PARLIAMENTARY.

Lyttelton Times, Volume LXVI, Issue 7926, 31 July 1886, Page 5

PARLIAMENTARY.

[Pes Pbkss Association.] LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Friday, July 30. The Speaker said, speaking on the Gold Duty Reduction Bill, that the full title of the Bill rejected by the Council was " An Act to Abolish the Export Duty on Gold by Gradual Reduction." The full title of the Bill now presented for the second reading is " An Act to Reduce the Export Duty on Gold for a Limited Period." Standing Order No. 131 reads as follows : " When a Bill or motion shall have been rejected by the Council, no Bill or motion of the same argument or matter, or to effect the same object, shall be brought forward during the same session." The Council, in my opinion, cannot entertain the Bill now called on for the second reading without violating Standing Order No. 131. The Bill is accordingly laid aside on the Orders of the Day, that the Government Loans to Local Bodies' Bill may be read a third time. The Hon Sir P. Whitakee remarked that the ruling of the Speaker with regard to Clause 36 had created a difficulty, inasmuch as his ruling said the Bill, being a money Bill, could not be amended by the Council. By leave of the Council he moved —" That the Bill be laid aside." The Speaker agreed with the motion of the Hon Sir F. Whitaker that by the leave of the Council he could direct that the Bill be laid aside. This procedure was, he considered, a more simple method than moving a formal resolution. The Speaker directed accordingly. The Native Lands Administration Bill and Native Courts Bill were a third time and passed. The Otago Harbour Bridge Bill was read a second time. The third readings of the Counties Bill, First Offenders Probation Bill, and Sheep Act Amendment Bill were agreed to, and the Bills passed. The Civil Service Reform Bill was further considered in Committee. On Clause 4, referring to the appointments of cadets, a discussion ensued, resulting in progress being reported, leave being given to sit again. The Mortgage Debentures Bill was read a third time and passed. The Public Bodies' Leasing Bill -and Administration Act Amendment Bill were received from the House and read a first time. The Port Chalmers Fire Brigade Site Bill, Otago Harbour Board Leasing Bill, Auckland Harbour Board Loan Bill, City of Christchurch Municipal Offices Bill, and Oamaru Harbour Board Loan Bill were further considered in Committte, progress being reported in each case. , The Council, at 5, adjourned till Monday next. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday, July 30. AFTERNOON SITTING. The House met at 2.30. bill passes. The Cathedral Site (Parnell) Leasing Bill was read a third time and passed. report. Mr Moss brought up the report of the Public Works Committeeon the purchase of Mr Starks' property at North Shore, Auckland, for defence purposes, to the effect that Government were justified in paying the price they did, and that the weight of evidence went to show that the property could. not have been obtained for a less amount in the Compensation Court. Mr Moss said that, as Chairman of the Committee, he had no vote, but had he been in a position to vote, he should have done so with the minority. Major Atkinson wished to make a personal explanation on this matter. He said I that one of the members of the Committee (Mr Holmes) had met with a serious accident, and being very anxious to vote on this question, he (Major Atkinson) had what is known as " paired" with that hon gentleman in order to allow him to vote. It was well known that Mr Holmes took an opposite view of the matter under consideration to that held by him (Major Atkinson), so that if he had not paired with Mr Holmes the decision of the Committee would have been reversed, there being seven on each side, two of those voting in the minority being Ministers of the Crown. The report was then ordered to be printed. QUESTIONS. Dr Newman asked the Government whether any, and, if tany, how much land lias been given for the track of the. North Island Main Trunk Railway (1) by Wahanui, (2) by other Maoris. The Hon J. Ballance replied that no land had been given by Wahanui or other Maoris at present. Mr Moss asked the Minister of Justice what provision is made in the special regulation for an unconvicted prisoner in accordance with section 14 of " The Prisons Act, 1882." The Hon J. A. Tolb said the provision would be found in the Gazette of. April, 1883. Mr Guinness asked whether it was true that the Government had issued instructions that in the future all the labourers in the employ of the Government were to receive only 6a per day. The Hon E. Richardson said it had been brought under his notice that men were offering in large numbers to go to work for 5s per day, and he had given instructions that any men employed in the future should not receive more than 6s. Mr Wilson asked whether the circular contained nothing about unskilled labour. The Hon E. Richardson said it applied to unskilled labour. in committee. The Hospitals and Charitable Institutions Bill was further considered in Committee. The Hon Sir R. Stout said the only amendment as to districts that he would agree to was to constitute Auckland, north of Auckland and Waikato into one Hospital District. He could not agree to the amendment respecting Nelson, Buller and Inangahua districts. Mr Levestam moved an amendment—- " That Nelson, Buller and Inangahua be inserted." Agreed to. Mr Daroaville moved an amendment to add—" Counties of Whangarei, Hobson, and Otatnatea to North of Auckland." Mr Hobbs strongly opposed the amendment, stating that he had received telegrams from the Chairman of the Board in Auckland, and from the Chairman of the Mongonui and Hokianga County Councils, and representatives of the Bay of Islands County, strongly objecting to these Counties being attached or joined to the North of Auckland district. The representatives of these districts did not assist last year in getting a separate district, and now they wanted to come in and reap the benefit. He did not see what the member for Auckland City West had to do with the question. He was not a member for the district, and had not been requested by the local bodies to move in the matter, and he hoped the House would not sanction this proposal. The amendment was carried by 45 to 13. Mr Whyte moved an amendment to strike out "Piako" from Thames district. Mr Fraser opposed the amendment, which was lost by 34 to 33. The Hon Sir R. Stout suggested that those members who had further sub-divi-sions to propose would now drop them. Mr Buchanan moved an amendment to separate Wairarapa from Wellington. The Hon Sir R. Stout hoped the Corn-

mittee would not agree"|to" [the amendment.

Lost by 34 to 29. Mr Walker moved—?'That Ashburtori be separated from Christchurch." The Hon" Sir R. Stout hoped the House would be consistent and reject this amendment in the same manner as the Piako and Wairarapa districts had been rejected. He would ask the Committee to give a decisive vote on this, in order to prevent further amendments of this kind being moved. Lost by 30 to 28. Mr W. J. Steward moved to separate Waimate from South Canterbury. Lost by 36 to 10. The Bill was reported with amendments, which were ordered to be considered next sitting day. The Hon Sir R. Stoot moved—" That the House at its rising adjourn to 2.30 on Monday." Agreed to. The Beer Duty Amendment Act was further considered in Committee, and reported with amendments. The Hon Sir J. Vogel moved —"That the Bill be re-committed for the consideration of anew clause, and there-considera-tion of Clause 6." Mr Buchanan opposed there-committal, and was speaking at the 5.30 adjournment. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. The debate on the re-committal of the Beer Duty Amendment Bill was continued, the clause to be re-considered beinerthat no business but brewing is to be carried on in a brewery. Mr Dodson supported the re-committal. He said Clause 6 would not injury anybody. Mr Russell opposed the Bill being recommitted. He pointed out that if this clause passed, it would be fatal to the enterprise of the small brewers. Colonel Trimble also opposed. He said if the Government persisted in bringing in j Bills of this nature at such a late stage of the session, the business of the House would be greatly impeded. Several other members spoke for and against the re-committal. The Hon Sir J. Vogel said he should not I press the consideration of the sixth clause on that occasion, but he would ask the House to go into Committee on the Bill, for the purpose of the consideration of Clause 7, the Commissioner may direct the Revenue Collector to refuse licenses, which he desired should not be made retrospective. The House then went into Committee on the Bill, and Clause 7 was amended so aB to provide that a license may be refused to any brewer who shall be convicted of any offence under the Act. Progress was then reported on the Bill. The Deceased Persons Estates Duties Amendment Bill was re-committed, for the consideration of a new clause. A new clause was added tc the Bill providing that the duty shall not be retrospective. The Bill was read a third time and passed. A message was received from the Governor recommending that the sum of £175,000 should be added to the schedule of the Loan Bill and appropriated to railways in the Middle Island. loan bill The New Zealand Loan Bill was further considered in Committee. Mr Rolleston asked whether the proceedings in Committee on this Bill could be reported. If this practice of reporting Committee work were initiated, the discussion wouLl hf greatly protracted. Mr Wakefield »upported the proposal to report the proueediogs in Hansard. He said the Government had adopted an altogether new.departure in regard to this Bill. He protested against burking discussion on an important Bill like the Loan Bill. " . ■ ? ' The Hon Sir R. Stout said if the Committee's discussion on this Bill were reported, where was theline to be drawn. Major Atkinson said all matters should be reported that dealt with taxation. The Hon Sir*R. Stout denied that it dealt with taxation. He, personally, was indifferent whether it was reported or not, but he hoped the Committee would come to some decision on it. Major Atkinson moved to report progress, in order that he might move in the House that proceedings be reported. Lost by 37 to 33. The question / was then put, that £175,000 be appropriated to railways in the Middle Island. Major Atkinson hoped the Government would condescend to give some explanation of this proposition. He complained that the Treasurer was setting the North against the South in this matter. The Premier had broken every pledge he had given to the House by this proposal. If the Minister of Public Workß would now state that he could spend this money properly he would cordially support it. The Hon Sir R. Stout said the House should be thankful to Government for not having appropriated the money. If the money were not appropriated it could not be spent. He believed it would be quite unusual to go into the London market for £1,250,000, and the £175,000 could be held over if necessary till next year. The reason why it was proposed to appropriate £175,000 for the Middle Island railways was because the Middle Island railways were struck out of the schedule. Major Atkinson asked what they were, borrowing for. Was it to keep money in the Treasury ? The Premier had distinctly informed the House that he would be no party to borrowing for any but reproductive works. He had also said that this sum of £175,000 was to be kept over, therefore they must assume that the money was not required for any works in the Middle Island. If the Government proposed to apportion this money to the purchase of land in the North Island, he should vote for it, or if they intended it for the Otago Central, or some other large work, he should also support it. He contended, however, that the House should be informed what was proposed to be done with this £175,000. The Hon Sir R. Stout said this money was to be kept for future appropriation. If the Government put down this amount for certain lines they would be met with the objection that the money was voted for these lines and not spent. He said the position they had taken up was one of true economy. The Government had to consider the necessities of the Colony in forming their schedule, and it was in the interests of economy that these moneys should not be allotted. Mr Sutter believed that this money would after all be devoted to the two railway lines they had already struck out of the schedule, and that when they met next year they would be committed to those | new lines. Mr Montgomery said he had always understood that the money was to be borrowed for a particular work, and now the sum of £175,000 was to be borrowed for works of which they knew nothing. Besides they should think of the power which this would place in the hands of the Ministry if they could spend this money as they pleased. Mr Peacock pointed out that the expenditure of the money for the purchase of Native land in the North Island should not be regarded as solely for the benefit of the North. It really was a Colonial object, and he protested against the Premier's remarks on this matter. Mr Daroaville objected that this money was to be devoted to the South Island only. Mr W. F. Bockland said they had had a distinct pledge that this money should be allocated for a definite work, and he contended that they should now have that assurance from the Government. After further discussion, MrTuRNBULL asked, whether he would

be in order in moving—" That £75,000 of this sum should be devoted to the North Island and £IOO,OOO to the South Island." The Chairman said the message sent down by the Governor could not be altered. It could either be reduced or rejected by the Committee. '.* Mr Hursthouse said he had voted for the reduction in the schedule on the distinct assurance from the Premier that if any reductions were made they would be deducted from the amount of loan to be raised. He contended that the Premier had lowered himself in the eyes of the country by the position he had now taken up over this £175,000. No doubt it was owing to the influence of the Colonial Treasurer; but the Premier and Treasurer should settle their differences in the Cabinet, and not on the floor of the Assembly. Mr Samuel deprecated the amount of party spirit that was being imported into the discussion. He contended that the Premier's argument that they could not go into the money market for a loan for odd numbers fell to the ground altogether, as it frequently happened in other Colonies that loans were raised in odd numbers. He could not therefore see why they should borrow more than the amount voted by the House. Mr Beyce said that if anything occurred to shake the faith of the House in the word of a Minister, pledged to the House, it would be a greater misfortane than borrowing £175,000. The Hon Sir J. Vogel quoted from the New Zealand Times' and Press Association's report of his speech to the effect that what he had stated was that the amount of the schedule would be the amount of the loan. He admitted the correctness of this report, which exactly represented what he had stated when speaking on the matter. j Colonel Teimble said that all the newspapers in the Colony would not;alter the facts of the case. . Mr Reid intended to vote against the ! insertion of this amount on the schedule. He said the Treasurer distinctly stated that Clause 3 would be. filled up with the amount of the schedule. He was indifferent as to which Island got the money, but let it be allocated the same as other lines in the Bill, as it was a dangerous principle to vote money without its being allocated. Mr Ormond said the Treasurer had promised that the amount in Clause 3 should be the amount of the schedule, but he qualified that by stating that a definite proposal would be made. He thought it was an unjustifiable thing for the Government to vote money without stating what it was to be spent on. If the Government had told the House that this money was required for reproductive works, he thought the Houbo would at once have voted for it. He took exception to several of the lines in the schedule, and thought they were not warranted, and would not be reproductive for many years. Mr Fulton said that these denials and recriminations showed the necessity for reporting a discussion of this kind in Committee. The Hon Sir J. Vogel said the question of breach of faith had been shown to be entirely fallacious, although certain numbers had not had the grace to apologise for their statements when the House threw out the items for new railways a night or two ago. The Government said they would reserve those items for allocation on a future occasion. He wished to point out that if the House knocked off this £175,000 from the loan, it would seriously affect the finance, not only of this year, but of next year. All the other Colonies were in the habit of borrowing in excess of their wants. If the House refused the Government this vote of £175,000, and.undertook the responsibility of refusing this sum for allocation on a future occasion, the Government would accept it, and would alter the schedule in order to dispose of the Bill. Major Atkinson was glad to hear that the Government took that view of the matter, but the House had no responsibility at all in connection with it. If the Treasurer had made that statement at an earlier stage, it would have greatly simplified matters. Mr Whyte thought Major Atkinson should not be surprised at the Treasurer wishing to throw the responsibility on the Committee, as he had no doubt that if the Committee rejected this vote for £175,000 (and he thought there was every likelihood of it), the members of the Government would make every possible use of it during the recess, in the same manner as they had made capital out of Captain Russell's motion of last year. Mr Babbon said he had consistently opposed the borrowing policy, but if they were to borrow money at all let them do so for works that would be reproductive, and not allow the money to remain in the Treasury. The motion for the addition of £175,000 on the schedule was then put. Lost by 34 to 32. The following is the Division List. Ayes: 82. Messrs Ballance Messrs Levestam Bevan MK'enzie, J. Cadman' M'Millan Cowan Menteath Dargaville O'Callaghan Duncan Pratt Fraser Reese Gore ' Eichardson,E Green Seddon Guinness Steward Hatch Sir R. Stout Ivess Messrs Taylor Joyce Tole Kerr Turnbull Lance Sir J. Vogel Larnach Mr Walker Noes : 34. Messrs Atkinson Messrs Moat Barron Montgomery Beetham Moss Bruce Newman Bryce Ormond Buchanan Peacock Buckland,W. P. Reid Conolly Richardson.G Dodson Rolleston Fulton Samuel Hakuene Stewart Hobbs Sutter Lake Thompson, T. Locke Thomson, J. Macarthur Trimble Mackenzie, S. Whyte Mitchelson Wilson Pairs : fob. against. Messrs Macandrew Messrs Johnston Harper Russell Smith Sir G. Grey Wi Pere Messrs Fisher O'Conor Hurathouse Ross Hislop Holmes Hirst, H. Bradshaw Wakefield Brown Buckland, J. Coster Hurst, W. J. The schedule as amended (with £175,000 struck off) was then passed, and the Bill re-committed for the further consideration of Clause 3. Clause 3 was then amended, so as to prove that £1,375,000 should be authorised for certain purposes, instead of £1,150,000. The Hon Sir J. Vogel simply desired to say that the vote just given would have a very serious effect on the finance of the Colony. Major Atkinson asked why it was that the striking out of those items would have such a serious effect. The Hon Sir J. Vogel said that a reduction would contract the expenditure, unless the loan was for next year. Major: Atkinson said they were told a different tale by the Premier, nsmely, that this money was not required for expenditure, and *as only required forthe surveys of those lines. They were, in fact, told three different versions by the Government, and they were at a loss what to believe. The whole thing was ridiculous. How could they meet seriously the proposi-

tions of Government - when they were blown about by every wind in this manner, He regretted to say that very soon they would be unable to accept anything from Government with respect to their finance. Mr Whyte said Government could have carried his vote if they pleased, in the same manner as it had been shown they could have defeated Captain Russell's motion of last year. He ventured to say that in future the motion just put would be used by the members as an argument against constructing works of the kind. Mr Tubnbull said the hon gentleman was quite right. The argument would be used by Ministers, and with good reason, as the condition of the. Colony was in too serious a condition at present not to require all the help thati could be given to it. Mr Hatch said the Government could have carried through the proposal if they; had allocated the sum to specified work. It had gone against his conscience to vote with the Government in the last division, as he understood they had distinctly stated j that if an amount was struck off the i schedule it would be taken off. j Mr Menteath said the leader of the Opposition knew perfectly well that the \ Government could not allocate this portiou of the loan which had been previously territorially allocated without losing a large section of their support. Mr Moss said the threat just made by the Treasurer that the striking out of this money would result so disastrously to the finance of the Colony was treating the members of the House more like children than reasonable men. Dr Newman considered the statement of' the Treasurer that this vote would seriously disarrange finance, was to make a, grow-mis-statement of facts. If Government came down with a proper allocation of money it would be voted. Mr Reid contended that Government could not consistently say the action of the Opposition had embarrassed them. By his vote just given he had voted not in antagonism to Government, but because a Bill was brought in professedly earmarking particular works, and then another proposal was brought in to nullify it. The Hon Sir R. Stout thought it was a strange position to take up, that members should demand that the amount of £175,000 should be allocated, when, in former years, millions of money had been voted without allocation. He thought those members who had been opposing this vote had put their foot in it, especially the member for Bruce (Mr Reid). Mr Downie Stewart regretted that the schedule had not been further reduced, as he recognised that our public works had outrun the population. He regretted that a "whole night had been wasted over this question, especially when it might have been so easily averted. He considered that if borrowing went on as it had been, the future of the Colony would not be a happy one, and he pointed out that the Colony was not inspiring that confidence amongst those whom it was desirable to introduce into it that it should. Mr Levestam pointed out that Major Atkinson had given pledges to carry out certain works that he had not carried out. Referring to the Opposition threat to throw out another portion of the Loan Bill, he (Mr Levestam) said if he were in the Government, he would, have encouraged them to do it, and, when the proper time came, he intended calling for a division, to see who were sincere in this matter. [Left sitting.] SYNOPSIS. Passed. —Cathedral Site (Parnell) Leasing Bill. Deceased Persons' Estates Duties Amendment Bill. In Committee.—The Hospitals and Charitable Institutions Bill. Beer Duty Amendment Bill. Loan Bill.