GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Lyttelton Times, Volume XXVIII, Issue 2118, 4 October 1867, Page 2 (Supplement)

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

WI3DNE6DAY AND TUURBDAT, SfirT. 4 AHD 5;, THE FINAKCiAL jPQLiCY, Mr;TANCRED.-Sir,:- Ido. not intend to. a>, tain the House Witli any lengthened remarks, butldo jiotliketovpte;upon;thißquestion■: Without expressing the yiewsjwhich tenter,, taitfupon tlitf questionbeforclhe House. . I. think that in' the present critical' state of the colony, H is the diity of .every; niemberwho has any, even the smallest, Suggestionsto offer to bring them forward and submit, them \ the Ilpiise. Sir| I desire tb: pay my tribute : to the Hoi' tlifc:Colonial;Treasurer'forthe. very lucid '■. statement', which he has'made on the finances of the colony,: Icdrifess that I came up hero to;Wellingtonwitlr'aycry: yagueiand indistinct.notioii.of therealstate, of the finances of the colony;, but.thestatcr ment of the : hon. 'gentleman to my: mind

shewed very clearly how the ftaauces of the colony standi I can now clearly understand exactly in what position ..the colony, ism in regard to finance, and he .ljns enabled nieand I am sure lie lias enabled, other; honour- : ablemembers-to judge better tlianwecould dp before of the mode in .'which: tliefutureis, to. be The;only exception that* haveto take to the statement of the honour-:' able gentleman is this,- though he : clearly shewed us what the present state of the colony is, he did not shadow forth any future for the colony. The s(atement;;so;far as regards the present year, yrasj-.l.tUinkia most satisfactory otic, and I believe: that.the mode; heprdposes of'meeting.tlie.engagements and tlie.exp.endifufc ipr.the -year sonable one; but what 1 complaiiotts; that: he:does notigo- any, further, lie tellsus how we stand,' and howwe.can meet our liabilities, but there the proposals cloße, and it pecurred; to me that he.miaht have ended by stating what would cameaffetwards., Sir,;it appears.

to me that ithe great question before the; House now' is, whether we are going to estab-; ■whether we are going to establish a system : which is, permanently in excess of. ourJnV. come. That is the real question, and how-. «ver.much; it may have been/disguised,! think ; that the true meaning of the. financial statemehtis that we should engage in liabilitiesVand. contract, loans for the purpose of; subsidising theprovinces,and I seenoend to thatsystemynuthe future; The Hon. the Colonial Treasurer holds out a-ipromiseto iheiprovinces? that'he will give them;;£337;ooo for. this' yeaT, /exclusive; of the provincial charges.'";. Now, it ..appears to haps the honourable .gentlemanrwili; be surprisedat. what I am saying—thatsuch a.sum is. not .'.sufficient to' meet the charges which must be ..incurred by the .provinces.. I have made a. calculation from the returns which' the honourable gentleman ..has placed: before, the ; House,; and in the statistical' tables I find .;that ".the., expenditure by the; provinces, which will : be absolutely .necessary ..to .carry on t|ie : ■prpvincialV'''.eshblißhmente,... i must be at least^2oo,ooo;/to/that.ladd' the charges on; the provincial. loans,;>which amount; as. far as' I can see fromi';'the samevtabies,. to £150,000, Sir, that.makesthe.ehargesforthe provincial services to.be.appropriated..by'the Provincial Councils. £350,000;- while the.Honi the' Colonial Treasurer promises them only £337,000'. It is quite, apparent, (therefore,; that if thatexpenditure is incurred, and: nvpther sources of; meeting it are provided—for many of ; the' provinces, have little more;' than tlieir Cusi. Toms revenue to -rely upon—therewill.be-.'a; deficit; of: £13,000..t0: be.ipund;; tknow ;will ■ be f will, ;be:. found in overdrafts at the Bank;and: that will stiU;;further:\idyolyeTus;in debt, •. Now, .my, idea:;of;;the. way. .to. meet ;the. expenditure, aecessary.to maintain the provinces is by.tlie: reduction .of;.the .general charges:; for "■ how'r ever right itrhayjbe to have expensive public seryices,;l think iit.will ..be. absolutely neces-; ~: sary to cut them down—that is, those which

arenot absolutely required. 'I believe that a great reduction might be made in the charges for postal service,.;and:that:it could, be/cut down £IB,OOO at least..; .!V. Mr.Hall.—How?" ;/*'/ /.i//"".

Mr;TANCRBD.—The ; :hoh;. member, asks me how; but I-must rather 1 eave it to: him ■to find out. ; I'yrilly tell the hon. member, what my : idea/.'would;, be.. I would take off theintercolonialsteamersfrom;Sydney to Auckland,."and from.jMelbpurne to.Otago, and I would'take-off half services, Chichi thihk, : the/hon; gentleman: ViH;.find'>6uld : £18,000.. Howeyer,;rdorio,t:say..that;;is.;the best mode: ■, but-if there; .should be .no other; found; then .1 have no doubt that it would suit;. .1 think, also, that upon; the estimates.

.as.they.are laid before usjwe-raight'makesbme reductions/ as for example, in. the niatter pi defence. ; . There, at least in'jQPP .<T JGI2iOOO Could be taken off #e; item : f ■Militia' .and Ypluriteers." there'is ■ATery. singular, arrangement with regard to ■the Slilitia ;ahd Volunteers at the present moment; 1 find, in going through the, numbers; that in the North ...Island, where they are most wanted, there ..are considerably fewer than in the. 'Sputh Island, •where: they are not wanted' it all., Now, I think this arrangement is in one, respect fpr.r. tunate, that in the North Island, where there' are.enemies, the service might involve.disaster;; but in the Southern Island' it wag; more pleasant for all partieito have a numerous: body of Volunteers, .because they can do us.no' harm. There is another item which rthink.can be reduced, and that, is native expenditure. I.fiad that 'native.expenditure, is charged, in three separate ways—Xi.Oob on',the civil list; there is, aripther: charge,,! forget the amount, on. the''estimates ; and then there is another £3,000,, by' way of advances. Suppose we cut off a sum eujiivale.nt to the civil list and the £3,000 from prbr, vincia] pharges, ibeUeVe there would /lie a sufficient sum left for all ordinary mattersVof native administration. . I should, like to. see some reduction in the native 'administration. I think it, will :b<>: fourwl-if; & look to the estimate^of last year and'compare them-..with those of the present .year, the Estimates for. native, expenditure thißyear arehigher, than last. year. An Honi.MsMBEE: No, Mr'TiirqßED;: It appears to me.thatiome of the items are charged in other classes; at all events, there is no reduction. MrHall: There is a reduction of nearly JESOQO. "'...'. Mr Tancred : It ought, to be! XIOjOOO, X would, give'theprovinces enoughtoicarry.on; the Government, and notbe obliged to r^rrow: so much as" we have, to borrow.: I: should have np objection to a loan being:; raised if I could"see ah end to.the system of borrowing; and the financeiput ori.a-proper basis. If the" system ;of loans', could be done away: with, lit would be well j.butlam -afraid, from; the tone the Hon; the; Colonial: Treasurer, adopted* there is' 'no .hope of such.a consummation: being effected!.. The system .of loans: for .subsidizing the provinces''.;is.likely: to continueasapermanentsystem unless wealter the financial arrangements. ..It was; that part of tliu financial statement'. which : was mbst ; alarming, to me. I may say. that, a further statement, which the boh. gentleman made in the.appendix to his. financial, statement waV most alarming, and that was thei arrange-' .xnt'nt the- lion, gentleman said he had made ■ : .whereby,he liitd.secured a. majority ion ithisv . .question; 1 can only say.thal. ut .majority iti ' favour, of establishing borrowing, astoperma-' hent:Byßtem':of;.finance of the,colony is a most alarming feature in this statement/ I .have no objection toa subsidy being- paid. to. the contrary I think ,it . .very necessary .'that.- they should be : subsi-di-ed—but I. think that can be, done without so'greatinjury to tlie-.colony as, "m : done by nicuisofiliepresentirrangemehts. There ..is another way in; which the,; provincial ex■...penditure might be curtailed very .considerVably, and that is by an organic change in the . '..constitution of the provinces. I. believe we; fought to be thinking seriouslyaboutthis. V.l think it is mainly: btcause the Siiperinteh-' - dents are interested in .running the country. into debt that so much -.difficulty, lias, arisen, , and is likely!: toSarise/maintainingias' they : '■ do, expensive establisliments^and- acting as . : royal personages in; their own '■dominions;. T ;, think that .might beilpne awayiwith by a very .., simple remedy, if the.iipusew.puid'.only agree with remedy is by doing away wit.li

elcctiveSup'crintendehts.nhd introducing, tho, system of::nominatioh.:;j;Thcre' would"be greater harmony in the administration of the "country... There is no harmony rio'w.. I heard': ■the:hon. ; .;mcmber for the Goldftelds say the ; ■oilier""evening that Provincial Government, officers did not owe allegiance Cto tho officers 'of the .General Government ! of :the country.^' .territory in 'ifoet.;; Nw,Tbclieve: if jParlia-; Iment were, to adopt a: system that; would; •make. Superintendents what. they, were: always intehded'to, be'j servants .of ;tho' General'■ Goyernment^it; wpuldjin troduce■'■ a; reform not phly- ititlie gOTcrnmeiitiy but; also :in: the;fliiahcO'Of .the that; Vbuld. prove most beneficial.: The '..Superintendents; ;woitld'no longer have'ahlinterestin ;iislimentßtliat.would enlarge jthe :ProyineialCouimilsi:Would«inquire:libw;;far: estimates proyihcially, charged, but>yotcd by : tlie ; :pr are.Bu'licieht for theiM mehtswereleft.to Provincial.:-.' Councils; the necessity:of:the case, andprobably, a .combination of "Provincial 'arid General 'Government .offices,, so ..that .great, payings.. ; might' be 'effected ,in thewbrkihg,of ; the various "departments';' I will not detaih.tlie. House .much .longer.; There is oneXotlier thitigthatl woiildiiketobeinformedon;: 1 have been ■reading. lately .the -report of. the CivirCommissionissued : by;.the,.Governmeiit to examine.intq.-thc Civil Service.. Tobservty in tliat ..report : they ; .recommended, .certain; alterationslih.the ■depaftraem,ts;of;Geyernm«it' : which will eff eet;',: accordiiigjtbtheir; views, a; saving of £75,000 .a-year;; I haye not heard 1 -how far. the Government have : adopted their : 'suggestions,:.or have, acted; upon them, or: .whether they are iii the course of :ihtroducrog those.reforms. ... i Mr Hall, ■•said':' Sir, if the:,, hbn. member who'has jiist sat;dpw"n, and whose voice I am. ; .yery glad'.to welc.oinejn the House, Irishes.to vote against a systemi of borrowing,: he must, ■chboseahother opportunity, because 1 beg to assure inm that this irnoVan: occa'sipiifpr dpiiigso.' He uasimisunderstbod the financial ■statement of. tbe.H6n.,the: Colonial .'Treasurer

if iie.supppses it IB apart ;bfrour'prbpbsnls to carry; oh the Government by means of loan's, if he will look' 'carefully...through- that statement, he will see"that there we- do propose;

to borrowfor those .purposes for.. Wliiiih.any country may fairly borrow.;-' that : js,.tp say,; j for works of permanent jiitility, and for ■ those extraordinary ahd.special.purppses which all. countries.that are involved inwar expenditure consider : -,-.themselves; justified in charging partially upon'posterity. .Ifthe-hpn. member, hasexaminedthatpart,of the statement'.pf; the.Colonial;Treasurer which,declares: the ■objectsfbr.which.:it;is.proposedto .loan, I can hardly undersfarid: how. the hon, .Vem'ber/caa-liaye; supposed, that there is any. intention to borrow money andhand.itover. to: the provinces. . ;Mr. Tancred : The. h'pn. member,misunderstands ihe. .What I said was, -that there. iwas .borrowing for current expenditure, in, order; to! swell, .the surplus that, was distri:buted amongst .the. provinces.; ,':■ ifir Hall:; Well,'it: comes to this: the '...honourable gentlernan; uridwatanda; that we are.going.to.bprrpw. inprder to carry :out the ordinary and .current: expenses .of ; . th.e:year,. and.b'y that is by-.relieving the Ajurrent income.of;the yearpf ordinary revenue, charges^leave;a;.largei'share to the pro.vinces than they;.would have under .other circumstance's.. My.. answer, is,, that we. are :n¥ proposing -;;tb; borrow "for tlie. ordinary current services which plight to ,be charged ''on; the current: revenue of :the jear,. lor Instance', theerecttotf.of lighthpuses, a work.of

vast utility, is : not. one which sjiould bepaid for exclusively .by the taxpayers of thepresent dayj. it 'Should, in ■-.fairness,., be distributed oyer a series.of-years.; 'So with, regard to the. telegraph,.and.so also .'with respect;.;to'the.ex■pendjtu'reoh;the,war,:which latter expenditure: isalmpst":.drawn a.close, :I'.hope v ..Tnese

ire l ;exge'nses:: which, in; /all weltoegulated/ systems/of'financ'eV: are series of, years; Sir, the honourable gentleman has stated that the ; of the-XJoloniai:, Treasurer isi'a finance .onlyjfor onei year, and what would become of: the. colony; after that; year.i-I submit not tlie.Colonial Treasurer's business-;/he had to shew how he proposed; toi provide ■ for; the .services. for the'year;andl/deal' : with /the.-ihwme-for the,.'year. Jf the bin. member will .fairly, lobk at the Treasurer's statement lie' willadmit that there is no,, reason.tp doubt that i the incprae of .succeeding -years will equal that of. the present one or that the charges to be provided for will, be anyJarger; and if the Treasurer, therefore, makes both, ends meet at .present we may fairly hope that-the: same result-will be attained: in. future.years.: the hon. gentleman said that the Civil Ser-; ■ vice Commissioners recommendedalterations by which a saving of £75,000 a year could be I etfected.arid lie wants to know if tliese're-' commendations have been :carried out. Mr\TiNcaEb-i said''were in courseoJ. ; •being effected.". . , ,hpn.,member . will see fbat there, is actually/a .considerable" saving in the estimates.. for..;tnis;..year 'as' Compared, with. those.of last/year.'..'■.; Th'e v (hbu,;in'emberaiß'p: expressed alarm; ■.at a ; ,supplement to tlie Treasurer's glorious, system: of ■ future borrowing, and.lie. mlxes'up, the'.'aMahgem'enis,'whlc¥'Aie„'Pql6--ni'al; treasurer; had: made, for securing .a.

'majority for hw :-.proposals-, ■ If ", he-. Iliad; listened carefully to wha^'tjie;^!!)^^''!^:' surer saidhe: would[haveremarked;that the; Colonial ; 'Treasurer on that, occasion most distinctly . poLkted . out that ,;hc was not at : that time .stating./ the ■ views of- the. G6verament, : .but ..Bimply his own, . individual . .opinion, and 'that is, what I. must riow repeat, to; the/Housei liis own^^.views; on this-. ■subject,. ahd/iwheh/ ..ludedto he;never.;dreamt of conveying to the, feuse-;that;they l of /CoU leagues..., .[What;; his Statement; actually ; amounted/to wasjthatitwpuld be ;a desirable /arrangement. h\ ascertain,■:'.by:; means /of.;a; Coinmissiohj ;pr/.in someday, what /the j real; borrowing iCapacity': of,"the'colony!amounted; '.to, with,a/view to;enableustoconsolidate loans/upon advantageous,terms.I do :not : say!that;future bbrrbwing was not connected with the remark, but it; rose out'of : the\.cohspMidation^ debate it;can .be/called, has been'brie of the. sßjost remarkable ones I have ever heard in ■ /thisHbuße,/;i-:thihk. that any;hoh. member ■who has been-here"from the beginning of the sesßibh'j on listening to it would prob'ably ask, : :";Wh'at has* become /of the-provincialist

liartyit" : Wiethe' exception; of ■theih'bn; ■membe'^to^the'goldfleldßj■■we : haTe ; h6t'.iieard■ a single speaker on that aide., We;liave not fouiid.'. them ; anywhere|: although we may.; probably do.so on a division, we hate-nbiyet' heard-•';their voice. i ;On.tke'iother;hah(], we have had speeches, front ourownfriends.and; !supporters which I am.quite willing to admit; I have heard not without considerable regret; ; lofrankly-acknowledge ■:■■ my.vdeep; that. honourable; ; gentlemen: from; fwhoiu ■ we have (.received .valuable. i ■ support,; and; ■with ■ whom we. have generally sympathised,'', feel .constrained onr.this- occasion to vote against.us; but I begtheto to believe that in' the proposals we have submitted we have not been; unfaithful to ; the understanding upon; / wliich'we';'t6ok;offlcejv..buUhat''';th;eyi;arejtlie. result of the .more general comprehensive view/of the circumstances of the colony, and the closer* insight into ;its. ; condition, which, ourposition -has..afforded hthoße, honourable;, members."' have hot; had afforded.tovthem;.' I firmly believe, 'if .they ;liad :beeri in;;;our ;places, i.tiiey,would., hiiye. modified ;the : opinions ■■'; they, have now.;expresßed., But; under these, imputations we, hawat:any rate one consolation, that; the : whole; tenor of this; debate niu9t put;an end . to the accusations; .whicli: hayei beeiK abrife and;tb;the';-.cliargesiwh'iish .have; been so 'frequent; that we harbour:, insidious designs against'.theJife .of Provincial Governments; Surely ultra-proyiiicialista froin Very'shame. ; will admvti that we haye ; now; stood, iri fihc; ■ .-breach-' between I'r.oyincial. institutioiis; ; ahd;. very considerable danger. .1 do riot-admit ■'. that we .ever: had .those-designs-1 now ...disk clajm, and whjch it has been part of the .;.tactics.of,our opponents to charge us with. ■'-. ,Theyiiiave;.bcen very clever. They have got upjthese.reports in; the press, in .the House, ;'• and elsewhere ■; and when we naturally deny '■: tiiat% : entertain such designs, ihey retort,

J You didiiave.thein ■ but wo y6u:out,6f them V' and;thcy,asser;t * that[the outcry which was raißedihas caused us to !altcr our' plans on various ' facaaions*". Ministers cannot alwhyß bo writing to the ■newspapers'to say what wo are going to do, but We .■■.have,.' at suitable tiiues; and ,pn ■suitable.occasiohsi tlehied; : that: we. ever; did • cntertain;thedesigns;imputed:;tbua. jllibpo the 'present debate-will put an.end. to such absurd charges; Beforo I pasato the; more 'general' qiieetioirt under debate,! wish to alludo do 'an■■ assertion lion: member.:.for Selwyn.tlitttweliavedeparlcd.froin.tho.prO" gramme.of last ycar--,with..:rcference---.to,;.tlie Treasury Bills then authorised. .My honourable friend stated.: tlmt part :moiitf programme ■< last year was ..that .the Treasury Bills:then raised were:to : bo: paid piit of the.excesß of rbycriue. Ileis in: error, fdrtliey : weri3 : to; be piiid dfEiri ..three yearsh There would..indeed have .hardly. been< any. object : in, raising : .them; if: they were to be : paid out.of.the revenue of tlie.year^ 1 They: ■wereissued to.provide for services:which we tliovightshouW not be.pnid out.of the revenue ofthe year, but be extended ;oyera.series of yours. 'We have hdt.issuedall the Treasury. Bills: authorisect, and I admit tliat; of :.\those ,'tliat' were issued, we have not -liecn ..üble.i.to 'redeem.any.part, The;. Colonial Treasurer; has been disappointed' '■•irivtliree;. .sources. of ; revenue,: on wfrich lie reckoned ;.wlieii lie made ;liis statement. : :Hc had a right" to reckon,on : the.return 1 of the SIOO,OOO. ■■debentures'.ad-.-

yahced to;Aucklaud,and on. the receipt.-of the hiterest-ahd sinking fund of. tlia; debt;alio-.

eaied to■ that.proyince;' Those spurces.iof iiicome have failed .thchi; He baa also paid off tlieioyerdraft of £26,000, yhich.stood ■ to; tfie debit^of ; the;colony with the;Bank;Of #ew; Zealand"when:. lie : made, his ■ statement,. :Tliat' makes. i£l4p,ooo;, sp that although Treasury Bills im'".'. been..;issued for. £125,0.0p; services and deficiencies; to a larger amount,have been provided -for;; ..which theGoloniaTTreasurer liad no,right ; tp take'/intb account last year. I will how refer; to some '.of the criticisms which hayobepn passed on .the.propbsais of the ;Govcrninent. The" rrio.st important areiliosewiHi reference; .to: the share of the : consolidated revenue ..which the Government proposes tphand over : tp the. provinces; Our proposal is,; that instead of the proy|nces receiving in 1 future,,as, in times, past, tlie^ : surplus ;pf tho raised 'injtlieir boundaries; after pay'ment;pf; the General. Government charges, and of the. general services prbyincially ever thatsurplus might happen tobe^they. shall .in future get one-half of the consolidated revenue, less, the general ■expenditure; prbyihcially : c)iarged,; ; The"hbn,.m Sejwyn.stigmatizes.this as a departure from the policy.of :i864; lam bound to say Ido ; npt : understand the remark, The policy pf .1864.' I: understand to have: been that the colony should rely on itself and its ;oy/h ; ' resources for its own defence, and I cannot ,say that 1 this has anything to do with' the questibii now under consideration,. I was present as a member of. the legislature, and heard the enunciation' by Mr Weld of that: policy j butiie said nothing of this question; I refer to. this, because Mr/Weld was.agehtleV ; man : for wlipih ahd ; for whose politicaTcohr ;duct I entertain the highest respect, and I

would he' sorry it should go forth that.our proposals are anything like a departure from his policy. Mr Stevens.: I alluded to the policy of

the session when Mr' Weld left office, ;''; MrffliiL• If so, -there is perhaps one-/ sixteenth difference in. the two policies. The provinces in that session were .first of all offered one half j,less, the general services prbvincially charged. At .a ' later period tlie Colonial treasurer, as"mercantile liien say, apr'ung a little, and offered iine-sixteehths;' but lie is riot going to spring now. An Hon. Mimbek : Tliere were the stahip ...duties';- ' '' Mr Hall ; the stamps might make'one-, .thirty-secbnd ..difference, then the/,hon. member,.backed by. the,, hon. .member for Nelson, iays that, the-system :propbsi;d..by us., will, encourage the.provinces to keep up taxa■tion.;. I .suppose they mein,'becaus'e : the-mpre general revenuei there is:raised,the. mbie will; he left for. Provincial; Governments; ij u 't ;under-the''present, system .tlie .provinces get the whole surpmXaf ter.the expenses: of the . General/Government; have been met, whereas under ; the 'system .now proposed they will phly : get brie-half of the "revenue; pb.viou.slyj therefore, there will only be half the tempta-

Hon; to the prpyihcea to keep up taxation which there(now ii the hon. member should have, acknowledged this, the lipn.'rnember. iartherstates'tliatbur proppaal is ; 'd.eath. to thei provinces. . I wish he would.explain what he, meant, for that opinion is entirely irrecbnciieable,'wit| the general tenor of" the Bpeecbejs,on .liis side ;of.the House, the general complaint is that-our plans are top favourable to :the prbviiices. An Hon..Member: They will be killed with kindness..! '.-.". MrHALL i I think they will stahda great deal.of that. thelion/member; need; iibfcky

that flattering linctibh to his soul. .I.do'hot; j siy. thai; bur proposals .aire .any '.very great | bbon to.tiie. provincesY but lliey do contain.; :j this great advantage—tliat'tliey wiil define':. ;i accurately the financial position of the. pro- i .y.iricesV.Thatiißthe.greatbenefitthia.scheme : holds out. The' hon, member for Nelson °i this a continuance;, pfa very .incpnve- , merit partnership; and he; prefers' the present ■ ■system;/ I submit thatthegreat eyil.'of the .pr.esent : .partnehhiblis that the; two partners;' ineverkhowifrom/yearto; year-what'are, their :respective shares! .Accounts were;made.up at the, end .of the ''■yearj.shewing: a certain;; surplus', aridin the course of another twelve^ imonths.a:different one; and bo oh./ The.. state, of things has' arrived at such a pitch : that i believe..;not.Bik : members of this' House; could make out from the ; returns, how the ; account really stands.. J ; ant reminded that; even the Audit Committee cannot do;it.; The .hbn. meniber'for. Nelson;, was oh. the Audit Committee, and'l .ask;him ; if we had not better, put an end to this uncertaihtyjand con-; •fusion'?. Tliehon.member^tates/asanbthef. objection, that.it stereotypes; the provincial system.; .1 gave him credit :for greater.foresight.and insight into; the political; future,of this colony, than tdsuppose that anything of ttiiß kind could lend permanence to theprovincialsystem. '.-,: ■''.'■■;Mr.CoßTis' : : I did not say the provincial system,-but-the, evils of it. '■■■ Mr" Hall: If 'he'tells-ine what those evils; ! are,imay be able to answer iiinl. Then the" Hon,memberfor. ChriHtehurch, a considerable; partof whose speechiEeardilambdundtpi say,', regretj complain? of our, proposed; distribution : because half of : the iconsolidated revenue.may not, turn out to.be .sufficient for ■. Government. ! '•".[,' reply £ that ; according-to bur^.estimatesi.bf revenue arid; expenditure,;the one-half share will be suffi-■' cienfc 'But'if the bare: possibility of its not; being suflGlcierit in time to come is:any valid argument against biirpposiiij it is equally. an argument against .giving: anything whateverto the provinces, because the expenditure; of ■'■the-:-General' Gpverimieht might possibly, ■besoincreaaed/tliatit would absorb the whole ;pf the revenue. The hpii, -member., went on; to say—and. this is,.of course ): an. important-j ; ppirit--that. tax.aiion was substantially only ;| justifiable, in order to :! maintain, tbe.beuce, order,.and good.governmentipf Cthe.country,-.! vftiid that we ought, therefore, only to' give to the provinces.enough to curry on: the essVntiiil 'departments:., of the - Government,;; and,.-!; believeheadded.tb pay-tlicinterestanilsiiilc-ing fund oil their .loans. The hoi), member isiatedj-in fact, 'that what.we ought to do was to provide the proyini'cs with. sulneient.: :revehue-to-p'roviiie.'.tlie- -iri'le'resUmJ .sinking furttl on lonhfj .andL maintain &; essentialdepartments pf provjiieial wliniiiisiriitiOii-r tliut.'is;',po!!ce,-giiuis;.'--.'aii(l, : perhaps, liaibuiir ''departments j and then the lion, member complains of our proposed subsidy as uxci>s-: -siye. The calculation -.recently submitted, -■lo-uS'tiy-'the- nieinber ;{cr Ashley has con ..firtried'.myinipresmohs. as to the-actual-cost, 'of/these depaitmn'ts.: The interest, on provincial'.- ! loans, which amount to about £2,600,000, will cpmc,to not lew than .Deducting::thivuiid. the.GoVernraint service's' proviniiitily charged from tlie : rnoietyof.the consiilidateilreveiiue,there remains.to the provinces X 137.000 to maintain the police, giols, and harbour departments, and oiie or two; other essential services all over the coloiiy.:vM.'iui the lion, member for Ghristciwrelueasonaidy say that this is too much? Iventure to assert that .thepolice

mid,gaols in .Otago and Canterbury alone ' cost'tfino.QOQ. 1 do not speak from book, but I believe that Is not over the'mark. If thatta thocase, are ve doing more than the lion, member for Chrhtclmrchsayu It is our bounden duty to do, and what wo should bo compelled to do if Provincial Councils were abolished to-morrow? The hon. member suggested that wo should givo a subsidy to the provinces by way of capitation allowance, ;.-. That may bo a more fair and conveiiient v ßystcm than the present one, but that is a matter of detail. The next part of the proposals of the Colonial Treasurer which lias been animadverted upon > 9 tlie P lan for dealing with the debts due by provinces to tho.'colony. The member for (ielwyn made ! a "statement which 1 was rather surprised toVhoar, namely, that the arrangement wns.:not understood by some lion, members, I could harlly believe this until J the non. member for Bruce actually denied that there , was anything owing by the provinces at'all. I would simply remind him that payments have been made to; the provinces, ranging over a series of years, on the assumption that the surplus revenue nccruing to :ihem would come up to a certain amount. Io some few cases it has done so, but in most c>ses, owing to the large expenditure which his' taken place in the provinces, they have been overpaid to the 'amount in the aggregate of £183,000. How it can, therefore, be said that there is nothing due.by the provinces lamat a loss to understand.: The hon. member talks of the Surplus .lievenues Act as a "musty"Act of Parliament. He reminded me of what I heard of a certain worthy town councillor in the./ lion, member's native land, who, when told that some extraordinary which he proposed should h adopted, was in contravention of an Act of Parliament, indignantly replied, "Do'you think the Mayor and town council of 'the borough of Kettledrum are to be fettered by a petty Act of .•Parliament ? " The 1 only thing that stood

hi the hon. member's way was a musty and petty: : Act of Parliament; but that was the only:authority under which the provinces had.received any subsidies at all. The hon. member for Nelson was for insisting for the payment from the provinces in full. _ No doubt a bargain is a bargain, and Provincial Governments would not have any right to say that we were going beyond our bargain ; ;but;.w.e must consider how those debts had

been incurred. Have the provinces taken this; money with any intimation that the amount was more than was really owing to tiiettv? No. Quarter after quarter, and year after year, the Colonial Trea-urer paid oyer to the provinces certain sums as their share-of the available surplus of the year, : ahd;we cannot blame them for having spent it, It is impolitic, after that has been the case,, suddenly to conic down after a number of years and say, Wehave overpaid you all tiiissiim, and we require you to hand it hack. ■ We must consider how it is that the debt has been/incurred before ve decide whether payment.of the whole debt shall be at once insisted; upon. An objection has been raised on the part of Wellington' and Nelson members to the deficiency of the Marlborough province being charged against their provinces. Those members should sav as little

as possible on that subject. The province of Marlborough is asking to be credited with a very small share of its revenue, which has been virtually received by Wellington and '.Nelson, and if those provinces get off with the payment of the small sum now in question they''may consider themselves very fortunate.

Mr Curtis-I said that I did not think an exception should be made in this particular cits?, when there was a general whitewashing between the provinces. :' Mr Hall—lt is not a general whitewashing, it.is to be a settlement between the provinces, ; arid that is part of that settlement. I ask lidnV members for Wellington also to

bear 1 .in mind that in those proposals of the Government they are receiving a remission "f a oonoide'r.iblo amount of allocated debt,> to which the circumstances of Wellington would not give them much claim. The modemf consolidating the provincial loans was declared by the lion, member for the gpldfields to be clumsy and incomplete. The Colonial Treasurer did not put it forward as a complete plan for dealing with the whole 'of the loans of the colony; he said this branch of the subject must be dealt with npw^and our doing so will pave the way for that, more complete 'and comprehensive seheme which we may have to consider on a future occasion. The hon. member for Selwyn:di!iß stated, with reference to the proposed increase of the Three Million loan, tliat there was an understanding, when debentures on this loan were sold, that -ho more than three million of debentures were 1 to be issued. I wish he had brought ■forward some evidence in support of ■that assertion. The Government would be the last to depart from an understanding of ith'at kind. There was.it may be said, an iuhderstanding with the House that it was the'intention of Parliament that no more thari;'three million debentures should be issued, I do not deny that, and we never : :dreamt of issuing more, unless our proposals oivtliat head should be thoroughly endorsed by the House. This part of the Government ■scheme is, however, not one with reference to which we are not prepared to defer to the ■wish ! of the House. It is not of very great importance whether the £260,000 re- • "quired shall be raised as part of the Three" Million Loan, although we believe that, would be the best way of doing it. ■': <We are fortified in that view, not merely by ; legal opinion, but by the opinion of men of ■: very great experience in this particular kind :bf .question, who have had our Loan Acts : before them, and know thoroughly well the manner in which our loans have been raised. ' Theyjell us that it would be proper as well as advantageous to raise the full amount of three million Bterling under this particular Loan/Act. It is under these circumstances that the Government thought itself justified ' incoming down to the House with its pro- . pbsals on this subject. The next point I will refer.to is the proposed remission of the allo-

cated debt to the Northern Island. 1 may, 'without impropriety, reveal a Cabinet secret ; bri this question, and say that when this proposal'Vas first broached 1 felt very much opposed to it, but after not a small amount of inquiry, or in a short time, but after earnest consideration, and after a very considerable number of facts had been brought to my knowledge, I have been driven to the conclusion that the course proposed is not only a ywise but statesmanlike policy, and that it was absolutely indispensable. If it is a proceeding from which we cannot escape, it is surely, but a right and prudent course to look the matter boldly in the face, and to do the thing : in Web a way as to make it most productive :bf. benefit to the colony at large. No one •denies—the Northern members, lam sure, . wiiUiiot attempt to do so-that the arrangements under which they are charged with' the debt may be considered in the-light of an agreement. They do not Iwishto deny that, but the arrangement .was made upon assumptions which have not ; :beeri realised. It was generally believed, : iwhen the arrangement was made, when a large amount of money was going to be spent in the North, that the result would be to very much enrich the province of Auckland; that a: large amount of settlement would be ■ ■effected, and the province landed in a condition'of prosperity which would very well enable her to discharge this debt. I ask any ■reasonable man whether the very reverse of ■ tliis has not taken place ? If we had been able'to come to the consideration of this question tit UlO time the arrangement was math', ■with'rbur present knowledge of the facts and results; or if we had to settle that arrangement now, not knowing what we_ now do, I : iiislciion. members to say if there is the least possibility that any one of them would have proposed the saddling of this debt on the Northern Island. I don't think any one in : his: senses would do it. It is therefore not only considerate, but a statesmanlike policy, 'to reconsider the whole question, it is almost . 'admitted all round, that there is an absolute : necessity for consideration towards the Nor- ■ them part of the colony, and the only differenceiappciired to be as to how it shall be , shewn; The member for Selwyn proposed , that we should leave the matter in suspense I for ouo year. .Sir, does the lion, member really and sincerely believe that Auckland, or rather the northern part of the colony—to

which hie observations applied—does he really believe that they would lie better able to bear the liability then than they arc now ? Mr Stevens.—No; I simply proposed that method of dealing with the matter in order that the House might be able to review the position of Auckland during the year, and have full information respecting it next session. Mr Half, : 1 thank my hon. friend for that interruption. Imy that the position in which Auckland is placed—tlio existence of peculiar

burdens which the province has got hanging over it—must necessarily be a sore point with our colleagues from the North, and one which it is undesirable to have brought up year after year and session after session. If thero is one thing more than another which is calculated to disturb the harmonious working of

thfi constitution of the colony, to create disunion, and to distract this legislature, it is the existence of peculiar grievances of this kind. It is all very natural for hon, members who want a few|pegs on which to hang their

plotting and provincial log-rolling—and lam

not by any means alluding to the lion, member for Selwyn, to keep this question open. But I say that any man who lias been a member of this House for the last ten years, and who has seen the difficulties that have to

be encountered from provincial jealousies and grievances, will look at the proposed settlement of this question not merely us something to be secured for this or that province, but as it affects the political peace of the colony as a whole, It is to my mind a most important thing to be got rid of, this thorn, which is rankling in the side of the northern part of the colony, and generally to prevent, as far as possible, some provinces from standing in a peculiar financial position in regard to the colony as a whole. If this particular question is to be left open from session to session, it will be made use of as an engine for creating confusion and dissensions, and probably lead to the renewal of demands for the dismemberment of the

colony. There is another reason, too, for disposing of this question, and it is this : That the consciousness on the part of the people of Auckland that such an excessive liability is hanging over them, must act as an effectual discouragement upon any exertions they may make to extricate their province from its difficulties, and probably prevent their carrying out the government of the province at all. Nor should we be materially aided in arriving at a sound conclusion by the result of one year's experience. If a wise man lias a tenant who is an industrious willing man, but owing to misfortunes owes arrears of rent which it is impossible for him to pay; or if any man. happens to have a partner who, owing to similar causes, is in a somewhat analogous position, I say it

is in many ca<eß for one's own interest not to crush your debtor, but, where your interests are so bound up with his, to relieve him of his debt, and start him in life again, so that he may have a chance of doing good, both for you and for himself ? That is the view of the matter which I take. Then, Sir, I come to the question of dealiug with the confiscated land. The honourable member for Selwyn recommends that they should be put in commission, We have heard a good deal about commissions, and a good deal about confiscated lands, and we have lost a good deal by both; but if we join them together, I believe that the loss we shall sustain will be something alarming, When first the value of these lands was ascertained, it was assumed that they would yield us millions; then they came down to hundreds of thousands; and eventually, last session, they were put down at a very low estimate indeed. Even that has not been realised; all that we have really received from them is £19,000. If you put them in commission, the first thing the commission will want is a sum of money to open up the country, to prepare the land for sale; and I doubt very much whether you would see that very money back again. As a proof of it, I venture to say that if we asked the

uiuiulicro for Auokland to Ukt) these ISQdS ] over, and be liable merely to repay the money * spent on surveys and public works, they ' would refuse to do it. I have never had any faith in any material return from the confls- ' cated lands, and I Bincerely believe that it : will be a good thing for the colony if we can at once get them off our hands. The lion, member was rather unjust to the small province of Taranaki in this respect. I would remind him that this province, under the arrangement proposed by the Colonial Treasurer, is going to pay for confiscated lands to be handed over to her, and which, no doubt, are comparatively more valuable than those in the province of Auckland. As was explained by the Colonial Treasurer, there is a debt due from the colony to Taranaki of £36,000, which is to be wiped off on these confiscated lauds being handed over to the province; and I confess that is a much more favourable disposal of them than I once thought we should effect. I will make one or two remarks upon certain alternative proposals that have been suggested in the course of this debate. The lion, member for the Goldfields suggested that everything should be left unsettled; his only argument in favour of being, that the present moment was not a convenient one to effect a settlement. No doubt next year would be time enough for him, as he hoped that he might then himself have an opportunity of settling them in his own way, and he sees no chance of doing so at present. Then the lion, member for Gladstone went very trenchantly to work, proposing that the customs should be very largely reduced; stamp duties should not be increased; that great reductions should be made in expenditure, by all subsidies to provinces being stopped, and the provinces should be left to shift for themselves. Such a course would, I believe, simply bring about confusion .and anarchy, even if I do not say repudiation; and it would do this colony more injury and discredit than anything that has happened since it was plunged into war. I believe that the provinces have still a very considerable' work to perform, and it is our duty to treat them as part of the Government of the colony. The hon. member for Selwyn has charged the Government with not having stood by their supporters in this matter. I do not think the honourable gentleman had a right to make such an assertion; if he means that we have not adopted the views of our supporters, I would ask him the views of which section of our supporters does he mean, because we have had six or seven different sets of views enunciated from his side of the House during this debate. Mr Stevens : I mean the supporters which the lion, members on those benches had about a month ago. Mr Wood : Your consistent supporters. Mr Hall : If I need only refer to consistent supporters, this will greatly simplify my answer. Sir, I will only repeat that we have considered thoroughly the views and wishes of our supporters before we determined on the proposals we have made, as such views and wishes ought to be considered by every Government. But the honourable gentleman is hard upon us when ho condemns us for not actually adopting tho plans of any set of supporters, although, upon a full consideration of tho circumstances of thewholo colony as they are known to us—and they must be better known to us than they can possibly be to any set of supporters—wo have felt it our duty uot to adopt their views. I deny the imputation of the honourable gentleman, that we have deserted our friends, and I >ay that we have given every weight to their views, as far as we could, but we have considered that our first duty is not oven to our supporters but to the colony of New Zealand ; and when we believe our duty requires us to act in opposition to the wishes of influential supporters, we are resolved to do so at any cost. Sir, I now come to the complaints of the excessive cost of government which have been so frequently made in this debate. One member after another has got up and declaimed against this expenditure—and no doubt the cost of governing the 200,000 souls who live in New Zealand is larger, perhaps, in proportion than that of any other colony—but I think the complainants in this matter should hear this in mind, that looking to the peculiar conditions under which the country has been settled, and the manner in which its population is scattered over its surface, the cost of government must necessarily be large. One of the sources of tho expense of government of New Zealand is the attempt to carry its administration to the doors of the people who

live in such scattered positions and at such ( great distances from each other, as is the I case in this colony. Moreover, I do not \ believe that there is any colony in which the' settlers themselves arc what I may call more luxurious in their demands for the advantages afforded by extension of Government machinery than those in New Zealand. Look through those estimates, and see if there is any part that could be reduced without raising a considerable outcry from one part of the country or another. • Take, for instance, tho item of resident magistrates, and say if there would not be an outcry at once if any one was to be taken off. We are constantly asked to put on more resident magistrates, and to afford additional facilities for the administration of justice in outlying districts. Though honourable members may declaim against this branch of the public expenditure as a whole, I can tell them that from individual members we have frequent pressure put upon us to increase it. With regard to the postal expenses, about which something has been said to-night, that is certainly a very expensive service; but it must be remembered that a large share of it is actually under contract. The Panama service, for instance, which costs BS.OOO a-year, is contracted for five years. As for other postal services, what I said with regard tu Resident Magistrates will also apply here. The people themselves are luxurious in the matter, and, taken by itselt, this is a good \ sign, as indicating considerable progress in ■ civilization. Ido not think there is another

country in the world where such demands for ' postal accommodation are insisted upon as in i New Zealand. The cheer of the hon. member for Hampden reminds me of a case in which a reduction was attempted which, on its merits, was justifiable. It gave rise, however, to so many appeals, and to such earnest remonstrances, in which the Provincial Government joined, that the Government were induced to give way especially when they had an application to that effect from the Provincial Government which had to bear the cost, Generally, in the case of mail services, the more service of that kind is given the more is required. Places having a weekly service always want a service twice a week ; these again demand a service three times a week ; and those places which have a mail three times a week, are always insisting upon having one every day. That is all very well; it is a sign of prosperity, of progress, and of the education of the country. That is a reason for the great amount of postal estimates, The hon. member for Franklin was particularly hard on the Postal Department, and other members from the North spoke in the same strain. Now I will make a suggestion to him. If there is one mail service which can be better spared than another, considering the number of letters it carries, it is the service from Sydney to Auckland. Will the honourable gentleman give a proof of his sincerity by moving that that service be struck off the estimates ? I may take credit to himself that a very large saving will be effected in the payments by the colony in future years on account of the i Suez line. We have this year to pay a large sum for arrears due for account of 1866; but the contribution to the Suez line will [ after this year be reduced from £22,000 cr , £23,000 to £2,000 or £3,000. Here will be a

saving of £20,000 effected, ami in conse- i quence mainly of the measures taken by the present Government, The hon. member for Dunedin is another instance that while honourable gentlemen declaim about Government expenditure, they are themselves in some measure responsible for it. At the beginning of the present session he proposed to reduce considerably the present light-dues collected for the maintenance of lighthouses. These establishments are being maintained at a considerable cost, and the light-dues are barely sufficient to defray this and pay a trifling interest on the cost of their construction. His proposal to reduce these dues means that for benefit of a particular service the general taxation of the country should be increased. The hon. member lias been one of the loudest in his complaints of the amount of Government expenditure and taxation. Mr Main said that, in the absence of the hon, member for Dunedin, he might be permitted to explain what he meant, It was not that the dues were in themselves heavy, but that they fell heavy on a particular class of vessels. Vessels of a particular class, trading between the Bluff and Auckland, had to pay twice. Mr Hall: What the hon. member for Dunedin said went to a general reduction ; but it might have been his immediate object to relieve that particular class of vessels. When honourable gentlemen hear complaints of the excessive cost of the Colonial Government, they ought in fairness to impress upon their constituents how it i 9 that the people themselves are in a great measure responsible for this expenditure. In addition to all this, we should bear in mind that we are now paying the penalty of our past proceedings. The interest on the war loans alone makes taxation heavy. There is still another reason for it : Session after session, and year after year, we have every few months had anew Government in office. I always did believe that these incessant changes must have a most pernicious effect on the service of the colony; but since I became a member of the Government, I have found that it is far worse even than I had any idea of. Is there the slightest encouragement to any Government to initiate plans for ensuring economy and improvement, when there is no reasonable hope that it will live to see them carried out, but that this will devolve upon successors holding different views, and entirely new to their work ? Under our present system hardly any Minister has time to become acquainted with the merits of the Government staff to see who is the right man to put in the right place before his time for doing so is gone. It is all haphazard management. I could put my finger on hundreds of thousands of pounds which this system has cost the colony of New Zealand. I will say one word on taxation, upon which subject we had a chorus of voices from various sides of the House, The member for Selwyn—to whom I refer so often because there is more in his speech that is worth replying to than in most of the others—said that the taxation of the colony was unfair and unequal; but he ought to have added that the present Government lias already commenced to reform by introducing stamp duties. Ido not think be will ask us to go further—to impose an income tax, for he must know that there is not the slightest probability of such a proposal being adopted. He asserts that the present taxation makes the cost of production so great that the producer cannot produce at a profit. In the first place, Sir, I think the honourable gentleman has somewhat overstated the case. The taxation of the country is about a million, or nearly £5 per head of the population. It is said that a farmer cannot grow wheat to a profit because he pays £5 a year taxes. An Hon Member-There is a tax on the labourers employed. Mr Hall : Even then taxation would be of less moment in the cost of production than the great reduction which has taken place in the cost of living. The honourable gentleman would resort to direct taxation. Where would that fall? It would fall mainly on the land, and would impose a far heavier burthen on the producer than the indirect taxes from which it is proposed to relieve him.

Mr Stevbns : Will the honourable gentleman tell me where I proposed that ? Mr Ham. : The honourable gentleman did not propose it in so many words, but that was the direct inference from his argument. The member for Nelson Suburbs has stated that the taxation of this colony is in excess even of that of the United States of America. The honourable gentleman said lie derived his information from a newspaper ; I may therefore quote from a newspaper in opposition to that assertion. lam about to quote from an article taken from the London Timts, and one based upon it:—" To raise this great sum (309,410,932 dols.) it has beeu found necessary to impose n tax upon every article of common daily use, and upon almost every profession or trade, Every shopkeeper is obliged to take out a license—the dressmaker pays heavy duties on the raw material of her trade, and then an ad valorem duty on every dress she niakc3 up. The duty on articles imported from Europe is now on an average 60 per cent. Bankers are required to pay 100 dols. for a license, hotelkeepers from 25 dols, to 200 dols,, and the line is thrown

jut so far that it reaches classes like travel ling jugglers, who must pay 30 dols. beW they are allowed to swallow their knives in the streets, while lawyers are only valued at 10 dols. a-piece." With reference to thin the Canterbury Press of the Ist Nov, W remarks ;—" The taxation therefore of fte population was last year upwards of £7 nl head; and to this must be added tl ie taxts raised by the State legislatures, and the rates collected for local purposes by the townsli'J We have no return before m of the two Utter, and they vary very largely j„ States and in different townships; but it i well-known that these local charts ate far from light, so that the whole "burden of taxation laid on the public must b» at least 50 per cent, more than that paid by the people of New Zealand. \t a time when so great a stress is beini» laid on the amount of taxation under which New Zealand is suffering,', it is curious to observe how differently the saint subject ircgarded by the colonists of another hernisphere, who have always been regarded s« more impatient of taxation than any people i n the world. The Americans,we are tcjld, : rath"r glory in paying an enormous income-tax than in trying to evade it.' " I will , mt 1( j 0 t the words of the great statesman who complained of the people's" ignorant impatience of taxation," because it is by no means unnatural that they should be impat en; of t|i<. taxation we have to bear in this eohny • w I think it is not sufficiently considered' that

freedom from taxation is not the only tiling which makes a country a profitable or" t able one to live in. Home of the most hif'hlv taxed countries in the world are nevertheless the most wealthy and prosperous; provided always the money raised by taxation h employed for the real good of the community it is by no means an unmitigated evil, There are many undertakings which can only be

carried out by common contribution- in tho way of taxation, which largely benefit the community at large and more than repay the money raised by taxation— te!c-i»ranhs for instance, or lighthouses. It might he well worth while to add taxes, if necessary for those purposes. We cannot, therefore' look upon large taxation as being akavs and of itself an unmixed evil. Our mother country, notwithstanding she is very highly taxed is undoubtedly one of the most prosperous in the world. I admit thoroughly that everything depends on how the money is spent. We ought not to tax except for really useful and essential purposes. The member for Gladstone, who has had experience in these questions, has given the Government credit for having studied economy during the past year. In looking over the estimates for the current year, I think it will also be found that economy has been carried as far as possible without impairing the efficiency of the public service. I will now say a word respecting the member for Franklyn, who described the financial arrangements of 1350 as a : broken bargain. I give that assertion my most emphatic and solemn denial. The lion, member for the Bay of Islands, with consii derable ingenuity, has endeavoured to shew i that it was not a bargain at all, because a minority did not agree to it. I reply that 1 when a bargain is made by two different ■ communities—say two nations or districts—i the majority binds the minority, as in all • other actions common to the community. > But will lion, members look at the division : list on the Financial Resolution of 1556, and 3 assert that Auckland voted against that - arrangement, certainly not: the ayes were l 19, affirming the whole of the resolutions; - the noes were 10, and amongst the noes the ) only Auckland members were Mr Daldy and s Mr Henderson. On the other side, I find i. Major Greenwood, Mr Campbell, Mr Lee, Mr :1 Williamson, Mr Taylor, Mr Merriman, and a Mr Carleton. A large majority, therefore, i of the Auckland members were expressly - parties to that arrangement—an arrangement s under which Auckland I do not say ree ceivedas much as the South—l could not e pretend anything of the kind, as the bargain f has turned out an excellent one forthe South; t but Auckland has received certain sums for the purchase of Native lands under e that arrangement, and has moreover ■- been relieved of certain payments ot it account of the New Zealand' Company's

debt, Mr Williamson : How much ? Mr Hall : That is not the point; if it were only a shilling, it would not matter. Mr Williamson : The lion, member had better wait until it is explained before he crows too much. Mr Hall : I have no doubt the lion, member will have his crow presently. It is uot I who have now raised the question, but I assert most distinctly that this compact is as binding in honour and principle as any bargain can possibly he. If I believed that a majority of the members from the North shared the views and principles enunciated by the hon. member for Newton, I, for one, would be no party to the Treasurer's proposals. I have agreed to them because 1 entirely disbelieved that those gentlemen share the disgraceful sentiments enunciated by the hon. member. The debate, Sir, to my mind, illustrates very forcibly one of the great difficulties of carrying on the Government of the colony of New Zealand. Those of us who take a part in public affairs live for the greater part of the year i/.i apart. We do not meet together sufficiently to enable us, except for a very short time, to interchange ideas and facts respecting the various puts of this peculiarly constituted colony, thus to become possessed of a fair average amount of information, and form well-considered opinions upon questions which affect the colony as a whole. We live so much scattered about in what may be called a village, and spend so great a part of our days there, that we can hardly help forming narrow and local views and prejudices; and then we come up to the General Assembly grouped into a dozen different sections, each full of its owu opinions and most disinclined to listen to any other, or to concede those compromises of opiuious and interests without which no Government can be properly carried on. We ignore the general obligation devolving on members of a political party to sink minor differences iu order to carry out the pteat principles which it agrees upon. This debate has brought out very forcibly these ft"*, which are, I conceive, one reason why vc have been so frequently changing governments in this colony. Ido hope these eyns will be somewhat lessened by the diffusion of the information as to the precmhngs o Parliament which by means of the #<"«"" is to be circulated throughout the country. J will only say in conclusion that one of™ main advantages which I claim for the proposals of the Government is the extent w which they will remove sources of l" Ml " burning and dissension between various portions of the colouy at large, and will enaoie us to meet and act together for the good 01 the whole; and it is for these reasons that I sincerely hope they will »i adopted by the House. I hope wmembers will not forget the financial and other difficulties by «mu» the colony is surrounded, I have no « for it, if we will only lay aside these wy local opinions and feelings which nave >o« been the bane of our New Zealand poll« - I have no fear for the colony if we can conduct our political discussions as to ■ the conduct of the attain of the country entrusted to the bauds of honest,pruoin, and patriotic men, who believe in *> lir sources, but will husband them thorouf^ and if the people and Parliament wiu recognise the great necessity there i* i< strong Government, there is a dfngeron ing these benches occupied by those »ho* adopt acts which we will not descend to. maintain themselves in possession, ». > greatest danger of all, who will enda»oi * order to secure support, to heap still incumbrances on the Colony, *> country will be unable to discharge, lend" b million to this province and that, without much regard as to MM* he paid, and without any regard ho* " be spent, so long as its disbursement » the purchase of temporary popular i In spite of the material difficulties W I * jn the colony is surrounded, [have Ml I " its future well-being, if only it» f er B eu ' faithfully, and honestly governed. Mr Kekves said that when the h<m. fc Colonial Treasurer concluded ins w he financial statement, be wound up w.i observation that he commended a favourable consideration of the House.

that time, he. (Mr Reeve's). considered it berame the duty of every member of the House, both td/thathon.'.'g(!nttemßn i . i and to his own * ons tituerits, : 'to give (ill the attention ; that he' -was capable &f to the.scppe anil details of the statement, and .if'he.hadj'''anything-'t6 the'"- subject:-to! say. i|. : -!In..cprisidering the . senerat scope of the statenient, lie had,felt it accessary to consider also the'otherCensures that were cphnectedwith it;; the whole policy infect of the formed! ! apart; antllio was tlio more lied to take that: view of[tiie question from the fact that thii hon.; gentleman at, the .'head; of the Government' stated on : an occasion when die addressed a Tcr y■■ considerable'.' number of the members" of ; the House, that" the! financier statement ' formed a most impprtant'part of the■'proposed 1 measures oftheGdyerjiinent—iiiftiet.tliatit va.9 tlie keystone of the arch,, Wheii he took abroM.view of the measures Of the Government, and from tlicnce proceeded to consider the m)a!icial.!:Statement, I he:,was'met. : at the outset by a veryappareht difficulty./ It:be--canie clear.to. himi -at: orice. that the present; : j'nanci'at-statement.formed; no...part.of■■ tlie ■■ orieinal scheme of the Government; ;.lle thought that it would be admitted .generally by the House tliat some of llieearlit r meiisures; introduced were: ■essentially anti-provihcial---'. : ]ic might : say! aggressively so. The .Local, Government 1 ' Bill, whett introduced into the House;was speedily discovered to '-ha, very:: crude and iinperftctrltwas seen to be a! death blovr at tlie provinces; and'the House" rejected- it ,on- : ..that account. When that.. measure was'rejected, 1 ai new financial scheme became necessary ; 'arid'- ':i.l-!"' : - : eyidenco ;-.■'v?aa'i! wanted to prove what lie Btated,,itwi\3'sufficient to point to the fact that a large number: of the most earnest supporters v of tlie : previous measures "of ;■ -the. '■ Government.: at once rejected the new financial measures. He alluded to this fact in order to explain what ito ■'. his mind : accounted for the very ineffective and .unfortunate measure which had /now been brought; down to; : the House: ; He thought that tlie!Government; totally misunderstood tlie .feeling of ;!tiie ? country arid the feeling, of the House, the real desire of the country! as/far as he underr stood it, wiis' 1 to be; relieved of;,the burden'of some of tlie taxation. It might.be considered mere repetition 'for himto; say what nearly, every member who had got up. to speaftpn. the subject.liadrstatedj'but'lie'must : say■!that, the country was suffering extremely; from tlie very heavy;.taxation which was' imposed.upon, it, There.could be,llo. doubt-retail events: there was ftpiiejn hisiniiid— that thejrqduc-. Jive interests, of. .the: .country ;were!being, seriously endangered, and thatemployers.'.-pf labour were suffering, very\.muclr from; .the: Weight of taxation.!. He would. .be.glad'.if'.he. could indorse the view .taken.by, his lioiiourable friend the meniber!for, Westlahd! of the state ot the country, but he. was.'quite.; unable to dp so. As. far as .he knew the condition of, bis own province; he believed there wa9. no, one single interest, .'whether they took the; pastoral, commercial, mercantile, trading, or any productive.interest, in a worse cpnditipn at the present time than it Was three ; yearsi. before.' :He believed that there was. not one out of twenty of the population who was not in a worse! condition how thaiiat that time, and he believed that there'were: thousand's''pi! men. ■whowerelosingthelabpiirs .of-a. long terriiy: and.were becoming -disapppinte I in the attainment; /'of the /honest arid .reasonable; objects! which brpugbt' them .into the country, ; But that was/not'the%pnly/evil. of taxation.' An hon; member, hadreferred tp.an article in; a London paper, and tliat.article;had caught his.eye also, and, he hadno doubt, fixed/the attention of hundreds:of : others^nibre!:espe : daily, in the home.country. ■ / W.lien..it;,cpuld!n6' longer be concealed in England, tliat New; Zealand was the highest taxed country; in the" world save one, could it .bejsupposed; that it would be any iongerlooked for that large class who. fly from .theburdens

and poverty of the;;old .world ? : : "Certainly. i not; and it was needless to observe : that' it 1 was upon immigration and upon the influx of f capital and labour.that the .progress of: the 1 colony depended. He could only look upon i the financial, statement, as "a. great mistake, 1 ■ and as reverting to asystem.:, of i compromise. i and expediency which lie had hoped;,the ;pre- : j sent Government had : ''cast\-aside : - : fori-'e'ver. j :Whenlie looked back;to' the .promise {. tliey were led to believe:'would. he ; reaUzed—tliata . stringent economy wouldbei exercised; anda; large reduction in the expenditure 1 made; arid ; that they might hope aridf expect ,that ; ..the. time had ceased when they.;were; to borrow inoney to carry' on the ; ordinary:, expenses 6i Gbvemment-wlieu lie ''looked'' back to - this "t he could only, say that:,; he, in cpmmnh. with thousands:.of others in the colony, wa9 grievously disappointed with the present financial policy'. -They had heard a good deal even in the present debate about proyincialists and centralists. He believed he wasyas sincere 'and as National aprovincialist...as'could be found in that House, but he was certainly not.disposed to keep up or:.;increase', the taxation of the country, and still, less was he disposed to enter into the market as a. borrower.to encourage extravagance; in, the. Provincial Governments. There, .were ;.hundreds... of -reasonable .and. ratioriaA : ; metixin; thisvcountry. who were attached to.the system of Provincial Government!, but; whose main object was to curb theextrayagant tendericiespf ..those. Govern-: meutßj.an.d those.men looked to.this. Government ! ;for. support VinZtheir.reasonable en-, deavoursibut.he, was .sorry to say they had not got it: As he bad said, he was a rational proyiacialist;: but he objected to Provincial ' Governments keeping ...up the expensive' shadow of provincial: institutions after the substance had departed. He objected entirely to the colony being. saddled with expensive forms of government which were dead, and" fromwhich the spirit had departed. As he Tinderstoodi/the, functions;; of Provincial Gotetnments, ■ they: were mainly to carry on

the work .of^settlement,.of the colonization i and■ qccupatioii of the country. When Pro- s vihcial.Goverhments 'ceased to be able to do 1 that,; then their functions had essentially < ceased,..and. the'machinery should be swept ] away. ..'He' maintained that the' country! I looked to the GoyerhmeDt. to. propound some' < intelligible, some bold scheme by which that 1 could be effected. In that,thecountry hadbeen i entirely disappointed.' Instead of propounding 1 a scheme of. that kind, the Government had '< occupied'.the'..leisure' of the recess'in eon- " strutting one which was intended to sap the foundation of those provinces which had le- ' gitimate work; still to perform; and .when that scheme failed to; be carried out, tlie'y bring.dowii.a financial statement which does' its best to'keep up; at the expense of'the colony, dead forms of government which have no work to do or no funds to do it with. He ■ believed the ;cduntry would be exceedingly disappointed: with that financial statement. He believed; they, would. recdjgnise that the Government had not had the courage to meet the difficulties of their position, and that they; had tided, over, those difficulties,by running the colony., further'into d ebt, an d ; by jnitiat ihg a course of :extravagance which he was certain public:opinion' would not; 'From what lie had said, it;?would be evident that. he objected; to those details of the scheme. which 'were to .carry out.: the objectionable' features—that is to. say,, features v of .compromise.; It had been proposed :by the Government: that?certaia .balances; dueby the: provinces to the colony should .he:wiped out.; For.his own; : part, he. confessed that he did. not see:pn,whaVground the custodian of, the. public purse could of the;; public money.i'iHe desired that the p'royihee, a portion; ot'wiiich he: represented,i should; meet that c]alm;.and that,if others shonld'do the.same; lie .confessed. lie,saw;theidifflculty of the position j but lie. thought a way might'he fopnl ])j ; which' they could do so witlrbut embarrassing themselves; He. wo\ild ; ;fatlier thatitlie;:money; owing by.tiie.Southshould.bepaid,, .and that owing by the North ..Blioujdi.reriiairi ..over,;,but not be wiped out.. .lie; .objected .altogether to the; scheme of. giving up ; the; confiscated land,. or of repealing: tlie. : Loan . Allocation Act. In .speaking ...on those Bub)ects,,he trusted ,he : should not say .anything.that would irritate hon. members from' Auckland; though he thought that some of the pbseryar tionsthat fell:from them with regard to,the southern portion, of the, colony were uncalled lor, arid spoken in exceeding bad; taste. : A very .striking exception tb: the tone of-the speeches of two or three gentlemen from thai part of the colony was the speech of the hon

member for Auckland City West, the Superintendent of theprovihee.'!! He.was glad to And that tlie menacing attitude assumed by certain hon.. members ; :.from Auckland was not! adopted! by tliat honourable gentleman. The hon. member for Franklyn made a state-

ment which. he could not allow to pass uncontradicted.'; It was' perfectly true' that lib was one of those alluded to by the lion, member for 'Auckland ...City;: West as niemberß;. but:.' hej/ ; might /be: allowed to Bay that, although a new member, he hail- a bferably intimate.kiiowled go, ofitlieppliiical history of this, botany, and Tib- was-perfcctly acquainted with.'nnd. had a perfect; memory ?6f,; the leading' events of, the ■nine years.: The Jibn. member for.Frnhkiyn. stated i distinctly-that the war.".wis;'■ thrust 1 upoii ■Aucklaiid,;.aii(l i that! it iikd,;.ruitied the provhice;' -'He.:-' demurrccl to:' tliat

statement ; altogether,.. \Vlieiv . the war broke" out,, .•and - : wlieii'.' the: :seat of >viir. was: ,in •Taranaki, it .was ho doubt

distasteful fromthe .North; but.when 'it .seat of. war. was.to'be rembycd/frbm^Tarahakr

.ti);.Auckland,-.:a.-very"-';,wonderful ■icliange camp 'oyer their "opinions, .There- was -' no: question about it,.it was.a .matter of. history, .that public fueling : in : :.Aiicklahd 'w-asvliighly; excitediiHavpur of..the ..sent pf/war being removed into: the: province. --. The gentlemen : 'intimately connected witb thatproyihcp,;whb: pulled.the strings of':tliat.prdyinice, >vero■ very' glad.that the war came, tip;, .."Tliey.::Baw:.tli : eir' c.liatice, and sbmeof"tiiem, availed, theiriselves. of it. : : ! liiatiionburable.';gentlemaa'''ap"pealedv to the sympathy''of; : tlie South, oh -the ground that a'. large inumber '. ofV.tlie inliabitaufca pF; 'Auckland.had '■ suffered:;cruelty, through :tiie : ;war;Uhat;,:they had; : huilt ;: houses,'enlarged; and had.'lost:mpney-.by.iti. "Hewas .surprised' .that the., honourable .gentleman;''appealed to the; sympathy of 'the!Ho.useon■such'gro'imds;" .-Tlie plain fact' pfVthe:.case) was; that tl.iose' ; gentlemen" .speculated ohf'*'-'tVie--'.,war.' ; -;- ■ T.lie'y' niaiie.plenty.bf^ was; roiling: they rather pveristayed.t eir time and' they dost;jt .again',- and now the/House was asked: to. a debt which ; was ratified' by :Act .bf':Parliamcnt ; ,; : .wliieli.Actof.Parliament '.was■'considered in' committee;:and put'of; committee,'"and- was :carried :.by,a large- majority'O't'-tlie/iiouse; Tl%:were asked: tp.give up the claim, of the f. colony, against the prpvini e.-. pi' .Auckland .for.. ~ .suclii ' rfii a 3ons., ' as, ..'gentleman made::t-jmistake:if he. appealed to. his...sympathy 1 ;; lie appealed;,tp tlie.: wrong vquarter.. He would most; resolutely steel.his' hearl.andl buttonuj(his..pocket against -suchanappeal: The.moneyunder. the. Allocated; [Loan w'as.spentupon : the;' province,' arid tjie . wcounV'passed;''aad./D;o.-reasb.a. had; been adduced' by the Auckland ■ member's:' to ■ justify that House, in (giving:.up the claim. ; The-' G'overhirient .endorsed the proposition for the repealof. that Act, simply, for the reason that they could, not get the'money''; but, unfprtunateiy, they had told" the/House oh', other; occasions, that they had very unlimited faith m.tlie:future prospects 'Pfcthat.'. portion of the N6rt|ie'rn,vlslarid,.iand so -.they/must allow Southern;; members ..to participate: in. that, faith, and .t0...c0m? to the : conciusion that it was better to hold oyer the : debt

than wipe it out. The ho'n. the.-.'Postmaster- ; General gave .a personal illustration of that question, which; however: much it might improve their, ideas of .his extreme liberality, certainly did hot speak much far his business . capacity. The hon. member said that .if he had a .tenant, and that tenant should be. in .afrearwith his 'rent; he would, forgive him, and ajjoff him to.s.tart .again.. That was.ript: the .general. practic.e,but.it might, beso with . the honourable, gentieman;. lie .did hot think it.was'a wise With .regard, to the : confiscated;■ laiidsi. he'• ptjected : :to giving up .. that asset,;oh",'the same ground. -Hevdid not: i object. to. giyirig up a portion of 'the land in the province of Auckland, as he believed that was not a very, available asset,. He remem- , bered a Beleet committee::which.sat lasfcses- ;: sion on the subject: : ;pf the confiscated land.: - He had a rather:strongidea;tkouglfclie had; . not refreshed his memory, that the confiscated : lands in,the province of ..Taranaki were ,'de-; . scribed as : being"a: : yery : valuable''asset;' if- ? properly'';mahaged/;vHe' ! 'hadVhVai:d that a large Bum'had/on'Cfl.bee'n\qffiered'f6r;them, ■' '■■ .".'Mr Stafford : I have never heard.of ifa '.;., ■. Mr', Reeves :.. Instead of giving them ■ away; . iie.'.would keep.them, over until a better day, JwhenJspme;moriey might :be made;of.tiieni. : There was an item on the; estimates which' he would.like.tb say a few words ibout. That was"Defence."' He.objected .altogether to keeping up./eyen,the,.hucleuß of "a standing army.;, That 'was::they hist remnant of {a; scheme which .must be deemed utterly and completely romantic;; he alluded to the. self-: reliant poliey ; : for it >vas roni an tic' so far as it included the notion of keeping; upa stand:; iug army but of the: revenue of. the colony; He believe 1 , that ..the day .was not far distant, when the defence of the-North; Island: must be put into the hands .of, the settlers pi- the North Island.. That was the only reasdnabie plan of self-reliance—toHembody a. certain proportion of the" militia; and make them dp their duty like meni; It,wasperfectly reasonable . that the ..defence : of the .North Island; shouldv reste.ip. ,;;the; liandß;;.;pf * ,! \W Eettlers':'.of.. tliat'.island. More" than: that,. the "system -'.' of "settlement prevailing. must* : be given. Iip; ; The colony will never be able to permit that Island to he settled athap-hazard, .. and I remote, outlying''. settlements,. however dietastefulit might sound, would have to be . withdrawn. A,mode of settlement;should

be!established that, would not allow:,the enlargement of: our:: borderswithout security that they can be,held. He would like, to say.a word or two upon the consolidation; of loans. The, term appeared to him the only weak'point in'.tbat scheme.. He did not" see,, moreover, how. it could he made entirely a voluntary operation. He thought that the Government would "be doing a wise'thing if ;■ they took: v 'the measure ;'in;; ; hand a little ■ more strongly.. Instead of ;■' allowing ''. an. : indefinite period for ;,he.; considered : three years .an •-indefinite period for such a financial .transaction—the time: that ought "to; elapse over which ex-; changes could be made, should be fixed at the limit of six months. What with telegraphs and steam communication, six months was; a long time, and; those interested in financial operations which told to their advantage must be very much out of the world if they did not hear of them within that time.:.; He thought the operation 'would' be; successful, and, a great.;boonl'.'Vto;';"the^Ccolony; ;.-^but-r it; mightvb'e done; much more advantageously in the: : shorter'; Those .who would hot exchange - their '■; bonds. y within -that

time were only persons who would, hang: 0n...: for : the sake of making, something more out . of it than they; would at first:. .If a treason- , able limit were fixed, it would .'be .a. gain rib }■ the colony;. The loans could be /Consolidated;;. oil a firm basis in one-sixth.'part'of the/tinie; proposed...: There were many .'objections; to ■ having"''a-'- transaction of..that .'importance' floating over a period of.three years,; He un-; derstood that the Government liad'withdrawri ; the proposition to stretch the limits of the ; I Three Million Loan Act/--He believed the : Government had been badly.advised by the ; Crown agents, who lie did. not think /were . qualified.. t6 :give.' the^'best; advice /on" such... a:: matter; /Such- ; would liave:::negatived/^ll;the; good that was 'propounded by the: yery : .able'scherne'. of : consolidation./.He- .would not; follow,the example : of those,members.who; thought 1 it "the correct :.tbmg to speak against the Government arid then vote for them;. He could see : riotuing'iti the proposition that would benefit: the ; colony, ;:it "appeared ty proceed:; from; , waht.of..courage": on;.the part of the Govern;rnent; to face the difficulty of :the"cpuntfy. In; . fact, it was sitriply a compromise.; On. that ground, though; feelingj;the difficulty,of.'the Government,' aW isiricerely ■• 'sympathising ; with tlierri,.he,felt ■called .upbh:.to,recbrd : .biß : : voteagainstthem; . '• WEpNEtIDAT, Sui;T. 11. ;thb. surplus nEyisN.UKS'.ii'iLL; ■:' : "MrFiTziiisitnEKT, iii moving the second ■ : reading,saidf rdb;notintend to detain the ':. Hbuse.long.in speaking on this measure, -It; '. is extremely simple,; and forrns.:paft-of;"-.the; [ .financial, proposals of .theQovemment:; and; j after the. lengthened debate to whi'oh we:haye , been, -subjected, lion, members; mu's't'-iiave- ;; made up -their ■minds whether they approve % oridisapproye of it. If I had to describe tlie ■ bill shortly, I might say that it is a bill for ' the relief Of the prbvintic of Gtago from a

large.debt, inasmuch as.ji'er, debt:.to;tlie. colony to-day, under ; the Surplus Revenues Act' lrer. of.^s^oiio.'of.tliat ';• amount.} or, injjotlior words, 1 the colony.yill.tlieniiaye;given Otiigo a Post Office., and: some other .costly edifices. I; wou 1d ; d ni;v.' ut te lit ion ■to the; calculation whicli. acobmpaiiiea: .this bill. BiicwiiVg .tlie method ■, ini which jtlic adjustment js.mnde, There were .certain' sums distributable.^under thp. .^urp!us. lieveiuiea Act, mid. ; tlicso sumß; liayo.Becn./exceeded■ by. : £183,000; ; . The way. ;i : ii''..wlii( , .h:'itißproposed.tq- settlo.tjic account, isclearly: set; forth :in tlie ; .'sttitenicut of .tlip ■nietho.d'ufadjustmentwhieli is;already.in.the; hands of lion, members,■ The result is .that thisoyerdraft:^ by)(i/payment.of ; and the/.Government stands jn;; the. position'■■■of a.liquidator,! The'.;ojilysexception : 'tb tliat-' i?'::tljo ense- of 'Marlborough; whichhusiha'dimposed upon- it owing '.to the operation of the Surplus 'KcyeiiUGS Act. a task/which it was. impossible forittgi. perform,'. Marlborough Ayiis entitled! ■to' sur])iuß.reveiiiie,~:biiv charged willi. greater burdens than they'were 1 able.tb meet; It is'accordingly'■ proposed to reiease-Marlbbrough':- from tlie- payinent of: JEIii.OOO. ■■.it;is..proposed to take tliat amount ■ from , the..-provinces of'-/Nelson'- and' Wei-" iiiigton, which, will leave the-result- lis I hive'. contemplated, .1. do .not think it necessary to, isiiyany more in- asking the House to artirni : tiib;pririciplespf this bill, When weremem,ber.tlieion)t.tirae we have been considering these questions, and that we■■ have .'severalother bills to consider, as well as ■'tlic'esti■niitfes'-; to. go; into,- and: 'considering' the-ad-, -vatieed period, of. the session,, the House Ayill. :agree : ,witii-.-me. that' they ought, ■■ without; further :deiavj to affirm the bill, or otherwise ■refuse it. The Government, however, is qiiite in the hands of the House. : -|\lr Stevens would wish to know whether Ministers were aware, or had satisfied themselves,.i.liat .the- distribution for; the settle-' meiit.of the account was in itself equitable to the provinces; It appeared to him that as .bbrrro.wed money would be required to 'effect tjiis settlement certain inequalities would be .'created. He was not prepared' -to; say tliat-' even if it should turn out to beinequitable ' he.should.desire to offer any strong opposition tp.'it,- provided.-it could be shewn tliitit would not be. likely to have the (effect ofmaintainirigiu a position of expensive government parts of the colony which, through their own process of government, were unable to carry on without financial relief.. If.tliat were to be the effect, as he: expected/he thought it would be in every respect better that such relief should lb afforded.in a.perfectly clear manner, and that .itshpuldnpt.be afforded for the mere sake ,of settling up accounts. He did not think it 'would be-'satisftictory Unless it could beshewn that the necessity of settling- accounts was of more.benefit, than the inconvenience and the injury which was likely to arise from the inequalities that might be created and: the unnatural ■ maintenance of indigent Provincial Governments. Mr Gracroix Wilson, C.8., said it was a proposal to borrow £268,000 on the one hand, and give the provinces £IB3,BSS: 7s Gd with tiie.other. it appeared to liira to be a suicidal act; Though' he did not pretend to be a financier he could understand a.few figures, If the provinces were to pay their debt there ■wpuid.be■ available'i£lß3/iSB 9a Gd; then put off the telegraph extension and- another sum t is available, to the amount, of £4~,412-; delay j the building of lighthouses and this would save the Treasurer another sum of £19,725, and we have a total sum available of 4250,825 ■ 93:. 6d. Another .£IO,OOO are required .to .make up the 4260,000 which the Govern merit proposed to borrow, The sum of £] UQO per annum would be saved oil the item, of the salary of the Governor; and, if the proposal to put a stop to the volunteer capitation allowance was acceded tOj another sum would, be available towards the £IO,OOO ieqiired as above. • Doubtless other :iet:emihmentS: could be made, and there was really no necessity for borrowing >; any more money. He had in former: sessions; entreated the. Treasurer to .compel the provinces to pay the, sums which, they owed to the eoiony,.and he now begged/feaveto reiterate that,request; Mr Tiuverssaidif.hon,.members looked at the bill in the light.thrown upon it by the Colonial Treasurer, it would be found to be a compromise with a view to neutralize the votes of lion, members, who might-otherwise oppose the Government. Anukland, being : necessitous, was to receive £25,P00. The Auckland members would accept that. Otago . might be, divided,, as many members might ■'consider/it M advantage, to be relieved of ■ £Bo,Puo,by. pay inent.of; £25,000. MrßEip-. Not'Otago more than any other provinces. . MrTRAVEKS: She is relieved of her debt at tlie. rate of five shillings in the pound, That-was an attractive .proposition.-. That "lustrated, in ; a manner, what had been said

by the Commissioner, of Custouts.with regard. so to Buying the. votes, or neutralizing oppp- ■■.:<s sitiduin that. House, ■As ; ,regarded Mart-.-.g{ .borough;- ; .she 'was...perfectly;;.safe,;;and ; her to members would no doubt be fouud.to Vote {n for; any. proposition: .tliafc;relieye'd,her of the; ' s [. lobligaiiiin to'pay £i.2,0U0., Welliirigtpri would. ;' g ' a be:divided, though out of £.l2,oooshewasi it only to get £6,000... Half a loaf was bettor ..fa than no bread,, and some hop. members would a ] ;riotspurntliehalf:lpaf r -Tarshakiwas:weak;; '. her-three members madeilittie;odds wfienthey ; S c were, to be ..pitted..against : tlie fouvteen or j-jj :fl£teen. : pf some of:the6ther:prpvinces.,..S6'me £ hdnLmemhers. woul(l:he content as;regards' ra Nelson... Then : Southland was neutralised,' .# ■-. being undecjtlie Sbyerfl-- \\ .rhent;-: ">li was an; exceedingly well-balanced .'.£; arrangement altogether, .by which, some fi parties.werie.neutralised;'and;. ; some .satisfied'."' '$ It distributed sugar-plumsval^rdund^butthe iargest;humber of to the. y most votes.., .'Therewas the'policy where, the. provinces' were strong. ;.-It was' a i species:of:" j] political bribery. He.(Mr Travers) objected i| ! . to it m'(oto.;:.lf:'the;prdvihces;.w and carry'out certain functions,let the House :f vote sufficient reyeniie-for the purppse.: '■■■ n \ .-An HonhMEJi&i. What;about 'Canter-; ( ' ? bury? .■■.,-.■;'. ..■;'■-,. :':;Mr;TßAyEßS.:.:;Cariterhury was perfectly : disinterested : in- the:, matter. ..She, received; '■] £618;,.;1t was ; something so small as. not.-to ~\ make any, perceptible, difference; ■':. . AnHbh.MEMBEa : She.has to; surrender :, ; jE36;oGO. '[[''■■ .'" "< 'J. ;Mr; Stevens;: How about the charges on '; i : the loan? ■..' . .:.■' j ; : :;. Mr Stafford: Nobody .doubts that Can^;; L , terbufy ; ] y.ber says'Gariterbury is. hot interested, . . "",; . .-:". ■Mr.; , TBAvXß's'':..',.Th'e-...differepce: between •■; t : £354,598; which was distributed,';; and/ the i

£3ss,2l7,'which/wbuM ■: ■was £6iß, so tiiat she was really ciiathterested. ; : If thefiguref.were ; ■■ siblefor it;'.vThere: tliejr were, 'He/should- : : like to/see the/whole'.(if /the, estimates; -, gone" , through/before lip.:.would, be prepared to '■ accept such a proposition.; . . //.:' ;.' Mr/Hall, said, tlib: lion, member .(Mr , ■Trovers),. shewe/l- clearly enough that ctlie; ■arrangement, wiis ..a Very good : . arrangement for .all parties. ,p it. wns.dgqoil .tiling for all round, then it was gbod.for thecolpiiyi.;/ /MrTKAVEits/ It Js/a good:.tiling at the .iacriflce of. £140,0.00 to. the cpibny; , Mr Hall .said/there whb ,; no sacrifice in -the .matter..:.. But he. rose particularly to refer.to the ■remarks which had been.made upon "words alleged to have, been., spoken by .the "Commissioner of: Customs in a former debate. ■There.'"was'. a-niiaapprehe.iisioti = wi.tli: rbgard; .to.those ;word9; Tliiiy had .been explained: by the lion,; tlie; Golonial Secretary. That. "explanation in the. -Hansard,-' i . : which lie would/read to the Ilbuse; .Allii-i sidi'v iiad lieen .made to nn assertion'that/lie■': Government endeavoured to obtain votes,: : /wlitqli was:entirely:ideiiicd. With regard to : : t.lint had been made to the- . Vpiiarg ng uppn; : Nelson and; Wellington the. aniriunt due from the.prpvinceofMarlborqiigltj ■■'.■ he thought it wosperlilaps not an. unnatural one, v. if - Canterbury were concerned, ■ ; }ie; 'should* be also tempted' to tom- ■ plain,, but he/felt that, lie 'could not do. ! :,so. with; iustice. . The. truth, -was; that the ?■ vsiirriCharged upon Nelson, anil. Wellington qn 1 account : : 6f Marlbprpugh was only a small, ;. portion of the legitimate revenue of that proviiice.which had .been collected at Nelson aiid Weliirigtprii lie did not think that ' t Canterburyiiad received an undue share of ~ the customs revenue,■ A large amount of

dutiable, goods .was every year introduced into that province from Oto.go and Nelson, the revenue arising from which was received by thoso two provinces. When, however, ut portion of. : goods consumed in Nelson were imported by way of Greymouth, a Canterbury port, the revenue arising therefrom was halved 'betweenthe two provinces, although /Cainerburywiia charged with tho whole qx.ileusesi of the 'customs establishment there.

;jlc.jliqugliit, : /therefore, that the more the Nelson, imembers pressed the matter, the worse they/would come off. The bill would, iie.trustedj.piiss without delay. It was an mtegral.pa'rt of the financial arrangements of the''Government, and ho did not see bow tlie-rrest /of/Me policy could ho carried out without ib; : -- :

Mr ';MpORiioiJSB intended to vote for the second: reading:of the Bill, but would not like hon. members to think be was doing it ■altogether .with his eyes shut. He was prepiired..tp.':.nmkej:.fairly and frankly, a sacrifice iii .the interests.of the colony, as it was quite evident.tliat.it.was necessary an effort should be inade.tojniaintain Auckland if she was to exist as.' ii/separate province. He believed ■Auckland: "could manage her own affairs much : better :than the General Government could db/for her; and he should, therefore, assist tlie/.Government in carrying any reasonable proposal which was intended to support; tli'at-"local Government. He could not helii calculating the expense to his own province; .andiie.found that it was a proposal exceedingly interesting to that province ipbked.at|rom;a..comparative point of view, it was .the habit of far-seeing and highmiuded.men tb.reduce matters to that standard.'. 'He"had arrived at the conclusion that Canterbury;■■' : so far from deriving any benefit frpni the.concessions of the Hon. the Colonial Treasurer, wasa.loser of £1,700 a-year. The only-advantage he could see was that the sclienie' ; was "a- settlement of an account, although at. a much greater loss to Canterbury than t'p any other province, The whole sum due'from the province, was £183,000, and the Canterbury share was about £37,000; the interet On £183,000 at 7 per cent, was £12,8.10, aiHl:bn;,£3',ooo, amounted to £2,590. ;He must call'attention to the fact that Canterbury "contributed fully one-third of the whole revenue of the colony, and was likely to contribute a much larger proportion in 'each'.succeeding';year, as it was giving evidence of'ii considerable expansion, Thus it would' appear 1 tli'at Canterbury was to pay -lis- annual'interest on one-third of £183,000, I a- sum' equal to £4270, That amount, less £2590. interest on the same sum the Hon.

the Treasurer pretended to remit, would leave a balance against Canterbury of £IOBO annual increase Of her real present indebtedness. He 'had given the Government his assurance that be would support the Bill, although lie: disapproved of many of its details; yet he did not recognise the liability of Ills province to furnish Auckland with the means for carrying herself through tliPse'extremities into which she had fallen through exceedingly bad management on the part bt the General Government, There was another'ground upon which the Bill might be ■•taken exception to. A principle was imported into it which was at variance with the Surplus Revenues Act, and with another Bill, the Public Revenues Bill, which they would be. shortly called upon to consider. The Surplus•'jS'evenufcs Act was to operate oii a territorial division, but here it was a novel proposition'altogether, because it was a capitation ■ charge upon the whole colony. By the arrangement proposed, every province contributed' to.the liquidation of the debt in 'proportion to, its population, because the ciistpnis revenue was entirely referable to the amount of the population. The customs revenue bore the general charges of the colony. The'£l33,ooo, the aggregate of varying amounts of debts owing by provinces, was by that bill made a general charge on the colony; : and yet Canterbury, although by the Treasurer's shewing she owed only £37,000, or about one.-fifth of the total arrears, was: called upon to defray one-third of it. If he were in office, he would come dpiyntp the House with the proposal to at ■once-remit-;'everything like Indebtedness all Oyer-the.cblb.nyi and to immediately discharge the provincial loans, so that the burden

would fall equally upon the population, He would then divide the revenue in every part of the colony, without distinction, always reserving the right to cut down the expenditure to suehati' extent as would admit of no surplus being given to the provinces at all. He

was quite convinced that they would come to that at last, arid he was as sure that in three years' time tliey would arrive at that, as that the policy of 1863 had plunged the colony

into a debt of £3,000,000 which it should never have contracted. He would, however,

support the :: bili;:as it was a sacrifice which they liad bargained for years ago, and which they should hot shrink from, however disagreeable. Mr'Fitmerbert would like to refer to some remarks which had been made in the course of the debate. The hon. member for

Selwyh objected to the bill, in an interrogatorymahnerjbydeniandiug whether it was intended to be a bill for propping up expensive i J rovinciai : Governments. He would say emphatically that it had no such object. It had .no object except one that was common to all the.provinces. That remark would be alsoane'ffective reply to the hon. member forChristchurchjandthe House would not

jponiorget.how that hon. member stumbled irid hesitated when he was reminded of the £37,000 ilue'-from Canterbury. The hon. member for Taranaki complained that the bill did not give New Plymouth enough, but tlie lion, member did not take into considerationtlieiproposal with reference to the con-rlsoated-iands. The hon. member had put dowh.ail'on tlie expenditure side, and nothing ba.iiie income side of the case. He thought ihafciflne- province of Taranaki were to say, wedbnot want ;tlie confiscated lands, then the House: could have no reason for disenntinuingitbe subsidy of £2OOO a-year. The lion, member for..Taieri was going to vote foritlie bill, although the only thing he liked about it was the titie; it was obvious, therefore,; that after all there was something in a :hame;; ; ' ; iThVhl3ri. members for Nelson complained about the Marlborough charge. There appeared, however, to be a misapprehension as to tlie amount due by the Province of Nelson, for after all,:she'would have to receive and not fo pay.i The hon. member for Dunedin 'eity'as. usual j.took a course peculiar to him- ■ self./'Hespurned the proposal of releasing theprovinceof jOtago from the payment of £35,000; ; .He could point out to tlie hon. .member that the.matter could be settled witli■but wouhdingithe pride of Otago, as represented ih.the person of the hon. member, by his sending a: telegram down to Dunedin, and presenting the, Colonial Treasurer the next morning with : a cheque for £BO,OOO. He

'wished to say a few words in reference to a ■remarkliiadobythe hon, member for Wairarapa, who said that the Government had modified its financial policy Bince the commencement of the session, so as to make it moresatisfactory to Auckland, .i Mr Bunny, thought his honourable friend was under a misapprehension. They had not 'khown ; what the, policy was until it was .broUßht down,> 'What lie said was, that when the Auckland members had found the policy to be favourable to them, a number who were formerly opponents had become supporters of the Government. : MrliTZflßßUßitT said the hon.memberhad not used the word finance, although he inferred it, from the sense in which the lion, ■member had said that the policy of the ■ Government bad become more favourable to Auckland as the session had advanced. Now '' "lie desired to taty that opportunity of stating ■ that every material feature of the policy of tiie Government had been considered and ■ decided on—that:the financial scheme had Won matured— long before the session commenced, and without the slightest possible : reference to any member. ;'! Mr'Mooiuioosb.— But it was not brought down. .Mr Fitzherijhkt.—lt was brought down • the'first moment he was in possession of the i. (inures,and it was only l>y considerable effort ; that he was able to bring it down when he i. dill.' Had the figures been given him by his I : subordinates earlier, he would have brought -■ilown bis statement earlier. If he had kept i the scheme cut and dried in a box, while he t ferreted about to find what hon. members i thought and how they would net, there might f have been reason for complaint; but it was

not so, as he had declared his financial policy at the earliest possible moment. He now

came to the lion, member for Porirua, who i; always jumped at a conclusion, and paid no t attention to any business before the House, and who was utterly incapable of under- t standing any question of finance. Tlie hun. i member had accused him of talking clap-trap, t lie repudiated the accusation, and he would shew how very little the lion, member knew | of questions of finance, and he hoped ; the House would value the lion, member's arguments accord imtly. Tlie lion, member , had made a long tini'le against Auckland, and had actually brought Wellington in as being made to assist the South in maintaining Auckland, and had saddled Auckland with a debt of £300,000, and tben,when reminded that it was not quite so much, he had said that it was £200,000 but that there was another £IOO,OOO. Now the lion, member was incapable of an untruth, and he was sure that if the lion, member was asked he would confess that be had neither read nor studied the financial statement. If he had ho could not have come down there and told them that the debt of Auckland was £300,000, and then have turned round and said, oh yes, it is £200,000, hut there is another £IOO,OOO. Now that £IOO,OOO was in reality no more a debt of Auckland's than it was of Wellington's. It was quite an illusion of the lion, member, who neglected his parliamentary duties in the most jaunty manner, and who occasionally glided into that House like a midnight ghost, and spoke mysteriously of what he did not understand. They could not deal so loosely with figures a* the hon. member did. Tlie real debt of Auckland wasonly some £170,000 or £IBO,OOO at the outside. The £100,001) alluded to consisted of debentures which had been advanced to the Superintendent of Auckland by a previous Government, when it was believed Auckland was to take over the management of certain confiscated lands, and the money was necessary to work those lands. Auckland had not ultimately taken the lands, and the £IOO,OOO was spent on works of a colonial character, and on a colonial estate. It was absurd to talk of its being a debt of Auckland's. When the lion, member for Westland told him he intended to support the bill, he would not, of course, quarrel with the lion, member's arguments, although they were rather amusing. Canterbury, instead of having to pay £30,000, was to receive £OIB j and yet the hon, member made out that Canterbury lost by the transaction. He was quite at a loss to understand how. But of course it was very pleasing to him to find, that although the hon, member made out that Canterbury lost, still the Superintendent of Canterbury supported the measure. His conclusion was that the hon. member could not have passed a [ higher (although willing) eulogium on the measure. Mr Moorhousb had gone into figures,

Mr FiTzHF.miERT was too well satisfied with the result to dispute his figures. He made a point of not looking a gift horse in the mouth. The House then divided with the following result : For the motion 42 Against the motion 16 Majority for 26 EItIDAT, Sfil'T. 13. On the motion that the Speaker leave the chair, to enable the House to go into Committee. Mr Vogm said, before the question was put, he had tv few remarks to make. He was about to ask, the secmd reading having been affirmed, that the principal motion to go into Committee should be postponed. The principle had been affirmed that there should lie an equitable arrangement of the debts due by the provinces. He asked for the postponement upon the ground that theHousewas not in possession of the accounts. He would be able to advance the most unanswerable grounds for his request, the refusal of which would reflect a stigma on the House that could not be effaced for all time to come. If the Government were to make a final settlement without placing the accounts in the hands of lion, members and all concerned, then there was not anything like justice to he looked for in the proceedings of the House. He (Mr Vogel) quite concurred hi the principle of the Bill, that when a settlement was to be made, those provinoes which had been paid too much should be compelled to recoup, and those which had received too little should have the deficiency made up. But those nffectedby these accounts should have an opportunity of looking into "them, and making such remarks on them as might be found necessary. He asked the House for the postponement as a simple matter of justice, and because lie believed there were in those accounts mistakes and discrepancies, which ought to be inquired into. He would say a good deal at another time in reference to what had fallen from the Colonial

Treasurer, as he was not one who submitted ai to personal remarks without making a reply a: to them. He would shew that there was a a discrepancy between the Treasurer's state- tl ments and those furnished in the tables ap- si pendod to the financial speech. The Colonial c' Treasurer made a great deal of fuss about his n accuracy, but when the correctness of his v figures was questioned, he threw the respon- »p sibility upon Iris officers. The lion, gentleman li was willing to take all the praise, and leave r them all the blame. There were two state- t ments that were not reconcilable, and j furnished a reason why the accounts should c be put in the hands of the House. The hon. 1 gentleman said that the expenditure for the t year, exclusive of amounts paid to provinces, i was £724,658 Gs sd, while the Assistant- s Treasurer made it £833,787, shewing a dif- \ ference of over £IOO,OOO. The latter was the 1 statement of Mr Woodward. According to i the Colonial Treasurer there was available i for the provinces £319,000; but according i to the statement of Mr Woodward there ap- ' peared to be £191,000. He might be told < that the difference was made up by savings in votes, carried forward to the next year's revenue. He (Mr Vogel) held that these savings in votes were virtually ft repeal of the Surplus Revenues Act, and in a settlement under that Act, these savings ought to have further particulars. There was also another element to be taken. into consideration. Tliere was £40,000 due by Southland, which properly was to be recouped out of the loan to be raised to pay off provincial liabilities. He (Mr Vogel) was not able to say whether this £40,000 had been brought into account and charged against revenue. If so, it had been obviously taken off the surplus revenue to which the wholu of the provinces were entitled. Again, there was the interest due by the provinces under the Loan Allocation Act, which bad been brought to account, and which was 60 much money taken from the surplus revenue. But tliere were other grounds. There was an amount of £33,000 saved during the year 1865-6. Hcwasutterly at a loss to understand why his hon. friend the Colonial Treasurer did not refer to that subject, although he had constantly invited lrim to do so. He would say that they were ■ entitled to know whether the £33,000 was 1 carried to the credit of last year's revenue ? | It was in the quarterly statement in the ' Gazette ; but was it carried to the credit of ! the whole year's revenue? In the return the ' him. member had given them he had failed to lake credit for that sum for the past year, I unless, to make his estimates seem more ■ correct, he had added that saving of the prc- • vious year to the revenue of the current 3 year. If that sum had not been added to the 1 revenue of last year, it belonged to the stir- ' plus revenue, and was a reduction, by so ? much, of the debts of the provinces. They f were entitled also to know what savings tliere 1 were in the last v cur. The hon. member hml I great command of jokes and flippant expres- * sums, and always answered him back c with stale jokes borrowed from old noV els—or rather novels which were new to ■' us because they were old lo his grandfather; but when iliey got up to ask questions relating n absolutely to financial accounts, thoy had a e right to an answer. They had not sufficient 't evidence before them of the accuracy of the | e results laid before them, but lie would go ' 3 further, he could give absolute evidence of II what win a mistake or worse Hum a mistake. »t He held in his hand the report of the Audit 10 Committee. It was a cruel thing to have to r3 say th it bis friend the honourable member for ]i Hampden had been in any way implicated in > 8 casting censure on the Government, knowing

how devoted he was to it; probably, however, the honourable member did not see the exact drift of the report, or was overruled by his colleagues. Mr Hauoiiton rose to order. The honourable member was going out of his way to make reflections on his conduct as a member of a Committee. The Si'kakkk said that the honorable member had not seemed to him to ho making any improper reflections. Mr, Vobbi, apprehended that the report of a Select Committee was the property of the House, but be thought he had been rather according a degree of praise to the honourable member for being disinterested, and of having in the question forgotten his general creed, that his only duly was devotion to the Government Benches. They were told in that report that an amount of £17,050 was absolutely taken from the surplus revenue. He would read the passage:—"Tho Auditor of Public Accounts, in his 'Queries and Observations on the Financial Accounts of the Colonial Treasurer for 1865-o,' states that 'explanation is required to be laid before the Audit Committee as to the charge of £17,050, made on account of conveyance of mails by sea, this being the second time the item has appeared as postal expenditure,' To this the accountant of the Treasury replies, that' the sum of £20,000 charged in the account was remitted in November, 1865, to the Secretary of State on account of the balance due by the colony to the mail service via Suez at that date, ft is true that the sum of £17.05 1 was nominally at credit of the reserved fund for this service, but as no cash on account of that fund was in the public chest, the payment was made out of the revenue of the year and charged accordingly.' Upon this the Auditor appended the following observations:—' The Auditor states in explanation that in the statement for the financiil year 18(>2-3, the sum charged to the ordinary revenue on account of the Suez line by transfer to the reserve fund is £13,300. In the statement for the year 18634 the sum similarly treated is £13,000, making altogether £20,300. The surplus revenues in each of the a'oove years were diminished by coi responding sums, Gut of this reserve of £26,300 it is found that £ 1,21)0 was remitted to England in the month of December, 1863, and £BOOO in the month of February, 1865, thus leaving in

the reserve fund a balance on this account of £17,050. In the r:serve' fund for the year 1865-B there are no I transactions on either side of the accounts as regards the Suez lino. So far the accounts are not objected to. But on reference to the ordinary revenue account of the year 1865-6, there will be seen at page 13 an entry of £20,000 for contributions to the Suez line, of which sum ,£17,050 were arrears of former years. It thus appears that instead of these arrears being paid out of the balance of £17,050 which the Treasurer held in bis charge as a reserve for the purpose, it was again charged against the ordinary revenue, and the surplus revenue thus diminished by a corresponding amount, while the £17,J50

remained in the reserve fund. The expla-

nation of the Colonial Treasurer is that there was no cash on account of the. reserve fund in the public chest, and therefore the payment was made out of the ordinary revenues of the year, and was charged accordingly. To this the auditor objects that the Colonial Treasurer in his statement of balance for 30th June, 18P5, shews that there was a balance of £35,190 3s 9:1, in his charge to the credit of the reserve fund, of which balance £17,050 belonged to the Suez line; but whether the Colonial Treasurer had the necjssary cish in hand or not, it is quite clear he had no right to charge the ordinary revenue twice with the same sum.'" To that

report was appended a memorandum by the Assistant Treasurer:— In the memorandum presented by the Auditor-General respecting the amount placed to Reserve Fund in 1865, and not taken into account in making a payment of £20,000 for arrears in respect of contributions to the Suez line in 1866-7, it is quite superfluous to say that the facts as stated by him are strictly correct. On the other side the fact equally remains that the payment of 1860-7 required to be made, and that the money could only be found out of the revenue of the year, winch is only charged with an actual payment, leaving the Reserve Fund just where it was, to be hereafter dealt with as may be thought expedient. The first setting aside of the amount may have been open to objection, but the actual payment of 1866-7, that is to say all the transactions that affect the account of that year, it is submitted are not so " The committee then went on to say : 11 Upon full consideration of this subject your committee are of opinion that the Colonial Treasurer was not justified in charging the Ordinary Kevenue a second time with the item of £17,050 for contributions to the Suez line, while the same amount remained to the credit of that item in the Keserve Fund account. As the surplus revenues have been affected thereby, your committee recommend a re-adjustment of the account." He hoped the honorable member for Hampden would support the amendment, because it was very clear that the re-adjustment had not been made. It was absurd to say that the money was not in the chest, because if it had been »paid to the provinces, it would of course not have been there, but the provinces had no right to be charged a second time with the amount. The Auditor-General's report for 1865-6 pointed out several discrepancies, which made Canterbury, if he recollected rightly, a loser of several thousands of pounds, and Otago a gainer to some amount, This was for 1865-6. He had seen a copy of the report, but it was not published. As far as 1866-7 was concerned, they had neither the Auditor - General's report nor the accounts—nothing but the meagre statements of the Assistant Trea-1 surer on the one hand, and of the Colonial Treasureron the other. WhattheHousewanted to know, if the money had been paid to the provinces in excess of the revenue, was, from what source had it been paid? The hon. i member said that it had been paid, but so I had unauthorised expenditure, and it must ; be brought to account. He could not, with i the meagre information at his command, ■ know whether the £ 183,000 had been brought . to account or not. Wherever it was brought . to account the provinces would be severally i liable for the amount, and it was folly to talk . of making a -present of money for which r they were liable in their proper proportions. t That talking about making presents to the 1 provinces blinded them to the real nature of 3 the transaction. During the two last years 3 there has been an alleged over-payment to 3 the provinces. The lion, member told them i he had not overdrawn the account—that he 1 had not made use of Kxchequer bills, nor of i the loan, The deduction seemed to be that r the £183,000 was paid out of revenue 3 at his command, and, therefore, belong-

ing to the provinces. But if the amount was not paid out of surplus revenue, it would still have to be provided from some source and the provinces would be charged with it. The over-payments ought to be reimbursed in the proportions of the revenue accruing during the last two years, instead of that the reimbursement was based on a calculation extending over nine years. Then Marlborough threw the calculation £12,000 out, and to settle the matter, he gave half to Wellington and half to Nelson. The calculations that had been made were beneficial to Otago mid Auckland, but were manifestly unjust to Canterbury, supposing, which lie did not believe, there was really a debt due by the provinces. During the last year, Canterbury paid more than double the Customs revenue paid by Auckland, and yet, in the final allocation, Canterbury had to receive £38,000 out of the £183,000, whilst Auckland had to receive £43,000. lie had shewn unanswerably lust year, that mistakes had been made which affected Otago by £II,OOO, in the very nutter of division of surplus revenue. It seemed to him that Otago was given too large n proportion of the £183,000, always suppling,which he denied, that that sum was owing. He thought the province of Can terbur.v would say, that it wanted simply a fair adjustment, md to have the thing gone into apart from any political bias, so that a fair settlement might he made strictly under the Surplus Revenues Act, His own opinion was that the £183,000 would dwindle down to a very small amount, if indeed a balance were not left on the other side. He I asked that, before a final settlement was

made, they should have the accounts before them and that these should be also sent to the provinces, so that an opportunity for urging their objections might be afforded, and it was a gross injustice not

to do so, if thelmperial Government Wrought in an Act, saying that the Colony was liable for a certain amount, and tlmt it must he paid, without any re-opening of the question, there would have ken a hovl of rage on the part of the Government, and rightly too, that they would never hear the last of, and yet they acted in precisely the same way with regard to the Provinces, and kid that the proposed arrangement must he accepted as final. _ They were asked to perpetrate an act of injustice which, when i was understood, would excite

the utmost indignation. He knew that there was some prejudice against members of the Provincial Governments; lie was in the un-

fortunate position of being connected with the Province of Otago, as Treasurer. That province was asked to pay £25,000, and whatever wasduo from it would lie willingly repaid, but he must, on behalf of the province, urge that it should have an opportunity of looking into the accounts. T hat was all he asked for. That before (Hugo was adjudged to pay £25,000, it should he able to examine the accounts and to remark concerning them. He trusted that the remarks he had made would

he sufficient to induce the Government to allow the Hill to be shelved for the session.

He believed that the principal ground of the arrangement was, that the Treasurer found

it a very convenient mode by which £2n,000 should be paid to the Northern part of the Colony, but that should not he allowed

to interfere with a fair consideration of the question. He should always sunpirt a fair and equitable division under the Surplus Revenues Act, whenever it expired, and he would be glad to see the matter postponed with that object; and if any disputes' as to Ilia different amounts- arose they could be decided by a commission. He utterly repudiated the idea that he took action because the scheme pressed upon Otago mire than upon other provinces, or that it was for t':ie purpose of postponing any settlement hsyond a time when the information was available upon which to base it. He begged to move, as an amendment, "That inasmuch as the particulars of the accounts for the financial year 18C6-7 are not before the House, and it is undesirable, in their absence, to attempt to make a final settlement of the accounts between the provinces and the colony up to that date, the House will this day six months resolve itself into committee to consider the I said bill."

Mr Reynolds seconded the amendment. Mr FrraiEEßEiiT said that the lion, member had just favoured the House with one of his characteristic—«• post facto— latter Lammas speeches, coming a day after the lair; and with more than his usual acrimony he began by appealing to the Government to take his arguments into consideration, and lashed it at the close, as if that was the way to obtain favour. He should say very few words, and would toll the lion, member that it was a pity he did not apply his ladies at the proper time, without quoting from the old novels and ancient books, from which the hpn. member believed he drew those illustrations which amused and edified him, referring more particularly no doubt to that book of '•' Elia," in which the origin of roast pig was described. He should not pretend to follow the lion, member into the figures he had trumped up, but would tell them that if there was a great deal more truth in them than they really had, it shewed small respect to the Government and to the House for him at this time to say he was not going to vote against the second reading, and that he affirmed the principle of the bill, yet afterwards to say everything tigainst it. It would have shewn more respect if the lion, member had stated that reasons of a private nature had prevented him from being present at the second reading of the bill, but be would now, with the leave of the House, make a few remarks on it. There was another reason why the House should not g,i with him, even if it did desire to open np the subject again. The lion, member had stated that he was Provincial Treasurer of fltago, and that he was quite ready to pay this £SO,OOO if it was due; but lie (Mr Vosjel) informed the Proviiiei;il Council, in making his financial

stateinc't, that as to certain overpayments to the pruviiue, under the Surplus Hevenues Act, it was a question which he had not taken into account. There was so great a discrepancy between that statement and what the lion, member said now that his speech:

(lid not deserve a reply; and he (Mr Pilzherbert) was not going to make one. If there were arrears in this account, they would be equitable, and, therefore, when it was proposed to settle a large amount of £183,000 by payments interprovincklly of Httle.more than £30.01)0, even supposing £1:3,000 was not due in ioto, what a large margin there remained. The lion, member had spoken with regard to savings, but the whole of his speech was as perfect an affirmation of the principle of the bill as it was possible for an opponent unwittingly to offer. What was the meaning of savings ? They were artful devices .to evade the provisions of the Surplus Revenues Act—that Act to which lie proposed to give a death blow. " Savings" meant that the money was put by as it were in an old stocking to prevent it coming vithing the grasp of the Surplus Revenues Act. Therefore, when the lion, member asked whether these savings were represented by money, he (Mr Fitzherbert) would state his conviction that the hon, member was possesed of special sources of information if he chose to tell them. The hon. member did not lack special information; and the House had had ample information.. The hon. member asked that this bill should be shelved, on the ground that the accounts were not before the House; but if that were the case neither the Colonial Treasurer nor the officers in the department deserved the confidence of the House, for the documents, signed by (he principal permanent officers had been brought down shewing how this problem of distribution was founded. If. these documents were not to be relied on, the only remedy was not fresh accounts, but fresh hands. He hoped the House would record its voteagainsttbc amendment. They had affirmed the principle of the bill, which was the first of the incisures necessary for carrying out their policy, and were now asked to rescind a decision they bad already arrived at. The Government was right in interpreting the feeling of the House to be in favour of the policy as a whole, although there might be a difference of opinion with regard to details. The House could not say it had not ample information, and the only conclusion, he could arrive at was that the hon. member was unable to comprehend the problem, simple as it was. Mr Jolmb thought that it was extremely irregular lo propose such an amendment at that stage of the bill, and not on the second reading ; just as the discussion which took, place on the previous evening on the Tiniaru and Gladstone bill was irregular. Except on most important questions, and under special circumstances, lie thought lion, members should not attempt to revive a former debate upon the mere question of going into committee. Although lie had not giveu any very special attention to the calculations upon which this assumed debt of the provinces was based, he believed that the figures brought down might be accepted as a probably correct and final statement of account between them and the colony. He had at first felt opposed to the idea of .remitting the money due by the provinces to the colony; but eventually decided to vote with the Government, partly because he saw no prospect of getting the money hack, and also heouse their proposals for winding up the whole account seemed as simple and a? satisfactory as any settlement of so ut? satisfactory a subject could well be. The provinces had all been made out debtors to the colonv; but it was not possible for tlifm to pav back the money, seeing that they themselves and the Government united in declaring that not less than X 337.000 must be given them out of this year's revenue, to prevent an utter stagnation, ft nh regard to this saving of £33,000, about which a good deal was saiil last year, and to which the hon member for the goldfluldi had again alluded in his speech, ho would only say that it had not escaped his observation that the amount was included in the first quarter's statement of last year's revenue; but as tho financial statement nude no allusion to it, and the

presumption .was that the, amount liiid riot. been''overlooked.in .eßtiraatingJthe,.position and debtsof the profincesi ■under the present financial .'proposals of the Government ■ v he liad better follow the example of the Cuiqmal-Treasurer,' arid in.;,the obser- ; rations lie addressed to tlie.House pu'ii former, oecasionj; hot.to complicate furtherj4arid;uhnecessarily :■ a '.'subject. already cbiii|))icatcdj:::by;' inskingf Hnjvreferenee;.to. that question of the £33,000 assuiii-'d savings.'" Mr Cbacroit .Wilsox, C.8., did not i.wisli to lietaiii.the House niore ; .'than /-two-minutes; He trusted: he .should .not- be..;misunderstbod: as was going, to pursue, 'He had fought tlie.b:ittle once,'■': aii d op pose (I the. policy ;as a scheme,;, hut haying been; once thoroughly beatcivon thatquesiipnV he slipul d never be;a party to enacting a. see <e,sucli" as ■had taken place on the previous iiight... He. would■■accept '.tl'ie beating, he : .had.got.: aitd Bh.iiuldact accordingly. ■:.'■ ")■'..: The motion, iliat the words:proposed to lie.' left out sinnd part of the question, was carried on a division :. ■For the resolution' ti . „. 49 .Against ... ... 6 Majority for , ... 37

-are worth it (lie House would be quite willing to supply themoney. H will lis remembered ill reference to the confiscated hiiiiis, that tlie lion, member foi; Miitaura, who is :>ii iiuthority on the question, strongly urged' (hivt they should he sold for what they would fetch, ami considered them valuable. i iiow come to speak of tlie Loan Allocation Act of 1 '81!5. Now, Sir, it is ?er:y ditlieult to Sjwsiiic of this matter ill that. temperate spirit and with that calmnesswhich 1 tliiiik tiiijjli-t befittingfor the occasion. This prapoial docs i.uipeav to bemore particularly indefensible in the'face of a Ministerial, statement made tint long ago—a statement which, lit all events, emanated from the Government benches—that there was little or no donbi that tlie Northern Island would, in course of time, and at no distant date, carry Hie largest share of the population. Now, .Sir, 1 as':; whether, if that, is to tie, taken as having any value, it is not a monstrous proposal that, in. the face ot' it, we should lie asked deliberately to give away

a sum of ivi'mevQf thisiiiagnitude? If the

Nortliorii. Island is to he the greatest part of the colony, and that which is .most valuable and most populous, is it, not a perfect absurdity that we. should make a present-of this money? It does, appear to- me that it would have been much better that tlie matter should be left exactly where it stands —that the amount required should have been duly advance I, and that it should have remained as a debt dtu to the oniony, and. not to give away the amount under such circumstances as are proposed. I must -remind the Hon. the Treasurer that capitalists have'taken up'land, and population has. settled iii the Middle lslandj on the understanding that certain financial Acts of ParliauuMi: were in existence and were not at all likely to be repealed; but if you are going to place on the Middle Island a very large shave of the expenditure, more than has been settle 1 upon it, I say that a very apparent and frightful injustice will be done, and one. which is utterly indefensible. I have never, nor so far as I am aware, has any meiuter from the South., for a moment ignored the fact that we ought to assist the provinces which are in difficulty; there has never been any pretence that it was oiif business to trample upon the provinces which - bad got into but on the contrary that 1 we should assist them. But I never: heard when it was said that a province had a certainty of recovering its credit, that it was equitable and just that we should set them straight by a donation, and we have beard no reason but that the province Could not meet the demands upon it. If the Pror : vince of Auckland had brought down evidence to the House that it had taxed itself

severely, and had undergone poverty to meet its engagements, or that it had taken any strong action to that 'end, it would haye justified thii belief that it had exhausted its resources in order to mc-et. its engagements, and there would be some show of reason in

.bouiiug -down to. the House and asking that a very liberal spirit should be •displayed towards it. I say that ■there;'; is .110. si.ich thing. from, all I can gather from the. provincial estimates,, ami ■irbra: the. Auckland newspapers, that state of things has.;iiot; happened, and;l,say it is. tin /unfair'proposal and. a-very nnjust.and. unde;sirable!thiiig;.'and,,S.i.r,- f.- c'ertaiiily-. think that ■tlie/prpyinceofTaranakiinpart . dealt w.i.th.-in. a very r'ein'afkabie nianner.dn this propb?al..--I:il()..ii()t know that.we of tlie South 'have .ever shewn anything ■but... a desire to sympathise/with the misfoftuhesbf :Tarana.kh and, with-one or two exceptions, there In* .always-been a desirefhat.tiiatprovince should have the best tre.iti.neni at oiifhanifsv- 'What does, the honorable gentleman/ propose -to do ? He.,seems to me to occupy the.-ppsi.tiim Of .the unjust steward.-. -He-goes to Tarauaki- and. says, '• How mUch ,do you owe?" Thean--.swer.,is, -'136,000,;" and,he says, ''Takeyour 'billand,write-;npthing.- ! ' That is,the proposal of...tlie honorable gentleman; Jmtldo- riot 'think''Tiira'iiaki will a'ceept/that position, and ■l.anv.bouriii. to say I.hope. .hetfer ■■ things .rf that; province. The 'lionbralile,..gentleman,, :Sir/iias referred^ :'pbjicy. : as : the .compact of; : lSo6> Me;g/tve:us, a/sort Of ■■summary of bis.bwh views on that policy, aiKf ..siigges.teiltha'tb.iit.forthat.ppiicy thefpan of 1863 would, not. liave,.been: necessary. I always understood,that the ..members pf/the .Northern Island: certainly did to. the. ■policy or compact of -island can ■if he .shewn that we of the South have, ever .taken anythingnipre than .had been agreed Upon, or adjudged to us by the. Ilpuse?. I;do not ..quite see the advantage myself, of the-lion. Treasurer, or any. Colonial Treasurer, ex-

pressing a strong. Opinion -about the inexpediency of that arrangement. Such a course is-calculated to give great alarm. Hesav; he does not wish, to upset it, but he urwts'it on .the-members of the Southern islanefas a reason for giving up the allocated debt, that tlie-policy of .i-85'6 had conferred great benefitsupontbem. In answer to the allocated debt proposal I will use the honourable gentleman's own words, ''A barg-iin Ya bargain all the wflrl.d over." Those are the word's of the honourable pentlfinian,and if they applied in the one ease they must apply in the other. I am very glad that the honourable gentleman'is going to take up the position' of redressing tlie wrongs of. the North against the aggressions -of the South, because that gives a certain clearness to the proposals of tlie Government, and. makes them somewhat more

intelligible, and I think they will be thus understood more cletrly and. appreciated for what they- are worth in the South. Put, Sir, I. certainly do. say, in reference to this loan allocation, that if the province of Canterbury ever falls into misfortune, "and JitJ is quite possible she may, we wili help ourselves before we appeal to the colony, and I will

just read another part of the letter-I-liave ■ before' spoken of:-" I fear that Canterbury "will soon follow Auckland, unless, as yoii ' flayj ; .we-'cut down unsparingly our, .expenditure,; commercially we are going from.bad to/worse." I do not want to- procl uiii tlie.rnisfoi tunes of the province to which I belong, but. it is a public .matter, and .one/zwhich this House should be made aware of, that it is in an unfortunate position; andis it to be expected that 'inem'tiers ! frpm. that..province are going to vote, for this-;proppßal-t!iat they are-Koing to saddle their own •"province, which is already: groaning under circumstances 'of' ..misfortune, with charges wliicli itoiight not to pay, and to say to their own constituents, that they have deliberately, in their, place n this House, taken the bread out of their mouths by so doing? I, for one; wiil hot agree to; aueh a ■proposal., I.say it will be.a distinct, breach of faith towards the men who, .have , sent ..us up here to record our votes in .their ihterestj to do'so-

; 1/ MrHAu: Will the honourable gentlerriaii ' tell us/wlmt the breach of faith consists .in f , Mr Stkvens : It consists in this, that we ..r; are sent here to do our best'for our constitUr ■■'.- e n ts. fairly, with the law asit stands, and/to ■do what is just between different parts of the >. colony.- Lsaythat when one part of the /■ colony isimrriisfprtunei it is no reason why ./ other parts, whether prosperous or u'nfortu- ■'. nate, should deliherate'y make presents of ;.// sums of money, which have been already advanced,.when;they mav possibly, and not im- .'/, probably-fall. into it yorrespbndng condition ;■'"■'■; themselves. It.is not just, and on that gr'm'nd ;: ? : I am ; not filling to Support it: I. might per/;hapß:,to: recall -that' expression, ■" breach of. . faitn'j" aslshpuldbc.sorr.ytogive any offence, , ... especially, to my.-liofi. friend the. Pbstm.as cr-..;-.-General. I liave. to ill ink'the'.House., for the patience with whiclutliiis:heard■■riie,'' I wish ■ -" I could have spokeiimyhiindhetterVbecause I' : believe thefinancial policy' of .the .Government involves:.such large/questions as we do not ; jarid may not see the'end of for many sessions. '. There are many things ■ in./.the ;p.oliey..which .'"are advisable! but there are others 'which- are : ■': riot at all desirable. I. haye endeavoured to /.speak my mind fairly ;■'. if; I;have/spoken '.warmly, I would ask lion, menihersto pardon '/.Vme, but the question of allocating,the debt/is ■ //; something mote than ii/qiicsti.i>h//?f nVoriej. it '■/.■ is establishing a precedent which .is.; iin fair,. /: and I will not Buppbft.any/proposal:.'of; that

kind, .1 therefore/now beg/topfoposo; ns.-riil: ■anieudmejiti'•,—" TlVat whilst it-is. inexpedient in theopihionof this House .thht : such- provinees of -('lib ■'Northern. Island as; are ;.o.liitTge> .nbl.e.withcertiiiiisums under.tlic...provisioiis of ';Tiie Loan/Allocation Act,. relievfflvfi ; oinsue!i'iial)iiil)',:;it vis; expedient thatthe-operationof.tlic.:saul--Act,'hi' suspuulcd dnniigiiife current financial year.'' ".

"Mr'Ciii!Tis'.;:Sir,' as;bne of tlic members referred to by the hoiuinehiuer for.Sclwyn, as oiieoftiiOse who have -giVcii full support to the Government, and are mostaUxioiis to continue to do so, 'hut. who are unabletq swallow the financial propositions that have been ninde to the House,-.1 am anxious to say a few words as to the reasons'why I must Withdraw tluitsiipporc from the -Government. So far as regards the consolidation of loans 1 think there is but oiic opinion in this Übiise, and that is that it is,highly desirable; and as to the mode/of doing it, l.have no objection to raise. I was only, astonished to hear the arguments of the lion.- -member- for the Goldfields on the subject, especially as to theadvisahility of providing a sinking fund, f hope that it is'a point the House will consider j as an essential part of the proposition. But When we come to the question of the gains that -might 'accrue through- the consolidation of the leans, in that por.tioU o.f.the proposition I entirely dissent from the Colonial Treasurer. The Government proposes th.atthc whole of such gains shall bo'divided amongst; the provinces in proportion to their/indebtedness, but what does that proposition mean ? It means that the provinces who are most in■dehted shall benefit most—'it means that those provinces whose extravagant raising of loans is the cause of the whole colony being obliged to give Its guarantee for their liabilities, shall receive the largest share of the gains, Sir, I cannot look upon that as a just and-.fair proposition, It is. possible that the .gain front this consolidation of the loans may not be very large or serious, but still, on the other hand it is quite possible that iii a favourable state of the money market it will be very considerable. It appears to me, Sir, that the money so raised should not be handed Over to the province at all, but (hat it should be locked up as strictly belonging, to. the colony. The profit that may arise, will arise from the colony taking over to itself the liabilities of the provinces,; 1 say, therefore, that the profit should belong to the colony, and-that the indebted provinces should not be entitled to the proceeds which may arise from the colony taking these liabilities upoil its shoulders. Upon this point, therefore, I. differ most decidedly front the Government proposition. Again, as to foregoing the i 183,000 due from the provinces to the colony; upon that point also I disagree most materially with the Government, I do not see any reason for foregoing that sum, and I say that if any province cannot immediately pay the amount overpaid to it, let the amount stand over, and if the interest on it cannot be 'paid, let that also stand over rather than resort to this measure. But I think that many of the provinces are perfectly well able to pay their liabilities, and that the "amount should betaken from the proportion of the. surplus revenue as it is at present distributed amongst tlieiii. I see no reason why the colony should forego these sums; and I do not believe that we are in a condition to do so. If we had an overflowing exchequer, we might givetheprovinees even a greater sum than is at present proposed—give them more to spend—but under the present circumstances of the colony I do not see why we should forego thesesiims. As regards the mode of division among the 'Provinces, supposing that it is divided at all, I see no objection. There is one- small item, .however, which affects the province of which. I aura representative,on whichlniust say a word—l tne.ii the £12,000 due by the Province of Marlborough and to be charged to/the Provinces of Nelson and Wellington, If this was to be a matter lying simply between these three provinces, t should think, the provision a perfectly fair one, because Nelson :and Wellington have derived considerable from the imports into .llarlbo.niugli; but looking upon it in. connection with the remainder of the proposals of the Government I look upon it as'ji.ltogether unfair, for kelson at all events, and probably for Wellington. I think that iii tlie general white-washing of. provincial liabilities there should be no exception, and; I do not.see why a special burden should belaid upon Nelson anil Wellington, while the remainder, of the provinces, are released -from very large sums. Sir, as.regards reliiv- ■ .quishing the claim of the colony upon the lands, it is* perhaps, the best thing we could do, and I am not prepared to 'oppose it; but.as regards-the proposed repeal of the Loan Allocation Act, I agree fully in . tlie opinions already expressed by the lion, member for Oamarii and the lion, member for Selw-yn. It appears to me, Sir, that there is no reason for foregoing the claims under that Act, particularly in view of the future' prosperity of the North. Island. I think the time will come when that debt can well be paid by the North Island, and I believe that the way in which we can best relieve the difficulties of a portionof it is not to. press, for the interestoti the sums due under the Act. And-now, Sir. I come to that particular part of the financial, policy which is most disagreeable to me-that is the proposal \o consolidate the whole o'f the revenue of the colony, and. to divide it between the colony and the provinces in equal portions. It is a proposition for continuing that very partnership Which we biive so of ten,heard the Colonial Treasurer himself deploring—it is a proposition by which the great inconveniences arising.out of that temporary partnership tire to be perpetuated. The accounts between ■ the colony and the provinces may he simplified, certainly, but it appears' to me that the result will be precisely the same; for it is a proposition to'perpetuate the evils'. tliiit re-' suit from the money raised by one Legi'sla- ■ ture being handed over by other Legislatures to spend. I have always been of opinion, Sir, that the true system is to throw the onus and odium- of raising revenue upon the shoulders of those who spend it. Unless you do that, you will never induce true economy among the Provincial Governments; but Icontend that, not only is this handing over of ■ money to Provincial Governments to spend without their being brought into contact with .the taxpayers, an inducement to extravagance -on the part, of the Goverhments of the Pro- . yinces, but-. ; also .of tlie .people ithemselves hi their private affairs, just-iri proportion to. the extravagance of the Gfbvefnment. The per-, pttuat'ion of this:..system will. also, have the worst effect in this. House. ■ b'd'-long-as- the-, income of the province's (iepends upoii the ■ amount of revenue'raised- in: "this.'' Iltiuse, so longshall we find hbii. ■'hicnib.ers': coming up here'fully pfepared to increase the taxation,, atftii events to keep it- up at its present height, in. order that.tlieymay take' the money. buck to. tlieir proyitices.' -If a%bwl should be raised in the' prbyiiices at. the. excess of ; '..tnxaiioiij theyfiiiye. 6iiiy,.to;saj-—-*;',!See : what : an airiount of,money, w.e have brought back ; to you;;" andthe.Kniwi.isit once laid. But ; ifthcProvine.ial'.Ggvenimerits. bad to. raise 1 -the. money :fpr. expenditure in local requiremeiits,:tbat process ■ at once' diminish: ; :the:ftmpunt of those yi;arits in a lniist remark-., ■ahleyiegreel . I.believe, Sir, that Instead',-bfi wan ting-an simourit; equul tothe' threefeiglitjis.'' of :thecustoms,revenueVin;additioh;fo.: their otberipurcesibf; revenue; a very large redue-. tipri wqalil jhe .'i ri queßtiph.6f : tlie:,prppbßedvioiin of;.£2Cp,Oflo; and'i willfirstspeak '.'qflhimarin'erlri'jvliieh''' •tli : e---ioari- 'is ■ : 't6.;-'i>e' : 'raiseil,----that question jms,beeii pretty, wellsetatjest. •.already. It nppeari ■to .-me' : that-whatever iegal opinions niiiy have' been .given as to; the : power to raise inder the' Act of 18G3,and wliatey'eriiighicgaiiiutbpritiesmay; '.haye.bteii eonsiilted «ni:the.;;.subject,'"jt-'woiild-haye been 'better fcr'the'iGbyeriiiiiehUbfhave.. gone to a liiyjrmiirid authority; !aiid.l-belibve they would have Jieafd'ahaVthe "ahvnititof■money to he .borrowed w'ub ; iOifl.no> niore. If the interpretation:-;put upon ■ tUii, wording of the Act by the Gbverunient is tlicMriie'oiie, there would be no difficiili-y in "•tlicir niii>i,g % liability of tlie colony, under certain circumstances,' to as iniudi as :£(j,00|),()()() : Supposing the delientnres were ..forced upon, the market ■..■panic-sueli jw existed in Kiyglaiid last-.year.' ..they would not have f. : tcbed moretiian ho :.ea.ch,.and,you .w'.uild not have raised more than a. .million and a half for ybiir three' million-loaii, You. could., then have raised another million ttiid; a half, by ; the issue of

ivnothqr £3,0.00,000 of dolicntureaij- liii'il tliiit ■•wjmlii-lmVe'-pi.hri'gctV-tlit colony into a debt, of: -"'*6,Opb,poo.-./;-l ; -rirn.'-piiU-infif : -ah" extreme case; but:jt is by: doing so that 1 think we■ 'am, best ■see. the elleet of the interpretationwhich -theiGovernment put upon the'iiiiittei'; "■■lt'iipH pears to. : me, Hiiy thfit.before: .borrowing-more ' thim.-£;j;o6(),oo'o:'tindcr the. Loan Act't.lio covi-: 'sent; ■holder ■bL-debenture's, would-liavo-to lie obtained, because 1 conceive that, it-wouldotlioryvise be a direct breach of contract with- them. The impression conveyed by the. Act was tliiit the Government: was : to; borrow and no more, andif there, ■'hid been an- impression that a larger sum coulii be borrowed, the holders' of debentures would certainly have bad an option lis to the prieeat wliicli they would purchase those 'debenture's. I will say no more as to the mode of raising the loan, but as to the -lonii itsij.f I will say that it appears to mo, if we consent to it, we shall be acting in direct approbation of the principle which was initiated last year, of borrowing to meet our current expenditure; and I would ask, where is it to tiini ? It is perfectly true that Some of the appropriations under the loan proposed in the financial 'statement are of mi exceptional character, but others (ire undoubtedly permanent current expenditure,, whether they have to be met out of the proposed loan or not. There is the appropriation for defence which I cannot look upon us current expenditure. We are not now in a state of war, and we cannot look upon the state of the colony, as regards defence, as Of a singular or extraordinary nature, No reduction of any great extent iii this department can tiilce place for years to come, and any expenditure on account of it should come out of our current revenue ; and I say that at all events half of the expenditure proposed on this account, and the whole of the Jt4S,()oo' for contingent defence, should come out of the current revenue. But I set aside this appropriation altogetherj because we liave already fulfilled the requirements for it, seeing that the estimated revenue is sufficient to meet-all the wantsof the colony, without borrowing at all, Under those circumstances, it must be admitted that tlic proposed John is intended only to pay over certain sums to the provinces, and by them the expenditure of a very large proportion of it can only be locked upon ns expeticlitiuc | for current purposes; that is to say, all that is not appropriated to public works. I must not be Understood, in saying this, as being j opposed now, or at any time, to borrowing money, if I could see any sufficient advantage that would arise from it. For instance, if the Government brought forward any plan to put the colony upon a sound financial basis, or eveii any plan by which they could make the two ■end's meet, i should support them ; but to raise the loan with the prospect of doing the same thing next year, and in after years, (bat I cannot support. I will, say also this with regard to the interpretation which the Government have put upon the Loan Act of 1863, that if it be correct, the provinces could do the very same, and they could have raised a great deal more than they did if they sold the debentures at a discount, If the province of Otago, for instance, sold its debentures at a discount, it could borrow another £IOO,OOO, and the province of Canterbury could act in a similar way. Sir, I was greatly in hope, especially after what passed last, session that the Government would bring forward this year, not, perhaps, any plan by winch a large reduction in taxation by Customs duties could be immediately eifeeted, but a plan that would hold out the prospect of effecting that object at no very distant date. It was with that view that I was induced, I must say very reluctantly, to vote for the stamp duties; it was ■that-by the ■.mingling of direct with indirect taxation we might within a reasonable time effect a reduction in those Customs duties which press so heavily upon all classes. Even in this year's session my hopes were raised by the remarks of the Hon. the Commissioner of Customs, who stated in his speech on the Local Government Bill:—" It is not only impossible for the country to bear further taxation, or even its present taxation, should the times of trouble which are gathering round us become protracted, as we fear they will; but should it be the will of the House that I ami my colleagues should keep these seats, it will be my duty to bring down memoranda which' show that,, in a. merely fiscal point of view, the present tariff is impolitic, aid requires trenchant amend-ment-impolitic simply as a means of collecting revenue, as well as from the fact tliiit the taxation is not such as the Country ought to bear; and it is impossible to deny that the tariff, after the alterations of last year, presses more heavily than before on what we may call the real necessaries of life. For these two reasons it will be necessary sooner or later, to'make this serious change. For these reasons it appears to me, looking to the necessities of the country, that taxation of another kind must be substitutetl-a taxation .much more direct; and if another sort of taxation is. to come, it must come at the hands of (hose who will have the expenditure of it. 'We .must-bring the >pending bo;ly face to face with those who are taxed.'' Sir> I maintain that by the policy which the Government are now endeavouring to force upon the country, they are rendering any such course as that impossible. For my ow'n part, 1 should much prefer that the old system under the Surplus Pevenue Act should remain, until we could be in a position to adopt something better than perpetuating those evils which my honourable friend the Colonial Treasurer has repeatedly pointed out; for I cannot understand that in proposing this scheme lie was simply referring to the advantages it would bring in doing away with the complication of accounts between the provinces and the colony.

Mr .ElTzliEiiiiEHT.-Will my honourable •friend;excuse my interrupting him and allow ■me to say, that under the proposed scheme there will be no delusive surplus revenue as under the old system.

Mr CuiiTis.—Certainly there would no longer be any surplus revenue, but tlie relations be; ween the provinces and the colony .would.be the same; and if the lion, gentleman only says that he has-efFected' a change-in the mode of keeping the accounts, I must say I agree 1 with bin), hut that he is doing any more I deny, except so far as to render the worst evils, of the old system .permanent instead of being only 'temporary I lmve now stated the.main objections that I liave to these financial proposals, and. I think I havecc.plaineil pretty clearly what my o.wn.views arc ns-.to tlidniiide of dealing with the finance by the notice of: motion which I have place:! on the order paper in conjunction with thai; of'tlielioti, member for rjelwyn, in. which we propose to effect a reduction in the Customs duties which now press so heavily :.iip6n tlie 'people' by inipiishiga property'or iricoirie. tax which shalliprqss.upoh' those better able to foirit; tliat'is to. say to a certain/limit, and subject.tp a certain scale, which .the I louse may. think desirable,.. Having .expressed my: opinion on that motion, I do not feel it neces■sary logo at any 4'eiigth- info tiiat subject ;no,vv, hnt'l hope that imComimttee of : Why's and\ Means the question will,come on for j:debate,:aiidthe House will express an opinion whether it, -is possible, to reduce "the ''large i -taxation under which the country is, by tlie operation; of tlio ..present excessive, 'tariff, labouring; and:put ii p7riibn atleast upon: the ■shoulder* of those wlio are best able to bear 7: Mr^.TKAV.HUS—I intended :.to have reserved . any. remiifKs tlint fnuglit offer, in. reference to tiie; financial policy pf tlits :Gfoverum(;iit, .until I:had an opportunity of bringing under the consideration : of the House; iii a formal :■ riiiirillerj;ll j e rearildtlqns. >vliieh I placed builie notice' paper* %h'the4ntentimf of' moving .(.hem oil .going.into 'Committee of Supply, ■ Jltit,-Sir; the declaration which was t.uaiie in ; this, debate yesterday, by,the .Colonial 'frea.surer, of the positive intention n'f the Government hot to depart from the financial policy' eiinuci.aled by him as a whole, and, also the technical position of embarrassment into which this debiite has -got, by the circumstance-of my honourable friend the member for the Goldlielils first rising to propose iiii amendment tii the iho'tion of the Ci.dnnml Treasurer, induce, nit 1 to bring before the fi.niisc - 1-hu views I entertain in relation to that- financial policy; at an earlier moment thaii, probably, I-ntlicnvi'se-would jiiiyo- done. And, perhaps it may be also att mled with convenience to : the Government, and be less likely-to embarrass them jn. the course which ihey may ,

be disposed to take in connection with their owii policy, if they should learn—wlillo yet inoro'than one of those members has an opportunity of speaking to tlio question—lho views; entertained in referonce to that policy, |iy members who from tbo commencement of the session up to the time of its enunciation, were prepared to givo the Government an honest and consistent support, and the views which,:ji,fter hearing that policy, induce such members; to withdraw their support. And ..Ili'at.-L-.\yill cull the attention of tho House to onb.yery great inconvenience, which not only tlie members of this House, but which the country, as a whole, must sutler, from the peculiar, manner in which the financial policy . of. the General Government has been placed before lis. Sir, it is customary in all countries .possessed of free constitutional Governments, to have a fair intimation given to them of the intentions of tlie Government in /relation, to their financial policy, before that policy (more particularly if it involves any organic changes) comes under the discussion of the Legislature. In England, we know that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and those who ure prepared to support his views do not hesitate in milking known those views in the most complete manner, so that the public; may have an opportunity of digesting fheiniind'of criticising them, before they come under the discussion of the Legislature. Hut, Sir, in the present instance the opportunity of such discussion, and of such criticism, was not allbrded to the people of the colony, was not afforded to this House, was not afforded to those whom the Government had a fair right to consider as prepared to give them a consistent and hqiicst support in their measures. I could not indeed but feel somo little surprise when, in the early part of the financial statement .of die Colonial Treasurer, he rather twitled his colleagues witli having allowed portions of \m views to leak out prematurely. Sir, that is not the position which either the country or this House, or the supporters of the Government have a right to be placed in, The country which places those lion, members in the position they hold, has a right to the most unreserved information in regard to all financial questions involving organic changes, 111 short, except changes in connection with tlieraising.of duties of Customs (which are always kept secret until they can be brought into operation, so as not to cause injurious effects upon the revenue), it is invariably the ride, I believe, in all constitutional Governments, .for any organic changes to be fairly signified by those who intend to bring them under the consideration of the Legislature. Now, Sir,l must confess, having some idea of What were generally believed to be the proclivities of the present Government, I was not prepared for the character of the financial proposals brought under the consideration of this House, I was prepared to find tint the Governinent, having had an ample opportunity of seeing how hardly the existing financial system of the country was bearing upon its resources, would have come down to this House with such a scheme of re-organization as would have led to relieving this country from what 1 consider to be an intolerable weight of -taxation. And I must confess that it was witli feelings of grave disappointment, that I viewed the propositions which are brought before this House, involving a perpetuation; in even a more objectionable form than they previously possessed, of all those evils which have long characterised the finance of the colony. In considering a question of this kind, I think it may be useftjl lo take a glance at the past history of the colony, in order to determine what have been the peculiar circumstances which have involved it in its present position, and what are the peculiar .circumstances which appear to necessitate that temporizing policy, that timid application of shift and .expedient which seems to be the normal characteristic of all the financial policies of the country. Sir, when the proyinces were first established, it was not in the contemplation of those by whom they were created or who brought them into being, that this country would ever be plunged in war—would.have to be engaged in the expenditure of vast sums of money to repress rebellion and thus .disturb the relations between the various Governments of the colony. But, Sir, all those relations have been disturbed. We know- that the funds which would otherwise have been appropriated towards the developement of the resources of the country, and the peopling of the country were, in a weak moment, appropriated in attempting to extinguish the native rebellion. I lode back to a period many years past when the question of native rebellion was first under consideration of the Legislature of the country; and I find that it was one to which but little thought was given. In an address which I myself had the honour to bring under the consideration of this Legislature, and which was adopted by this Legislature—adopted as one of those things of course which few people cared to tii'SCUSS Of criticise-the decision was formed that this country should not interfere in any degree with the maintenance of peace with the Natives; so long as we had no substantial control over that question. Sir, unfortunately I stood then much in the same position in which I stand now in this House, not possessing a sufficient amount of weight to make it worth the while of those who are carrying oiit the administration of the affairs of tins country to give heed to the views I took upon myself to enunciate. Events, however, have justified my views. It was a source of very great regret to me in the year 1858, while the control to which I refer was still withheld from the people of this coiOny, that members of the Legislature consented 1 to meet in session. I then resigned my seat, and I urged on those with whom I happened to be in confidential relationship, as members of the Legislature, the duty of absolutely refusing to carry out the legislation of the country, until the control over every department which ought to be under its 'control was unreservedly handed over by the Impeiial authorities, f believe had the colony possessed that complete control, live should not have heard of native wars. The justice which the peop'e of the colony have always been anxious to mete out to- the Native section of the population, ■ would hiivc induced them to meet the difficulties as they arose in a spirit which was : not likely to be exhibited, an 1 which was not exhibited, by. those who retained that control in their own hands. There is no doubt the dilliciiities which have arisen between the two sections of the population of these islands, arid which have necessitated the : expenditure of large sums of money for the purpose, of suppressing rebellion, and of restoring, peace and good order throughout the.colony,Vfiavo disturbed those fitmncinl relations which were established at the time the provinces were originally created; and we have :to ..consider whether it is possible -now, lijokiiig at the facts I have referred to, toiriaintaiii ; 'in its integrity the position originally established between the General Goyernmentahd the Provincial Government of ■ the dlony; Sir, I am one of those who ; believe that itcannot be done. I believe the cifcuiiisinnccs; of the country to be so com,pletely changed as to require an entire rcniodelling of.. the financial relations between .tlie. GeherAl.and Provincial Governments of tlie country,: I am not one of those who wish to see provincial institutions done away with. Twisli/to see them maintained for the purpose of ciirrying out the peculiar functions .they woro intended to subserve when first created, I wish to see them retained with tlie reasonable certainty that they will .beiible. to carry out those functions, and without the/risk of/ being strangled before they ;.had a proper opportunity of subserving those functions-<s It is because I see in the financial :proppsiils: of the Government the nlmost. certiiinty that provincial institutions will be.uiidiily'strangled, while no prospector liqp : i]:is:heid;out to this colony of relief from tji.elntolerable burdens under which it has Jiciin/suilering; that 1 utterly disapprove of tlie whole "scheme of policy which is enunciated iii the financial proposals of the Government, Tlie hnn. member for Nelson (Mr Curtis) has anticipated many of the subjects upon which Liiifeiuled to address the House iii co.niu'ctioii with the resolutions I have placed, iijioii/ilie Order Paper; but he hns so completely' ..exhausted the subjects as to pre- ! elude me fr'oiii.-saying hut a few words upon .i|uo.sti<iiiß involved in these resolutions. In ciirisiileriiig what the functions of the Genenil Assembly should he as a taxing body, one is brought iii the first instance to inquire

what are the objects for which taxation ought primarily to be imposed upon tho community. Sir, those objects are the maintenance of internal peace and good order, and the speedy ami effectual administration of justice. These are the subjects which alono justify taxation in this colony, and no taxation is justified beyond the actual extent necessary to' provide for those objects. If our taxation docs run into excess, it is from one of two onuses—cither because wc are bound to provide for tlie consequences of past extravagance, or wc are engaged in maintaining establishments which are inlinituly beyond our necessities. Sir, we are in both these positions in this country, and I see nothing in the proposes of the Government which are in any degree calculated to relieve us from those positions. One proposal of the Government may relieve us from a portion of the burden, but it does not relieve us from taxation. It places us simply in a different position. I allude to the proposal to consolidate the loans. I entirely agree with what has fallen from the hon. member for Nelson, that no propositi could have been more rash on the part of the Government than to appropriate to the use of the provinces any revenue that might be saved from the consolidation of tlie loans. J conceive if a saving can be effected—and I believe it can be effected in a legitimate nmnner-in tlie interest under these loans, that the whole of that saving should he appropriated to the reduction of the taxation of tlie country • that it ought not to be handed over to tlie provinces to increase what I cannot but consider is their great and unnecessary extravagance. I hold it to be utterly unwise to hand that money over to tlie provinces, to be expended without that proper check which can ainne exist when the Government of tin; country is brought face to face with the taxpayer, It is because of the necessity, moreover, that all taxation should be equal and impartial and universal in its operation that I conceive it to be necessary to maintain that the General Assembly shall alone impose taxation upon the people; not simply the taxation to supply the necessities of tlie General Government, but that it should be the parent source, the controlling power, under which any taxation authorised to be raised under the authority of Provincial Governments should emanate, I am distrustful of Provincial Governments as taxing bodies. The democratic element runs wild in some cases, and there is sometimes so much of partisanship evinced, and so much of the evils of democracy exhibited, that I shall never be prepared to trust the provincial Governments of the colony with any unlimited control over the taxation in their various provinces. While that element of democracy exists in what I cannot but consider its worst features, it would be unreasonable and improper for this House to allow the property of the colonv to become th2 sport of the demagogue, which it would become unlcs some reasonable control were placed over the taxing power of tlie Provincial Councils. I have been long enough in this colony to have heard it mooted by men unable, from want of intelligence, or of those qualities which are always said to be the distinguishing feature of true industry—l have heard U said by those men when they thought that their neighbours, who were more industrious, or who had more capital, were becoming a little richer than themselves-thut the latter should be taxed for the beneSt of those who would not maintain themselves by honest labour. Knowing that there exists that feeling of je ilousy on the part of the improvident against the rich, and knowing the powers which exist under our provincial system of exciting the worst passions of democracy, I should be very chary of allowing them to have unrestricted opportunity of imposing taxation on persons possessed of property in the colony, and I therefore agree that the Hon. the Coionial Treasurer was perfectly right when he stated that it would be desirable that the whole taxing power of the community should reside in the General Assembly. But I conceive, Sir, that while the necessity exists for keeping the taxation of the country under the control of this body, it behoves it to be careful that it docs not press on that very class which has the greatest right to relief. It should not allow its taxation to press unduly on the labouring class of the community. It should make it fall alike on the rich and on the poor, so that while taxation is universal it should also be equal. Thereis nothing, however,before us in the proposition of the lion, the Colonial Treasurer to lead us to any hope of mitigation of tbeburden which now presses so unequally on the poor, and which allows the rich to go scatheless. Let us look at the facts. Lat anybody examine the tariff with anything like impartial eyes, and what do we find-we find that not oiily the poor are paying the largest amount of the taxation upon the ordinary necessaries of life (from which I am afraid they are not likely to ba relieved), but that they are hearing the largest amount of extraordinary tuxilion also. The poor man's moleskin trousers are taxed more heavily than the ricli man's hroiitl cloth, ("barges on measurement goods of all kinds press unduly upon the poor. Charges of weight goods in like manner press on the poor unduly, _ Allowing that every ground of expediency compels us still to tax the necessaries of life, let us relieve them as far as it is in our power to do so Let the burden fall on the shoulders of those who are best able to bear it. That is not so according to tlie existing tariff charges. It is time for this House to take that matter into its consideration. It is the weight of taxation which is now crippling both the capitalist and the labourer. The history of every country shews that excessive taxation is attended with the most degrading effects on the character of the people. There are a hundred arguments, indeed, which it is unnecessary for me to adduce to this House, in favour of a reduction of taxation in this country. It i«, i think patent that our taxation is excessive, and that the burdens imposed by it are likely to produce complete stagnation in every branch of our industry. It is the duty of the Government to look this matter in the face, with a view to its reduction, but I fear it will be difficult in litis House. There are nine riders upon the horse instead of one, each armed with a sharp pair of spurs, driving them into the animal to make him go faster towards raising money, and whilst we have in this House elements which would enable a dishonest Government to maintain a state of things destructive to the best interests of the country, those very elements stmd in tlie way of any efforts towards reform by an honest one We will never get rid of the difficulty until the provincial clement is so de.ilt with hi to withdraw from it that' incentive to expenditure which causes increased burdens to be placed upon the country. It is in this view that I object to the policy of the Government, because it perpetuates, as stated by the lion, member for Nelson, the worst features of the financial scheme* of past years, We want to deprive this provincial element of the incentive to expi'usc. One effect I am aware might be produced by the change I suggest, which might he inconvenient to Government. It is this, that the Government of the colony as the only taximr bo<ly,_ instead of being spurred mi to increased taxation in order to meet inordinate demands of the provinces, may be driven to an undut! degree of economy, and upon it will rest whatever odium may exist in reference to the taxation of the country. I, for one, as a momber of the Legislature; should he prepared to encounter that odium. It is proper for the Legislature to encounter the odium whde assuming the function of dictating what the taxation should be. It is not tlie duty of this House, it is not the duty of the General Legisla'ure of tho country, to cast on the provinces the odium of the general taxation of the country. While it reserves to itself the riKlit of declaring to what extent the taxation of the country should go.it ought to bo satisfied to t.ke upon itself the odium usually pending the imposition of taxation. That ■s the position of the Parliament of ICmtliind, as a taxing body. It does not hesitate to take upon itself whatever odium may be attached to the amount of taxation imposed. No odium attaches to taxation, however, when the people feel that taxation to be necessary. I he odium attaches when it is found to press unduly upon any particular class, or when it is found to be in excess of all the reasonable requirements of the country. It is in these circumstances that odium attaches; and when this is so, the Legislature and the Government of the country are

bound to take measures for diminishing the amount of taxation. So long as the Legislature and the General Government of the colony can shift the odium of taxation upon another body which lias every inducement to increase it to its largest amount, but is not brought face to face with the taxpayer, there will be undue pressure. Hut it will be asked how can we, whilst providing the provinces with the means of performing the functions which they were originally intended to carry "Jit, at tile same time place the General Government of the country in its sound and proper position. Not, sir, I apprehend by a partition scheme—not by giving to the provinces an undefined share of the revenue—not by giving them an incentive to urge the Government to increase taxation in order to supply their wants-hut by fixing, definitely, the amount which they are to have-by fix"igft with due regard to their wants,and by limiting the supply strictly to the character and extent of those wants. That is the only way, as It appears to me, by which the burden can be placed on the right hack. We are told that the proposed scheme is final. How illusory does this become when we look at the Public Revenues Hill. It appears to me still to leave a very broad and difficult problem to be solved by Provincial Councils when they come to deal with their revenues. Are they to take the estimate of the General Government as the basis? Are they to say —" We know that the estimated revenue of the General Government is one million sterling; we see their appropriations go to the extent of half a million; we know that the Imriltm imposed upon us by the Consolidated Loan Act reaches £200,01)1), and therefore we have a net surplus of £300,000 between ns. That appears fair." Is it so? It is not so. This apparently simple arrangement may be disturbed under the provisions of the Public Revenues Act. Under the 28th section, the General Government is authorised to exceed its appropriations by the sum of £40,000. There is then, I say, Sir, an element which must disturb tlye appropriation of provinces if we are to meet current expenses out of current revenup, or which must otherwise lead to the existence, at the end of the financial year, of a debt which will have to be provided for by this House. The Government bus a right to go further, for if they find the current income of the colony insufficient to. meet the appropriations of this House, they are authorised to borrow from the hank £G(),000, and to repay that out of current receipts. Would that disturb the appropriation of the provinces or not? Mr Stafford.—No.

Mr TiuvKiis.-Then we have here another element of passible or contingent debt thrown at the face of the colony. I say this gives to the Government the power of raisins no less than £IOO,OOO in one year, it in their opinion some necessity may arise which will justify them raising that money. We know in respect to moneys thus raised, how impossible it is for this House to refuse indemnity for expcndiinre. I know the argument that will be adduced against this. It will he said that that £GO,Ot)O, if must be paid out of current income as it accrues; but what if current income has failed. How is it to be replaced ? Will it not at the end of the year, have to be defrayed out of something ? Will not the £40,000 also have to be defrayed, and are we not i bus giving them power of exceeding the nppropriatio.s of this House by .£100,000? An lion, member.—"No, £40,000. Mr Tiuvers.—lf the current income is insufficient to meet appropriation, they are authorized to raise £OO,OOO with no opportunity of saving ; the other half goes to the provinces. We will have to provide for it by loans or by some other means, We may have, in one year, to provide £IOO,OOO beyond the actual expenditure, £60,000 of which will be covered by appropriations made upon the faith of estimates of revenue placed before the House, under which we have allowed the provinces to receive one-half of the consolidated funds. That is a vicious system of finance. It allows us to pay the provinces £60,000 ill excess of that which the resources of the country might afford. I am not prepared for that, I am not prepared to hand over one-half of the consolidated revenue in view of the possibility that the balance may not be sufficient to matt the appropriations of this House, and in view of the possibility that £40,000 more may have to he borrowed. I wish to see that the appropriations of this House should be respected, and that funds arising from the consolidated revenue shall in the first place defray such appropriations, and that the Provincial Governments shall receive such a fair quota of the revenue as will not be calculated to disturb the estimates of expenditure brought under the consideration of this House. That cannot be done under the provisions of the Act I have mentioned. But it can if we consider what are the essential purposes of Government which we place under the control of the Provincial Legislatures, and which, hut for their existence, would have to be provided for by votes of this House, I am not prepared to give them one sixpence beyond the amount absolutely required for those purposes which it would devolve on this House to provide for if the Provincial Governments did not exist. I say that I would not give them one sixpence more than the amount so necessary, looking forward to the increase of population under the operation of immigration and the carrying out of (he colonization of the country, I would give them something in the shape of a capitation allowance which would provide for these ncees<ities, but not a farthing beyond that. I would leave the provinces, for anything beyond, to put themselves face to face with the taxpayer oi some considered and properly fixed principle, the application of which would be left to themselves. We would then know that in the provinces economy would be the rule, and that whatever could be saved in the departments could be appropriated for colonization. We should then know that the appropriations of this Assembly would not bi likely to be disturbed by the necessity of raising money in excess of the current income, simply because we have handed over the gross half to another body which is not in the same degree responsible for the application of the money. Sir, this appears to me to be the true sound principle which ought to guide us as to the amount to he handed over to the provinces. I am the more convinced that this view of the case is the right one the more [ consider it. It may be utterly without interest to some lion, members. I may be preaching to the winds as regards many lion- members of this House who look at this matter from a provincial point of view. I listen to the cheer of my linn, friend. It is a matter of congratulation I have no doubt in the minds of some that we have in this House a certain number of political dummies-men who allow their intelligence to go so far as it suits their interests. It is the character of all Legislatures that there are political dummies of that kind in them—mere voices-but these voices will one of thow dars have to justify their acts to those who have appointed them to give a careful and honest consideration to important questions, anil they will have some difficulty in doing so. They may be able to do so to the ignorant from a stump, but I doubt whether they will be able to do so to the intelligent, when they came to discuss the mutter in the closet. 1 am not speaking for the dummies. I do not care whether the dummies are in tho House or out of the House—nr whether they see what I say if it should happen to jret into print. It is not for dummies that I speak, it is for the country, I say what I do because I believe I am actuated by perfect honesty of purpose in this matter, anl I will leave the country to judge whether what I say has any soundness in it. If the country will say that I have occupied the lime of the House unnecessarily I will accept the verdict, but not that of the dummies. There is another consideration in reference to this question which weighs with me m >re stronjrly in maintaining the views whii'h I have ventured to enunciate to the House, It is thK that the basis of the financial arrangements under which distribution of the revenue of this colony has proceeded for past years wis that it was divisible in its application in the first place to those purposes which are ordinarily mended within the functions of Government, namely, of maintaining peace ami providing for the administration Of justice, and in the next place to those purposes which may be considered as

purely of a colonising IT* cation to each of the provinces o'f ti,, . , proceeds of its land revenue w« c^.* hole and I hope will always be S»' al enable nglit. It was because ] t \' n ; colonising functions to perform tl mt , [ s *? eularrevenue was allocated totlium 1 * the arrangement of 1856. It was IS' tended at that time that the pro ,£?"' to impose extraordinary taxes on the, ~ f e the of supplying wa ' l )r connected with those panicu Zt& I was one of the members of the ■ nS ' Conmutteeoflßs^andwas4S l ,te Mr Swell ,„ framing the report of that „ "•'.ttee. am quite satisfied it «, ls '" opinion of those who served on tic , mittee that these were the ~„-,, • ~ ° m " which the distribution was made i , •? of the land revenue there would lie ~, olf cttlty, as it appears to me, i„ anivi,,' <" what should he a fair amount to | Jt , ? ' U priated to the provinces for the mi l °" functions they have to perform T would he no difficulty in determinim, «lf? departments should be under their wnti and in determining the cost. n„ii.. v l.,''» the provinces themselves would h..," ( . t11 , , J by the best considerations of e"i,i).„ ]iv ! soon as they found tint the f un ,|. '" " limited hut so long as the funds are u; ,l inii f; they will not have that incentive to M „„„ and that incentive is still further rn u ! because the revenue is derived frem «,',,'' not tinder the control of the provii-,1." -m are not brought face to face with the'p c . rf from whom they receive their reveiii-t f"/ Sir, while we view the matter as lietv.ee! ,' provinces and the Genera Govern,',, ,l ■ that light, we have still to consider traordinary expenditure on tie pun ~'f t )T General Government is to be defrayed '.„„]'? do not conceive that it is desirable -in,V"-r tl. I circumstances of the colony, nor won /;, | le desirable if those circumstances v .-.- r ',. /' more nourishing than t ey are. tL,t \. UY £ traordinary expenditure upon object-.,'{'.'" manent utility should be provided out of the ordinary revenues of the country ut ••, „' j not be fair to a young co„ llllUn ' it ;. that extraordinary charges f.,r uu\,<J,\ of that kind should he imposed if .',., [L actual population. I conceive t'i;it \w', charges may fairly be distribute '„ v ,V'a considerable period, and it is :i '■„,., I)a i]' mode of providing those sums In- n'e,' nj 1? loans ; hut it should he for purposes, and purposes of aekiiuw!e,i)i t ,i general and permanent advantage, that Ve should impose burdens on the 'rev- nu» 3 « the country. We ought, however, t, l e modest in these respects. We liny,' unfortunately been hitherto incited by the i!t'i ; ro to magnify our position in the scale "of colonies. I myself have failed m se- that t: e advantages we are likely to derive are commensurate with the cost'of somc-f'thf-institutions which have been established jri this country; and I conceive, Mr, that it would, were it not for exi-ting contra':,' which ought always to lie held sacred by at y community, be extremely wise if' the country were compelled to limit its us'iirations. It can be done in regard to seme ef those institutions, and in some of tln.-e arrangements that have been made, nstcnsihly to further the interests of the ommrv and its prosperity. We have exceeded cur means fur many years to come, and we have taken somewdiat too high a flight; but Sir there are institutions pressing upon this country which may h modified and circumscribed, without violating any extracts whatsover affecting third parties. We have multiplied the institutions of the country in a manner, I may say, without precedent in any portion of the world. Whenever a want arises, instead of endeavouring to meet it through the medium of existing institutions, we are apt to create new machinery for the purpose—a machinery difficult in its construction, complicated in its working, and expensive in ita maintenance. We have lost sight of that voluntary principle which is characteristic of the institutions of Great Britain. In our endeavour to bring justice home to every man's duor, ve have done it by depositing a judge at every door, with his staff of clerks and their fees, and many other costly appliances which in other countries, or in Great Britain at all events are dispensed with, because the people there rely upon that voluntary principle which has been the true means by which the progress of E gland in the scale of nations has been secured. I see looking at the estimates of the Government that provision is made for charging the provincial revenues with the payment of resident magistrates and clerks and officers of all kinds all over the country for the purpose of dealing with eases that in England are dealt with, by the unpaid magistracy of the country. I say that this arises because there is no confidence in the voluntary principle, er else because there is the strong temptation to exercise patronage. And with all this we have a large number of magistrates created, some for political purposes, ami some for other purpose?, whose usefulness is entirely done away with by the circumstance that in every corner of the country there is planted some salaried person to perforin those duties which should be performed by the unpaid magistrates. The position of the Supreme Court too is utterly anomalous. We have Supreme Courts seattere 1 over the colony. We have the five judges of the Court located in various portions of the colony ; we have a court in every province, and the business of the Supreme Court is brought, as it were, to the tioi-.rs of the population. Now, I for one, am not jealous of confiding a very large amount of control to gentlemen in the position ef resident magistrates in this country ; on the contrary, I should be prepared to extend their jurisdiction very largely. As a lawyer 1 have watched that kind of administration of justice in this country, and I see no reason why they should be limited to deal with £IOO any more than with £2O. I conceive that by further utilising the inferior courts we could economize in the expenditure in the higlur branches of our judicature. But Sir, 1 wish to see all the resilient magistrates in the outdistricts swept away. I want to see the men placed in the position of clerks swept away. I should like to see the English system adopted, and magistrates created for their honesty and integrity, and for those ipialdications which are generally held to be the distinguishing characteristics for which magistrates are appointed in England. 1 wish to see public opinion brought to hear on their conduct. I don't wish to see the Btm-h disgraced by being made subservient to pditieal and party purposes. There never was * grosser thing introduced into the institutions of any country than to allow the partizan Superintendent of a province to recommend to the position ot magistrates those whom he chooses to nominate for the purpose of gratifying his personal friendship or his political alliances. It has led to the greatest improprieties—it hss led to gentlemen of position refusing to take their seats on the Bench with persons appointed under such circumstances. It is a disgrace to the institutions of the country when the fountain of honour and justice is'removed from the proper and legitimate conI trol of the representative of the Queen in the colony. I know that grave complaint* have arisen from that cause, which it is " ot necessary that I should more than refer to, but which are well known to the Government. Such a system should he done away with j it has the effect of bringing those iustitutious into contempt and of depriving those who ought to occupy the highest positions in the country, and who command the confidence of their fellow-citizens, from an incentive to perform those duties which properly belong to the bench. I say, if the Government set themselves to the task of eareful:y reviewing the whole judicial system, they would he enabled to relieve the country from a considerable portion of the burdens imposed upon it now. I know that the views I enunciate may be unpopular to members or the legal profession, who are apt to look Willi warped ideas upon these nutters. 1 am «° not disposed to believe that no one can a«minister the law but a trained lawyer, ltfhaps he may be able to administer it moti simply and rapidly, but 1 am not at all prepared to say. from my own experience; tn« the most trained lawyer in the country coaa administer substantial justice, which is " essence of law, more satisfactorily than a ?<• tleman of honour and integrity, who tirely unbiassed and uninterested in 'he ••'* before him. I should like to see the W w

Bvsteiiiffork'ed.ih. regard to the clerkships.to. the bench, and I see- tip -reason; why soma member ofthe legal profession, whose trrtnijng would enable him to advise, thje;■magistrates in regard to matters of techhicai law;' should uot beappointed clerk; I believe tliat wen of the liiglieststandihg iu the profession ■irould be willing. to,.takc uppiv.Uiemtlidse.; offices at a tithe of the'present, cost;::' The. Government wliieh will take upon itself'the duty of reviewing: the -whole scheme.of .the administration of justice in this country, and hv means of re-organisation'' place' it -in; tlijtt Inch position widen .Anglo-Saxons look upon villi satisfaction, will deserve well of this country, and will he rettteiuberal 'when our financiers, whatever their ability might be, viil have been forgotten. 1 believe it is upon <\ proper and sound, system of administering the law and providing-for.-the pen.ee and good order of the country through the medium of. courts of justice, thai much- of its. prosperity depends.' I see no, prospect of that held out to us; (Ue Government, conscious of the difhY with which, the question is jonaded, has not addressed itself 'to that question. .1 took on my self some -time ago : to place a resolution on (lie paper in relation to this niati.tr, Isn't the Government ought not to leave such questions to private members/ They know as- well-as any private member tlie evils to be prevented, and it is for them to jiriugforward-incasuresonthe subject. Norcan 1 forget the snubbing, administtred to lion, members by the Colonial Treasurer, for hiving meddled with such questions, T fed I have trespassed on. the functions of. the Government in ibis respect, and I do feet, however unjust that snubbing, may have been, that I brought myself under the lash by introducing to the notice of the House questions relating to the administration 'of the law calling for new legislation.

Mr Haix hoped the hm. member would mention some circumstance to identify the occasion to which he referred. lie believed there was some misunderstanding on the n ; irt of the lion, member,

Mr TitAYEfts: I refer to what fell from the Colonial Treasurer on the occasion, of jfojor Atkinson ■ bringing in a bill.; he administered a rebuke/not to that member oiilr, but to private member's of the House generally, for, as I'understand, interfering with questions which ought in the ordinary course to emanate from the Government Benches. In his own mind his observations miclit have been applicable to that particular case, but his language admitted of a general interpretation; and I felt I had laid myself open to that rebuke, I do not blame the Government for not being, able to bring forward in one session all these amendments of the law which we necessary, that would be a task which no Government would attempt. The Government of Great Britain has shrunk from the task of consolidating and' codifying the Statute Law of England, and I could not cast anv reflections oa. the Government, if every measure for.the good'.government of tlie country did notcmanate from the Government benches. They hare enough to do with the administration of the departments under their control; but it is not unfair for those members who desire it, with a singleminded idea for the advantage of the country to take on themselves to initiate measures which they conceive to be of utility. Private members are open to be informed by the Government Of intentions' of their own with reference to such, measures; ■but I. hardly think, and I believe lion, members will agree with me, that (he rebuking words of the Colonial Treasurer ■■vere'i.'.tor say the least.-of '. them, fair to these who with a single-minded idea of what was right, and proper, attempted to bring under the notice of the House amendments of the law.

Mr STAFi:oßD..thouglit;if .tb,e.liori,.niembe! would only re.col.leqt how the Governmen had received measuresiritrpducedby imlepeii dent members, and amongst others by tiv hon. member '.himself-,-nothing like, a.gen.era application coul<i be ascribed to the words o the Colonial. 'Treasurer:' The Govermnen had bestowed its-support on several measure, introduced by, private'-' .members, - : Amongs: others, tlie ;Bankruptey' Bill, which the lip.usi owed tpthe earnestness of the lion .member and those by whom, he was assisted, in tin settlement .of such an intricate and compre tensive question, He hoped that expianatioi yroiild assure:the hon. member that nothinj cpuld have been, further from the mind of thi Governmeni or any member of it than an; feeling of. annoyance; On the contrary the; werepleased at seeing those measures takei up by.priyate'.'memb.ers;. Mr Travers :' As.far as lam concerced, may. say -that tiiei: expliinatio.n is entifel; satisfactory/-. I'''diil feel at the time, asi were, that.the lash was applied tp myself, a well as others, in the language of the Colonia Treasurer; and I thought I was right in men tioning.that'.ideajinorder that the Govern mentmUhs'.liay6.the opportunity of-removinf any impression which might exist in tin minds Pf hon. members with regard 1 tP theii future action in the House. I say that i; the Government took upon itself to review that question, there might be a very largt saving of expenditure, There are othei savings which might also be made. Ido noi like to see the public revenues made use 61 for purposes of patronage or unnecessary ex-penditme-'i and in looking at the extent ol the proposed expenditure intended to b( •charged on provincial revenues, I cannot but expressmy astonishment that- it ever found its way into the estimates, I may say thai many of the items on the estimates reveals tendency on the part of the Government which does not indicate any general financial reform. There is a desire in these estimates to stretch to the utmost not the capability but the'possible entlu'fability of the countrj to sustain the burden of taxation. I see foi example, but Ido not know that at.this stagt I am justified in dealing with them special items in these estimates 'wliicl indicate anything but a desire t( carry on the appropriations of the Genera Assembly on a general system of economy or which would hold out a hope to the coun try, that the appropriations of this llous* would, he limited and the taxation pf thi country in some degree be mitigated. I con eeire that a large saving might be effected or these appropriations. iSpnie of the depart ments of Government might he cut down and 1 s:iy that the course which would bi taken by the Government in that respec would he the greatest incentive to. the Pro vineial Governments throughout the cpun.tr; to follow hi the same line, It is impossibli for the Provincial Governments to make an; attempts in the direction of true economy when they have the appropriations of tb General Assembly directed by what is lqokei on by the country at large as'extravagances It is natural for those .in the pay of thi General Assembly in the .various" dUtricts o the provinces to draw -invidious comparison! between themselves and 1 those who are pai< under Provincial institutions; and if o licer; in the pay of Provincial Governments are no receiving pay equal to-- the salaries of : tiiosi wlra are under the General Governmen there will lie dissatisfaction. It is -impossibli tor Provincial authorities to direct themsejve to true,systematic economy until they see.i Practised in all the departments of thi General Government. But that is an im possibility under the present system ; and i would have been the wiser course if the. Go vernnient could have suspended any broai definite scheme for altering the n'nancia policy of the country until it had, had .tin opportunity of bringing before the couiitr; the state of- its resources, taking stock of it means, its linbilitieSj-and .its whole position *nani:i;il and otherwise, with tjie view p initialing one large cprnprehennive scheme o reform,--oi ie which would prevent the-con t'Diiiinceof- all those evils which have ctia "cterised the financial system for years p:isl B ''t the words of the Hon. the Colonial Trea ?"rer are these: he sees no chance of reliev ln ß the country from. taxation at presenl though he sees no immediate necessity fo increasing it. These are-ominous word; 1 should like to have heard him say," Bca Y'th us-, we have had a* heavy task to per iOrni; we are recovering from great dilTi culties, and have not had time to determine "w direction in which any future attempt tc relieve the country, from its hurdens may Possibly be turhed-btitif the present system and-.matters' stand as they are; we ,r 'tl pledge ourselves to bring down such a scheme of, appropriation at an early date as •' ill satisfy the colony;, we will inquire into

its. condition", and ■■■we will ascertain liow ; to meet /the/..wantsi ;pf. tlie: .counfry;".-hut tlie scheme iiow before tlie Tlbiiso.is, a scheme in perpetnity,.or if noV.in,pcrpet\uiy, is/n fruit/ ie'ss.ial.teratiOii.; of; : the whole 'scheme under which tlie colony has worked, Weoiight not to ; disturb; existing .arrangcnieiits except for the purpose of', securing, financial reform. .That is tlie.course.■ which ;tlic action, of the Government ought to have taken, and not. a eourse of, running, a wire .through, a rope of .sand in tho hope t!ii\t. it ; , : .would. : hold toge-. theiv. With: regard to many of the minor ■questions raised, although important to tlie minds of niany lion! members—sucit as tlie allocation of the loan and the" dealing with balances tViie from ■the : provi licos—;l euro iiot to pnter into them. I conceive there may he aw.uitof wisdom—l do not Visa tlie -word offensively, but none more-appropriate now

occurs to me—in proposing radical changes of that kind. I conceive, that until there is a thoroughly complete reform, these matters are merely dependencies which need uothe raised, .for they beget -in. the. minds of inde-

pendent members.'a suspicion that they are introduced "for tlie' pur'pose : .of '.gaining:, im unwholesome support to what might otherwise be a sound policy. There is a principle, however, iii :tlie scheme referred to by some lion, members in terms 6f ■condemnation, which I must, also condemn. The- test.of -what we liave borrowed is what we have to. pay; if We owe. £'.i,000,000, we. have bor-

rowed it; and if we liave sold the debentures at a large discoiuitwc must put upwi'h the loss. I hope and believe this matter was looked at in a purely legal-point of. view for the credit of the Ministry; and.that it Was. the mere opinion of a lawyer oil the reading of the.statute, anxious as a lawyer would be, who received a fee/to give an opinion favour-, able to Ins Clients-.. I know what leg<d opinions are; I have been called on to give an opinion on the interpretation of contracts, and I have pointed out that. While the legal interpretation might justify the party in proceeding, every man should go into court with clean hands. We do not want a mere legal Opinion, but a broad view of the intent and purpose of the Act; and I say that if lion, members were asked what the intention was, they would say it was to incur an indebtedness of £3,000,000 sterling arid no more; and I assert that no quibbling of a lawyer should, induce, them to depart front the morality of gentlemen; I use the term collectively; but, in order to decide the point, let the (louse deal with it hot by vote or resolution, but by a declaratory statute. If the Legislature declared that it was their intention to get £3,000,000 in cash, then the Government would go to the public creditor with clean hands; but I doubt whether the ingenuity of even Edwin James would satisfy the House, that such Was the ■ intention of the Statute, I have spoken already at some length, but! cannot conclude -without;-' expressing a hope that this House will consider the position of the: country; and, will feel that We are not here merely for the purpose of gratifying the desires or wishes of any of the various sections which it represents, Although I cannot i give my support to the financial scheme of the Government, I.still feel there would be many disadvantages in a change of Ministry. I am not prepared to say that the position of the Ministry may not be too dearly purchased by tlie country, but.it would only be where I saw the balance largely against the country that I should feel disposed to give my vote so as to disturb the existing Executive arrangements. 1 feel that lam placed in difficulty, when 1 look at the consequences of refusing ~tp give slippart to the proposals of the Government, lam not prepared to say how I will overcome the difficulty in my own mind, but I should-like to see some if possible, from, tlie ordinary parliamentary usages in order to secure a little more unanimity of action than is. likely to a proper administration of the affairs of the country, ■ Tuesday, Sept, 3.

Mr did not intend'to speak inthis debate, but'Tfeel compelled to rise after hearing the concluding portion of the .speech' of the lion.- member who- has jus'; sat down. It appears to me that the Government -are .entirely.cha.rgeablewitli;being,not. the ardeiit exponerits-pf a pnhciple, but of tin ardent desire for office; for the" lion, member (Mr J. C. Richmond) says he is quite willing to abandon the principle he now stands for, if he can. be supported in doing right by the hon. -member for Westland and others. I

confess I.ani shocked myself, and am afraid of. the position of the provinces, for this, is quite confirmatory of the conclusion I formed after the speech of the Colonial Treasurer, who shadowed forth liis intention of bringing the province.? together under one form of Government. I then canie to the conclusion that tlie hon. member thinks the provinces us-.-less excrescences; which might be superseded by some better mode of administration. I dissent from that View, for I believe tlie provinces to be

necessary, although, owing to accident in some cases, and to public incompetence in others, they have made mistakes. But the General government, have also made mistakes, as it requires no argument to shew—a reference to the history of the last six years is all that is necessary. The hon. member for Selwyn made a speech which was very nearly related in tone to : that of the. Hon. member for Nelson, It is. a singular fact that the hon. member for Nelson got a seat in the House, and had been elected Superintendent of the province, on condition that lie would do everything in his power to wipe the provinces out of the system ; and it is a remarkable coincidence that he lias great sympathy with the hon. the -Colonial Treasurer and the 'hob; member, .for-.Selwyn < If the policy of these gentlemen was accepted, t!ie extinction of the provinces would he inevitable, hut as I am not.prepared to accept such a conclusion, I prefer thei proposals of the Government. I compliment the Government on their sagacity, taking into consideration tlie condition of parties, and the number of sections into which the House is divided having opinions not wholly understood in or out of it, arid pur haying, derived such a general idea of the drift of voting power as accounts.for their, present policy. They are going,to windward: under.a great spread of canvas; and the country will be prepared to ask its representatives all over the colony the : questions which lias been shirked this session; what the provinces are under (lie Constitution Act;" whether they l areto;last, and lib? long; . but these que9tiorisiriustbe : urged next : ses- ; sion. It has been attempted to drag into this; debate the.,question, of. the.solvency of the: provinces,;. hut it must ;be evident to all who, take view of the circumstances of. the colony that the provinces are institutions whose services could nbtbe performed by any other modes .of Government. What is the ■hon. member for Selwyn; going to dp with Auckland ? If you.are, going; to continue the provinces they iriust' exist: j 'but if ypulare prepared to accept the suggestion of the ; hon;' member for-Nelson for the discontinuance of the provinces, then I quite grant that that part of the hon. member-for Selwyn'B policy,-which directs pur attention to the desirability of : . : having.direct taxation, would be a necessary addition.; but-. tlie. .provinces exist, and.the.temper of the House .is not in-'favour of- doing way.withthem.' What then is going to be done:? Is our credit to lie made worse by exhibiting: tlie provinces ?' '■ I :; submit' that if the' Government are not allowed to carry.the present measure, and tlie provinces are not:subsidised as the Government proposes, then tlie Northern provinces must go to the wall, and exliibit the most hideous .spectacle ; .df poverty and incompetency. We who have preached, separation, know the incidents: of" a com-' | biiied existence; we see that the Govern merit' of'' the colony is. charged with.its peaee.and: good order; hut Auckland is in a state of. depression which will not admit of direct taxation. Wellington, we are informed by Ministers-, is pretty-well off'; but Taramiki is confessedly in a. deplorable condition; and I am enabled fo say, having recently visited Napier, that it is'' depressed,, and does not give any promise Of raising money by direct taxation; but if yoir reject the proposals of the Government' you render it impossible for the.province's, ■of the Northern Island to carry on their administration without baying recourse to a taxation which would beodious. Canterbury is. not irii sucli a state of crying "distress us some other prbvincesfaltho'iigh.some of the constituents of my honourable friend, who have a greater taste for agitation than hard

worlc, inay be badly off, Some of us in that province do,not get tlie price for our produce which we would-, desire; but, nevertheless); Canterbury is in:n very prospirous conditiohj: as I believe arc also Kpulhlamhand.Otagp; and; Nelsoii is said to :'be,'flourishing; flow generous it is of us then, who are accused of bringing a war on the North, with great toss and expenditure, to wishto leave these gentlemen to provide for themselves; when we are in such a condition as to be bettor able to bear a direct taxation, levied by those de•mijc'nitic institutions, Provincial Governments and. Councils, I can see what the lion,

members are aiming at; we, the aristocratic n section of tho House, the centralists, who are ti entitled more than any other to the epithet of e snobs, go to our -provinces, and say, Now, D gentlemen, we have taken the burden of ut direct taxation, which presses efen on the n infant sucking at the breast—for it is esti- |) mated at £-1 a head—off your shoulders; ( ■while these democrats, who h. ve humbugged ( yon for so many years, decline'] to do s it." Tlie consequence will be that pro r c virteial institutions will be condemned. ~ But no one knows better than. I and y some other honourable members how tho p public interest would suffer if these institu- \ tioiis were destroyed. They have brought j Canterbury to the position it occupies as a v commercial, farming, and pastoral province. ~ The greater poriion of the wealth of Canter- \ bury is invested in landed property, as a , direct consequence of the wisdom which has . ruled its legislation. 11l saying this I cannot , he accused of vanity, for the legislation I c speak of took place before my and I ] have simply been engaged in conserving those | laws which I found in existence. There is , much justice in what has been said with regard j to closing the account with the North alto- , .gether. As lain not leading a'party, it is ; unnecessary for me to propose any policy, biit ] I should forgive debts and merge the liiibiii- ■ ties all over tlie colony. If that were done I j might assent to the policy of the lion, niem- j ber, but, now we must make such necessary , advances to the North as are proposed by the , Government, and leave the ac-oun.t open ; and I believe from what has been stated to me.by Northern inembers, that they would be prepared to liquidate the liability in more • prosperous times, I observe with great interest that there is a proposal in the North for increasing the basis on which tax ttioii is levied. The Superintendent of Auckland has sketched a plan for introducing a large number of those useful colonists, Germans. If a large number of them could be placed on the lands of Auckland it would be the best guarantee of its solvency ; but if you destroy the borrowing powers ot the province, arid obstruct the proposal of the Government to subsidise the Northern provinces, the ultimate expense will he greater. I believe my constituents will feel it irksome to pay these large charges consequent on native disturb- . ances; but lam convinced, after calculating the effeci of them, that the proposals of the .Government will tend to economy, for I do not think we shall improve our position by allowing any portion of the colony to become ridiculously insolvent. There are' in the Northern Island 40,000 natives; but how are you going to tax them directly ? By a tation, property, or income tax? And by what process could you collect it ? Ido not know o£ any; so that it would be unfair to take away a portion of the indirect taxation from a province, which it could not make up by direct taxation, but would lose entirely; tor you may tax what a native wears or eats, but you cannot tax his house or lands. We understand'from Ministers that nothing can. be plainer than the announcement of their policy. The most reticent members have been the hon. member at the head of the Government (Mr Stafford), and the Post-master-General (Mr Hall), but the Colonial ' Treasurer (Mr Eitzherbert), and the Commissioner of Customs (Mr Richmond) tell us in almost direct terms that this is a fleeting policy, and \that the right thing will be done ; when accident favours their ideii of a right 1 division in the House; '<: Mr FiTZiiEUHKRt: I never uttered a single ■ word which could he interpreted in that way. Mr MooitiioosE: I am sorry lam so ■ obtuse as not to arrive at the drift of what he ; says. I certainly think it tends towards ;' provincialism, But the lion, member holds ; me tip as an ultra-provincialist, although I [ have alw.iys been careful to state that ultra--1 provincialism is simply ridiculous, and that s. the provinces ought only to lake their place t in the Constitution, and that the Superintcn--3 dents and other leading men do the colony no i good service by taking exaggerated views of 3 their position. The Colonial Treasurer, lam I sure, thinks nothing of the kind. He is quite i. prepared for a change, The country is now - suffering from a disease which, having run its e course, will -leave a certain result. Thecouiury n is now-in an abnormal condition, which cani not last long, and I calculate that a given n result will follow the working of this agitan tion. A great many people can say it will e not last, but the hon. member is good enough i- to give a bias to the publicmind. He says he is a going to stand by a bargain, and that theland 'S revenue will not be interfered with. But he >r says it is an unjust bargain. But although y We see the hon. member now in robust health, r and capable of addressing the house for five ie hours at a time, still at some future time he

may not be able to exert his soft influence. It is as if the lion, member pointed to a stack on my farm, which is supposed to have been illegally appropriated by me, and says, " I am an honest man, Ihave had-an action at law, and that stack is mine honestly, but still a bargain is a bargain, and that property must be left alone." I can imagine that the hon. member might see a chance of the public mind being so disturbed that they might, seize only one portion of his argument, and say that those lands kad been unfairly filched froui the Northern Island. That was his meaning, and an attempt might be made to. convert the Middle Island lands to the use of the Middle Island, or rather of the colony, I am perfectly sure, however ridiculous it

niay sound, that where I live we would never submit to anything of the kind. Otago would hot, and I am certain Canterbury would rise

to a man. To return to what I have said. This is obviously a temporary condition of things. As soon as the Northern provinces, by tlie wise employment of the capital they get under.the proposal of the Treasurer, restore peace and commerce, and/increase their population and extend the area of taxation, then we will be able to relieve those classes : for which. I have always professed to feel, and have felt the greatest sympathy. I hope, the time is not very distant, I trust it will be next year, but any rate I hope that in three years the provinces of the Northern Island will be in a condition to remit the taxation; Jleariwhile the Northern Island will have to make only a moderate expenditure on immi-. gration and public works; and tile Middle Island will make the greatest use of the. means at its-command, by carrying out works for the benefit of the whole colony and not of any particular>. district. I believe it to -be the duty of: the provinces to spend; money equal to what tliey receive from the [.General Government iii making permanent arid reproductive works, which will he an addition, not to the capital of the provinces only, but ah addition to tlie borrowing power of: the colony, It will also be the means of increasing population and exports, and will generally strengthen commerce; and make us . what we ought to be—a respectable mercantile community. I beg to assure.the lion, member for.Selwyn. that {.sympathise with; him. I believe the course he took how would have.been taken by.me ten,years ago. .With regard to the inconsistency of the Go'yernmeiit, I confess niysolf tlmt they are embarrassing the future comMon of the country, and if I thought I con'fl secure any .improvement I would turn out the Government of the. country,., I do not .think we can take any action to disturb the Government in their. position, because there are no persons in the House that I rati sec fit to form a Government. If I could secure, my own views, I would assist in turning out the Govenment. My'views iirc like those of the hon. member for Selwyn—they are a little in advance of the age, His views especially are a little .more generous, but we should, consider what : is prudent.; He has failed to establish a proof tliattiie Northern Island, if deprived of the proposed subsidy, would get on.. If he would shew the tlmt I would accept his views, but I, do not believe it all. If he can convince me the Northern Island can do that, I would

help him even if it turned out the Govcrnmeiitybut I do not think he can.

Mr CtucitoFT Wu.son, C B.—The House, I am sure, will riot expect that 1 should folhw the hon. member for Newton through the various.part.Bof his speech; but I may say that I did hear price upon a time that some very •respectable men did come from Melbourne among those military settlers. I was sorry to heiir such, an account given of thein by the

hon,. member who has just sat down, and 1 must leave them to deal with the lion, mem-

ber when he next makes an excursion up the Waikato country. A short time since an lion, gentleman designated me a Cassandra in trousers, ami I ; have been m mortal terror ever since, lest some such designation would be again put upon me. The honorable gentleman who applied that expression to me is not, I regret to say, in his place. That lady, I believe, resided in Asia Minor—she was an Oriental lady, and, as a respectable Oriental lady,, wore trousers ; in fact if she had not, she would not have been a lady. She wasy if my classical knowledge serves me, kissed by the god Apollo, and nobody believed her ever afterwards. Now the hon.

gentleman never does believe what I say. We-all know the sequel of the stiry. The lady went to Greece with Agamemnon; he would not believe her ; he was murdered, and.shewaß murdered too. Had he believed tiie words of the unfortunate prophetess, he might have escaped. lam not going to corn-pa-e the honourable gentleman to Agamemnon ; the only ground upon which I could compare him to that celebrated personage, is his incredulity, But I think the thanks of ■the-House-are-due to the honourable gentle-

man, the Colonial Treasurer, for the benefit ■he has conferred upon it; and he shall have niy thanks in the strongest language in which I I can express them. lam sorry he is not in his place. In my opinion he has done an act which wilt work more good for the colony than anything/lie has done for years past. I have had the satisfaction during the course of this debate ot hearing, in language more strong than any used by the greatest centralist iii the House, from gentlemen usually deemed to have.ultra-provincialist views, that ultra-provincialism was the height of folly. The change is the most complete that could have been anticipated. I think these gentlemen can hardly go back. I attribute the whole of that, good to the speech of the hon. gentleman, the Colonial Treasurer. I cannot but agree with many poiuU in his financial statement, seeing that it has confirmed the words which I have uttered in past years, without being believed j but those words cannot fail of obtaining belief now. The honourable the Colonial Treasurer

tells us that the colony has been taxed to pay Provincial salaries, and to support the extravagance Of Provincial Governments. That sentiment'pervaded the whole of his

speech from the beginning to the last. I will lay.before the House a few points win-It struck me while listening to that spee b. The lion, member for Bruce asked

"whence was the sum of £183,000 surplit: money over-paid to the provinces derived V

The Colonial Treasurer himself answered the question. He said that £626,000 had been distributed to the provinces in two years and a half, and that if there had been no increase of taxation such a distribution could not have taken place. Will anybody now 3ay that the colony has not been taxed to support the extravagance Of Provincial authorities. They could have carried on the provinces without any additional taxation if they had been determined to practise the economy incumbent upon them. The hon. member for Gladstone asked bow it came to pass, if we had this, surplus cash which the Colonial Treasurer tells us he has over-paid the provinces, that it was paid to the provinces ? My answer is that Provincialism has been

rampant in this House for some years past, and that no question of any importance has been raised that Ministers, whom I believe to be as independent men as any that exist, have not had to go either to the extreme North or to the extreme South, in order to make some kind of arrangement by which the support Of either tlie extreme South or the extreme North could he obtained, and if they did not get the support, from one or other of these divisions, their measures mus6 be abandoned and they must leave office. As Chairman of the Public Petitions Committee it has been my lot to look into the irregularities of

Government in past years. I attribute the non-redress of these irregularities to the constant changes in the Ministries of the country, They have not time to attend to the complaints ; when the Petitions Committee recommend that any of these irregularities

should he removed, they speedily quit olHee, and the whole question is forgotten and buried. Can there be a greater evil than that wrongs should remain unremedied because we are constantly changing Ministers ? It is not so much their fault as their misfortune. But I

hiive also to say that I think Ministers lire altogether wrong in their support of the provinces as delineated in this financial statement. I object altogether to the repeal of the Allocation Act. If some of the provinces are in distress let us come to a brotherly settlement. We do not want to be hard upon them ; what has occurred in past years shews that we never wished to be hard upon them ; We have been liberal in the extreme to those provinces which were in distress, and I trust it will always lie so. But that is no ground for wiping off the claims which we hold against them. It lias baen said that we should soon cease to hear of difficulties, and that Auckland would yet rise and prosper. I hope she may, but I hope there will also be an acknowledgment of the debt due by Auckland, and that when the time comes that she shall be prosperous, she will pay it. I object tothatyery mild word—l will not call it a quibble— of the lion, the Colonial Treasurer, that the Three Million Loan has been held as authorizing the raising of an additional £260,000, I should like to know what is the meaning of this. Did lion, members who were parties to. that Three Million Loan mean that One pound'more should be received by tlm provinces, or that the colony was to be put to one farthing more expense ? If it is allowable to raise more than the three mil-

lions specified in the Loan Act, on the plea of loss by discount, and put it on as an addition, so long as the discount exists so long will the colony go on increasing its debt. Then comes the provision tor borrowing. I object to any fresh loan. I have looked into some of the items for which money is wanted. The honourable gentleman says he wants 4-47,412 for the extension of the telegraph. Will Ministers tell me that the state of the North Island is such that it is fit to have the telegraph extended throughout it ? Mr-HAi.li.; W.e will spend all that. Mr CiucßOi'T Wilson, C.8.: Does the state of the country justify it? Is the honourable gentleman aware that when the enemy gets-possession of a country the first thing lie-does is to destroy the telegraph ? Mr -'.HaHj : -The telegraph stood through the whole of the war, and was never touched. Mr QiUcitoFT Wusom, C.8.: You cannot retain, the telegraph when it runs through an enemy's,country. 1 have been shot at with slugs made of the telegraph wire, and that is the use to: which probably the honourable gentleman's telegraph wire will he put if he extends it until the country is more settled. Will the Uriwcras who murdered Mr Bennett White: and: the Arawa postman respect the telegraph wire ? So much for the Kast Coast. With regard to the West Coast, has Anything been done with reference to the muril.er-of a man named Brady. Are not the murderers walking at large where they like? fie wits.' murdered for some priest or other. Would such, men be likely to let the telegraph wire reiiiain in its position. Ido not think they will, and certainly i think the telegraph would notstand.until the country shall he in a more'settled state. I would therefore suggest that the'"expenditure on that account slioiild he suspended. Then, as to lighthouses, rather than borrow money I would rather that they .should not be built for some time. Wiill ..regard to defence, wo must spend some money in keeping up a certain amount Of. force. But if the provinces of ■■the North' island will only do as the people of Napier did a short time ago, and turn out to resist such an aggressive attempt as was then made upon their province, I would willingly, vote the money .to-:'repay such province for having done its duty nobly. Hut when lam told by provinces that are not particularly fond of fighting, that they can maintain the peace of

the country and would do it, if not interfered with by the votes of Southern members, I may be allowed to be a little sceptical on the subjeet. Let the colony find tiie cost when it is necessary to turn out to resist any aggressive movement of the kind, ami let the provinces manage the business as economically as they can. Ido not know what the expenses of the campaign in Napier were, but I presume they were not very great. As to contingent defence, this item would seem to make it clear that the Nortli Island was not yet lit to have a telegraph running through it. Contingent defence means that money must be provided for emergency; at all events, I think that if proper economy were used this colony would Ret on. I must object altogether to the £"> 12,000 which is to he distributed to the provinces. The provinces must have money, there is no doubt about that; hut I would give them a much smaller sum. I would also deduct a large sum from the £542,000 allotted to the General Government. I trust that when I shall commence to move for retrenchment I shall have the support of the honourable gentleman on the Treasury Benches, liut lam not going to take up the time of the House loimer. It seems to me that the colony is not faring very well ut present We all know that it is the habit with the Hindoo, when n father is supposed to be dying, the sous assemble and carry him to the sacred river Ganges, in order that he may die within the holy precincts of the stream. The Hindoo law runs to the elleet that all the sons shall divide the property equally, and I am sorry to say that so anxious are they, on some occasions, to get possession of and divide the paternal estate, that they are not content to allow their father to die in the ordinary way, but they sometimes assist the operations of nature by placing a certain quantity of mud in the parent's mouth, Sir, it strikes me that this colony is in the position of the Hindoo father ; be has nine sons, and only two of them appear to me to wish to resist the operation of putting mud into the old gentleman's mouth, and these two sons may be called Napier and Nelson. But, Sir, I am afraid the rest of the sons are too grasping, and want to accelerate the process, so that they can get rid of the elderly gentleman as soon as possible. Sir, 1 trust this debate will do away with what has been the practice for some time past, namely, that every sacrifice should he made by the Miniitry to the provincial : st party, in order that the government of the country may be carried on—in fact without these provineialist votes they cannot do it; but as the sentiments of the ultra-provincialists expressed tonight shew they are no longer ultra-provin-dally inclined, but are desirous of the good of the colony, I trust there will be no difficulty in future in retaining the present or any other Ministry in office. (Continued in our Supplement.)