PARLIAMENTARY.

Lyttelton Times, Volume LXXX, Issue 10106, 3 August 1893, Page 6

PARLIAMENTARY.

(Per Passs Association,] LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wednesday, August 2. AFTERNOON SITTING. The Council mat at 2.30. OTAGO HARBOUR BOARD. The Hon J. M’Gbegof, moved the second reading of the Otago Harbour Board Empowering Bill, which originated in the House. Tho Hon E. Richardson objected to Clause 5, which provides that all moneys received by the Board upon any sales shall he applied by the Board as part of its ordinary revenue. He thought that these moneys should be applied to the liquidation of liabilities Sir G. S, Whitmore supported the objection. Tho Bill should be closely scrutinised by tho Council. The Hon R. Pharazyn objected to the Bill being foisted on tho Council as a public Bill, as really it was a local Bill. The Hon G. M’Lean remarked that the Bill was undoubtedly a local Bill, notwithstanding the fact that the Joint Committee on Bills had said it was a public Bill. He objected to Clause 5, and should like to see the Bill referred to a Select Committee. ; Tho Hon J. M’Gregor ridiculed the objection to Clause 5, that the rights of land-owners would be interfered with if the clause were retained. He would offer no objection to the Bill being referred to a Select Committee. The second reading was agreed to. The Hon 0. E, Sheimski gave notice that tho Bill be referred to a Select Committee. FIRST READINGS. The following Bills were read a first time County Act Bill and Ward Conservation of Eights Bill. mangawhai harbour. The Mangawhai Harbour Endowment Reserves Bill was read a second time, and referred to the Waste Lands Committee. PAYMENT OP MEMBERS. The Colonial Secretary moved that tho amendments of tho Governor in the Payment of Members Bill, providing for fines on members for ,absence from both Houses of Legislature, ho agreed to. The fines for members of toe Council amount to 23s per day, and to 40s for members of the House. Agreed to. . ■ magistrates’ courts. ' ; The.Magistrates’ Courts Bill was further considered in Committee.. ! Ou new Clause 155, - Tho Hon C. C. Bowen moved an amendment giving the right of appeal to the Supremo Court on points of law where the claim does not exceed £2O; secondly, on matters of fact where the amount exceeds £3O. The Hon J. M’Gregob contended that too amendment if agreed to would lead to increased litigation. The amendment was agreed to by 14 to 12. Several other now clauses proposed by too joint Statutes Revision Committee were agreed to, and tho Bill as amended was reported. TIMBER FLOATING. The Timber Floating Amendment Bill was further considered in Committee. Progress was reported, and the Bill referred to the Waste Lands Committee. Tho Council adjourned till next day. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. AFTERNOON SITTING. The House met at 3.30. QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr Alien, The Son J. M’Kenzu; said tho Dairy Industry Act, 1893, was giving pretty general satisfaction at present, and he thought they had better wait to see how it worked before they amended it, cr altered tho method of grading and marking cheese.

Replying to Mr Pinkerton, whether the Government would place -CISOO on the Supplementary Estimates to enable the Dunedin Hospital Trustees to pay off the liability incurred in building the new wing to the Dunedin Hospital.

The Hon W. P. Serves laid ho should ask tho honorable gentlemen to wait till the Public Works Estimates were brought down.

Replying to Mr Allen, whether the Mr Williams to whom a large sum of money has been paid for serviced in connection with the West Coast Settlements Act of last year, is the same peison who was charged with defrauding Natives of some £3OOO, purchase money of the Ivaitangiwhenua block. The Hon J. G. Ward said he was, but that Sir H. Atkinson had appointed him a Native interpreter at a period before the charge wao preferred against him. Mr Fergus moved the adjournment of the House, and protested against the reflection made by Mr Ward on Sir H. Atkinson ia this , matter.. Mr Williams, who was one of the beat interpreters ia the Colony, had been merely licensed by Sir H. Atkinson to act aa an interpreter.

Tha Hon J. G. Ward denied that he had made any reflection on Sir H. Atkinson, or had intended to do eo. Considerable discussion followed, in the course of which several members urged that enquiry should be made into she whole circumstances, and that, if necessary, Mr Williams’ license should be cancelled. ilia Hon E. J. Seddon said tha first thing asked before a person was appointed a Native interpreter was whether or not he waa of good character.'

Mr Allen said these transactions ia regard to Native affairs were a scandal to tha country. Sir E. Stout pointed out that Mr Williams had not been appointed either by tha Government or the Trust Office, but by a large number of Natives who thought they had been annoyed by the Public Trustee. He was an agent for the Natives, and attended meetings of the Joint Committee of tha House as their agent. Ho (Sic E. Stout) supposed that Mr Williams had been. paid money for getting the signatures of Natives for the Public Trustee. As to the charge against Williams of defrauding Natives, he knew nothing about that, and he should not like to hear members speak of a subject of which they knew nothing.

Dr Newman declared that Mr Williams had acted as the agent of the Public Trustee, and said his appointment had been a crying scandal to the people of the district. Mr E. M. Smite defended Mr Williams from the attacks made upon him, and said that any money that was paid him was for obtaining signatures and work done for the Natives. After further debate the motion for adjournment was lost. Replying to Mr Duthie,

The Eon 11. J. Seduon said a positive order tor the shipment of Martini-Henry rifles for Jl.'ile Associations was sent Homo bn Match 24, 1892, and a promise was mads that they would arrive in the Colony by March, 1898; ■ He regretted that they had not yet been received. CO-OI’EE ATIVE AVOBE3. Jit Fxsrt moved that a return bo laid tek r-j the House of all moneys and expense incurred for plant for co-operative works throughout the Colony, the carriage or freight; of same paid or due, ako all ir i,veiling charges or other expenses (not wages) incurred on those works; also a return showing the number and rank of all those engaged on those works (above workmen) and their salaries or' wages, travelling allowances, and tbo number of men each inspector is ia charge of’; also tbo total coot, exclusive of labourers’ wages. He said ha regretted that tbo Government had opposed this return, and if Minu Lars used their majority to defeat it, it was evident that they wore afraid to eupply the information asked for, and it would also show that every charge made against the Government respecting the co-operative system was true. The Hon E. J. Ssddon said this return would be a very expensive one, and it was c.Uo moat unfair, as certain charges were deducted from the re on for the use of plant. Ho had no objection whatever to give the fullest information on this system, and ho should agree to the motion if Mr Fish

added to it, “ also all amounts estimated and deducted for use of plant.” Mr Fish agreed to this, and after a lengthy discussion on the working of the co-operative system, the motion as amended was agreed to. INDUSTRIES AND MANUB'ACTURBB. The Hon W. P. Reeves moved that the name of Mr Carncross be added to the Industries and Manufactures Committee, and the name of Mr J. Mills to the Labour Bills Committee. Agreed to. THE BALMSR.REVELL CASE. Mr Fish moved that there be laid before toe House a copy of the evidence taken, and the report of the Inspector of Lunatic Asylums in the celebrated Jackson Paimer-ctijß-Eevell inquiry, together with tho terms of the apology made by Mr Eevell to the member for Waitemata. After some discussion, Mr Fish withdrew the motion. BANKING. Mr Taylor moved—“ That the time has arrived when the interests of the people demand that toe Government shall take the necessary steps to obtain all available information with reference to the management and functions of soma of the leading banking institutions of the world, say the Bank of Franca, the Bank of England, the department of paper currency of India and others, in order that toe Government may prepare and bring in a State Bank Bill embodying the principle of the Colony guaranteeing all depositora and others doing business with the Bank against loss of any kind whatever.” Mr Buckland thought this too large a question to bo dealt with in this manner. He objected altogether to anything approaching a -State Bank. (He was speaking at the 5.30 adjournment.) EVENING SITTING. Tho House resumed at 7.80, LICENSING ACT AMENDMENT. On the first Older of toe Day being called on (the Licensing Act Amendment Bill), Mr Buckland rose to a point of order. He contended that tho present Bill, introduced by Sir R, Stout, was substantially tho same as the Direct Veto Bill introduced early in the session, and he submitted that two Bills to the same effect could not be introduced in. the same session. If this Bill were passed, he submitted that the Direct Veto Bill could not bo brought on this session, as one of the Bills proposed to prevent the sale of liquor, and .the other one to close public-houses. : The Speaker .said he had looked at this, matter carefully, and he, found; that where two Bills ’proposed ‘to effect the ■ same object, 'but in different ways, they were virtually separate Bills, and were in no way identical. He therefore ruled that Sir E. Stout was quite in order in moving the second reading cf thepreaent Bill. As to the second point raised by Mr Buckland, that of the Direct Veto Bill, he said that question had not yet arisen. When that Bill was reached he should bo prepared to rule on it.

Sir E. Stout then moved the second reading of the Licensing Act Amendment Bill. He said it needed no apology from him to bring in such a measure, as it was creating a large amount of interest all over the world at present. The Bill waa really a very slight alteration of the existing law. It did not propose any new principle. The present law gave the people power periodically to settle the question of the number of licenses in particular districts. The Bill proposed to insert two additional questions, namely, shall licenses be granted, and shall licenses be reduced ? That was the only addition to the present law made in this Bill, which was eo simple that ho hoped the House would pass it without much debate. He asked the House whether it wished this question to be a test one during the coming elections. He held that it was to the interests of good government if they removed this burning question from politics and relegated it to the people This great question had to be met, and if it were not met in the simple form he proposed, it would probably have to be met in a more unpalatable form. The question would have to be decided on the majority alone, and he warned the opponents of this Bill that if they did.“nob accept the reform he proposed, they would have to face cne of a more drastic character. In moving in this matter he did not wish to say a single word against those who were engaged in the liquor traffic, many of whom were bind and humane men, but the question had to ba seriously faced. It was at present a great blot on humanity, and humanity required that the blot should ba removed. The question appealed to all their highest ir,2tiacis,,and to the highest morality. Did honourable members know what misery was caused by drink, and how many deaths resulted from it? There was no doubt that it was the social curse of the age. There was hardly a family in the Colony that Could say that none of that family had been ruined through drink. Total abstainers might probably look at this question from a narrow point of view, but why should stones be cast at them as the? were striving to effect a great reform ? This waa surely a question that should ba raised above party, and each one should ask himself what he could do to help on this great reform. If they did so, he felt sure that the Bill would be carried by a good majority. Mr Saundees seconded the motion, and said the Licensing question waa always a difficult one to deal with. He held that the present Licensing Act had been a great step in advance, but had not done as much as it might have done, owing to the apathy of the temperance people themselves. He hoped they ivould succeed in making some reform id the liquor traffic, and he thought the present Bill was a large amendment in that direction. He hoped the Bill would receive the attention which it deserved, and that they would do something to keep temptation out of the way of those who required such protection. Mr Pea see thought the present Bill waa not one that the Temperance Party expected. All the petitions that had been presented to the House were in favour of a Direct Veto Bill, and not the present Bill at all; and it appeared to him as if the promoters of this Bill ware shirking the question. Even a high priest of temperance, the Eev E. Walker, had informed a member of the House yesterday that Sir E. Stout’s Bill was not what they wanted. They wished to go to the country on the question of veto or no veto. There was also not a word in this Bill inspecting compensation, and he hold that justice should be done to the publican as well as to any other member of the community. Sir E. Stout had told them the other night that they should do everything to make the Government finance strong, but he now by this Bill proposed to sweep away nearly half a million of revenue from the Government, besides tiking about J 260,172 of revenue from the local bodies.

The Hon E. J. Sunnon said they would all admit that this question was agitating the public mind at present, and he agreed with Sir E. Stout that the subject would have to be dealt with. It was even more important than woman's suffrage. Thu country should, however, understand that the Bill before the House was not a Direct Veto Bill. It was the same in principle, but differed greatly iu details, and he thought many in the House would be prepared to eupport the present Bill, although they would not support the direct veto. Eeferring to the deputation that waited on him, he had told them he wished to consult his colleagues before elating the decision of the Government. Shortly afterwards a deputation of brewers and others engaged in the trade waited on him, to whom he gave the same reply. The Government had given no pledges to either deputation. It asked that the debate on this question should be fair and full, and that the forms of the House should not be used against the Bill. diter the debate was finished, if it was the desire of the House that the Government should deal with the Bill, it would do bo. Ha did not wish to convey that the Government would carry this Bill through the House, but if the decision of the House was such as ha had indicated, the Government hoped to be able to carry a measure that would be fair and reasonable, and that would give satisfaction to all.

He did not think it would be wise or possible to attempt to please the extremists of either side, and tho present Bill was a modification of the Direct Veto Bill. He should vote for the second reading of the Bill.

Mr Bruce said the Premier’s speech convinced him that the Government of which he was the head was not prepared to take the lead in this question. He was not an extremist either way, but at the same time he would be prepared fora little seif-sacrifice to save bis follow-man from going into the gutter. Although he intended to vote for the second reading of this Bill, he could not agree that the question should he referred solely to the electors. He also could not agree with the proposal that the question should be decided by a bare majority, and thought that a two-thirds majority would be preferable. He did not think the question of compensation should he railed in the present Bill at all. Mr W. Hutchison supported the Bill, and said it was the business of the people to grant licenses or refuse them. He was prepared to trust the people, and felt sure that the trust would be rightly exercised.

The Hon W. P. Reeves said he felt himself in an awkward position, inasmuch as he should have to vote in the opposite lobby to hia chief. With the greater part of the Bill, however, he agreed; but at the last election he was pledged to support the existing law during the present Parliament. He was bound, therefore, as a matter of honour, to vote against this Bill, and he should do so. The Premier had stated the views of the Government on this matter. If the House decided that the question must be dealt with this session, theQovernment would be prepared to take it up. The Bill was not, except in one part, revolutionary, but it was a decided measure of reform. It contained one most important principle, namely, direct veto by a bare majority. He was not able to support the direct veto by a bare majority without compensation, and although he approved of many features of the present Bill, he should vote against it in order to fulfil the pledge he gave to his constituents. He doubted whether a majority of the House believed that prohibition was practicable. He did not think it was either practicable or desirable. What they wanted was a middle course, a certain measure of reform. Was alcohol the only thing that did harm to the community ? Why, medical men asserted that tobacco was more harmful, and he himself believed that gambling did more harm than alcohol. If they put down gambling by prohibition, they must also put down placing cards in hdusea. He believed that the common sense of the Colony was in favour of regulating and not prohibition. Mr laitt stated that his party did not want regulation of the liquor traffic, but absolute prohibition; but he (Mr Reeves) did' not think a majority of the House was in favour of prohibition, although ■it was in favour of judicious reform. Referring to the old Licensing Act, he thought it was an excellent measure if it were properly interpreted. The people in exercising such extraordinary power of veto ought to be prepared to proceed slowly, and not inflict injury on many people without due consideration. They should see that there was a sure safeguard provided, so that such a large confiscation ot property as might take place under the Sill would not be effected in a single hoar by a bare majority. He would be prepared to give the direct veto a substantial but not an impossible majority. Mr Tatlok had promised his constituents that he would support a Bill of this kind, and he would stand by that pledge. Mr WiiiLia would vote for the second reading cf the Bill if an alteration were made in the direction of compensation. The Hon R. J. Seduon explained that he had not said that if the second reading cf the Bill were carried the Government would taka up the measure. That was not the intention of the Government, and he had nob stated that. What he had said was that the Government would in that case deal with the Bill as it thought beat, Mr Fish said he could not often compliment the Minister for Labour on his utterances, bub he must say that the speech just delivered by Mr Reeves was a masterly exposition of the licensing laws. It was highly amusing to hear member after member compliment Sir R. Stout on his eloquent speeches, but those who know the member for Inangahua as ha knew him, would admit that in nine cases out of ten that hon gentleman merely appealed to the sentiments of his hearers, and scarcely ever to their common sense. He asserted that no class of the community was more desirous for moderate reform than the brewers and hotel-keepers of the Colony, but the present Bill must really be regarded as a Local Veto Bill. He objected to the Bill on eleven different grounds, namely—-That the people had not asked for it, nor had they any, opportunity of expressing an opinion on the subject; that the Bill did not provide for compensation ; that it did not apply compulsorily to the whole Colony; that it was attempted to carry it; provisions by rueena of a hare majority ; that if the Bill were carried, its effect would be disastrous to Colonial and local finance; that any such momentous change in the law should be brought down by the Government; that if it were the will of any considerable majority of the electors that the sale of liquors should be stopped, it should be enacted that no liquors should be imported into the Colony or manufactured here; that compulsory or repressive legislation of this character was inimical to the beat interests of the community, and destructive of those principles of liberty inherent in the English race; that the enactment of such a law as this would encourage sly-grog selling; that no provision was made for preventing the sale of liquor in Clubs, which would therefore largely increase in number, and, lastly, that the Bill was unjust and unfair to the working classes, affecting them whilst it would not affect the wealthy. (Mr Fish was still speaking when the telegraph office closed at 2 a.m.)