge. [He here passed a very high eulogium on his honour Judge Martin.] It was not salary ; he had other objects in view, of a more elevated character, in leaving his home than the mere receipt of salary. It would be unjust to interfere with the salary the colony had never paid; nor was it likely to do so this year. If we were to adopt the proposal of the three non-official members, we should interfere with salaries paid by the Home Government Had the colony hitherto paid all expenses, it would be good reason why we should see what the colony could do. The colony had been governed by the assistance of the Home Government ; and would be so otilL The honourable member (Dr. Martin) had given notice of a motion to reduce the Survey Department He could assure the Council that the present establishment was too

limited. In reducing it one half, he felt he had done the colony an injury. The want of an efficient survey had delayed the settlement of the land claims. He again spoke of the service of the protectors, and by way of illustrating their efficiency, mentioned a case that came under his notice. A robbery having been committed by a number of natives belonging to the MattaMatta tribe, on the property of several settlers residing at Papa Kura, with the assistance of the protectors he was enabled to make arrangements with the chiefs that all the property should be restored, and compensation made. With respect to the land commissioners, Dr. Martin had referred to the salaries as a reason why the settlement of the claims would be delayed, as if no sense of honour existed in Government officers. One would wonder with whom the honourable member had lived, to imagine they would, for the sake of their salaries, protract their duties. Delay had been occasioned by impediments not in their power to prevent. {He here passed a long eulogium on Mr. Spain]. So far from his (Mr. Spain) wishing to protract, he tendered his resignation to him (the Governor) in January last, on account of the difficulties of his situation.

Dr. Ma rtin interrupted the Governor, andbegged to state that he had no desire to be dragged into a personal quarrel with Mr. Spain. His remarks were generally applied to the commissioners of land claims, and not to Mr. Spain specially, and he was not prepared to submit to such an unjustifiable attack as his Excellency deemed it proper to make. The Governor said the honourable member would have an - opportunity of replying when he has done.

Dr. Martin stated that he would wait his Excellency's pleasure. He was quite prepared to answer, and could bear all his animadversions until he was done.

The Governor, continued and said if anything was said against an official, and he (the Governor) thought differently, he had a right to express his opinion. He might be using strong terms, but considered he was justified. Aspersions might be made in newspapers which he did not feel bound to notice ; but, in Council, he felt it his duty to repel them. He here passed an eulogium on Government officers generally ; and said he had been a Government officer all his life ; and could assure the Council that they possessed a delicate sense of honour. He was quite sure the honourable member had never been the associate of Government officers. If the Land Commissioners' labours ceased at the end of two years, it would be a matter of congratulation. Dr. Martin had compared Prince Edward's Island with this colony. His (the Governor's) brother was at one time Governor there ; and he was'able to state that for four months in the year the island was in a state of torpor. Business was entirely suspended through the winter. Besides, it was only a dependent Government, the Governor being only Lieutenant-Go-vernor, no question of importance was decided there, but sent to the Governor of the Canadas, or home. An answer was received in two months, which was very different with a colony at the antipodes. Apologizing for taking up so much time, he proceeded to remark that the present flourishing condition of South Australia was owing to the great expenditure of capital in Governor Gawler's time. All public offices having been built in a most substantial manner, no expense for repair was required for years to come. Less expenditure was now required. The honourable member (Dr. Martin) seemed desirous that he (the Governor) should, in imitation of Governor Grey, drive the people from the town into the bush. Did he (Dr. Martin) not know the bush was not prepared for them; that there was no safety for them, and no food ? Honourable members, in opposing direct taxation, seemed to have changed their minds about free trade. He had not. He had advocated free trade in young colonies — not in old colonies; there vested rights interfered. It was a question of direct or indirect taxation. He looked upon direct taxation as a means for abolishing the custom-house and its duties altogether. He calculated upon receiving about £2,000 this year, and £6,000 or £8,000 next year, for land and house taxes. At present it cost £4,000 to collect £16,000 of customs duties ; and every year it would have to be extended along a line of coast of 3,000 miles. He went on to show that England could only keep up her custom-house duties by her superiority in the seas. He objected to voting a certain sum, and leaving him to distribute it ; it was an idle way of doing business. He would have them show where reduction could be made.

Dr. Martin said that, before noticing the remarks which his Excellency had been pleased to apply to him personally, he would endeavour to reply to some of the various subjects alluded to in the very comprehensive speech delivered by his Excellency. The first part of that speech that he would notice, was the remark of his Excellency that the colonists should not gaze at difficulties. He could assure him that the settlers had been long enough gazing at difficulties, and hoping that they would be removed ; but time had only shown them that their difficulties were daily increasing, and they were now despairing of ever being able to overcome them. His Excellency had spoken of the debt of gratitude which the colonists owed the Government. He must, indeed, be ignorant of the treatment received at the hands of the Government of this colony, when he would, for an instant, speak of such a thing as gratitude. It was a mockery of the feelings and sufferings of the people of this country to make mention of such a term. His Excellency could not surely be unacquainted with the treatment of the old settler*.: — their wrongs and their sufferings were as household names. Every person knew how they had been treated by the Government, and the benefits they had received from the large Government expenditure which his Excellency prized so much. The debt of gratitude was so light in his estimation, that he believed a puff of wind would drive it to the uttermost corner of the earth. He was not one of those who desired to see the colony without a Government. He believed that some form of Government was necessary to the preservation of order in every country or community. He had been in New Zealand before the British authority was established ; and even then there was some form of Government — simple and primitive, but tending more or less to the preservation of order and peace. People had certainly no fear of the law in those days ; bat their own character and s certain sense of honour regulated their conduct towards one another. His Excellency had remarked

that the aborigines required to be attenlted to. He quite agreed with him in that opinion; but he did not think the few Europeans in the country could be expected to maintain a Government for that purpose. He was aware that certain persons deemed the protectors of aborigines altogether useless. He did not agree with such persons; but he believed that the establishment was too expensive. The salaries of the protectors were ordered by the Home Government to be defrayed out of special funds: these funds were not now in existence ; and he did not think that protectors had any right to expect to be paid from the general revenue of the colony. He considered the missionaries a much more useful class than the protectors. They attended both to the temporal and spiritual interests of the aborigines ; and exercised a much greater influence over them than the protectors. But if the societies which at present support these useful missionaries should happen, from some cause or other, to be unable to pay their salaries, it would surely not be expected that they should be paid from the ordinary revenue of 4he colony, with regard to the judge, he would be the last person to dispute his qualifications. His character, both as a scholar and a lawyer, stood very high ; and he did not think it fair that it should be made a matter of discussion before this Council. With respect to Mr. Spain, he was sorry that his Excellency should have endeavoured to make it appear that he wished to make any personal remarks as far as that gentleman was concerned. He begged that it should be distinctly understood that he spoke of the Commissioners of Land Claims generally, and not of Mr. Spain in particular. He would now reply to that part of his Excellency's speech which was personally addressed to himself. His Excellency wondered where he had lived ; and said emphatically that he could not have been an associate of Government officers. He was not ashamed to tell where he had lived, and where he had come from. If his Excellency had any curiosity to know, he would tell him Ips whole history. He had been brought up in a country where honour, honesty, and virtue were esteemed; and where a man would be despised who wanted them. His Excellency had dwelt upon the remark that he could not have associated with Government officers ; as if it had been a crime not to have done so. He had certainly not associated with Government officers in this colony. He neither sought nor avoided their society. Some of them he respected ; but many of them he did not. He had associated with Government officers in other countries. Perhaps he might have been one himself, had he been anxious to obtain such distinction. But he could assure his Excellency he cared very little about the society of Government officers. He had not been in society in this colony. He never thought there was any ; and he cared nothing about it. The Governor had asked in what society he had moved, and what class of men he had lived with, and said they must have been possessed of little sense of honour. The Governor explained that he meant they must have had very erroneous opinions of Government officers. Dr. Martin continued : the Governor had made sweeping charges against him without even taking the trouble of stating the expressions which he had really used. He could not submit to this, because he would himself be the hut man to bring a charge against a Government officer or any other person. He knew the value of character too well to be guilty of such conduct. But he did feel surprised that a Government officer with a very large salary engaged at home for a certain period should, when that period had ceased, be still, in the depressed state of the colony, continued at the same enormous salary. As a charge had been made against his own character, he must endeavour to meet it. The Governor said he did not wish the honourable member to be placed in the position of defending himself. Dr. Martin could not help noticing the matter, because the Governor had dwelt so much upon it. The Governor wished the honourable member to understand that he (the Governer) did not mean to lay any charge against his character. Dr. Martin again said it was true that he had not been the associate of Government officers in this colony. He had no wish to associate with them. In one of the neighbouring colonies he had associated with some of the highest officers of Government — men for whom he had much respect. In this colony there were a few of the Government officers whom he respected, and many whom he did not. He dwelt on this subject because, on a former day, his Excellency had received a simple and honest caution as if the remarks were really his own and preferred as a charge against his Excellency. The Governor wished to assure the honourable member that he had not the slightest intention to say anything offensive ; that he (the Governor) entertained the highest possible respect for him. It was the great respect he (the Governor) had for the honourable member that made him (the Governor) place him where he was then sitting. He considered him to be a valuable colonist ; and the colonists were much indebted to him for the good he had done; and he hoped the honourable member did not include him (the Governor) in the interdiction against Government officers ; for he could assure the honourable member that he (the Governor) was anxious on all occasions when opportunities would offer to cultivate the honourable member's acquaintance. The Colonial Secretary thought Dr. Martin unfortunate in his remarks relative to the Land Commissioners. These remarks conveyed an insinuation against their honour. The Colonial Secretary then stated the precise words used by Dr. Martin. Dr. Martin thanked the honourable secretary for reminding him of the precise words. He knew his memory was very good ; and could assure him he was quite right in saying that he (Dr. Martin) was unfortunate on the subject of the Commissioners of Land Claims. They were, indeed, the most unfortunate subject he ever came in contact with. They had, for upwards of four years, kept him out of his lands. They were a most unfortunate subject for him. As a land claimant, he had suffered much from them. He felt keenly on tfce subject; and he thought some allowance mJl&tbr made for him, especially as he was not possessed of the cool Scottish temperament of Iris mead the Colonial Secretary. He woufir not d>tll longer on that subject, but advert shortly to soma of the other subjects treated of by hia Excellency . Ths

had stated as a, reaaon why the salaries •ojf officer* in Prince Edward's Island should be low,. that that country was, daring four months in the yew, in a state of torpor. His Excellency did not sorely mean to iay that, dating that period, the talaries of the officers were not paid. With regard to the cause of the prosperity of South Australia, he differed with hii Excellency. He did not believe that a large government expenditure was the cause of that prosperity. South Australia prospered because of ita nearneis to- New South Wales ; and because of the large herds of cattle and the innumerable flock* of sheep which had been sent to it from that country. The sheep and cattle of New South Wales attracted the people of South Australia from the town into the bush. In wishing that the people of this colony should, in a similar manner, be driven into the bush, he did not for a moment mean to say that his Excellency should forcibly do so. He was glad to say that he was already accomplishing this object by settling the land claims. The people had been too long in the town; and as to any danger because of settling in the interior of this country, he was sure there was lest to be apprehended in the bush of New Zealand than in New South Wales. His Excellency stated that members had changed their opinions on. free trade. He, for one, was still an advocate for free trade : but he had no desire that direct taxes should be imposed while our harbours were closed against free trade, by an expensive customs establishment He would not, however much he valued free trade, consent to the imposition of direct and indirect taxes at the same time. His Excellency might expect that direct taxation might lead to the abolition of customs. But he had no faith in the Home Government. If they could find that direct taxes would raise a revenue sufficient, together with the customs, to defray the expenses of the government of the colony, he feared they would keep oa both taxes; no matter what the settlers might suffer, and however poor they might' be. The mother country cared very little about the colonies.

Mr. Clifford, in answer to the remarks that had fallen from his Excellency and the honourable member (Dr. Martin), thought that Mr. Spain's character stood too high to require defence, and that enough had already been said upon the subject He was pleased to be able to count that gentleman among his personal friends; and was quite aware that the onerous and difficult duties he bad to perform were deserving of a high salary. But he objected strongly to the people being called upon to pay it The principal difficulties in the settlement of the southern land claims had arisen from misunderstandings and disputes between the Government and the New Zealand Company, and they certainly ought to pay the expense of settling them. In answer to a question from his Excellency, it was impossible for him (Mr. Clifford) to give an opinion as to when the settlement of the land claims would be complete. Even his Excellency had been deceived in the time required; and new difficulties were so constantly springing up that in the south the business appeared interminable. The honourable member resumed — He did not wish to limit the expenditure of the colony to £22,000. He only wished to state that the colony could not afford to pay more than was raised from present sources, and that it was only -fair that the rest should be paid from home. As his Excellency seemed to think this would be the case, he did not see why the taxation bills should not be withdrawn, in which event he was sure honourable members would at once pass the estimates laid before them. It had been stated that one great cause of expense was extending the benefits of government to the aborigines. Npw he really thought it unfair that the European inhabitants should be charged with this. No doubt that the interests of the aborigines should be attended to in every possible way, and that they should participate in the benefits of a government. But, if they cannot pay their share, it ought to be paid by the mother country, which expects to reap the benefit of settling the colony. The Colonial Secretary said the question was whether the establishments should be reduced or. not, and the consideration whether a sufficient sum could be raised.

Mr. Brown thought the real question before the Council had been lost sight of. It was not whether any or all the departments were too expensive, bnt whether the colonists could contribute the large sum of £36,000 now asked for, to carry on the government for the current year. The expence of these departments was a separate question. As to the amount of taxation, he (Mr. Brown) for one would not vote for any sum above £20,000, as he was quite satisfied the colony could not afford to give more. Indeed, by agreeing to give that, he doubted much whether it would not be the funds of our creditors that we were voting away, and we neither ought to do this, nor had we any right to vote away the money of the mother country. The official members placed great reliance on assistance from the British Government. He thought it would be well if those members who were of that opinion would propose a separate vote for such aid. The estimated revenue of the current year he found to be £21,000, and he was sure the ' colony could not afford to give more. It had been * stated that the colonists were not expected to pay the full amount of the current expenditure, and ' that therefore it was not necessary to limit the sum to their capabilities. But he differed with honourable members in this respect, thinking that if the £36,000 were voted, fresh taxes would be immediately imposed tc raise it, and three bills were already before the Council. Hia Excellency had remarked that these were introduced solely with the view of introducing direct taxes preparatory to an abolition of customs and the introduction of a ■yitem of free trade. Bnt these taxes could not be viewed in this light; they were partial in their operatiftn, and oppressive under the circumstances of toe colony. He Would be happy to see free trade established here, and with that view would most warmly support the introduction of a rational and equitable system of direct taxation, but such a measure must be accompanied by a repeal of indirect taxation at the same time. The free trade at present contemplated by the Government was a free trade in taxes, and not in commerce. ' The Atto*n*t-Gknuai. agreed with Mr. Clifford that the salary of the Land Commissioner fthould not be paid by the people, though he did njQt arrive at, the same conclusions. No impediments to the, settlement of their claims had been offered either bjr the I*ocal or the Home Government; on the contrary, every facility bad been

afforded. The salaries ought to be paid by the New Zealand Company. Mr. Clifford did not exactly agree with what had fallen from the Attorney-General; but so that the people had not to pay he would be satisfied. Dr. Martin agreed with Mr. Brown, with reference to how the question should be put. He was convinced that a larger sum than £20,000 could not be raised. The people had been living not on their own capital but the property of their creditors, and it would be wrong to vote away the property of other people. He might give offence by bis remarks, but he felt he had a duty to perform. The Governor did not, as Mr. Brown supposed, come before the people generally to ask for. £36,000, but to ask the Legislative Council to authorize a certain expenditure, to be made up by the revenue of the colony and assistance from the Home Government. He expected fnm £14,000 to £16,000, and had no doubt a like uum would be voted for the use of this colony for the next three years. He moved the second reading of the bill.

Mr. Brown said it appeared by the estimates that £21,000 was the amount of revenue raised. He thought that sum was all the colony could raise. He objected to additional taxes. If the Governor wished to open the ports, let him bring in a bill imposing direct taxation and abolishing the Customs, and he (Mr. Brown), would vote for it. The Governor's ideas of free trade appeared to be free trade in taxes instead of free trade in commerce. After some further remarks, the honourable member suggested that, before going into the items of the proposed expenditure, a return should be laid before the Council of the actual expenditure of 1843, distinguishing- money paid on account of 1842 or 1844, so that the Council might compare the expenses of 1843 with the proposed expenditure of this year, and'see if any reduction could be made.

Return ordered to be laid on the table on Tuesday next. Bill read a second time. Council adjourned to Tuesday.