WAR REGULATIONS

Nelson Evening Mail, Volume LXXIII, 5 December 1940, Page 6

WAR REGULATIONS

SEVERE OPPOSITION CRITICISM EMERGENCY MEASURES AND CONTROL BY STATE j THREE MINISTERS TAKE PART IN DEBATE t

[From Our Own Parliamentary Reporter] WELLINGTON. This Day. In accordance with an assurance previously given by the Prime Minister (Mr Fraser) the House of Representatives had the opportunity last night of discussing the war regulations and took full advantage of it. Urgency was taken for the debate so that the sitting could last beyond the normal time for adjournment. Members of the Opposition contended that the Government with many of the regulations it had introduced had usurped the prerogatives of Parliament. In his reply on behalf of the Government the Attorney. General (Mr Mason) said that regulations were not introduced for the sake of doing so. The simple truth was that as the social system became more complex the number of regulations inevitably increased. The House rose at 12.45 a.m.

ATTACK LAUNCHED BY MR DOIDGE < Declaring that the making of laws • had passed from the elected represen- . tatives of the people to a group of departmental heads, Mr F. W Doidge . (National. Tauranga), in opening the . discussion on waf regulations, launch- . ed a strong attack against the system , of government by Order-in-Council. , “Every Minister,” he said, “is a dictator ' and every departmental head a lord ! high executioner.” Mr Doidge said that during the past , year more laws had been made by Order-in-Council than by Parliament. , The Rt. Hon. G. W. Forbes (National, Hurunui): Ten times as many. Mr Doidge: Yes, ten times as many, and not one man in ten in this House knows one-tenth of the new laws im- : posed by Order-in-Council. The lawyers do not know, and certainly the people do not know. The Prime Minister (Mr Fraser): . They seem to be quite happy about it. . Mr Doidge said they wanted their laws simplified, not multiplied. and • Parliament should say what was an ( offence, not a civil servant. He referred to the Price Regulations and j the powers that were entrusted to the Price Tribunal, which affected every one. It over-rode the Board of Trade Act and other measures. Those things were done without the cognisance of Parliament by bureaucrats with more powers than Parliament. Mr Doidge mentioned the Patriotic ' Purposes Regulations, which, he claimed. throttled the patriotic effort at its ; birth. It was not until mistakes had been realised that they had been re- ] laxed, and it was only now that the ' people were responding wholehearted- : ly. They would respond more happily if they could put their trust in the ; Government. The speaker mentioned the confusion that followed the issue of the Home ] Guard regulations, with the result ' that the Minister had to stump the country. “I admit he has done a good job,” said Mr Doidge. The petrol ' regulations, he continued, had practically blackened-out the industry. ' Parliament had no say in them. Under these regulations the Minister could 1 make decisions having the force of law. !' That was Parliament’s right. There were regulations they approved, among them those relating ' to the sale of liquor to soldiers. The behaviour of the men in uniform on the whole was exceptionally good, and J they 'were proud of them, but there \ was a small section that did misbehave . because of drinking and they brought the others into disrepute. Mr Doidge admitted that some of the '' regulations had their amusing side. ' There were for instance regulations [ dealing with milk, pipis, turtles, stal- : lions, sick dogs, and even raspberries. ' There were regulations that affected ' the householder in a multitude of ways. ] “For instance,” he said, "if the stopper ' c the bath is broken off the chain, I 1 must not fix it. I must call a plumber. J If I do it myself I contravene the ; ; regulations. The Prime Minister: I have contravened that one. and I will do so 1 again. Mr J. A. Lee (Democratic Labour,! Grey Lynn): But the member for Tauranga is a moral man! Mr Doidge next touched on subversive propaganda, with particular reference to Jehovah’s Witnesses and their publication. “It is just pitiful rubbish,” he said, “and I marvel at the mentality of the people who read such nonsense. It is not suppressed in Australia.” Mr Lee: It is not subversive. Mr Doidge concluded by contending that the present system meant complete control of the economic life of the country. The people were submerged under an avalanche of regulations. These methods avoided critical examination by Parliament and in the press. The making of laws had passed from the elected representatives of the people to a group of departmental heads. PRIME MINISTER DEFENDS GOVERNMENT The Prime Minister, Mr Fraser, was on his feet immediately Mr Doidge resumed his seat. He said the member for Tauranga had missed the whole purpose of the War Regulations. The purpose of the debate was not to discuss regulations generally. There might be an excellent case against previous Governments in respect to regulations but during a time of war it was necessary to give the Government power to make regulations under various Acts. “We are at war and the member for Tauranga seems to altogether forget that,” lie continued. “We are discussing nothing else but war regulations not the thousands of other regul- i ations over the years. Mr Doidge (National, Tauranga): Under the guise of war you are doing all those things. The Prime Minister accused the member for Tauranga of being reckless in his speech. He had blundered into it, piling up a spurious and untenable case. He had only mentioned one or two regulations concerning the war some of which the Government had reluctantly put into operation at the request of people whose living was at stake. For instance the growers had begged the Government to make regulations concerning raspberries in order to save the industry. Mr Fraser said that if the country was to survive it was necessary for the Government to have such powers as those that were being criticised, but they could only be justified by the use that was made of them. In war time situations quickly developed and it was necessary that the Government should have the powers to deal with them. ' Mr W. J. Poison (National, Strat- i ford): It is the application of the regul- ; ations. The Prime Minister: The power must be there. ALL REGULATIONS CONSIDERED NECESSARY Powers must not be used tyrannously or onerously Mr Fraser continued, nor for political purposes or for something they were not intended for. Regulations concerning subversion were necessary. Things that might be said in normal times might be inimical to the public interest in war time and upset civil relationships. None of the regulations that he was familiar with was unuecessary but if it were found that any were of no use or benefit they would be cut out, and if anything done by regulation could be carried

the people of this country were enjoying. and which gave 12 holidays in a month. “The position is utterly absurd,” he jpi oceeded. “Mr Speaker, let me say i this with full conviction, that it is time ’•vc as a people stopped fooling and got J on with the job. What this country has 1 ‘si learn or re-learn is the simple thing ; that our prosperity depends upon hard work. (Opposition hear, hears.) That has been an unpopular thing to say for a few years. It will be a much more agreeable thing to say in the next few years, because it is gradually penetrating through the minds of all thinking people that there can be no prosperity without real hard work. It is quite impossible for us to maintain our standards with 50,000 men in uniform, unless we increase work." The people of New Zealand were | solind at heart and were anxious to i help the Empire in its time of need, j Mr W. J. Poison (National. Strat--1 ford): They are getting no lead.

WORKERS OF COUNTRY RESPONDING MAGNIFICENTLY

“No regulation affecting labour laws has been introduced unless it has been thoroughly investigated by the Industrial Emergency Council,” declared the Minister of Labour (Mr Webb), “and there is no committee doing a greater national service so far as these regulations are concerned.” Mr Webb said that the committee was representative of employers and workers, and it left its politics behind. They were fair-minded, practical men. and the Minister resented anyone saying anything disparaging about them. More than thirty awards had been altered to meet changed conditions. The Minister said that those in industry were doing a magnificent job. Where commodities were short they were working seven days a week and day and night to provide the extra commodities. “The workers of this country are responding splendidly, “he continued, “but there is a lot more to be done. There has not developed in some workers’ minds an appreciation of the seriousness of the position, and that is not only apparent as far as the workers are concerned. There are men in industry hoping to make a profit out of the war.” The Minister said he felt that the speech of the Leader of the Opposition was not calculated to inspire unity. Mr Poison: What about the speech you made to the Denniston miners? Mr Webb: I hope to have an opportunity of making the same speech in this House. Mr Poison: For goodness’ sake, we don’t want to hear it! Mr Webb said that the Government w’anted unity. “We want to feel that whatever we do will be for the common good, and that we will give the greatest possible service to the British Commonwealth.” he added. MR LEE’S LETTER Mr J. A. Lee (Democratic Labour, Grey Lynn) objected strongly to the speech made by the Leader of the Opposition on the grounds that it conveyed the impresison that New Zealand was a nation of slackers. The sum total of our production showed that we were an industrial people, but they would not get the best out of the workers if they created resentment in their hearts. He was just as much concerned about the regulations as anybody, but his approach to them could not be just a wholehearted 100 per cent, opposition. We were living in a time and a day when the democratic machine must move very rapidly, and he was not too sure that many of the methods for speedy legislation embodied in the war regulations perhaps would not have to be continued in peace if democracy was to continue. What seemed to be important to him was that during the war Parliament should continue in session or be recalled periodically as it had been, and that whenever any issue of importance was to be dealt with by regulation the House should, in a short-term debate, be given the opportunity of discussing the principle. After Mr Lee had sat down, Mr Holland complained that he had been grossly misrepresented. He had not said that the workers of New Zealand \\ ere a nation of slackers. He had paid tribute to the workers. The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Martin) characterised the Opposition criticism of the regulations as propaganda. Speaking of the Dairy Regulations, he said that these were being operated with the fullest co-operation of the dairy industry. The regulations had not been put into operation until they had received the fullest consideration by the Dairy Board and leaders of the industry. In fact, it was at their request that the regulations had been brought, down. Referring to the change over from the production of butter to cheese, the Minister said that the helpful attitude of the farmers wae shown by the fact that out of 1500 suppliers only 43 had appealed. Five of the appeals had been allowed and there had been no friction at any stage. MR POLSON ATTACKS MINISTER OF LABOUR Indignation was expressed by Mr W. J. Poison (National. Stratford), at the remarks of the Minister of Labour regarding the unhelpful comments of the Opposition. The Minister, said Mr Poison, had spoken as if he had clone a great deal for the war effort and had raged at the House about what others should do. There was no member ol the House who had less justification for taking that attitude. There was no man in the country who had done more to cause class hatred during the past months, and for him to appeal to the Opposition not to arouse class hatred did not come very well. The Prime Minister rose to a point of order and said that Mr Poison was not discussing the regulations. The Speaker said that he had allowed a great deal of latitude. ATTORNEY-GENERAL REPLIES TO DEBATE Replying to the debate, the AttorneyGeneral (Mr Mason) said that the cry about the “despotism” of Civil Servants was really just as ridiculous as the suggestion that Orders-in-Council were something new. They were at least as | old as the time of Henry VIII. There were complaints at that time against the prerogative power to issue Orders-in-Council It was not a case of despotism. All the regulations were made under the authority of Acts of Parliament. It was inevitable that the regulations should increase in number with the increasing complexity of our social system. That was the simple truth of the matter. Mr Mason sa!i! he wholeheartedly endorsed the sentiment that there should be as few regulations as possible. However one’s disinclination to have rules did not in any way save one from the necessity of having then*. He said he would be sorry if the control over regulations vvas removed from Parlia--1 mert. ! Mr W. A. Borkin (National. Central | Parliament never gets any opj portunity to consider regulations. 1 Mr Mason said that Parliament got certain opportunities, but if regulations were to become so important a part of procedure and the facilities Parliament now gave for discussing them were inadequate, that was a matter that could be given consideration to see whether the opportunity for discussing them could be increased. The use of regulations must not be regarded as mismanagement of the part of the Government, nor as a desire for power on the part of officials.

out by Statute law he was prepared to j consider it. Certainly great powers ! were given under the War Emergency j Regulations. They were a sacred trust that was not embarked upon lightly. Adequate reasons were given for the various regulations and he mentioned those that were meant to safeguard various phases of the country's war effort. It was better to cause some slight inconvenience to thousands of people than to find a blow struck at j some of the country’s vital points. No Government could guarantee that every officer would administer , the laws and regulations 100 per cent efficiently and there might be those who liked to feel that they had power but anything that was not right should be brought to the notice of the responsible Minister. People’s lives could be made unnecessarily miserable by regulations but that was not the intention. That did not mean that the regulations should be abolished. As the war went on regulations became appalling in volume and he admitted it was impossible for everybody to keep trace of them. He personally, could not. To the average citizen going about his work the laws were not burdensome, neither were the regulations. PETR ' x j REGULATIONS The Prime Minister, referring to the petrol regulations, said the British Government expected New Zealand to safeguard its supplies. Rationing had been put into effect and a certain gallonage was fixed for storage purposes to safeguard the interests of the country. If people were inconvenienced by not being able to use their cars for pleasure trips it was one of the burdens they had to bear at the present time. It was nothing compared with the sacrifices made in Great Britain where death and destruction were raining down. The Government was responsible for the welfare and the lives of the men, women and children of New Zealand and at a time of crisis it was necessary to have extraordinary powers. The Government could not function without those powers and this applied to every British country and to belligeri ent countries as well, i Mr Fraser said that tyrants and dictators had plunged the world into war and nobody could see the end. He thought that members should refrain from petty and irritating criticism as far as the country’s war effort was concerned. A National Government had been rejected generally and therefore there was no obligation upon the Opposition to refrain from criticism as far as the Government was concerned but there was a responsibility for every member of the House to refrain from unnecessary and unfair criticism of the war effort that had no foundation. They had the opportunity both in secret and in open session to put forward suggestions and to criticise anything which they considered weaknesses in order to help the country to go forward to victory. FEARLESS CRITICISM BY OPPOSITION The Leader of the Opposition (Mr S. ! G. Holland) concluded his contribution tc the debate to the accompaniment of a. round of applause from his colleagues. He said that the Opposition members had a right and duty to express themselves fearlessly and courageously and no tongue thrashing the Prime Minister cou’d administer was going to lessen their contribution to the debates when they had the opportunity of expressing themselves and showing the public what was going on. Although the country was at war, said Mr Holland. Parliament was still the place where the voice of the people was to be expressed, and they would do the country a great disservice if they handed over to the civil service the job that was their prerogative and their duty. The duty of Parliament was to function as such. Time after time assurances had been received from the Government that it would do so and so, and the Opposition had made an earnest appeal that those assurances should be written into the Statute Book. If it wc.s not the intention to apply a loosely drawn clause in a particular direction, then the Government should delay the introduction of legislation until it could draw it in more easily understandable language. He supposed it was right to say that the New ; Zealand Public Service was as efficient as any in the British Empire, but he ; submitted that the laws should be , written in understandable language, . and should not be subject to the interI pretation of civil servants no matter , how efficient they might be. Under , those conditions, he suggested that was the beginning bureaucracy and the ; birthplace of dictatorship. He had no ; hesitation in saying that the regulations they were discussing had been : employed in a number of directions > and on numerous occasions to do the » things that Parliament itself would not * countenance. If what he said was true, continued ■ Mr "Holland, then that was simply bad - law-making at its worst. If a regulation could not pass the House it had no t right to be in operation at all. I The Prime Minister( Mr Fraser): - Prrliamf*nt can disapprove any parti- • cular regulation. I Mr Holland 'said he was not so sure ’ that was correct. ; Mr Fraser said that if Mr Holland in- » dicated any particular regulation that : had been tabled and on which he wish- ; ed to test the feeling of the House, he : would be given the opportunity. Mr Holland replied that that was a . concession and showed that the debate i was worth while. Continuing he briefly reviewed a number of the regula- ■ | tions. He contended that it was not ■ I necessary to bring down regulations ! calling for increased production from t j the dairy farmers. If the dairy , farmers were told the Gov- | ' ernment’s wishes, they would be ful- ; filled. The dairy farmers did not like j coercion and Orders-in-Council. Mr Fraser: They have done very well, i WORKERS PREPARED TO WORK EXTRA HOURS 1 i s Mr Holland contended that thousands 1 i of workers were prepared to work ex--j tra hours at ordinary rates of pay to e ! help the war effort, but had been pre- ) vented from doing so. In Canterbury j | last month only 18 or 19 days had been t j worked out of the 30 while the people g of England were fighting 24 hours of dj the day in defence of the very freedom