THE GORE PETITION AT THE PRESBYTERY.

Mataura Ensign, Volume 10, Issue 728, 9 December 1887, Page 6

THE GORE PETITION AT THE PRESBYTERY.

The hearing of the petition for the erection of a mission station at Gore, which was adjourned from a meeting of the Southland Presbytery held in Dunedin during the sitting of the Presbyterian Synod there, on at the ordinary meeting of the Southland Presbytery in the hall of the J?ir»t Church, Jnvercargill, on Wednesday morning. The Bey E. Wood occupied 'the Moderator 'a chair, and there appeared Messrs »ohn Mac Gibbon and W. A. McCaw in support of the petition; Messrs Gardner, Turnbull, Simpson, Dunlop, and the Rev A. Ma,ckay, aa representing the Kirk Session ; and Mr James Bsattie on bei half of the ( Managing Committee . ( . A large number of- • preliminaries were disposed of before the petition came on for hearing. <It was.read by the .Clerk of iPresby.tery, and, the text waaaafolv lows :— , . . {■■'] ," A Memorial unto the Reverend the PresbyI tery of Southland, in the Presbyterian 1 Church of Utago and Soutblaud.. , i, ; Reverend Sirs,— We, the undersigned,; late and present members and adherents of ihe Presbyterian Church, and being members of the Presbyterian Church of Utago and Southland, having felt that we ha- ve been, and are, unable to woiehip conscientiously in pur own Church, owing to 'our want of confidence in the ability of the minister of the Presbyterian Church to load us in spiritual things, and- to supply our spiritual necessities [o the lack of our growth in grace;' yet feeling also that we ttill cling to our Presbyterian faith, we would like to be in some way recognised' by the Presbyterian Church of Otago and Southland, as we hope to resume our place as members of the Gore congregation as soon as circumstances will allow. We hafve refrained hitherto from coming before you by petition in any form, hoping always that blighter days were in store for us. Lately, however, as jou are aware, such increased hopes were meanwhile quenched, and we venture now to approach you with the prayer that we may be still recognised as Presbyterians and that we may have permission grauted us to hold services among ourselves, assisted by Presbyterian ministers, or students, or both, which service, in the event of your granting our request, and erecting a mission station in our midst, we are fully prepared to support. Negotiations have beeu in progress in the church to effect our return, but as the leaving of the Church in which we have for bo long taken an active interest was not done hi the first instance without due deliberation and deep regret on our part,*we could not thus lightly set aside our conscientious convictions, especially as the causes for which we loft were neither removed nor lessened, rather aggravated indeed by several circumstances which our delegates to jou may endeavor to show. As we hare said, most of us are still warm Presbyterians, our objections not being to the Cuurch of our fathers, but to another cause, which involves conscience, and tne conscientious discharge of our duty towaids God und man, as requested of us. Moreover, we are batisfied ihut it would be dishonoring to God and to ourselves, as well as abusing the gift of a certain knowledge of good and evil which He has given us to use for His service, were we to lull con9ciance to sleep and wink at conveniences. We have strong faith to believe that the time will soon cuuic when we will be able to accede to tuu wwu of the congregation, which we would wniiugly do now but for given reasons, reasons which we also believe you, as a budy of Christian teachers perceive and know to be genuine, sincere, and sufficient. We have no wish to retard in any way the usefulness of the present church, but as we feel the want of communion and fellowship with one another in our wonted way, we meanwhile earnestly pray that you will take the whole premises into your Berious consideration, that our conciences may be respected, and that you may see your way clear to grant this our petition, to the cud that we may be recognised as belonging to the Presbyterian Church of Otago aud tiouthlaud, for our own spiritual good, and the glory of God, To this petition there were 54 signatures —23 members and 31 adherents. Other minutes of the Presbytery, which have already appeared in our columns, were read, bub were merely of a tormal nature. Partial) having been called to the bar, Mr McCaw was first called on to present ttie case for the petitioners. He said he was fully aware that in presenting uuch a petition to the Presbytery the petitioners were treading on very difficult ground, but feeling, as they did, that it was a matter of conscience with them they were emboldened to risk much in order to lay their case before them. The petition in great measure spoke for itself, but as it was there stated that the causes fur which the petitioners left; che church were aggravated by several circumstances waiud the delegates would i endeavor to show, and which tended to widen the breach made between the church and the petioners and in great measure prevented any attempt of reconciliation between parties, he would state a f«w things connected therewith. | He quoted from the Matauea Ensign of September 13, 1886, to the effect that an increase in the attendance was due to the absence of the didaffecied. xlo commented on this and on the following taken from the same paper of 2ud February, 1887. This referred to the presentation of an illuminated address to Mr Mackay, and was as follows : — To Roy, Andrew Mnokny, pastor of the Goro Prcsbytcriau Wmi'oli, N.^. Wo tlio undersigned heg to take fclio liberty of ojft pressing our sympathy, ivntl that o£ tlio congrcgntion, with you and your dear wife, on account of tho unchristian attack which sonic of the meinDars of tho I Church, made upon you. We heartily .congmtulnte you for the way you met such unmerited persucutiou ; and rejoice with you in tlio compete overthrow of the measures which were t aken for your hurt. Thie was signed by five elders and five deacons. Mr Mackay in reply spoke thus : — Jfr Simpson and Dear Friends,— l desjre to return you my wannest aud heartfelt thauka for tho kind words you have spoken, aud also for tho substantial expression of your sympathy. I pauuot tell you how

much I appreciate your sympathy, at. the time, of my trouble— one which I venture to gay would not bate occurred in tha church and' country from' whith I came. ,

Proceeding," Mr McCaw quoted ithe remarks of Rev Mr Ferguson at the congregational meeting held at Gore on 20th September, and also ut a meeting of the Presbytery ab .Wyndhani on the 21sc, at which Mr Tumbull was ; reported; to have said, that if the disaffected ones wenfc back, as many more would leave. This, he said, had been corrected by Mr TuVnb'ull at a subsequent meeting, but whether Mr Ferguson's, report „ or /Mr, ■ Turnbuirs correction was the more correct he duT not yet know. These statements, the speaker said, tended to strain the relations between those who had gone out from the' church and the 1 pastor and officebearers, that relating to the statement 'contained in" the illuminated address receiving most attention at the hands of, the speaker, who asked whether those who had gone out could be expected virtually to take to themBelvea the statements, in the address, without losing all self respect, and virtually acknowledging that they fully merited all contained in the address regarding them, and this they were very far indeed from doing, if they knew anything at all of right from wrong. These and other matters had confirmed the petitioners in the idea that the conference asked for had been at the wish of the congregation only, not at the wish of the paßtor or officebearers. Their hopes rose when Mr Mackay tendered his resignation, and judging froth the expressed declarations df some, of the leaders of. the church, who had emphatically declared in wordß, what however they directly opposed in action, the expectations of the petitioners that peace would once more feign had not Been fulfilled, the resignation being withdrawn. The Bpeakef then analysed the Bignaturea to the petition, and gave figures to shew ;hoW[ a; .good/ Sunday school nucleus was certain, and concluded by pointing out the danger there was of members joining other denominations (as in fact had been done to some extent already) whereas they, were, and wished to be, .associated with the church of their fathers. Fe left the "matter confidently in the hands of the Presbytery, Mr Mac Gibbon said there was little to add to the petition and Mr McOaw's remarks. Personally he felt the position very keenly. The reason he had for resolving never to enter the church again while Mr Mackay was in the pulpit he had already explained, and would not enter into the matter again. He explained the procedure the putitionera had adopted, and concluded by asking that a letter that had been sent by those who had been communicated with in regard to the proposed conference for promoting harmony amongst the Presbyterians of Gore should be read, as an impression had got abroad that the letter was unfit .to be read, owing to Mr Maokay's statement to a congregational meeting that it would be an insult, or next door to one, to the meeting to read the communication. A discussion ensued as to whether the letter should be read, and an expression of opinion was taken. On this being done, Mr Mackenzie called attention to Mr Mackay's interfering in this matter while he was at the bar. The Moderator said he did not notice it. Mr Mackenzie said Mr Mackay's voice waa loudest among the ' Noes.' A division was taken, and resulted as follows: — For the reading of the letter, 7 ; against, 5. The letter was read by Mr McCaw, and was as follows : — Gordon, 7tli October, 1887. Tho Moderator, and Members Presbyterian Churoh Kirk Session, Gore. Reverend Sir and Friends,— ln answer to your letter inviting us ta attend a conference of the minister, office-bearers and members of the church with the view of bringing about ft complete re-union of all Presbyterians in the parish, we have to state that after unitod consideration the following was agreed upon, viz. : Whon we loft the church wo did so after deliberately coniiug to tha conclusion that we oould have no confidence in tha present minister, and that in our opinion nothing has been done so far to give us renewed confidence, but in the event of the minister 'leaving we would willingly resume our place in tho congregation and support you so .far as in our power lies.— We are, Sir, yours faithfully. This boie 15 signatures. Mr McOaw then read the report of the conference meeting when this letter was dealt with, and called attention to Mr Gardner's answer to the question put by Mr Dunwoodia. The following were the exoractß read : — The Moderator called on ,tlie Clark of Session (Mr Robt. Gardner) to state the stops taken in pursuance of the resolution of the 20th ult. itr Gardner stated that ho wa« sorry none to whom the letter was addressed were present. They had, however, sent a communication representing all, or nearly all, tlwir number. This had been placed before the office bearers, who had deoidod, after- careful consideration that they would not read it to the congregation, aa they had no desire to inflict » punishment on them by compelling them to listen to such a reply. Another letter from an individual shaded the sanio fate —it could not be reeeivod. It was quite an unfitting uply, and tho office bearers had deoided not to have it read. Tho Moderator confirmed Mr Gardner's statameut — the letters wero of such a character that' the offico bearers had decided neither should be received. Thoy would be happy to answer any quostions. Mr Dunwoodie : Does the reply sent show that those who have left havo no desire to be united with the congregation again ? Sir Gardner : The letter decidedly shows an unwillingness on tho part of those people to havo anything to do with this church. They distinctly state that. Mr J. N. Scott enquired if the letters were so bad tbat they could not be road. The Moderator : You havo got the nnswer of tho ofllco boa^r*, Mr Soott. I oau't go beyond it.—Continuing, Air Mackay saidhe was satisfied the congregation would accept tho finding of the ofllco bearers. It would have ucon nest to an insult to them to listen to the rcplioa. Mr Gardner had put the matter very clearly, and ho (Mr Mac'.cuy) wished them distinctly to ' understand that that was tv« decision of the olHee ! bearers. Mr McOaw pointed out that the de- 1 cision not to receive the letter was carried on the motion of Messrs Smaill and Gainer. The first named, according to the practice of the church procedure, had no right to vote on the matter being a member of the committee only, and not of the session. However, he did not press this point. Mr Gardner, the Clerk of Session, then read the statement of the Committee appointed to report on the petition, etc. This pointed out that many of the signatures were obtained from [ people simply by asking, and from people who were candid enough to admit that they did not belong to a church, or care whether there was one church or half a dozen Presbyterian CLurches in Gore. It proceeded to criticise a number of the signatories individually with the objeot of proving this, and went on to point out the absurdity of* these oignatures being considered those of people whose, consciences refused to

alljow ;them to consider Mr Mackay's abilities to attend to their spiritual necessities sufficient, ground to sign the petition. It pointed out that agitation uf a somewhat similar • nature had before resulted in the Presbytery's finding ion investigation that everything was prospering satisfactorily and that there was a mere ripple on the surface and not a storm at all. -This referred to the. Presbyterial visit some 15 months ago. The statement concluded with an assurance that the Session !<?fb tin matt«rin the Presbytery's hands with every confidence that its wisdom would lead it to determine to the above effect.

Mr Mackay had a remark or two. to make, but dared nob allow himself jto speak oxtempore, so would read what he wished to say, He had of ten heard it said that some people would sign anything and had been sceptical on the point till be saw the present petition — when his scepticism vaniahd. He acknowledged that the terms employed in, and the signatures to ; the petition aeemed genuine and accurate enough at the first glance, but he proceeded to show that 1 this genuineness was only apparent, and did not exist. He first Iwelfc on the episode of the Messrs Boyne (2) and McC*w.(2) leaving; the , Sunday school one afternoon when he called .the teachers; together, ( It; was provided in the Sunday school rules that the minister should preside, at all quarterly meetings, and on this day he (Mr Mackay )called the teachers together, when these men walked out taking the minute book with them. The speaker then proceeded to individually crjticis. c a number of, the petitioners, with a view of showing that some were wives or. relations and servants. of other Big. natories to the petition, that some be* longed to other denominations or to other Presbyterian parishes in (the district, and others had never gone ,to ( the Gore church, or gone very seldom, that two had. signed presumably beoause he declined to baptize their children (because of non-attendance at worship), etc.

It ' will be 'apparent that ' it ; would be inadvisable to indicate more closely Mr- Mackay's remarks'. •■ •It may .be mentioned, however,' that he was particularly > severe in his stricturea on Messrs Mac Gibbon and Aitken, and in the case of the former was advised to withdraw &n expression relative to his astonishment at the Presbytery allowing ( this man ' (Mr Mac Gibbon) to appear before it without first apologising, as he had charged him (Mr Mackay) with being guilty of falsehood, without the Bhadow of a foundation for the statement, Mr Mackay withdrew the expression; and then

Mr Mackenzie drear attention to Mr Mackay constantly referring to Mr Mac Gibbon as 'this man.'

Mr Mackay said ' thU ' was not used in a coutemptuous sense, but merely for the purpose of avoiding the necessity for repeating the name bo often. Mr Mackenzie: Then Bay 'gentleman.' (Laughter.) Mr Mackay concluded by contending that if the petition were granted,schism would probably be caused,and he would not be anßwerable for the consequences. He denied ever having uttered the words that an increase in the attendance was due to the absence of the disaffected, and asked if he should have rejected the kindness of his people when they offered him the illuminated address ? He denied with considerable warmth the statement of Mr McCaw that the conference was not his wish, and stated that he would have been only too glad if ib had taken place. Messis John Simpson and Tumbull spoke biiefly in favor of the statement, of the Kirk session. The latter stated, that what he had said at a congregational meeting (quoted by Mr McOaw) whs not that if the. disaffected ones returned as many more would, leave, but that if Mr Maokay left many more would leave.

Mr Dunlop Baid he was sorry to aay be did not agree with the . statement read by Mr Gardner. . He was the only one that said "No I" when the report was presented. ' It was a hard thins; to find out what the Gore Kirk Session thought, or how. ttu>y, voted. This Mr Dunlop proceeded to explain in an apparently conclusive , way, and having become possessed of the. state* ment presented by Mr Gardner went over the names again, putting an entirely different statement opposite the various individuals' names. . He then commented on an alleged statement of the Eev. Andrew Mackay's that Mr Aitken had proposed the Eev. B. F. Rothwell for the presidency of the Gore Gospel Temperance Society, " ignoring and insulting his own minister." Mr Mackay was not then a member of the Gore Gospel Temperance Society, and he (the speaker) thought his statement, of the utterance of which he was poßitive, a most extraordinary and unaccountable thing. He (the speaker) drew attention *o the occurrence at the time, when Mr Maokay dropped the subject like a hot potato. Another thing about Mr Mackay that the speaker could not understand was this : he said things and gave rulings and at the time stuck to them, and after a time he forgot and would deny that he even said such a thing Mr Mackay moved .that the words be taken down. . Mr Ferguson and Mr MclCenzie en-, quired : What words 1 Mr Mackay said they ware clear enough to any intelligent man. The words last uttered, -i . . Ie was agreed that-: Mr Mackay would have to furnish the words himself, but Mr Mackay declined to do so. Mr Dunlop, continuing 1 , said he thought Mr Mackay wanted him to sit down', and he would do so. He would 3ay in conclusiou that he had a considerable amount of sympathy with the petitioners, and could certainly say that the petition was not, as Mr Gard« ner's statement had put it, uncalled for and unnecessary. He couidtx't charactarise it as that at all. After considerable discussion as to whether the Eev Mr Mackay should be allowed to speak. Mr Mackay explained that when he came to Gore ha had not been connected with the Gore Gospel Temperance

Society and' waa not even' a member j and tor the life' of him, he could noc imagine (when memberß of the Society only were appointed to its office*); 1 that it should be supposed he was insulted at not being put into office. ' On behalf of the Committee of Management, and as "Chairman of the Sustentation Fund Committee, Mr James Beattie adduced figures to show that many of those signing the petition had never been subscribers to the sustenbation fund, and that the fund was now in a better position than ever it was. " There was a little further talk, and then the, petitioners' representatives were called on to reply, which they did, Mr Mac Gibbon denying that it was true he was unable to substantiate the charge of falsehood against Mr Mackay. Mr McOaw said the best and most comprehensive reply he could give was to point out the strong antagonisticspirit which characterised Mr Mackay's statements regarding the petit* ioners. This showed quite clearly the real nature of Mr Mackay's apparent earnestness to promote harmony, and was only a notable instance 1 of what they had to put up with in Gore. In framing the petition the committee appointed ,tp do so had tried to use as' charitable a spirit as possible, while stating the truth 7 but iibt~ only had Mr Mackay in the statement he had just made aaid some very harsh things regarding the petitioners^ but statements -which if published would probably lead to greater complications, in which Mr Mackay might have to take a prominent part. He was ashamed of Mr MttcKay's remarks concerning the 'v|r ives of members, and for the petitioners he would defend (with probably one exception) everyone who had signed. Mr' Maokay in his remarks had said Mr Gdldihg was not a Presbyterian at all. How then did it come that Mr Golding received, a certificate signed by the Session Clerk testifying that* he left the church in full communion? More than that, Mr Golding for over 18 months was Mr Mackay's right hand supporter, conducting a Bible plass on the one side of jjthe pulpit, jwtiile Mr Maokay held his on the other, with the result that Mr GMding's olasa flourished and Mr Mackay's had te be discontinued After rebutting Mr Mackay's ' statements as to other indiyiduals,Mr McCaw asked how these two statements tallied. Mr Mackay at the Presbytery that morning said he was anxious and willing that the conference should have been held, yet it was said that at one of the Session meetings Mr Mackay was not jsur'e whether the disaffected ones should be allowed to return without giving some satisfactory explanation as :to why they left the church. He alao gave Mr Mackay the information that he had written and compiled the petition, which Mr Mackay in his remarks seemed to doubt. After further discussion Mr A. Fletcher's letter in reply to th© circular asking the disaffected ones to attend the conference was read. Mr Fletcher declined in somewhat peculiar terms to comply with the request^ -„ Mr Ferguson asked whatJti this letter was of a character to insult the congregation. Mr Gardner failed to see how he could be expected to answer this. Mr Dunlop had not been present when the letter was discussed. Finally, Mr Gardner said the opinion of the Session was that it would be wise , not to read the letter at the congrega- ' tional meeting, as reflections on the minister would thereby be prevented! from appearing in. print or being made! public. I Mr Simpson supported the minister, and then ■ . . ! Mr Ferguson asked for an explanation of the Sunday school business, i Mr Alexander moved the adjournment of the Presbytery for an hour—' Carried. ! On resuming, Mr McCaw explained the leaving the Sunday school had arisen in this way. The superintend dent presided at the quarterly meetings of teachers, and at one of these it was resolved to have a set of rules. These were compiled after considerable trou* ble,when,on being submitted to the Seßf sion, they, were not allowed — never even read. Some, time later rules were received from the Session, to which they were asked to agree, and under which the school was to be conducted after a certain . date. Though' these rules were inferior they were not objected to. The main difference was that the minister— not the superintend dent — should preside at quarterly meetings. One Sunday the minister camfe into the church and ordered proceedings to stop. They felt the whole procedure keenly, and went home and put in their resignations. He would not state further why he had no confidence" in Mr Mackay, as he hud no wish jo' be inveigled into a libeL case. Several long discussions took place, in the course of which Mr Dunlop said Mr Gardner sometimes seemed fright^ ened, as he had told him (Mr Dunlpp) distinctly that, he would not vote for Mr Mackay, but when the voting was taken in open meeting he voted for that gentleman. Open voting did not suit some parties, but it was; in Mr Bunlop's opinion, a very good way of taking the vote! : ■ Mr Gardner explained that, as he had previously said, he had reserved the right to do what he pleased when in the congregational meeting. ; A discussion elicited that it had been the intention of Mr Mackay to re« sign some 12 months before he sent in his resignation, but that the Session had aaked him not to do so ; but a question by Mr Wright elicited that this was not minuted — • it was a secret understanding — an open secret, however, as .many in the congregation knew of it. Mr Beattie was asked in what way the granting of the prayer of the petitioners would affect the oh urch, and replied that it would, besides drawing the publio for a time, give opportunities for dissatisfied persons going away from the old church without just cause. Some further discussion took placSi as to the illuminated address, and then

parties were removed from Che'Varj'W.i *%* Mr Ferguson moved the folio wing' l motion, which was . seconded ■by Mi 1 H' iklc Mackeozie,:—^ That the "Presbytery ] '"f meet in private in Gore and hayVi ( n! conference with the Minister, thenoffice- \ bearers, and the petitioriera > with tho . ol view of promoting harmony or ' of"; v finding out oh what ground" the' petitioners , have lost confidence in, their' ', w minister." ... '' f "'"P,^

This was met by the following amene^i' 1 ment, proposed by Mr Stobo, sad > f seconded by Mr Gordon:— "That th«)!;« Pteßbytery have taken into cohsid^rr.. "^ ation the petition from certain Prdsby- ; 'M terians resident in Gore, praying 1 for . thi supply, cf ordinances apart from^tle"'^ present cougrestatioa there,, an/^h&yiqg^ j" heard Messrs' McOawand MacGibWt oni behalf of the petitioners, and theiio Bey. Mr Mackay, Messrs j Gardner* > .; Simpson, Turhbull, and X)uhldppri f be.. ; ij half of the Kirk Session . and cbhgrie- :ni gation of Gore, also Mr ,Bea^ie |l re^ {r solve -to grant .the request in" the IkopV ',,; that a way mayisoon be foundifor Jheftl*,,,,, ink the 1 breach at present < existing/in im Gpre jbut at the same time wish the petitioners distinctly to , understand that as there is not -a case coming ujider the description of ohurph exten* Bion, they, will have to look to themselves to defray the cost of such, slip-py-as they, may receive.' . I In moving the aniendinent Mr Stftbli,, aiidlhis.was: pne 'qf" "toose casein/ 7 Which the' minister, hid not^hpwniß^i'f cient tact or aptitude for conciliating™ nieri: With 'a' man ■ that a possessed tpese qualificktions' the J br*e'aoh, whiokti atopeared now ' 16 bY gWwing I>if A anything, might be jjp»(ed eyen'"''^^ He hoped Mr M*ackay/ mighji'arrft'nie things better, but. if .he,«wi ri'iiWM" do sd the best course for him-to,ta|te )C j would be that whioh suggested itself ir o him (Mr Maokay) before^to: seek j t .nother, ' sphere: ' Hia pulpit abilities fvould make tikat ' easy of aitaihinenb^ It, was mthjgmhmiuGfwoe^tirM: k sense of duty that he moyeiTaa he,' (iid. ; ' ■ ■ ... .-, . ,'",'[ .'•,:".,,",["'"/• Mr Gordon spoke in much . the sunio , iufraSri. '" •'■•■'.! .. ... „1 :(i t ,,, b ' t shp ;;s6sfon was;' j^ttt'and clrried oi> the Moderkfcor'a caatin^ vdte,'aQd»ft^> parties had, been called and acquioioW in the decision, - . . . . . . .[ Jr ,' : ' ' ■ The Presbytery .irentoni wi^'pSier jbusineas, it beings understood that" it ;would.next meet in the Gore church on iWediiesday, 21st iriifc., at .VjUQljtiUit?,