EXTRACTS FROM THE DEBATES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Lyttelton Times, Volume XVI, Issue 907, 20 July 1861, Page 3

EXTRACTS FROM THE DEBATES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wednesday, June 26,

UNAUTHOBIZED EXPENDITURE OF PUBLIC MONEY,

Mr. Richmond, in moving for leave to bring in a bill to control the expenditure of public money without the authority of law, said it was a bill in the object of which he thought, or at least hpped, that the House would very generally concur.. Most members of the House would be aware that under the English system the custody of all public money, till duly appropriated, was in charge of a separate department from the Treasury, viz., the Exchequer; the Government of the day only obtaining possession of public monies through the medium of the Exchequer and the instrumentality of the.Legislature. This bill proposed to establish a somewhat similar institution in New Zealand, but with the simplest machinery. There already existed an officer entrusted with public accounts, whose office was quite independent of the Ministry of the day, he being only removable on address of both Houses of the Legislature to the Governor. This officer Ministers proposed to place as a check on the General Government of New Zealand. Hitherto the Colonial Treasurer had had the entire custody of the funds of the colony, whether appropriated or not. This bill raised a distinction between the two. By the same measure they proposed to place a similar check on the provinces, the Provincial Governments being disenabled to obtain control over public monies not appropriated by the Provincial Legislatures. In order, however, to avoid the expense of a separate department, they did not propose to transfer the actual custody of the monies but to impose heavy penalties on the several Treasurers if they issue monies without the. requisite certificate of the Auditor. Every warrant for the issue of money was to have upon it a certificate to the effect that the, sum of money had been'duly appropriated to the services specified by an Appropriation Act. The various occurrences which had lately taken place throughout the colony, to which he did not propose to advert, had induced a general opinion that such a measure was necessary, and he apprehended no opposition to the motion which he now made-for leave to introduce this bill.

Bill brought in, read a first time, ordered to be printed, and to be read a second time on Tuesday next.

Mr. Richmond, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill to provide for the Audit of the Public Accounts of the several Provinces of New Zealand, said this Bill web connected in its' object with the one he had just brought in. It provided for the audit of the public accounts of the several proviuces by an

arrangement similar to that of the Audit Act nf the General Government now in ; operation Thi Exchequer department merely issued the cross amount of appropriation, but it was for the Amlif department to see that the money had been applied to the services for which it had been voted The othcer appointed as Provincial Auditor was'to be the officer to exercise the Exchequer check of the other Act.. They were to be appointed by the Governor, and to hold office during his pleasure but tins might be a subject for considerationT It was necessary to secure their complete independence ot the Provincial Governments, and perhans if would be desirable to give them a more perma^n tenure of office than that derived from hol£ office during the Governor's pleasure. He now moved for leave to bring in this Bill. Bill brought in, read a first time, ordered to be next and t0 be read a BeCOnd time ou Tuesday

CONSIDEBATION OF HIS EXCELLENCY'S MESSAGE No. 2. Mr. Stafford moved message No 2 Mr. Fox said that the House could not proceed w^ut some emanation. This was the fS since the establ.shment of responsible government here that a message had been sent down-fnoV--except on native affairs without the intervention of responsible ministers, and the House, befo^con«dering the message, was bound to hear from his s advisers in what position they stood towards h^^Excellency wiPreference I t£s message When the lateor present unhappy 'wS begun, ;hu Excellency had consulted with <Ifc responsible advisers on the proclamation of martial Jaw, and by them were issued the instructions to send troops to Taranaki, and since that day his Excellency had done nothing without consulting them. A week ago certain resolutions, generally beheved to have been considered at a meeting of the^Executive Conc,l were proposed by the Native Minister and passed by the house without a debate, and, technically at all events, without a division ana- which were considered to represent the mind ot the ; House, and the opinion of the colony at large, as to the position in which it stood with reference^ the war. They had ndw a message •Jfom.hw Excellency, m the first-sentence of which he informed them, that he had not consulted with his responsible advisers on the subject of the message, and m which the contents of those resolutions were stated to be a matter of uncertainty, and his Excellency proposed certain questions to the House on the payment and provision of men to be made oy_tne colony m case this war proceeded. He was not going now into the question of the merits of the subject matter of the resolutions, but he wished to^be informed why this extraordinary course had been pursued in this particular instance that ms Excellency, m sending a message down to this House relating to a matter peculiarly concerning the interests ot the colony (thfamount of men and money to be furnished by it) lid departed from the course prescribed by the minute of 1856 and by her Majesty's instructions, the course of consulting his Executive Council ; and Mr. Kichmoud had yesterday admitted that such a bourse had been pursued m this instance. The House was placed m a new position, and must tread cautiously • for the first time since the establishment of a responsible government, his Excellency had taken, his placemen the floor of this Hous^ He did not mean that his Excellency was to be treated otherwise than with respect, but it wa.s impossible in discussing the subject before the House to avoid referring to the way in which his Excellency had acted. He would how read to the House passages from the memorandum establishing the relations between his Excellency and responsible ministers in 1856, and which had not on this ppinb been since altered or departed from. He would first direct their attention to this passage :-^-« ThatTn all matters under" the control of the Assembly, the Governor shall be guided by the advice of gentlemen responsible to that body, whether it is or not in accordance with his own opinion on the subject in. question. 2. On matters affecting the Queen's prerogative and Imperial interests generally, the Governor will be happy to receive their advice, but when he differs from them in opinion he will (if they desire it) submit their views to the consideration of her Majesty's Secretary of State, adhering to his own till an answer is received." Then in an explanatory memorandum his Excellency referred _ to "clauses 19, 22 and 21 of the royal instructions accompanying his commission which oblige him as a general rule to take advice in all matters of his Executive Council," and then he said " he would not object to limit the members of his Executive Council to his responsible ministers." He (Mr. Fox) assured the House that this was no party move of his, but that he would support the Ministry in fighting the battle of constitutional Government in this matter, but he wished to know what was ministers' position; and if it was one in which they ought not -to, be placed, what steps they intended to take to place the Government of the colony in _ a proper' position. They had heard not long ago in this House, ministers deny their knowledge of an important-notice in a measure controlling the press of this colony. He thought it impossible that that notice could have been issued without some advice, and he hoped there might be no ground 'for suspicion, that in neglecting the advice'of his ministers, his Excellency had resorted to any other person whether connected with the Government or not. He would say no more, but he trusted the Government would give such explanation in connection with this message as the case required. -

Mr. Staffoed was not going to reply to the hon. member's question now: the motion before the House was that it go into Committee to consider his Excellency's message. After some observations to the same effect from Mr. Williamson, Mr. Carleton, Mr. Reader Wood, and Mr. Fitzherberfc,

Mr. Richmond said he confessed he had been surprised at the character of the speches from the opposite side of the House—all sound and fury, signifying nothing—affecting surprise:aT>d indignation which hpn. members did not feel. This matter, he would tell them, was one that was patent to any intellect of ordinary perspicacity (and he presumed that he might assume that on the other side of the House there were some intellects of ordinary perspicacity). Did hon. members really think that Ministers advised the Governor on exclusively Imperial matters? would any one pretend to say that? The matter lay in a nutshell. On one side was the colony and on the other the Imperial Government, and the Governor, on behalf of the latter, came down with this Message, most rightly, without consulting them. The hon. member would not have been astonished if the Governor had come down with a Message on Native affairs without consulting his Ministers, but he (Mr. Richmond) would; for native affairs, though Imperial, were still colonial affairs also, and affairs on which Ministers had a right to advise. But in this case the Governor came down on behalf of Imperial interests, and said, " I am not satisfied with the position taken by the House," including Ministers, of course, and asked on behalf of the Empire that, they should explain themselves. A fairer and more straightforward course was never taken, and ■ he (Mr. Richmond) was thankful to the Governor ■ for having taken it. Moreover, it was not a;! new course, there were precedents absolutely in ii point. One he would name:—ln 1858 it was ! a question whether the 58th Regiment should I be removed. Ministers were opposed to the i removal, and used all the objections they; could, and an address passed both Houses praying • that the regiment might remain. Was it to be'

r tati l)? that wl , le he c^li:^:j™s; the troops and the Nati.eS'ec^^cTnXa with them that the removal of ihose few would^ot endanger the safety of the coLy[Mr. Williamson: Does the-Governor ask "in that case » point, to be supplied with money?] The Governor was not now asking to be supplied with money. It might lead to votes of money £ to a blank refusal; but grants of money would have to be otherwise considered than on this mesbrt'JtFT VOt M ,might gfOW °ut Of the matter, but could not possibly emanate trom the present STth H " * nTff y f°r a money arise the House would have to request his Excellency to send down a recommendation that the money be appropriated. With regard to what had been already^aid to the House, some of the members who had addressed ifc were unaffected in their forP7 in BnOrTv. c- u One of tbem <the member tor Parnell) gave the House to understand that on all but native affairs ministers were not to be consulted. A. grosser blunder he could not have made, ile might be Reused, being a new member, but he should not talk so loud about a thing before he understood it, The hon. member fo? Ran4ikl conceived that a message on native affairs mVht have been sent dowu without consulting ministers but it could not, and thought this was a *gS infraction of the memorandum of 1856 He trusted he had now made the matter clear to those who would see, but to those who would not, he might as Ins hon colleage had sa id, talk for two hours ™ m*king the matter any clearer Mr. Fox explained that he had said that the present was a new course, to which the Colonial Treasurer had said « No, no." He (Mr. Pox) then said except m native affairs, to which that hon member had nodded. '

_ Mr.G'RoEKE said that nothing could be clearer than the words of the Memorandum, and havin* M J*si° ™VP« es Previously quoted by them * 6uld —ie 11° remark UP°"

Thequestion was then put, and the motion for going into committee.

The Speaker then left the Chair, and the House went into committee of .the whole.

Mr. Stafford said, —Sir, with reference to observations which some hon. members have made, I will now state with respect to the Message which we have gone .into committee to consider, that the terms of the Message itself were as entirely unknown to me as to any other member of thig House, before it came down, and that I was not consulted by His Excellency with reference either to sendmgjt down or to forming it. But when I consider, the Message which His Excellency has been pleased to send us, with that careful deliberation which so momentous a question requires, I recognize that His Excellency took a most proper regular, and entirely precedented course, in putting himself into direct communication with this branch of the Legislature, which must decide by a distinct aJI °r , ° the relations between the colony and the mother country on the subject referred to in this Message. Honorable members may try to throw dust over this question, they may propose as one hon. member, if I understood him rightly has proposed, to refer the greatest question which has ever occupied the attention of this House to a select committee, which is thus to determine the future relations which shall subsist between this colony and the mother country on the subiectshutting out from the question the exercise of the judgment, and the expression of the opinions ot all other members of the House, so deeply concerned as all of them are concerned in it. Sir there never was a truer word uttered, than was utterld by an hon. member when he stated that we are at this moment on the eve of a constitutional crisis; but I understand the word in "a different sense from the hon. gentleman; I understand it with reference to our relations with the mother country; I understand it, Sir, as meaning that we are now to give our attention to the subject of his Excellency's message, not by attempting to raise a constitutional question as to his Excellency's right to send messages direct to this House, but by considering the much graver constitutional question of how, in the present critical, circumstances of the colony, which still contains large imperial interests, and still calls in its hour of need, with wide and openmouth, for imperial assistance—we are to affect the imperial power to which we are appealing— whether we are to repel the imperial authorities 0 to which we look for succour, or whether we are to assure those who can influence imperial decisions that we are not Unworthy of attention, that our needs, cares, troubles, and difficulties, have not been brought on ourselves by our want of unanimity, by our ignoring the necessity for unity of action apart from party politics. For in the teeth of the assertion of some hon. members that they are not actuated by party politics in their attempts to-night to drag a red herring across the true scent, —I "agree with ray hon. colleague that they possess sufficient perspicacity to enable them to perceive the true issue in this matter, and what is depending upon it; and perceiving it,they desire to shrink from the question, to shelve it, to- act with respect to it as they would have done—and as I almost expected would have been done—if they had moved the previous question, and not have committed themselves to any opinion upon it at all. Seeing but too well what was depending upon the action to be taken on the subject of his Excellency's message, they wished if possible to lead away the mind of the House to the consideration of a minor question, of how the position and dignity of the ministry was affected by the^ course taken by his Excellency. I deny that there is a single occasion on which it was proper to do so, on which I or my colleagues have failed to uphold the proper position of ministers responsible to this House, but we are not on this grave occasion going to be ".tickled with a straw," or by an attempt to wound our personal pride, influenced to blame his Excellency for doiug what he had both a constitutional right to do, and an imperial necessity for doing. An hon. member (the hoii. member for Onehunga, I think), following up that happy series of blunders previously made on the subject of the relations between his Excellency and his Ministers, stumbled on a memorandum and read a few lines of it, evidently not seeing the real meaning of the words he was reading. In the portion read his Excellency expressly states that upon Imperial questions and those affecting the Royal prerogative he would listen to the advice of Ministers,' but would reserve the right of acting as he thought fit. These very lines, instead of referring to the power surrendered by his Excellency, refer to what was reserved. It was the remaining portion of the memorandum, which the bon. member never read, which gave to responsible Ministers certain powers, but the lines quoted referred to a reservation of powers; and I would call the attention of the committee to the nature of the powers reserved—matters affecting the Royal prerogative. I have ever been accustomed to include among matters of Royal prerogative the right of peace of war. Well, what does this message mean? What is the whole hearing , of it except an invitation from the Govejrnor to the ; representatives of 'the colony to say distinctly aye or no : will you co-operate with the Imperial troops now in the colony, under certain circumstances and possible emergencies, in war or not ? Will you, to the best of your means, or by an hypothecation of a portion of your means, assist, or will you not? The interpretation given by hon. members of this House, and by a portion of the local press to the

resolutions^ moved by my hon. colleague on Wed nesday last perfectly warranted his Excellency ii stating that a great uncertainty existed a? £ what was meant by those resolutions. You mS have seen a letter addressed to the editor of a local paper in. which the writer confesses that be is utterly puzzled as to their meaning, and declarea that the people of England will certainly b TmTe puzzled still. But, however the write? of that letter or the people of England may be puzzled, or however those designated by another journal tto LTm may be P^^itdoesiotbSdme her Majesty s representative to be puzzled oh so important a question. If any man in the colony has a nght to know clearly what the popular branch of the legislature of the colony inSg £re~ii'l V*£* M* Sty'8 "tentative wHb a prev lO us occasxon we have been blamed fo7|iviS his Excellency advice on such matters: (Heari The gravamen of the accusation brought aeainff us ,°T& \ y the hpn ' e^ber fo^he cityTES land West was that we did give advice tolhe Governor on analogous matters, but he now && up in the character of a pillar of constitutidnia privileges (hear), and says that unless Minister, join in denouncing the course which his Excellency Wared to consider the subject of his Excellency^ gat the hon. gentleman should not press it onlhe Hoaw t,ll he had explained whether, he had appS of the course taken by his Excellency. *tproTea Mr STAFFOED-And how could such an objection have fellen from one who formerly held the 2 that it was not our duty to give advice at air or express e,ther^^ approval or disapproval on sucK subjects as that referred to in the message ? The reason which he then assigned for the with! drawal of his confidence from us was that we had meddled in such matters at all, but he now blames us for not meddling when it is convenient for him to assist in this concocted plan which we are told is not a party move. Ido not refer to you, sir in my remarks.though I will not exclude he hbK member for the city of Auckland West

Mr Caelbton-I stated that from my own personal knowledge it was not intended as a party move.] . vailj

Mr. STAPFOKD-r-pgive you credit, sir, for the candid manner m which you have expressed your opinion, and I ; will further say that Ido not doubt that you were led to believe that it was not a party move, but from my own personal knowledge, Tarn led to a different conclusion j to/the belief that people must have been actuated by party motives who, putting aside the greatest question which the colony has ever been asked to consider, seek to consider an inferior question which they might well have left ministers to consider for themselves. I will request the hon. membe^for the city of Auckland west to leave ministers to fight their battles tor themselves, and if unfortunately we are obliged to call m assistance, that hon, member triav be assured that we shall not fight under his shield. It is now my intention, Sir, to move an addre& in reply to his Excellency's message. I cannot pretend to say how the House will deal with this address which no hon. members but ministers themselves have seer^nor.so far as I know, have been aware ot until the House met this evening. The address which I am about to propose is not a long one, but it is one ol the most pregnant addresses ever proposed lor the.consideration of this legislature T* T will now read what I propose this commititW shall report to the House for adoption. "",.".

May it please your Excellency, . her Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects, the House of Representatives, of New Zealand, have taken into our consideration your Excellency's message No. 2, transmitted to this House on the 25th instant. «u™»wa Participating^ your Excellency's anxiety for the success oftiene ? ociations which we understand to be still pending mtn the-insurgent natives, we beg to assure your Excellency, that we do not contemplate the protraction of those negociations beyond the time when your Excellency shall * have ceased to hope for a favourable issue. The maintenance of her Majesty's sovereignty within New Zealand we regard as a matter of Imperial concern, and yet at the same time as one in which the. inhabitants of these islands haye a peculiar and vital interest, since we deem it essential to the firm establishment of peace and to the future security of life and property in this part of her Majesty's dominions. The cost of the necessary measures for the attainment of this great end must be us, at the present juncture, a secondary consideration. To the extent of the limited resources of the colony, this House (so far as in it lies), both as regards men and money, is ready fully and cordially to co-operate with the Imperial Government. And m order more clearly to define, as your Excellency invites us to do, the extent of assistance which the colony is prepared to afford, this House declares its assent to the organization and maintenance of such part of the colonial forces as maybe necessary for the defence of the several settlements, and will approve of the acceptance by the Colonial Government of advances from the commissariat chest for defraying the expenditure, upon the conditions prescribed by the Secretary of State in the despatch (No' 13, 26th January, 1861) referred to by your Excellency

I repeat a more important proposition has never before been submitted to this Legislature; and if hon. members desire to consider a question which deserves above all others not to be made a partyquestion; if they can recognise an occasion in their political life when party should cease to have a charm, and when everything depends on an honest, free, and upright course of action, it is withi reference to the answer which. .18 to be given to his'.Excellency's Message. We need not attempt to hide from ourselves that if we refuse, as a colony, to take our share in a question which, albeit it is an imperial concern, is yet one which also concerns the lives and property of all who inhabit this island, we deserve to be branded, first, as cowards,'secondly, as slaves, and, thirdly, as knaves. I say emphatically, that those who, under, the color of this being merely an Imperial war, demand that all the blood which may be shed, and the treasure which may be expended, shall be that of the mother country, are unworthy of the assistance they ask, and deserve to be branded as slaves and knaves (cheers); and I care not in such a case what may continue to be my connection with the colony, or how long my lot might be cast among such men. I, who have hitherto been a true colonist', and with, a belief in the honor of colonists, have stood up for the colony, and fought her battles against what I conceived to be Imperial encroachments, would, if such a course were adopted, be so disappointed in my hopes for the future of the colony, as to the character of its aspirations —or that fromthis generation there would arise that youthful genius which should upfear a future nation—that I would cease to consider what might be my personal connection with the colony, and the, position I might occupy in this House, would possess so little interest, would be one of such trifling importance in comparison with the future relations of the colony with the mother country, that I should hot care how soon it might terminate, and should think it unworthy of any one who knew the difference between right and wrong to be led to quibble a$ to the position of a responsible. Minister in, such a country. Responsible Minister indeed!". I should esteem it no honour to be a responsible Minister, or to be concerned in governing a country whose people were afraid to risk, in a matter which of all matters most affects themselves and "their children's children, one ounce of their own blood or one pound of their own.money (great applause).

[XO BE COHTHTUBD.]