HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Lyttelton Times, Volume XXII, Issue 1331, 15 December 1864, Page 2 (Supplement)

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Monday, November 28. tHE MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. Mr. Weld rose and said : Sir, I rise to exercise

*that ritflit which you have just alluded to—to speak just after the adjournment of the debate; because ! have felt that it would .be for the convenience of hon. members that I should take the earliest opportunity of giving, as far as possible, a statement of the views and intentions of this Ministry. It is, I believe, a custom peculiar to New Zealand, or rather t<v the House, to expect what we call statements of Ministors; but so far as I know, in Englund it. is hardly usual for a Minister to get up and make a genera statement, comprising a kind of programme of all that is going to be done session. At the same time, there were certain , advantages in our, system; and, so far as possible, I intend to comply with it. There are somes questions, however, that I think would be more fittingly treated as they rise up; and I hope at a very early period of the session —Within a very few days—to be able to speak, with my colleagues, also upon special points of policy which now I do not intend to touch upon, or if touched upon only in a cursory and general way, because I am sure the House will feel with me that nothing would be more disastrous than for a Ministry, hurriedly and upon the spur of the moment tu attempt to speak upon facts and duties before its mind is made up. I, therefore, think it will be probably best for me to go over certain items of his Excellency's speech, or more properly the reply to that speech, and to take that as the order in which I shall lay my views before the House. When I come tc any paragraph «f which I may believe the consideration might be more properly deferred, I shall point that out. The first subject to which his Excellency refers in his speech is the reason which led him to call the Assembly. With regard to the resignation of the late Ministry, I do not intend to enter into that question, as I think it would be _no part of my duty to enter into subjects upon which necessarily one must be very imperfectly informed. With regard to the state of the country, I think it must be obvious to all the members of the House; You know that the country is in that state in which if at any time the Assembly of the representatives of the country might be fairly called upon to aid the Executive, then this is the time. I shall make no further comment upon that paragraph. The next paragraph stated,' " With the least possible delay I : have appointed gentlemen of both Houses of, .the Legislature as my constitutional advisers." Now upon this point I wish to place before the' House somewhat plainly, my own views of the duties of constitutional advisers, as well as their position or present peculiar state, or relation between his Excellency and Ministers. It appears to me, sir, that the proper constitutional course—and that is the one I shall endeavour to adopt—is for the Ministry to treat the constitutional sovereign as a person with whom I consider it would be their duty to consult—to give his views the same weight that a constitutional sovereign might be expected to exercise in his relations to the Ministry at home; and after consultation and taking into consideration the arguments adduced—supposing any difference to occur—then, in the case of a difference, and on this I take my stand, it will be my duty, and I believe it is the root or origin of constitutional government —upon the first difference—whether upon native matters or other subjects—l believe it will be our duty to resign. (Hear, hear.) I think that is the root of all constitutional governments. You have doubtless seen, gentlemen, in a paper presented to the House certain stipulations, which I felt it my duty to lay before his Excellency before I would take upon myself the task of endeavouring to form a Ministry. Well,, sir, I will direct the attention of the House to the proposal which really to my mind appears to convey the whoje gist, the whole value, of the memoranda. It is No. 8 in my memorandum, and upon that, it appears to me the whole thing rests:—" Mr. Weld thinks it right to state frankly that if the Governor should feel it his duty to differ on any material point with his constitutional advisers, Mr. Weld would, without hesitation, place his, resignation in his Excellency's bands. He, therefore,. considers it essential that in such a case the Assembly should at once be called, or other advisers summoned." That appears to me to meet the whole case. The English Government is assisting us with large moneys, with large supplies of men, and so long as they are in that position—of aiding the colony by very large assistance, so long they would demand—and in my opinion they have a right to demand—that they should have some voice in the management of the affairs of the country. (Hear, hear.) I do not say, sir, we have not other rights, and so long as I hold the position I do at the present moment, shall not fail to exercise them Bhould occasion require. Wc have a right to'offer our emphatic protest in. native or other matters, and if the difference continued, to resign. But I think, sir, that no Governor, that no constitutional sovereign can—if men are to be found in the colony who. take the first opportunity of asserting that right of the representatives of the people of New Zealand.—l believe that no Government can ultimately resist the pressure of the feeling of the people of this country. (Hear, hear.) I believe there is a constitutional end to be gained, and a great public good gained by the check that may be given by the formation of another Ministry. But I will say that although, it may be well that the constitutional sovereign should have that check—it gives time for further consideration or delay—and would be able to delay, perhaps to the very great displeasure of the country the smooth working-of the wheels of Government—still I believe in the end the sustained public opinion must prevail, and if Ministry after Ministry resigns, it is impossible that the people of this country should not gain their «n Is. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I have said I wished to call attention to this paragraph in the memorandum, as I have indicated that it would be my wish to call the General Assembly before I resigned. I do not in the least, in making this statement, wish to reflect in the smallest j way upon the conduct of my predecessors in: resign--1 ing before the General Assembly was called. It is very possible that under th 6 same circumstances I ! might have taken exactly the same course; but I I mean merely that as a matter of opinion, as a matter of practice, I do think it very desirable that we should get out of the custom which is, perhaps creeping up lately upon us of throwing down our cards. (Hear, h jar.) I wish, as I have stated, to resign on j the very first serious difference of opinion—not hurj riedly, and not without endeavouring, by reasoning , and by talking over matters, by giving full weight to any arguments that his Excellency may think right to address to us, but after that, after having in a temperate manner argued over and ascertained the mind of his Excellency—if, after that, there should be any question between us upon which we could not agree, then, sir, I and my pol leagues—l may speak for them as we are of one mind—our resignations should instantly follow; and so far as possible, if indeed at all possible, we should wish to resign after the Assembly had been called. (Hear, hear.) The next paragraph to which I wish to draw the Attention of the House is as follows:—"Steps' will be taken with the least possible delay to secure the future peace of the country by setting apart defined portions of the land of rebel natives for the purpose of satisfying the engagements with military and other permanent settlers, and indemnifying the colony to a reasonable extent by the sale of portions thereof. For expenditure incurred in the suppression of the present rebellion." Now, sir, in entering upon this question, I must, perhaps* ,be a little diffuse—l must go into what I imagine were the reasons for passing the New Zealand Settlements Act. It appears to me the view has. been held—as it was the view of Mr. Charles Buller's committee iii the House of Commona in the year 1844, of which committee Lord Howiek, now Lord Grey, was chairman—that natives had no right to land, except bucH land aa they absolutely cultivated. Well, if that view were tenable now, there is 110 doubt:that the only title of . natives to land would be the title derived under the treaty ol Waitangi. Therefore if they contravened the treaty of Waitangi tlieir title would drop through. I think that view is believed by the House untenable ; and I believe the .wln>Je course of the. legislature of \ this House has shown, that it entirely abandons this, viewf I have hevor kpown it to have many advocates' in this

House. By the Act passed iu 1802 upon the native lands—tho Act passed at Wellington—upon that Act the House took a line entirely inconsistent with the view 1 have just propounded. Therefore,! take it as the unanimous feeling of this House that we could not rest upon that ground for uny confiscation necessary. I therefore dismiss that. There is a second viow—which is that a native forfeits his legal right—l believe it may be sttiS to bo legal as applied to a native in rebellion, and found guilty of treason. Tito latter view, 1 believe, may have many supporters in tile cqlony, and therefore the lands of all such insurgeiit natives become confiscated. Now, with regard to that point of view there is no very great objection—as there is no doubt, according to English law, a man loses his property if he is convicted of treason ; but that can only apply after conviction, but there is another point which I think hits escaped the notice of hon. members who have ; given " some attention' to this subject; and it certainly did escape my noticO, unless until very lately, and that is that the law of forfeiture for treason, if applying ill England didnot apply to its possessions, ; As for instance, the law, I think, is different iu Ceylon and other colonies ; as I think I should be able to show by a little lookingup of authorities. The reason that, a man's descendants lose their property and lands in consequence of treason in England is, in consequence of its descending under a feudal tenure, (Hear.) But iu other countriesthat is not the law. In the British colonies 1 think it cannot be shown that is the law 5 and the House, therefore.it appears to mo, thought it would not rely on either of these pleas; And, therefore, feeling as I do that it is necessary future rebellion should be checked by inflicting such a punishment—which has the advantage of being humane as well as efficacious—a.punisliment which will cause the native to point with regret to such and such a piece of land which he has lost in rebellion—yet it, will probably end in making him a richer, a better, and a more civilized man, by its operation. Well, the House having come to this view or . way of thinking it fair that -the native, whose conduct had led to. this war, should pay a _ share towards the cost of the war; and therefore it was considered that new legislation was necessary/consequently it placed uppn the statute book the Settle* ments Act of last ses'sion. My own opinion with regard to the intention of the operations of that Settlements Act' was, and I believe an hon. friend of mine will bear me out that the same view had been, taken by the Domett Government. The intention of the Government in proposing that policy, and the intention of the House in adopting it was to fortify thdr position, was to inflict punishment, and to recoup advances already made, or to meet expenditure made by the colony upon the war. But the primary object was to put the provinces of Auckland and : Taranaki,and other threatened provinces, in as secure a position as possible. It is my intention now to recotn-: mend that for the purpose we . have already mentioned, blocks of land should be confiscated, and that it should be confiscated specifically in such positions as may increase the strength of the country, and not give us a large floating undefined confiscation, extending over.distant portions of the country,' and which it would tax this countryfar above its resources to sustain. (hear : hear.) My idea is to strengthen the colony by settlements of colonists in self-supporting, selfdependent positions—(hear, hear)—and not to weaken it by prolonging unnecessary hostilities and confiscation of vague floating blocks throughout the country. I hope that in that the hOn. gentleman who preceded me will. coincide in my views ; but I may mention the mere possibility of difference, because I was not quite clear whether the Jate Ministry agreed with the present Ministry upon that point. With reference to this remark, I may say, sir, that should we remain on these benches, we shall at once recommend to his Excellency that no delay, should take place before putting the proposition into effect. I have already told the House that if his Excellency thinks fit to differ from us, there is but one course open to us. (Hear, hear.) I would also at this period of my statement make some reference to the emigration scheme which has been carried out under the auspices of the late Government. I wish to say that the papers upon this subject have not been printed, and I have not so far been able to master them. Atthe same time, I may state my idea is that the feeling in the House was that they should have military settlers, and not settlers incapable of defending themselves. (Hear.) That certainly has been my feeling ; but I do not wish the Council.to prejudge that question, as I am not thoroughly informed upon.it until papers are laid upon the table. But I see the last Ministry lias already stopped this emigration ; and certainly if they had not done so we should have felt it our duty to interfere. Now, sir, there is another question which ! introduce really heartily, knowing that the House will agree with me; yet I do not consider that this is a question entirely I agree to ; but that is perhaps rather a. reason why I ought to take the first opportunity of stating my views upon the matter. That is, the question of disarming the natives, and it is one upon which I have always expressed a strong opinion. I remember when I was a member of a former Ministry, of which the hon. member for Nelson was the head, and which was called the War Ministry, it was thought to be useless and not advisable to attempt a general disarmament of natives. I do not know whether our predecessors differ from us upon that, or how far, and it is possible they may accord with us upon that also. But I will state my view that that is a question of peace. That the defeated natives may be called upon to give up their arms in token of submission I quite agree with, but farther, if hon. gentlemen mean that we are to say that we will disarm the whole of the natives in New Zealand (No, no) ; then I must say such a thing is absolutely preposterous. It is like, the old story—one could attempt to do it: but in the first place it was impossible. But I will ask you do you believe that you could succeed simply in disarming the friendly natives, and leaving them at the mercy of their enemies? I say, if you take a few rusty muskets from a few rebels, such is the desire of the natives for arms that the muskets would be replaced by new rifles. That certainly was not the object in disarming the natives. But there is still a higher ground, as I think we have no right to drive , any set of people into warfare. There is no doubt that the Maoris, with their many faults, have many virtues; and the Auckland people have not been ashamed to confess they are a noble foe. (Hear, hear.) Well, sir, it would be a crime, to drive these people, to despair, as we should do if we drove them into a corner, in which they must feel, as we should surely feel if in their . place, that we desired to disarm them first, and fall upon them afterwards. Therefore, as I have said, the arms taken should not be by an indiscriminate disarmament. (Hear, hear.) The next paragraph in the Governor's speech is with regard to the province of Taranaki and the Ngatiruanui district, which still remains in a state of disturbance; and it is my intention as soon as possible to place the settlement of Taranaki on a firm and secure footing. To forward this a bill will be laid before you to. enable the, Government to acquire land for the formation of roads, &c. Well, sir,. I think it is not necessary for me to address the House upon this subject at any length ; but I will simply express my feeling in union with ; hon. gentlemen opposite, with hon. gentlemen ill this House of whatever shade of politics, or whatever may have been the cause of dif-> ference of parties in the House—l think we are all united, as well as every person in the country, in saying that the state of Taranaki is intolerable—is a disgrace not only to this colony, (hear, hear), but the British Empire. It is desirable that the earliest and most energetic steps should be made to put an end to what, I think, the hon. member for Christchurch stated, as a menace to every colonial settlement similarly situated in the British dominions. Well, sir, we propose to advise his, Excellency, and in so doing we wish not to take to ourselves one tittle of applause which is due to our friends opposite, as it is probable they have previously requested Ills ,Ex-; celiency to take prompt and energetic steps to settle this Taranaki question once and for ever. Our view in this respect is, that our policy mainly bases itself upon the question of road-making. I consider that the history of the great colonizing nationa of antiquity, made up" of barbarous races, points out to us that lesson which in recent days, up to the India Of yesterday and to-day, has always been a lesson of experience, that to tame the savage country is to drive your roads through the country, (Hear.) For my own part, if .I may be adviser to his Excellency in this question, I should make my first cry<— " lioads, roads, roads." , I should say to the native*, We will carry roadi through the whole of this country, from the north to the south." I would let them know that we will not say that it shall be done to-day or to-morrow. I would not say any time we would take, but that we had a right to proceed through any part of the country to make our lines of communication complete. (Hear.) In doing this I would not necessarily say to the natives .that we shall do it by' compulsion. I would say, if you choose tolflght we , shall be ready to fight; if you choose to work we shall - be ready to pay. I would invite those natives not actually hostile, tp work on the roafls, as I believe that would be jtlie. most civilising element), and if ,the ; natives attempted to stop the progress of tjie;Jvo.rJw, J. should repel all? attacks which Vjvould prevent pushing this line. through the country.; .And,; when onCe we can get to a speedy realisation of ttyis

view, I shall at once commence the road-making at all wonts between Taranaki and Wanganui. It would be brft fair to the policy of the Government that in those provinces tho roads made should be at the cost of the provinces* That would undoubtedly bo a part of the policy of the Government. I feel quite sure tlmt the expense would not fall so heavily on the provinces, because in the case of insurgentnatives who could not offer an armed opposition—as in some cas<Ss they would do so.—the land which would be taken for ;the completion of these lines of road, where we had military possession of the eotm* try, would 110 doiibt prevent this expense falling so heavily upon the provinces charged. Whilst I am upon this point, I may say a few words upon the future native policy* I will only say this, that in my opinion attempts to force institutions upon natives have been, and will be, a failure. (Hear, hear.) I think in the most benevolent nature we shall fail in driving nativeiS to accept institutions. I think if occasion arises, as, happily, I hope it will arise, if we can lead the natives to des(re institutions, then, I think, It will be our duty to try to meet their views -r-jto co-operate with tliem. But I entirely go against any system which may he called bribery, to induce them to accept those institutions. I believe myself that the main hope of the country lies in the Native Land Act, passed at Wellington. I believe that our desire must be to give the natives an interest in this, thus enabling them to sell or 16t their land immediately. I believe that if we can induce the natives to realise their 1 land with Europeans—l think that if we can do that, we shall have a more powerful guarantee than if possessed of twenty thousand Acts. I believe in appealing to what we all understand is the primary and main instinct of the uncultivated human mind—the instinct of self-interest-— we shall have the surest guarantee for the peace of the country. (Hear.) His Excellency is pleased to say that" her Majesty having seen fit to entrust to me large and discretionary powers so long as the colony accepts tlie aid of British troops for the suppredion of internal disturbtaces, it will be your duty to consider whether the time has arrived when the colony may depend upon its own resources for its internal defence, aiid the Governor be thereby > enabled to be guided entirely by (he recommendations of his constitutional advisers in native as well as in ordinary matters, excepting only in such as i may directly concern Imperial interests and the pretogative of the Crown" Now, sir, this is a very imi portant passage in his Excellency's, speech. Pur- - posely the reply has been so worded as not to commit you, in this debate, to an expression of opinion on this subject. I recommend that a subject of such great importance ought to he treated by itself; and in the resolutions of which I have given notice to move on Wednesday next, we shall have a little more on this subject. We thought it only fair to the House, upoii such an important subject, and which : swell demands your serious and calm deliberation, to consider it separately. Therefore I will not allude to that subject further, but reserve what I have to say until Wednesday next, when I intend to bring the subject before the House. You observe that it says," We will consider the question;" so that it does not bind the House to accept that proposition. We are only to consider it. The next paragraph is to move the seat of Government to Wellington. "In accordance with the decision of Commissioners acting under resolutions of both Houses of Legislature, F propose immediately to remove the seat of government to Wellington." Now, sir, that is a question which has been very fully debated last session. My ■Own opinion is that we are acting in this matterthat we are simply carrying out the already expressed views of the House—views certainly which it will be competent for lion, members to contradict. But as the matter stands we are carrying out the views of both Houses of Legislature. Therefore I shall not enter upon any proposal or argument in the matter. I will only just allude, to one remark which fell from my hon. friend who sits next to me (Mr. J. O'Neill), when criticising the composition of the Ministry in his happiest manner, that we had no Auckland member amongst us. Well, sir, I stand -here to plead guilty to that impeachment; but I will ask you, sir, could I have gone to any hon. friend in Auckland, in the present state of public opinion in Auckland, and ask him to take office in any Ministry which had made the seat of government a Ministerial question ? (" Yes.); An hon. member says "yes." Well, I might have gone, but I fear after what has passed I might have been refused. The political interests of the colony imperatively demand the removal of the seat of Government, but in a few years hence, the independence of this magnificent province will not in any w ay be affected by the removal of the Government. In a short time the Auckland men would boast as »the Canterbury men now did of their internal resources and of their entire independence of extraneous aid. He hoped no one would think that , he was in any way actuated against Auckland, he ■ would prove when the seat of Goverrnioent was removed that the interests of the province were as well looked after, at a distance as they were at home. When this question, was once and for ever settled, ! this splendid province would again resume the proud position that she had always held in this colony, and be properly represented in the Ministry. The following proposition with regard to the £1.000,000 loan, " Our most earnest attention, will as far as possible, this session be directed to the financial position, of:this Colony, and our deliberations .'will be influenced, on the one band by a due regard to the interests of the public creditors, and on the other, to the arrangements entered into with the provinces." It appeared to him that it was impossible to accept this loan. They should state, to the Home Government that they were obliged to refuse this loan on their terms, as they could not accept it with honour. They had to pay a due regard to the interests of the public creditors. Such a line would raise them in the opinion of the Home Government. As to finances, he would say nothing at present. The Colonial Treasurer wo,uld on Thursday be prepared with the financial statement. At the same time he wished to say that it might be necessary to ask to 'be allowed to issue exchequer billa. (A voice: Besides the loan.) The honourable gentleman would excuse him, but he did not intend.to enter*into any particulars. ' They would respect the interests of the pro- ; vince to the utmost of their power. Then to pass 'to the next paragraph, which was, "It will bo our "duty and our object to uphold the credit of the colony in respect to the contract entered into by an accredited agent of the colony with an English company for the establishment of a postal service by way 'of Panama." He stated, on this.subject, that it was. his intention to bring down a bill, so as to enable members to express their opinion fully. It would be open to the members to make what suggestions they thought fit. He considered that . under the contract they had such power of putting pressure on the company that they certainly intended to remove some obnoxious propositions. The matter could, however, be considered in detail when the bill was brought down. It was however considered of the utmost importance to maintain the service between Australia and New .Zealand. On the subject of re-, adjustmentof therepresentatiorisof the colony he was i about to say that if they were to have a long session he would feel obliged if the/ would tell him so at once. If a number of private bills were to be every day crowded on the notice paper he would claim, as other Ministers had done, an adjournment for some time. If, how- ' 'ever, they were determined to ihave a short session, he could promise, with their assistance, jto get the business over their heads in about a his Excellency could , then be asked to convene another session say in the month of May next. They could not expect a short session if members went on as they were doing at the present time. And now to speak of the Acts which they would have before them. There was no desire to renew th'e Suppression of Rebellion Act when it expired, as it soon would do ; it seemed to be an Act fraught with horror—an Act formed for the destruction of life and property. A very different Act had been passed in 1883;, one which was well adapted to the circumstances jfor; which it was required, and one which worked well. ■ What they now wanted was one which would deal with the prisons, and which would enable communication by water with disaffected parts. Then another Act would be necessary owing to instructions from the Home Government in reference to the Government settlements. Unless they attended to it it would expire. They ' wore therefore bound to tho only course left to them, to'keep it . in the statute book; Another bill concerned the Panmure settlement, and another concerning the,purchase of some land in Wellington. The •issue of Treasury Bills was necessary to the interests of the province. He would conclude hy saying a few words of their reason? for taking office. They had taken office, as it was palpable to all men, at a tinie of perhaps greatest difficulty that was ever known in New Zealand. He had lived a long time here, but he had never before seen a crisis of. such difficulty. The men who had now come forward as ; sentries over their country must be prepared to ' stand a perfect avalanche of financial difficulty, 1 They, in accepting the Ministry felt that they must be regardless, not only of private interests, but there 1 ' was a .possible- sacrifice of political reputation for which they had been long toiling. Mr.: Weld then concluded by saying, "When tfre, consider and ; measure what we have to do, and then look at our . 1 capacity for doing it, we see difficulties which would , almost make better men turn away disheartened ; 1 ,',bui if after ou* .hais toiling we should fAH> it will be < jeeii, that we toiled fell Jn the intereete of the . \ 'country/' i

rw— $ Tuesday, Nov. 20. / Weld would more that a committee db appointed with instructions to prepafe in humble Eddreis to lite Excellency «uclj committee to constat of Messrs. litzjierbert, Atkinson, Richardson. Wayne, and Walker. He would pro--1,088 that the Howe for half an hour, to enable tfte committee to prepare report. f , The House then tdjotiMed fojf half an hour. A . ; Mr. Flteherbert bright up the report to tho ; a^Tli0 l gueaker mcrfed that tltf address a» reported be read a second time. It would be competent for the amendments as each paragraph was read. V ADDBBBB Iff KBFI>T. «Ma> Wpleaseyour Excellency,— •'tfe, Her Majesty dutiful and loyal subjects, the House of Representative*, in Parliament assembled, humbly thank your Excellency for the speech with which you have opened this session. « We have learned, with satisfaction that you have with the least possible delay appointed constitutional advisers. , , ' . "We express the feeling of the colony in uniting with your Excellency in cordial thanks to General Sir puncan Cameron arid Commodore Sir William Wiseman, and to the officers and men of Her Majesty's army and navy and of the colonial forces, for their gallant and successful operations against the insurgent natives, and ,in deeply deploring the loss of many gallant officers and men who have fallen in the execution of their duty. 1 "We have received your Excellency's assurance of your intention to take prompt and energetic me*> sures towards placing the settlement of Taranaki on a firm and secure footing, and restoring; order in that province and the Ngatiruanui district, and we recognise the construction of roads through these and other districts of the Northern Island as a most powerful add necessary means of effecting the pacification of the country. " We concur with your Excellency ih believing it to be our. duty gravely to consider whether the time has arrived when the colony may depend on its own resources for its internal defence, and the Governor be thereby enabled to be guided entirely by the recommendations of his constitutional advisers on native as well us ordinary matters, excepting only in such as may directly concern Imperial interests and the prerogative of the Crown. M We thank your Excellency for the promptitude with Which you propose to carry out the recommendation of Commissioners appointed under resolutions o£ both Houses of the Legislature, by at once removing the .seat of Government to Wellington. " Our most earnest attention will, as far as possible, this session, be directed to the financial position of this colony, and our deliberations will-be influenced, on the'one hand by a due regard to the interests of the public creditors, and on the other, to the engagements entered into with the provinces." "It will be our duty and-our object to uphold the credit of the colony u respect to the contract entered into by an accredited agent of the colony with an English company for the establishment of a postal service by way of Panama. •'We thank your Excellency for the assurance that you give us that you will during the recess, collect such information as may afford materials for a re-adjustment of the representation of the colony. " We participate in your Excellency's confident relianceupon the progressive development of the great resources' of the colony, arising from the continued prosperity Of its agricultural, mining, pastoral and commercial interests.

"We cordially unite with your Excellency in the expression of a hope that, with the blessing of Divine Providence, our deliberations may tend to rescue the colony from its difficulties, and to conduce to the ultimate prosperity of both races of the inhabitants." PANAMA ROUTE. On the following clause being put— "It will be our duty and our object to uphold the credit of the colony in respect to the contract entered into by an accredited agent of the colony with an English company for the- establishment of a postal service by way of Panama." Mr. Kichmond proposed as an amendment— " That this clause should receive the consideration of the House," Which was carried, and the remaining clauses of the address were then passed as. they stood originally. Mr. Fitzherbert moved that the address which had been passed should be presented to his Excellency. THE ADDRESS. On the following day. the Speaker left the chair at five minutes to one, arid proceeded to Government house to present the address to his Excellency. The Speaker returned at fifteen minutes past one o'clock, and resumed his seat. He stated that he had had the honour of waiting upon his Excellency the Governor, accompanied by a large number of the members of the House, and reported the address in reply to .his Excellency's speech. His Excellency was pleased to return the following answeb : Mr. Speaker, Gentlemen of the House of Representatives, I receive with satisfaction your loyal address. . I have every hope that your deliberations will promote the welfare of New Zealand; and it will always be my earnest desire to co-operate cordially with you. . (Signed) G. Gbet. Government House, Auckland, Nov. 29, 1864. CANTERBURY WASTE LAND REGULATIONS. Mri Thomson moved for Wave to bring in a bill to amend the waste land regulations of the province of Canterbury, and described the amendments intended to be introduced into the present regulations. He said that the runholders under the present regulations did not feel safe in spending large sums on improvements; in consequence of the short time the leases of the runs had to run. They had only until 1870. He proposed to extend the time until 1880. He might mention that this was carried in the j Provincial Council by 34 votes out of 35. ; Mr. Dillon Bell said the question vfas one of importance, and it would decide the great principle that ttere are two classes of land in the Middle Island. One is agricultural land, and the other is only fit for pastoral purposes. The bill practically deals with this subject, and if the Provincial Council of a province passes resolutions of such importance, and this House passetythem, they would doing the Southern Provinces an injustice. If this bill is assented to by the House, because it was passed by that Council, he should see ho objection to the introduction by himself of clauses in a bill relating to land in the South—regulations which would make & great difference in the land sales in Southland. He thought the action taken by. the Government last session should be carefully considered. Mr. Weld said a great deiil of respect should be paid to the recoriimendation of Provincial Councils, and they should endeavour to act in conformity with their views, but it. would not be advisable to be led entirely by those recommendations. He would not oppose the bill because he knew the bill. It was one which the Government ought to support, reserving to themselves a right of acting as they might think proper. It was on these grounds he would support the bill. Mr. Wilson trusted he might be forgiven if he said a word or two. The hon. gentleman at the head of the Government answered Mr. Bell. Really lie could not understand him. A bill was sought to be brought in which was interfering in no way with the price of land. There was no alteration made excepting this, that the people of Canterbury think it would be advisable to get a better rate for the land, if they could make an arrangement with the lessees. Now how could any injustice occur to the South from an arrangement of this sort. He knew that for a run which he himself purchased there, when the bill for it came in it was of almost infinitesimal length. Now, why the hon. member should say because in another place the price of land was douhled that this measure should be looked upon with prejudice, he could not say. If any man had a run, | and was willing to pay double rent for it, and is willing to improve that land, what harm was done to a ; single individual. He hoped that this House would , not be misled by any fear thatthis bill was one which i had any ulterior design to do the poor, man out of < buying,lanfl. I Mr. Atkinson said he thought Mr. Bell wished to t learn what was the amount of legislation which would i be allowed to a province on a question of this nature, ] and he thought he deserved the thanks of the House | for bringing it forward. The House interfered last ( year with a resolution of the Provincial Council of j Otago, and they responded to the wishes of the House, i and took the bill at amended. All Mr. Bell asked < was to allow him all the privileges which were ac- t corded to tlie member for Canterbury. a FINANCIAL CONDITION OF TUB COLONY. < Mr. FitzGerald, in moving his motion," That a * Select Committee be appointed to inquire into and c report to the House, tin the oresent financial condi- * tiorf 5 and that such committee consist of Mr. Carle- r ton) Dr.'Featherston, 1 Mr. J; C. Richmond, Mr. 4 Crcisbie Ward, and Mr.; Dillon- Bell; th<* committee { to hrfve. the power to examirieonoftth, and to call * for persons and papers," said he was aware he was $

taking an unusual course in niakinffTllr inquiry into the financial condition of if ? for Under ordinary circumstances a motion nf l™ 0 raeter. might be considered as synonvmm,.''. cha " attack upon the Government of the dav r ♦ an was not the case. Had the late Ministry* R . Uch in power, undoubtedly thev would have been wS* in accepting inch a motion as amountin,A; fied oil confidence against them. The House L! V ote in a somewhat peculiar position for ,i, plil , Ce d Ministry having resigned office without r er l? te to the House an account of financial " 8 he did not look upon the present M-^ airs as responsible for what had taken J& the past, during the tenure of office nf u , m Ministry. The present Ministry, therefor having no feeling on the motion which he lJi honour to submit for the consideration of the » and at any rate could not poa»ibly consider u° Q ÜBe> vote of want of confidence in them, IWMr a Gerald) thought in moving the motion hew*.?" fact, strengthening the hands of the present a? ministration, and he felt sure they did not wi*i\ be placed in an antagonistic position to thpiteajor.. Bjr the Howe adopting hi, moti™ £ considered they would be doing a kindnw. J present Ministry. A motion of this kind ought m to be made under ordinary circumstances, and it» not so done, it was made under peculiar circum stances, and in the present case there wa» Dr i * facie ground to warrant an unusual int«*ferJwl a The House would not forget that it was its esnS duty to ascertain the exact position of the finannLl affairs of the colony, a question as great and imnT tant as any that would occupy the attention of Assembly. The House of Commons in Knekln' had an especial control over the finances of th! country ; so likewise had the House of Represent! tires. It was their peculiar and special charge, and great responsibility attached to them as to th* expenditure of the resources of the count™ If he (Mr. FitzGerakh was asked upon whit ground he could justify his present motion h P would ask, was not the colony at the present time in such a state as to fully warrant him in taking the course he bad? The general impression over the whole colony wa» that the present financial position of the colony was one of the greatest possible danger-one which would justify the House in taking a somewhat unusual course, and making inquiries on the subject There were many precedents in which the House of Commons had taken upon itself, independent of the Government, inquiries into matters affecting the interests of the whole country. Perhaps the best instance he could quote, and one most in the recollection of hon. members, was the case of the Crimean inquiry. In that case the proposal of a committee was accepted as a design upon the Government, and the then Government of Lord Aberdeen thereupon resigned. But upon the next Government reassembling the inquiry was instituted, for the House held that, notwithstanding a new Government being in Office, they were entitled to pursue an independent course, and thereupon the Crimean inquiry took place, and the committee sat for upwards of nine months on the question. How did the colony stand at the present time he would repeat ?—ln a perfect state of ignorance as to how the expenditure of certain money had been carried on during the last eighteen months. Within the last ten minutes there had been placed in the hands of hon. members a statement of the financial condition of the colony. That statement of expenditure went to June, 1863, and contained, he presumed, the disbursements for two months only, instead of twenty. Whatever might be the usual custom, when the expenditure of the country was confined to ordinary objects, and though it might not be usual to publish minutely the accounts, he (Mr. F) looked upon the present period as an extraordinary time, and in which an extraordinary state of things existed. Money was being, or had been spent, to an alarming extent, and he considered the late Government had been very much to blame in keeping the country in the dark as to the way in which the resources of the country were being spent. He would ask if any member of the House knew, not within £10,000, nor £100,000, but within £1,000,000 how much of the loan had been expended. The informatio:i on this point might be wrapped up in the breast of hi 3 honourable friend, the late Colonial Secretary, but upon reading the papers laid on the table of the House, he was very much in doubt whether that gentleman knew more about the matter than he (Mr. F.) himself did. He felt sure no member knew within a million how much of the loan had been expended. It was a very startling fact, and one that could not be denied that hon. members had met at the present session in thorough ignorance of what had been done with the money. It was most certainly a state of things that called upon the House to demand a thorough and searching inquiry into the subject. He (Mr. F.) when he was in the South of the colony, and keeping his eye on passing events tried to make up his mind what portion of the loan might possibly have been spent, and had come to the conclusion it would be a fortunate thing if only one million had disappeared. But events occurring since that time made him believe that at least half a million mere had disappeared. As he came nearer to the sources of information in its power—such as could be obtained from various channels, sometimes from a man in the street, sometimes from somebody in private conversation, who, from somebody else, had heard from a Minister what was going on, and other indirect ways —he should not wonder to find that the whole of the three millions had been expended, much less that there was the million and a half which he had concluded in his mind would be the sum remaining to be spent. Perhaps hfe had been wrongly informed, he bad to gain the best information he could; at any rate himself and honourable members were entitled to information as to what was really going on. if he was told he was misinformed he could only say ne could not forget that a rather startling proposition was made by his hon. friend on the bench the previous evening, when members were threatened with a measure to be brought in immediately for empowering the Government to issue Treasury Bills, considering that three millions o money was placed in the hands of the Government be expended, not in one year, but during such perio as the war might be prolonged. When h° n {p n " men came for additional powers to enable tnem issue Exchequer bills and Treasury notes, without giving any information as to the expenditure of three millions, he could not help but saying that affairs of the country were truly in a very extraordinary condition. It was not only the money J ought to have an inquiry about, but one into the facts disclosed by the papers befor House. Some inquiry should be made respecting the negotiation of the loan. It had D eenann°m in England to be sold at 90, in other words that He w Zealand was prepared to make a sacrifice of io p cent, discount. Yet the honourable gentlema , Colonial Treasurer of the late Ministry, had gi instructions to the agents acting on behalif > colony to sell •' at a discount of 17 per cent., i » that they could sell the remainder for w would fetch. This was a sort of stimulus giveni w the agents of , the colony, who were to receive per cent, commission. Such a proceeding wa from satisfactory. Then again, another half: nnu on having been placed in the New Zealaud Bank most astonishing proceeding. Itwasagre at <1 tion whether Ministers in doing that had no mitted a very great constitutional breach or }• It would be a question for the House tO , e *P r VL; opinion upon Ministers getting rid of public ties in such a manner. It was not the case in y of placing the matter in the hands of an a £ en '' duly receiving information from that agent, prices the securities were likely to fetch, and in a position to tell the agent to refuse or sa certain terms—no, the hon. gentleman had , doned ail responsibility whatever, and hai P it in the hands of a third party to sell for w they could fetch. Questions of such mag made it only proper and right that the House step in and relieve the incoming Goyernmen the position undoubtedly of danger m whic / found themselves, by having an inquiry mto ter which might involve great blame upon those w preceded them. He (Mr. FitzGerald) wouldnot maintain that blame was due to hon. 8 - the late Ministry; they might perhaps be abe to e plain matters during the examination which less the House would place them under, wh€i considered the position in which they were p • and the responsibility they were under in expenditure of the moneys of the country. be most unmistakably the duty of the House some extraordinary steps to mark its sense , proceedings, by having a distinct and expli P nation of such extraordinary factsns were lished by public documents and public rumour. (Mr.FitzGerald) hoped the Colonial Treasurer w accept his (Mr. F.'s) cordial assurance tbrf motion was not intended in the little expressive on his part or that of the Ho trust in the statement which he (the Coloma aut-er) would soon make as to the pos . B j on cbloby. His hon. friend was under the impr that a motion of the present character » gt(lte . come rather after he had made his ® hatically,. ment. But lie (Mr. F.) had told him emptott^. no; for if it had been brought . ked u pon the hew Ministry could not then ha e yote 0 f it in any other light than as expressi therewant of confidence in them. He (Mr. F. fore, pressed on his motion, that

should be given to itj but at the sametime.he would state that, if the Government had any objection to his motion, he should, not feel It: to be his duty to press it on the House against their wishes, but at the same time he thought they; (the Government) would be meeting the temper andfeellng of the House— if he might be allowed to give any advice in that quarter—and adopting a wise; course by accepting the motion, or themselves moving for a committee to inquire into the financial state of the colony. In the selection of the; names for the committee on tho subject, he (Mr, F.) had chosen such, gentlemen «• he thought the House would trust to go simply into the feets of the case. He had excluded many gentlemen whose names the House would ordinarily be glad to see upon a committee, because he thought it would be desirable to leave out the names of any gentlemen members ofthe lato or present Governments, thereby preventing any feeling of antagonism, as also the names of any gentleman who were largely concerned, as directors of the New Zealand Bank, and who doubtless felt considerable interest in what had taken place. He (Mr. FitxGerald) repeated he would not press his motion, if the Government did not wish it, but he earnestly hoped they would accept the feeling of the House, and act accordingly. He felt he had only done his duty in bringing the subject before the attention of the House. „< Mr. Dillon Bell seconded the motion, but it was ultimately withdrawn by the mover at the request of the Miniitrjr* WEDNESDAY, NOT. 30. I RESPONSIBILITY XS NATIVE AFFAIRS. Mr, Weld said: I rise, in accordance with previous notice of motion to move the following resolutions;—> • "That the joint responsibility of Governor and Ministers in the management of native affairs has resulted in divided counsels, and in a vacillating policy which has been • productive of great evil to both races of her Majesty's subjects in this colony,

while it has entailed heavy and unnecessary expenditure both upon Great Britain and on New Zealand.

" That this Home, recognizing the right of the Home Government to insist upon the maintenance of this system of double Government so long as the colony it receiving the aid of British troops for th» suppression of internal disturbances, accepts the alternative and requests the Home Government to withdraw the wholeof its land force from the colony and to issue such instructions to his Excellency the Governor as may enable him to be guided entirely by the recommendations of his constitutional advisers in native asweil as in ordinary affairs, excepting upon such matters as may directly concern Imperial interests and the prerogatives of the Crown. " Thatthe House takes this occasion of expressing its loyalty and devotion to the Crown, its deep gratitude tor the generoiwMsistahce rendered by,the mother country to this colony, and its cordial appreciation of the gallant services performed by her Majesty's land and naval forces in New Zealand. ** That these resolutions be embodied in an humble address to his excellency the Governar, requesting him to transoiit them to her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for the Colonies."

Sir, I do not rise upon this occasion without feeling that I am asking; youto take into consideration the question involved, which is fraught with the greatest consequences, and the decision on which will be fraught with the greatest consequences to the colony. I ask this House to. approach the consideration of this subject, putting aside if possible all party feelings and passions, which, fortunately so far hare not been evoked this session. I ask you to approach - this subject in & calm and deliberate manner. I only .wish I had that power of expressing my feelings in putting both sides of .the question before yon to afford you any aid to approach this subject in a mpde utterly unbiassed by feelings, and simply actuated by a desire to come to a calm conclusion as to what is best for the interest of the colony. For, gentlemen, I am perfectly aware that this,is |L question upon which there is a great deal to be said oni both sides. 1 ask no gentleman to vote for me in this House upon any personal motives—l' mean,; motives of personal friendship—l mean motives of political attachment I do hope that every man in this House, before we go to a division, will use the best efforts of his mind, will act as he thinka best, for the welfate of the country. I recognize that in asking you to accept these proposition s, lam asking you Jto accept a very grave responsibility. I am taking upon myself a very grave and serious responsibility!; because, gentlemen, I cannot conceal from myself, but I will at a later period of the evening. indicate to you the dangers and difficulties in which we should be involved if you were to accept these r propositions. But I myself have calmly, deliberately, and I must say, fully and determinedly, made up my mind upon this subject, I feel it incumbent upon me to take a firm and decided course upon the question. I ask, as I have said before, for no support; I ask no man for his vote ; but I have only been induced to give up' my private wishes and feelings upon one ground. The only thing that could have urged me. to go into the breach, as I. said the other night—the only call which I recognised is the duty to obey ; that is the call from the voice of the<countiy as expressed by this House. But unless I have not only the negative support but the entire confidence of this House, I, for one, am not prepared to take upon myself that very onerous and difficult position which, if the House affords me its firm ana cordial rapport I am prepared to accept; I, sir, shall never khrink from difficulty. It shall never be said of me that I will desert the post into which the feelings of the country and of the House have placed me, as long fas the feeling of the House and country is unmistakably expressed. But if lam not ready to accept amendments of members upon this question, let it not be said—l will ask my hon. friend* on all side? of the . House not to say that I am riding rough shod over the House ; but let them rather say—and I speak of myself, and I speak also the sentiments of my own colleagues, and say— "Hereare a .set of men sitting upon this bench willing to undergo all the risk, of failure, the risk. of political reputation ; to risk all that is most dear to public mien, to say nothing of private inconvenience." We are ready, to undergo all npon one condition—tlie cordial support of this House and the country. ; My own feeling is, that the views we h ft ve enunciated are emphatically the views of two-thirds of the country ; and I believe if we return to our constituents, they will emphatically confirm the view's ! am now laying before you in these resolutions; But Imustask the House, as I said before, to extend tomein their estimation of my conduct, not' being, as some hon. gentlemen may say, obstinate on this point —I will ask thein to afford to me the same consideration that I have already received from his Excellency the Governor. The House is aware that it is not political, it is no question, it is no breach, in any way of confidence, because his Excellency has tolerated meto put before the House in a printed form the record of what has passed between us. 1 wish the House to understand that if tbejr require my services, I take precisely the same views as those I handed to his Excellency. The House can hardly say this is asking too .much. His Excellency might have said, " Sir, if you become my Minister, you shall advise me upon thhi point and that point." His Excellency did not meet me in that way; and, therefore, I say to the House as I said to his Excellency, that if the House concurs with me, and gives roe its full confidence, I am ready to do its work. But I don't wish it to be to put myself in the position of its being said to me, that l am holding office, and have asked my hon. collogues to join me in the P oeitwn ,° f ,'?? havethefull support of the House.andtoMtostend on sentry in a position of position, but rather as men who, in it difficult position, may be told to stop up a position, «» a ~ panein a window a rag may beused-not that U was better than glass, but because glass c°uld not be obtained. I protest against. being called on to give up our personal wishes and possibly our public character, on BUC,I . I ®°"£! +* as those. We are not prepared, gentlemeo.to put ourselves in a position to meet Mourable members at the opening or next ßelßs ™ m >ght say, " Well, the present Ministry no doubt have not. our full confidence} we could them in this, or that, but we would say at i were useful. Itis.no doubt, arointed, and nodoubt, a plucky thing for them to take this wuw,but we don't exactly agree with thein » t next question and the othei: j we will flgh . session!" I think, sir, this House has norjghttoask us to accept that position. We are not prepared to accept it. WeD,sir,supposingtliat our policy doesnot suit the particular mind or meet the views of hon. members; : will put it to the House whether we are the only persohsln this House that the difficult position. Are there not hon. gentlemen in this Honie who of the prominent a part in public aikirs * colony 1 ? I should not be- «ie man—it f „ w ?,!« be BJljJn n f BUD House if we were to: of .sw posing that therewere jiot,, tonse the.wordsor the oW ballad, " five hundred as g^odm W. s does not consist of that number} but that there aremanymen who, would haw the ; support of the feeling <>f the House more than it may be our fortune to^ too high an opinion, I may ti« the New Zealand grandiloquence, not to feel that every hon.

member around me would fulfil their duties as f«ikhfully mm we*end©ttvoiir to fulfil ours. I cannot con'.ceal the difficulties that surround our position# I could not ask yoickito accept these resolutions to agree to such an Act of vital importance did I conceal'from you the great difficulties which surround'us. It shall never be said that we desired to snatch a vote as long as we sit upon, these benches. I am -jaware at present that the expenses of holding our present posiand of promoting the settlements to be formed, Mrill be very great; There is no doubt afiout that, andtho alternative is this:: either you must go to great expense in keeping up the present positions, or yonr alternative will he to withdraw from somj|of them. -Now I put that to the House. For our own part we are ready, if we have the full confidence of the House, to do our best to grapple with these difficulties. We shall endeavour to meet them with all the wisdom which may be bestowed upon us, and with all the spirit which ought to animate honest men. We do not dare to conceal from you that great difficulties will me.et us and stare us in the face. On the other hand, I will say what are the corresponding and counterbalancing advantages. To my mind they far more than counterbalance those dangers. I may be of too sanguine a disposition, but I do say that I don't think the affairs of the colony are quite desperate, Although I think them in a dangerous, a difficult, and a serious condition. The first advantage to which I would call the attention of the House is the subject of this system of double Government, to which I trace almost every danger, almost every embarrassment which has happened during my knowledge of the public affairs of New Zealand. We want security from constant changes of policy, which at present may take place as often as we have a change of Governors from England. For though I believe it may be said, and probably will be said by lion, gentlemen taking notes during the debate, that changes of policy will cause changes of Ministry, I shall not be inclined to accept that dictum to its full extent. I quite agree with hon. members that we shall have changes of Ministry. We have had them often; but it will be found that changes of Ministry, composed of men who, however they may differ from abstract views or predilections, still composed of men who have had ex-j perience in the political affairs of New Zealand, and there will consequently be a principle, a kind of family likeness running through them,—consequently the changes of policy likely to ensue are 1 changes of a very different nature from the changes of" policy likely to ensue from the change of Governors. I do not wish to do more than allude to ' the fact, in elucidation of my views. £70,000 a month has lately been lost by the colony being in a balancing state, owing to the unhappy differences between his Excellency and his Ministers. That alone, to me, would be a sufficient reason for putting an end as soon as possible to the system of double Government; but lion, gentlemen will get up and tell me that at present there is no double Government. I believe that is an argument —not at all improbable—likely to be used; but I must differ from them. I believe up to the present time there as never been in New Zealand real responsible Government. I may be wrong, bnl hon. gentlemen, if I am wrong, will no doubt point ont where lam wrong. It was never attempted in Governor Gore Browne's time, when I had the honour to be a member of the Government, which, was headed by the member for Nelson. We certainly gave our advice to the Governor as bound to do when that advice was asked; but we never put forward the pretension in any way that he was bound to take that advice. That was not under the compact in 1856. For my part I was not in the House in 1856; but if I had been in the House, I might have agreed that there was nothing better to be done. But I have sedulously refrained from saying that I agreed with it; and J believe that I have never heard, any hon. gentleman in this House say that he took it except as an arrangement that was Considered best to be made. Probably, I might have agreed in that view, if I had been there. At all events, up to the time when the Stafford Ministry resigned that was the state of things. Then the Ministry, which succeeded us was that led by Mr. Fox, the hon. member for Rangitikei I am aware that there was a certain kind—l may say there was a difficulty about the question of responsibility during that time. I remember at Wellington there were some complications—there were questions asked and, I believe, an answer given; but I do not think we came to anything very definite, and that nothing, I think, very real was offered to us. And I am quite sure the-feeling of the majority ofthe House was that all that was offered us, to use an emphatic and colonial phrase* was " sham." I remember that feeling was mine, and which was coincided in by a majority of the House. I remember that partly that feeling of the House led to the resignation of the Ministry—the Ministry of Mr. Domett. Mr. Domett's Ministry was sent to the House on the express understanding that there should be no responsible Government on native affairs. They were sent, in on the ground that nothing was offered to us which was a reality ; and it was thought while his Excellency was in a position in which he could claim the complete disposal of native matters this House would simply stultify itself by accepting any kind of responsibility which could not in reality be a real one. On these grounds the House wishing to support his Excellency in every manner possible, the House did not at that time, though believing that the native policy carriedout was not wise, still thinking that we might do an unpatriotic thingby impeding his Excellency's action,as I believe it would have done, and especially when we could not replace that action by our own ; consequently in Mr. Domett's Government there was no responsibility in native as in ordinary matters. Then came the Government of the hon. member Mr. Whitaker, in which the member for Rangitikei was leader in this House. Well, the Duke of Newcastle had written a dispatch a portion of which I ; may read to the House. It says:—" Your constitutional position with regard to' your advisers will (as desired by your late Ministry) be the same in regard to native as to ordinary colonial affairs ; that is to say, you will be generally bound to give effect to the policy which they recommend for your adoption, and for which, therefore, they will be responsible. I say generally, because there remain several contingencies in which it would be your duty to act upon your own judgment in opposition to theirs, you would be bound to exercise the negative powers which you possess, by preventing any step which invaded Imperial rights, or was at variance with the pledges on the faith of which her Majesty's Government Required the sovereignty of New Zealand, or in any other ways marked by evident injustice towards her Majesty's subjects of the native race." Well, when I read that dispatch I remember that I was attending a meeting of the constituents of Canterbury members at Christchurch. I at once made up my mind that as this responsibility was forced upon us contrary to the wishes of the House in the preceding session, there was but one course of policy to follow. We could only submit. Our view was to do that until we could get an absolute reality. I have at all times, on every occasion on which it has been my duty to speak in this House, persistently from first to last, been w»hng to accept any real responsibility; and I have also to hope I shall continue to take the same course of resolutely battling against the acceptance of anything riot a reality, but a delusion. Consequently, on this occasion I say that now we are bound to accept what was forced upon us by the Home Government; but even then it was not a reality. There was a warning in those little paragraphs that such was the case—(Hear, hear.)—that whenever it suited the Government to interfere it would interfere; that we should be allowed to play with responsibility ; and when the conditions we .have just read to you may be applied, the Home Government comes out and takes possession of those rights which it had apparently constituted, The question is, will the House accept it. I was unfortunately, from domestic causes, unable to be present at the beginning of last session. In reply to his Excellency's speech, I believe the late Premier in his address proposed and t carried, with the concurrence of the House, the offer I made by the Duke of Newcastle. /Mr. Fox: There yrere separate resolutions on the subject.) However, this House did cordially accede to it; I do not know that the House could have done otherwise; but 1 think it might. If I had been here have suggested that it was not a real offer—that it would not be bona fide, that it did not embrace the whole thing. Then came Mr. Card well's dispatches, which will be so fresh in the memory of the House that I need not further refer to them,-but at any it shows us that the acceptance of the view put upon the Duke of Newcastle's dispatch was correct. The member was interrupted at this point by the Speaker, and the orders of the day having been tflken f Major Richardson moved that the debate be reSU Mr? Weld: Sir, I had better then resume the debate, which was interrupted somewhat suddenly and unexpectedly. I think when I sat down that I bad first pointed out the view that the House had taken upon the Puke of Newcastle'* dispatch. I had called tothe attention of the House the more recent dispatch of Mr. Cardwell, which I believed, and still believe, bore out my views of the real interpretation of the Duke of: Newcastle's dispatch. I thei%fore say:the tone of my argument was tbat there has Jf®" a donbfe> government up to this time, and I think thesetwo facts sTiow Home Government, though not of the men w£o occupied these seats thfn. They believed

it was a responsible Government. They were mlstnken.and not in a position of carrying out responsible Government. I believe that no Ministry in ' ew ,j ? H ' * IftVC ever een i" that position, and it would bo a mistake for ns sd far to ignore facts as I assume it to have been so, I wish simply to recognise facts so far as l ean, and, I think if I was to appeal to those hon. gentlemen that they would hardly say that they were entirely responsible for every act of his Excellency the Governor up to the time of their resignation, I don't think they are prepared to take praise or blame for every act of his Excellency up to the present time, because if they repudiate this doctrine they ought to have resigned on the first serious difference of opinion. It is not my wish to misrepresent r hn position of those hon. gentlemen, but if they did not resign on the first serious difference of opinion, I should not they will say they were responsible officers. i;hey would say many things Were done during our tenure of office for which we are not responsible; if they do not take that position then I say they ought to have resigned several months before they did. 1 lien I cotne to the position which I now hold, and I do say for. myself and colleagues, tbat we have at least put that position in a somewhat intelligible way before the House. We have told his Excellency that we will resign as soon a* we disagree with him. We have told him that we desire to treat him with,

that proper respect and consideration which we fully believe his position entitles him to. I will not go over the same ground again, but I will repeat merely, that we said to his Excellency, he should be consulted as a constitutional adviser is consulted in a constitutional country like England. We told him what we should do—we should ask his opinion, and if we differ from him we should at once resign, and I did this in as strong words as it was possible for me to express any thing,and my colleagues thoroughly agree with me that we will take the blame, of every action of his Excellency the Governor so long as we are his Ministers. We will not stop in office one day nor one hour longer than may be absolutely necessary and proper for the purpose of calling the Assembly together, and resign in the presence of the Assembly; longer than that we will not stop in office one hour. When a serious difference of opinion arises between us and his Excellency upon any question, native or domestic, we shall, I repeat, immediately resign our office; and I believe tbat if other Ministers who may succeed us will take the same view, and adopt as firm a stand, and if this House will accept these resolutions which I have the: honour of laying before them, I believe we shall then obtain a real constitutional Government, a constitutional Government as a thing rather of precedent than of memoranda or written agreement. I believe it is a delicate matter which rests upon feeling and upon precedents rather than upon any kind of agreement. The proposition submitted to me by his Excellency is the principle which I maintained for the distinct enunciation of my intention and determination to resign on the first occasion that his Excellency should seriously differ with me in opinion. Now if this House can get successive Ministries to take that firm stand which for the first time in New Zealand the Ministry have taken, if, I say, the House can get future Ministers who in the course of events, or in the rotation as it were of the wheel of fortune may succeed, then, I think, at some future period I may be able to rise in my seat,and congratulate the House for achieving the object for which wehave been struggling for a great number of years. I believe, sir, that in order to. obtain this important power for the country, to enable us to attain this great end,that it is necessary and important that we should take that position with the Home Government which we intend to take.and ask the House to take, when we request thein to adopt and consent to these resolutions. I believe it is absolutely useless to attempt to argue the matter. I believe that Ministers at home —great men in a great country—that as far as principle and as far as the incentives and motives which give springs to action, and which are the first emotions to their conduct—that though great men, as I have said before, in a great country, they are to a certain extent dependent upon the same principles which we small men in a small country are dependent upon. I think they cannot go in advance, or in contradistinction to the public opinion, and the public feeling which I think, unfortunately, at home has been misled with regard to New Zealand affairs. I, for one, am ready to say, that in so far at least in his first despatch, and still more in his speech in the House of Commons, the Secretary for the Colonies scarcely showed he could possibly succumb to what he must say was an unworthy opinion on the part of the English public—a feeling which I hope is but temporary—a feeling which appears to me to be short-sighted, to be directed by commercial feeling, not a commercial feeling which would actuate a financier, but rather that which would act on narrow and short-minded men. I say this with regret. Every hon. gentleman in this House is aware that there is no man in this House who would hesitate more to say one word which might appear to cast any kind of slur on that country than myself, under whose flag I was born, and under whose flag I hope to die; but it is my duty, sir, standing here in the position I do, to give full vent to feeling. I only hope, and I do trust, having a strong inborn confidence, which I hope every Englishman the real, features and the real truth of the mind of the great English people. I do hope, and Ido trust and do feel, and I have no doubt that this feeling is but temporary —somewhat, in fact, nearly evanescent —one to test thereby, the policy, the nature of which may appear to retrograde or may appear unworthy, but which will appear in time as greater and more enlarged views prevail. I believe, sir, if that view is not a correct one, I can only say, though it may appear vain and ridiculous for a man standing in this Assembly to criticise in any way the opinion of our mother country, I cannot refrain from saying that I can only consider, if such a state of public opinion which really appears to exist does exist, seeming to say "We cannot afford to help these men whom we have prevented from dealing with native questions, and dealing with them in a manner in which they might possibly have prevented many of these difficulties arising, and it now pays us to cast these men aside; we must vituperate. If I thought this was the permanent feeling of England I should myself look upon it with grave apprehension. I Should fear the vital destruction of those vital powers of just reason which really mark the decalogue of a nation. In many of these resolutions there is not in my mind a doubt of the ultimate justice of the English Government and the English public; but I do wish. to express strongly to the House that we shall not be considered in pressing these resolutions, either to undervalue the opinion of the Home Government for their generous assistance; I wish not to undervalue the high duty of gratitude which we owe to great public men like Mr. Fortescue and Mr. Cardwell, for the course they have taken in regard to the colony. No hon. gentleman will think I am proposing these resolutions in any spirit of antagonism, in any suddeu feeling of pettishness in regard to the Home Government. On the contrary, I merely consider that we are in the position of having been subjected by the public opinion , of England to a kind of insult, which, I believe, we have not deserved. I believe the best chance we have for the reconsideration of the matter by the Home Government is to take that course which any private gentlemen would take for the clearing of his own character. Ido not propose for a moment to deny the right of the Home Government at a future period, should it be necessary for Imperial interests. Should our right of self-government have been affirmed by practice and by the or revocation of those questions which now stand in our bluebooks, I should not protest that no English troops should ever be in this country. That is not my meaning. What Ido mean at the present time is, that unless we ask, and when I say. ask, I mean it—l wish hon. gentlemen not to believe that I ask them rather to assent to this in the hope that it will be refused. I say it is our earnest and conscientious wish that that offer should be accepted. I do not want any hon. gentlemen to vote with me, because I am under the impression that it may very probably be said the Home Government will refuse this. Well. I say if they do refuse this, we are in the position of having asked it; but at the same time I do not wish hon. gentlemen to be misled by leaning upon such a reed; for I think it extremely probable that it will be accepted. I say this, that if hon. gentlemen in this House are inclined to lean upon the probability of our offer not being accepted, I should advise them strongly to consider well upon which side they will give their vote to-night; because I for one will not be a party to ask the House and Government to make an offer' which will be rejected I wish to persuade nobody into view; but I wish to put it formally and forcibly Jn this house that in future it may be said, whether we stand or fall, that' we, on these benches, have spoken honestly and firmly upon the subject. I cannot sit down, sir, without paying that tribute to the tervices of her Majesty's forces, both military and naval, which I feel they deserve. _ I feel, sir, that these services have been rendered under great difficulties, and in a country offering great natural impediments to the operations of regular troops, acting as they did a foe whose irregular organization; and the character of the country, made formidable—not un&ble to mefet her Majesty's forces in the Held without the u&sistaiiee of fortifications, but from ie * e J7 , , was difficult< to *cppe with them by forces framed especially far the circumstances of regular wairfare. I think it for Mto

every occasion of rendering our thanks to them as nn 'earnest recognition of their nervous; and'l do hope that in moving these resolutions it may not be in the least misconstrued in any way as underrating the services of the gallant men who have exposed their live?, and in too many cases fatally so, in the service of this country. Ido not allude now only to the "services of those officers of her Majesty's naval and military forces. Among them I may say there are one or two whom I had the honour at least to claim—l will hardly say friendship, but some acquaintance. But there was one gentleman, a member of this House, whom I hope I may say that I could count among my friends—who, both from his public and his public zeal—his zeal for the public service and also in the more intimate relations of private life—was well known. And though I may perhaps not be among the number of his most , intimate friends, still I may be permitted to be en- : rolled as among liig friends, and he will be one whose memory is not soon forgotten by me. And I take this opportunity, from the place in which I am now standing—l know not for how long—l take this opportunity of praising in this particular the feeling in the House and.the country; and Ido hope that in this particular I may be justified, that in asking for the removal of these forces it will be well and thoroughly understood that we are doing so with the most cordial appreciation of the services, and with the warmest.acknowledgment it is possible for us to give to those services, either to the regular or colonial forces wholiave fought and bled and died for us. Sir, I have nearly got to the end of what I . had to sny,as I shall reserve further remarks, should I have occasion' to reply. I have touched hitherto upon political considerations, but I cannot pass over the lower ground, as it may be said by some honourable gentlemen ; however, I can say, on the finance : side of the case it is in itself absolutely impossible and out of the question tbat we can submit to the terms imposed upon us by the retention of the British troops. We cannot pay the sum demanded, and it will be of no use for hon. gentlemen to stand, and for the Ministry to stand up and pledge the Government to the exact carrying out the policy of 1863, as it is commonly called; but if that policy means that we are to have another vote of £3,000,000,1 cannot see my way to carry it out. It must be said, however, all political questions rest upon questions of finance; and I will say this—it is impossible to expect the Middle Island to carry out a policy—if that policy means we are to spend two Or three millions a year. I say that means separation. (Hear.) I cannot stand, and no Ministry will stand,"for a minute that comes down and rests itself upon the insane supposition that more three million loans can be raised and spent with the same facility as this one. I have said already that I shall have .m opportunity of speaking in reply and shall reserve tny remarks upon that. (Applause.) Mr. J. C. Richmond moved the adjournment of the debate for a fortnight, and after considerable discussion it was ultimately determined that tho debate should be resumed on Tuesday next.