PRESBYTERIAN MEETING, KAIAPOI.

Lyttelton Times, Volume LIII, Issue 5949, 20 March 1880, Page 3

PRESBYTERIAN MEETING, KAIAPOI.

■ A meeting of the members and adherents of this church was held in the Presbyterian Church, Kaiapoi, on Thursday, for the, purpose' of considering matters; in dispute between the pastor, the Bev W. M'Gregor, and the members. The Bevs Horner, Hill, and Douglas attended from, the General Presbytery. The Bev W. Horner presided. There was a good attendance, about 90 being present, a fair proportion of whom were ladies. The proceedings were opened by those present, singing, the 100th psalm, after which the rev Chairman offered up a short and appropriate extempore prayer; He then expressed his pleasure in seeing so large an attendance, which he hoped augured Well for the welfare of the church in thetown, and he trusted that the true interests of the church would be studied that evening. He then read the minute referring to the Kaiapoi dispute, which has already appeared in the columns of this journal in the report of the meeting of the Presbytery of Christchurch. The Bev G. Douglas, at the request of the Chairman, rose to explain matters generally in reference to the action taken by the Presbytery. He said that from the evidence, before them they saw no reason for granting the prayer of the requisitionists, viz,, Hr H'Gregor’o instant dismissal, Mr Young thought the word “dismissal” should not have been used, as “removed” was the one intended.

The Bev Douglas said, in the first place, the prayer of the requisitionists could not possibly have been granted without due in.quiry having first been made. The deputation had been fully examined, but the Presbytery did not consider them to be the congregation, but only a section of it, and they wished to get the general opinion of the whole congregation. He thought the matter should begone very carefully into before any definite action was taken. He had always bean, and hoped always to be, friendly with Mr M'Gregor. As far as he could see, the facts are as followsl. The congregation was in good heart and financial position until the commencement of this strife, and until the beginning of January the collections were as good as ever, but since that time they had fallen off, at which time party feeling had found vent in expression. 2. The falling off in the collections and ; attendance were directly due to the present strife. Theremight 1 have been other causes, but from what came out before the Presbytery the strife appeared the chief one. The requisitionists said when asked that it was the strife that caused the falling off in attendance and collections. Now came the question; Who or what caused the strife? He' knew nothing except so far as had already been made public. But what ho himself considered the origin was the unfortunate letter sent by Mr S. Johnston to the Sessional Committee. At this stage he did not want to pass judgment on Mr Johnston; he might have been justified, or he might not, in doing what he did. As far as he could leam, Mr Monro sent a letter to Mr Johnston, stating that he could not preach at Kaiapoi on a certain Sunday during Mr M'Gregor’s absence at Bangiora, because Mr M'Gregor (as Moderator) had ordered him to go to Sefton. His opinion of Mr Johnston was that he appeared to have received a hurtful impression towards Mr M'Gregor in consequence, and then he wrote the letter referred to. Had Mr Johnston gone as he' onght to have done to Mr M'Gregor first and asked him about it, matters might have easily been arranged, but instead of this he rashly sent the letter, which had been the cause of all the strife between the pastor and the congregation. (Hear, hear, and No, no.) So far as he could sea Mr Johnston’s letter had been the occasion if not the cause of all the strife. He gave Mr Johnston the credit of doing what he thought was the best for the congregation, bat it was in his opinion both rash and thoughtless to send, the letter. He would ask this question—ls there any evidence that Mr Johnston was actuated by any unkindly feeling towards Mr M'Gregor or not? Now, it came oat in evidence that four weeks before the letter was sent Mr M'Gregor had preached a sermon which had offended Mr Johnston so much, so that he got up and walked out. His own impression was that neither Mr Johnston nor Mr Kidd were friendly with Mr M'Gregor before the letter was sent. There was also the question whether it was an arbitrary act of Mr M'Gregor in sending Mr Monro away on the Sunday mentioned. From what he could learn from Mr Monro, Mr M'Gregor had persecuted him j if this was the case, Mr M'Gregor, and not Mr Johnston, was to blame. This was simply a matter of evidence, which at present, he considered, had not been properly investigated. At the same time, ho thought that Mr Johnston’s rash and imprudent letter was the cause of the whole strife, and he thought that the Presbytery were quite right not to accede to the waver of die requisitionists. , V & Johnston thought that as so much stress had been laid on his letter, it should be read. The Chairman then read as follows X “ Kaiapoi, Oct, 9,1879. “ To the Elders and Committee of the Presbyterian Church, Kaiapoi. , “ Gentlemen,—l am informed that the Bev. P. B. Monro is not to be allowed to preach here on Sabbath next, as myself mid others Were led to expect. Were l a member of the Presbyterian Church, I should certainly lodge a strong protest against this palpable antagonism on the part of the Bey W. M'Gregor and the Presbytery to the wishes of a large number of the _ Kaiapoi Church and congregation. Their aotion musfc militate against the spiriting and filial prosperity of the Church. Not «rdy hss the Church to suffer, but one of the r younger ministerial brethren is made to fee! anyfchmg but comfortable by those who are his eider, id the work, simply because his ability nnd earnestness in his Master s work commands popularity and love to such an extent as his SreWenotattainedto • press my disapproval oi tho existing Sto of affairs in .the I shall not assist in any of ito Public. "RWb

inr allow daughter to do so, till some improvement takes place.—Yours truly, • “ 8. Johnston"

Mr Johnston thought that Mr Monro should bo present, (Hear, hear.) Mr W. Mulligan gave a at itement of what had been done before the Presbytery. They hod laid before the Prosbj tery the fact that Mr M'Gregor had entered on the minutes of a certain meeting, that Mr Kidd had used the words either " you. lie,” or “ you are , a liar," which words were , used by Mr Kidd. Wow, ho considered that these words must have Keen entered for some purpose or other by Mr M'Gtogor who had also tried to raise strife between Mr Johnston and Mr Kidd, and had also accused Mr Monro of having md he (Mr M'Gregor) had persecuted: him. He would deny that Mr Johnston’s letter had anything to do with the strife. He then read a letter from Mr M'Gregor to Mr M'MOlan asfollows:—

Kaiapoi,;Oct, 10,1879. "The Manse,, “ Dear Mr M'Millan, —In reply to your request to be present to day, I regret that a previous engagement prevents me. There isnowno connection between the Kaiapoi and Bangiora congregations. lam Moderator of Bangiora and also of Sefton. At a joint Committee meeting of Sefton district, on Sept. 25, Mr John M'Lean, of Amberley, in presence of the Presbytery's deputation, asked if they conld not have an occasional change of preachers. It was then arranged that Mr Monro take one Sabbath evening the next month, as the only available exchange that could be had if he acquiesced, and Mr Elmslie arranged the matter with him. There is no connection between Mr Monro’s work and mine; he is now immediately under the jurisdiction of the Presbytery. But as this reply does not meet Mr Johnston’s inquiry, for which yc u ball a special meeting, and although the matter does not belong to the Committee, I: give you the explanation as above, as doubtless Mr Johnston, not being a Presbyterian, requires your special instructions. Still as this matter has called you together, and the peace of the church is evidently being undermined by this question, and as my sermon on Sabbath, Sept. 14, also, I. believe, gave Mr Johnston offence, let that matter be brought up' at the sametime. As, I am; a Presbyterian. miaister| as you ar,e all aware of the -principles of our church, it rests upon you to call a meeting of the ' Presbytejry’s Copmuttee, ► under •* whose care you are placed, to have all the matters of differcacabrought to & ’-proper settlement; as no spiritual prosperity can be-expected in the retention of any matter of strife or version.— Yours truly, “W. M'Geegob.”

Mr Mulligan was afraid the cause of the present soreness was dated from a long time back. He then; made a series of charges against Mr M'Gregor. Mr John Stevenson said he was a member of the congregation, and had been, a Committeeman for several years. He thought that when there were , matters in dispute between the congregation and the minister ;he ought to call a meeting, which had not been done. He also accused Mr M'Gregor of making false statements, ; and said he 'had made up his mind that he would never sit under him again, as he would be a hypocrite if he did. This was more than three years ago, long before Mr Johnston had anything to do with the church.

Mr Johnston here asked that Mr Monro, who was now present, might be heard. He had carefully abstained from taking part in church matters as he was not a church member, except as regards Mr M'Gregor preventing Mr Monro from preaching at Kaiapoi, which he thought he nad no right to when :members of the congregation wished for a change. He hoped that Mr Monro would give a clear explanation. All he wanted was a statement 'of facts. (Hear.) He then accused Mr M'Gregor with falsifying the books of the church, and of falsehood regarding words used by Mr Kidd in reference to Mr Monro going to Sefton. Mr Douglas would ask Mr Monro if be ever gave : Mr 8. Johnston any reason to believe that Mr M'Gregor was persecuting him. Mr Monro replied that Mr Elm slie had told him that Mr M'Gregor wanted him to go to Sefton on the day in question. Be distinctly told him that Mr M'wregor had wished him to go, and os he was Moderator he, of course, considered it an order. Mr 8. Johnston then read a letter from Mr Monro to himself in confirmation of what he had said.

Mr Monro said it was the last thing he desired—to make strife in the church. (Hear, hear.) . , Mr Kidd confirmed, to a certain extent, what had. been said by Mr Mulligan. He also accused Mr M'Gregor of being in an “ unfit state to write ” at a Certain meeting, and also of telling falsehoods on more than one occasion.. He had challenged Mr M'Gregor to come and substantiate certaiu accusations made against himself, which he had failed to do. He stigmatised Mr McGregor as “a little Pope,” who had called Mr 8. Johnston “ a little Baptist body.” The sore was of longer standing by some years than Mr Johnston’s letter. Mr M'Millan stated that the accusations made against him were simply untrue. Some lime in Jane; 1878, he took some work of Mr Walls’ to Mr Kidd, who was with Mr Walls at the Kaikainni Hotel, and afterwards casually mentioned to Mr M'Gregor the circumstances of Messrs Kidd and Walls being, at the hotel together, but he never said Mr Kidd was either a drunkard or a card-player. (Hear, hear.) Mr M'Gregor afterwards told him of certain accusations said to have been made by him against several members of the congregation being seen drunk about the streets, and other things of a similar import. He thought that perhaps Mr M'Gregor acted unwisely in leaving the Church and preaching at other places just when there was a crisis in the congregation. If a portion of the congregation wanted to get rid of Mr M'Gregor, they ought to have taken the general wish of the whole congregation. (Hear, hear.) Mr M'Gregor was a friend of his, but at the same time he thought he had acted unwisely in several matters, Mr Monro had given him to understand that he did not wish to come before the Presbytery, as the Bovs Eraser, Oree and M'Gregor had a down on him. He saw Messrs M'Gregor and Oree and told them of it, after which he thought the matter had dropped till he was asked about it the other day at the Presbytery, Mr 8. Johnston thought that the true facts of the case bad been laid before them, and they would be able to judge for themselves who had exhibited animus. He had said nothing but the truth in his letter. Mr Douglas pointed out that there was a decided untruth in his letter. Mr Johnston explained his reason for the remark objected to, which he considered perfectly true. The Chairman . and Mr Douglas both stated that Me Johnston was wrong in supposing that the Presbytery had any animus against Mr Monro. He was evidently acting under a wrong impression. Mr Johnston explained his reasons for writing the letter on which so mnohe.ress had been laid. He 'also accused Mr M'Gregor of telling falsehoods, and of “ irritating” his office-bearers, and made several other accusa* tions of the same sort, many of which Mr; M'Gregor denied in toto. Mr Johnston also said that what he had done was for the best so far as he could sea j he also thought the foot of the officers, who were all men bred up in the Church, having resigned their offices sooner than hold them under Mr M'Gregor weighed more than he could say for or against him. The Bev J. Hill thought that it was a very good thing to have had it all out as it had been that night. The whole thing was like a snowball—small at its beginning, but the more it was rolled the larger it grew. He thought both parties were to blame. Certainly Mr Johnston was wrong in writing the letter he had done, and also in accusing Mr M'Gregor of injustice to Mr Monro. He thought the tales told by these two gentlemen, Messrs M'Gregor and Monro, perfectly agreed, but he thought that when a gentleman leftthe church in the middle of a sermon as Mr Johnston had done, he was not a good Churchman. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the other reports, they all knew that Mr M'Gregor was hard of hewing, and that might account for a great deal that hud hap*

penpd. He certainly thought , thgt; Mr M'Qregor had botod indiscreetly on ; more than one occasion. They ought now ■. to find out the wish of the congregation as to whether Mr M'Gregor should leave the district or, not. One point On which Mr M'Gregor had certainly done wrong was in taking a situation sea teacher while still a minister of the church, besides which ho know.there was-ft want of minis'er* in the denomination. Such, a thing was lowering to i the whole status of tho Church, He would most heartily like to see Mr M'Gregor give up his situation, and the congregation receive him back again. (Hoar, hoar.) Mr Douglas pointed out that Mr M'Qregof’s stipend for the December quartet had not been paid; only £5 10s had been paid, and not that till March. He thought this was thereason of his seeking another situation, in which he was quite justified. Mr W. M'Gregor made a persona!explanation, referring to the statements made by the different speakers, during which he was frequently interrupted by Messrs 0. Young, W. Mulligan, J, G. Kidd, and others. After a great doil of discussion, of a most uproarious character, during which a great many left the church, Mr Young proposed, and Mr Mulligan seconded “That Mr M'Gregor be requested to resign.” » To'which Mr B. MTntosh proposed, and Mr Elder seconded.as an amendment—" That Mr M'Gregor be requested to remain.” On the amendment being put, 19 hands were held up for it. The motion was then put and only 7 voted for it, and the Chairman declared the amendment carried. The result was received with cheers and applause. •; The meeting then terminated by the Chairman pronouncing the Benediction.