SHOP ASSISTANTS' PAY.

Manawatu Standard, Volume XLI, Issue 8305, 8 June 1907, Page 7

SHOP ASSISTANTS' PAY.

THE SYDNEY CASE

MR SAMUEL HORDERN'S

EVIDENCE

TRANSACTIONS OF A UNIVERSAL PROVIDER.

A COLOSSAL BUSINESS

Some insight into the transactions of Mr Samuel Hordern (sole proprietor of the extensive business known as Anthony Hordern and Sons, universal providers, whose premises are one of the show places of Sydney) is gained by reading the report in the Sydney Telegraph of Mr Hordern's evidence in the shop assistants' dispute at the Arbitration Court. Mr Hordern said he employed 1200 persons in his retail business. There were more than 4000 altogether in his employ.

Mr Rolin: You don't discharge your employees when they become old?— Well, I was talking to one last night who is seventy-one. My manager in England is seventy-two. We have 140 employees over forty-five years of-age. My old servant died the other day. She was eighty-three. Will you show to the Court in camera your profits?— With pleasure. How do you reckon the profits ? — Well, I don't allow for any salary for myself. (Laughter.) We reckon the cost of the goods as they lie in the shop, and mark them at a fixed profit. We don't even allow for interest on capital. And as to the profits, 3 —Well, one year we did not make much. We had to fight a competitor,, who let in one warehouseman for £16,000. He charged 10s for goods which cost £1.

* Witness said that his employees educated themselves, and he had smart salesmen now who had been carters.

SOME STRIKING PROMOTIONS

"The business has grown from a small start, and profits have gone into the business," said Mr Hordern. "I don't take all the credit for that, but give it also to those who have been associated with me. There are plenty of chances of getting on, if a man likes to take advantage of his opportunities. I know a man who started in the shop as a boy sorting string and picking up papers. He gets hundreds a year now—l may say thousands—and he has been independent of me long ago. He took advantage of his opportunities. Another one who started as an office boy is now getting very nearly £1000 a year, or over. If a man has ability it must come out. There is another man who is now seventy-one years of age. He started at 30s per week, and is now getting £30 per week. It's their business as well as mine; one man can't do everything. I give my employees Id in the £ as a bonus, not on profits, but on sales. The heads of departments share £25,000 yearly between them. They say I could get more profits than I do, but I don't want them. I won't give a bonus on profits, but on sales. My cashier has his own property now, so I suppose he gets a pretty fair screw. Of course, he started with me over twenty years ago, and he reminded me that he then got 4s 2d per week, and the hours then were from 6 a.m.'to 8 p.m., not from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. as now." Mr Rolin: How long does it take to learn to become a salesman ? —Four years, but some of them never become seniors. "In former days," said Mr Hordern, "the shopwalker was usually head of the department. Now, all he has to do is to be polite, hand the lady a chair, and see that she is not neglected." Mr Rolhn asked the witness if he could pay the minimum wages asked for by the union. "We will pay," said Mr Hordern, "anything the Court orders, but it will kill the small man. I used to be a small man, and served behind the counter, gave the change, and kept my eye on everything. Things have grown now ,and I can't do it all. In those days I thought I was doing very well to give a man £2. He was satisfied, and so was I ; but it was rather too much for me to pay those days." Mr Hordern said that in his office the men between the years to twentyfonr and thirty earned from 32s 6d to 120s per week. He did not believe in paying a married man less than £2 2s. There were ninety-one employees between the ages of twenty-one and twenty-three who re-! ceived between 20s and 50s, while there were 186 between twenty-four i and thirty getting from 25s to 555, with a few to 120s. In this case there were very few getting below 355. He, however, did not pay on the age basis, but took into consideration the reports of the manugers of the departments as to the ability and tact of the employee. He did not think that the minimum wage, £3 for an employee twentythree years of age, would work. Some of his boys who were in the docket-room were now in the office getting £6 or £7 per week. Some boys would not be worth £1 2s 6d per week after four years' service. Others would, and those who were not should get out. He did not think a married man could live under £2 2s a week. They could exist on 30s.

Mr Rolin : What, in your opinion, would be a fair minimum wage for an employee twenty-three years of age ? —I cannot say. It depends on the ability of the individual. L have odd low-wage men who are paid those wages because they are inferior in their business.

"I do not believe in the age basis," said Mr Hordern. "I don't see how it would work. What ebout my employee aged seventy-one? He'd own the shop." (Laughter.) Witness said that he had jumped young men up from £2 10s to £6. A DIFFICULT PROBLEM. The President: That's all very well. But what we are concerned with is the employee of the low standard. That is the class we have to deal with—the rank and file. They ar-i not brilliant. They are the plodders, who en well enough, to keep their positions., and they are thj great majority. On what basis would you pay them ? Mr Hordern,: lit is a very difficult problem. I think length of service should be considered. We would pay 4t)s, but if I was a small man I would Say 30s. I don't think the small man cctiM. pay £0s. —that is the _ man employing up to twelve ha'ilds.

Mr Riley: Do you think there should be two scales of wages, one for the large man, and one for the small? —I don't say that. The big firms have to pay high wages to men who are competent to carry out the work we haven't time to do ourselves. On the percentage basis the small shops made higher profits than the big ones. Mr Rolin : You apparently take a great interest in the fate of the small man. Why is that f—A uuni-

ber of them are my tenants and my customers. Ycur customers?— Yes, and more ho since tha restrictions placed on tr&de. The President: You mean the Early Closing Act? Mr Hordern: Yes, and also the tariff. Once a man could import a hundied pounds'. worth of goods without restriction. Now he has to put up, say, £25 to get them in, and he can't pay it. So he comes to us and has to buy on the same basis as sny oth-jr customer. Mr Rolin: Now, as to the ladies Have you oompiled a list of ages and wages ' J Mr Hordern: Thera was a great difficulty in getting their ages. In fact, some of the men would not give their ages. I don't know what they were afraid of. There are 203 ladies. There are forty-three between the ages of twenty-one and twenty-three. One is paid 7s 6d, ancl the wages run to 22s 6d There are eighty-one between the ages of twenty-four and thirty, and one gets j 10s. Others range to 30s. A girl who received a small wage would probably start at a late age. Only yesterday a young lady twenty-five years of age, who had been a public school teacher, and found it did not agree with her health, asked to be employed, and offered to give twelve months' service gratis. I do not think that a minimum wage on the age basis oould be applied to women. But a girl at eighteen. is smarter than a man at twenty-one—that is, if she is smart at all.

Mr Rolin: But the average girl is not as efficient as a man?—No; that is why we have 200 girls and 900 men, Mr Hordern said the average wages paid to the girls would probably be £1. "I have often said to them," he continued, " how on earth can you live on these small wages?" They have then told me that they live at home, and they prefer to go into the shop to entering professions their parents would not like." And are there plenty of girls offering?— The difficulty is to refuse without giving offence, there being so many parents anxious to get their daughters in.

Now, as to this bonus of Id in the £1 on sales. What does it amount to?— About £6000 to £8000 per year. About £300 in fines come off the bonuses each year. On what basis are fines imposed?— We have certain rules. By the way, a big Chicago house wrote to us for our rules, and ; later on, in a very nice letter, Baid they had adopted half of th'em. So we do teach America something. EXTENSIVE ADVERTISING. What about advertising?—Oh, yes, we attract by advertising, and then show goods up to the standard advertised. Is the cost of advertising heavy? —Oh, a few thousands a year. You say a few thousands?— Well, a good many. How many?—Oh, £20,000 a year; perhaps more—one year £85,000. To two newspapers alone we pay £2000 or £3000 a year each. You have a special writer of advertisements?— Our poor fellow died. Now two or three of us do it, but not so well as he did. Mr Hordern said the firm also had a printing establishment, where fifteen persons were exclusively engaged in turning out circulars, etc. Recently they had turned out eight million billheads. The union's claim as to proportion of seniors to juniors would not affect him much. He did not believe in giving employees notice of dismissal, nor did he think i* a union official should have the right of inspecting the wages-book. It would lead to mischief. Mr Rollin: There is a suggestion that there is an agreement amongst certain of the firms to obtain a fixed Erofit over the cost price?—l never eard of it. In fact, we try to keep it from each other.

Is there any truth in the suggestion that 33J per rent, is added to cost price?—No; it is nonsense. A man would soon go to the wall.

Is there any deliberate cutting of one line?—No; but, of course, we all have "bread and butter" lines. But you don't put it on to other lines.

The witness was cross-examined by Mr Beeby. '

So far as your experience goes, has the Early Closing Act affected your business?—lt has not; but it is killing the small man.

It is benefiting you, then?— Yes, but I don't want to live at the expense of my neighbour. I don't like to see the young fellow who is trying to get on in the suburbs affected. I don't think he should have to close his shop at six o'clock. It is better for him to be in his shop than, in the "pub" or the billiardroom, or having a row with his wife.

It is the aim of all shop assistants to get into your establishment?—l don't say that. We have fifty to one hundred applications a day. We don't, as a rule, employ Hoys who have had no experience. We like them broken in, having one or two years' experience. Are there 200 employees getting more than £200 a year? —Yes. Mr Hordern said his staff did not alter much. A lad starting about eighteen grew up with the business. A boy of seventeen or eighteen, when put on first, would be given 15s a week, as a rule. He had no objection to giving a boy 15s if he had had two years' experience. It was the exception to give less. If the cost of labour was increased the extra money would come from the public. Everything would go up in proportion. If an award was made in keeping with the union's claim he would not close his emporium, nor would he reduce his employees.