PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume III, Issue 159, 29 January 1864, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

TUESDAY, January 19th, 1864. ['Continued from our supplementary sheet of Monday last]. Delegated powers to Superintendent under Native Land Purchase Ordinance. Mr. Colenso, pursuant to notice “Asked Ins Honor the Superintendent whether the necessary powers have been delegated to him by his Excellency the Governor to instruct the officer appointed under the Native Land Purchase Ordinance to lay informations against breakers of that Ordinance or whether that officer has power to lay such informations ab initio. The Superintendent, in reply, said it would be necessary to trace .the Ordinance from its commencement, in order to find out in whom the power rested. The General Government did not intend it as an engine of oppression. The delegation of powers was conferred according to circumstances. The Chief of Police formerly held it, particular instructions being issued for particular eases. An order came down here for an information to be laid against the member for Napier, Mr. Colenso. The powers of the first Superintendent had, however, been taken away, and he was not aware of any further delegation. He believed a stop had been put to the laying of informations, and the Act was now virtually inoperative ; but the General Government could at any time delegate powers and issue instructions, although a Bill quite contrary to the Ordinance in question was recently passed, but had not been proclaimed or enforced in this Province. Re-construction of the Executive. Mr. Colenso rose to move, in pursuance of notice given—- “ That it is the opinion of this Council that (in order the more effectually to support and strengthen the Provincial Government, and also to satisfy a large body of the electors) his honor the Superintendent- be respectfully requested to consider the reconstruction of his Executive Council, so that the principal interests of the Province may be fairly represented therein. And, also, that Mr. Speaker do forward a copy of this opinion of the Council to his honor the Superintendent forthwith.” Mr. Bousfield seconded the motion. Messrs. Tiffen, M’Lean, Tuke, and Rhodes, spoke to the motion, when the question was put, and the Council divided as follows : Ayes— 2. Noes, 11. Messrs. Bousfield Messrs. Curling Colenso Dolbel Edwards Fitzgerald Kennedy M’Lean Rhodes Russell Smith Tiffen Tuka Paid Officers in the Council. Mr. FitzGeeald, in pursuance of notice given, moved—- “ That every officer appointed by the Super intendent and paid out of Provincial funds be disqualified from holding a sea in this Council.” Mr. Tiffen was asked last session if he had any objection to a motion of this kind, and so far from that, although he was a salaried officer, he was prepared for the sacrifice, and would then have seconded it. At that time there were four paid officers in a Council of fifteen, —the Superintendent, the Commissioner of Crown Lands, the Provincial Treasurer, and the Provincial Sur-

geon, and ho did not see how such a body could act independently. He should, therefore, second the motion.

Mr. Colenso said the views set fAth by the first Superintendent were contrary to a motion of this kind, and he concurred in them. In a small Province like this it is difficult to find suitable persons to come forward for the Council, especially if they debarred those holding office under Government. A similar measure had been - brought forward in the House of Representatives, but it was thrown out. He bad held both a seat and office at the same time, but ho did not think ho could be accused of supporting, any Government measure on that account. He should vote against the motion. The Superintendent said there might have been some grounds of objection to members holding offices last session, but there could be none at the present time, for there were no paid officers in the Council with the exception of the Superintendent ; and he hoped the mover would withdraw his motion until the usual time for sitting of the Council. ° Mr. Fitzgerald had no objection to withdraw it, with the permission of the House. The motion, however, was put, and the Council divided as follows : Ayes—s Noes—B ; Messrs. Bousfield Messrs. Colenso Edwards Curling Fitzgerald Dolbel Tiffen Kennedy Tuke M’Lean Rhodes Russell Smith ' Mr. Rhodes moved that the Council adjourn till eleven o’clock next day, which was seconded by Mr.- Dolbel, and carried on division by 9 to 4, and the Council then adjourned. The following motions, standing in Messrs. Fitzgerald and M’Lean’s names, lapsed:— “ That it is expedient the management of the Waste Lands of the Province shall be vested in a Board, to consist of not less three and not more than live members. “To move for leave to bring in an ‘Amended Loan Bill.’ ” WEDNESDAY, January 20. The Council met at 11 a.m. Present—all the members, with the exception of Mr. Fitzgerald. The minutes were read by the clerk, and confirmed. Messrs. Tiffen and Colenso gave notices of motion. Purchase of Seventy-mile Bush. Mr. Tiffen, in accordance with notice given Asked the Superintendent what steps (if any) have been taken by the Government for purchasing the 70 mile Bush. The Superintendent, in reply, stated that the Government was anxious to purchase this bush, and would have been in negociation for it but for the absence of one of the principal owners, who was engaged in a feud between the two tribes at Rangitikei. That was the cause of delay. Purchase of Land at PuJcetitiri. Mr. Tiffen, pursuant to notice, — “ Asked his honor the Superintendent whether any attempt has been made to purchase the land in dispute at Puketitiri adjoining the Native Reserve of 500 acres.” The Supeeintendent said that the natives had not yet put an end to the dispute ; but when they were prepared to accept the money offered by Government, he should lose no time in closing with them. Publication of Receipts and Expenditure. Mr. Colenso, according to notice.— “Asked his honor the Superintendent why the usual Quarterly Provincial Abstracts of Receipts and Expenditure, now extending over three Quarters, have not been published in conformity with the Resolution of the Provincial Council.” The Superintendent replied that inadvertently the abstracts had not been published ; but he had given instructions for their immediate. publication. . Provincial Accounts. Mr. Colenso, in pursuance of notice, — “ Asked his honor the Superintendent, why theaccounts of the Province being only forsix months’ have been prepared by the Provincial Auditor and now laid on the table.” The accounts were for six months only, and the Audit Act provided that the only accounts to be laid on the table were those for the financial year. It was imperative that the accounts should be published in a Gazette. The Superintendent said they had been laid on the table for the information of members; but they would shortly be published; amj in future they would be published quarterly, as had been the practice. • Deputy-Superintendent. ( Mr. Colenso, in accordance with notice, moved— “ That his honor the Superintendent be requested to lay on the table fortwith, the letter from the Deputy-Superintendent containing his resignation of that office.” Mr. Ormond had been gazetted asDeputy-Super-intendent and ho (Mr. C.) understood that he had never resigned that office; and he was somewhat astonished when he saw another Deputy-Su-perintendent appointed before the other had resigned. If this was so, according to the Act the. appointment was illegal. Mr. Tiffen seconded the motion. After some explanation from his honor and Mr. Ormond, the motion was withdrawn by the mover. Defence Forcefor Mohaha, , ‘ Mr. Dolbel, according to notice,— ’ “ Asked the Superintendent why a certain number of the Colonial Defence Force were not stationed at Mohaka during the time hostilities were anticipated there, and whether it is the intention of the Government for the future to station a certain number in that district.” In reply to a question put by him last session, the Superintendent said that it was the intention of the Government to erect a barracks at Mohaka,

wherein would be stationed some of the Defence Force; but it had not been fulfilled, notwithstanding that an attack bad been threatened in that distri|£. The Superintendent said, in reply, that the Goverment were aware of the defenceless state of Mohaka, and had assisted the settlers with arms and in erecting a stockade. At the time alluded to by the member for Mohaka the Defence Force were not trained, and could not be detached until they were. The Provincial Government had no control over the Defence Force; but were willing to make a request for some of them to be sent down, if the settlers in that district considered it necessary. Ho did make application to Major Whitmore for that purpose, but his reply was, that he was unwilling to let men go in small detachments, but he (Mr. M’L.) would be willing to renew the application. Dipping Trough at the Spit. Mr. Fitzgerald gave notice of the following motion for to-day, but the motion lapsed. That a dipping trough with the necessary requirements be erected at the Spit for the purpose of dipping all sheep introduced into the Province by. vessel,the cost of such work to be defrayed out of the £4,000 voted in the Loan for Harbor Improvements. Amended Loan Bill. His Honor moved the suspension of the Standing Order 27, in order to bring in an Amended Loan Sill. Agreed to. Bill brought in. On the motion of the Superintendent, Standing Orders 27 and 29 were suspended, and the Bill was read a first time. His Honor said as there was no other business before the House, he would move the suspension of Standing Eule No. 40, in order that the Bill might be read a second time. Mr. Tuke seconded the motion. Mr. Colenso said that according to the'last of the Standing Eules, it was provided they could not be suspended unless eleven members were present. The only course left them, the minority, in order to have the Bill properly considered, seeing that his Honor had sent up the country to whip in a member, was to retire, so that the Standing Eules could not be suspended. Messrs. Colenso, Tiffen, and Edwards then left their seats, Messrs. Boijsfield and Fitzgerald being already absent, which left only ten members present. Mr. Ormond said he did not see any legitimate cause for this delay. Members up the country who had left their business, were prepared, and surely the town members ought to be. He supposed the only object sought by certain members was to keep the country members down another day. Such conduct was not at all creditable, and he thought it gave evidence of an unseenfly and factious opposition. He supposed it would be informal to proceed with the suspension, and that they must defer the second reading till to-morrow, but he thought it very unfair and unreasonable on the part of those members who called themselves the Opposition, and who had retired. The Superintendent having given notice of the second reading of the above-named bill for the following day and Mr. Ormond that he would move that the word eight be substituted for eleven in the rule referred to above, the Council adjourned. THURSDAY, January 21. The Council met at 11 a.m., the Speaker and all the members being present. The minutes were read and confirmed. Breach of Privilege. Mr. Colenso called the attention of the Council to a question of privilege. In the Herald of yesterday he found it stated that on his leaving the Council the preceding day, the member for Porangahau had characterized the conduct of those who left as evidence of an “ unseemly and factious opposition,” and he now asked that member if he made use of those words. Mr. Ormond said he did, and thought they ■were justly deserved. Mr. Colenso, in that case, would call the attention of the Council to May’s Parliamentary Practice, in which was laid down the mode of dealing with a member reflecting upon the conduct of another member. Any reflection on the conduct of a member was a reflection on the Council.itself. He thought the member for Porangahau should be called upon to apologize for the remarks he had made use of. After some discussion, in which Messrs. Tiffen, ■Edwards, Tuke, Ormond, and Ehodes took part, Mr. Ormond made a conditional apology. More Privilege. Mr. Ormond moved, “ That in the opinion of this Council, the seat of Mr. Colenso, member for Napier, has been vacated under the provisions of the Disqualification Act.” Mr. Smith seconded the motion. Mr. Colenso said that the motion was out of order. The Speaker ruled that the motion was out of order, and of no possible use. Fencin g Ordinance. \ Mr. Tiffen, according to notice, moved, “That tliß Groverninent be requested to prepare and get ready, previous to next sitting of the Council, an Amended Fencing Ordinance adapted to this Province.” Mr. Tuke seconded the motion. Agreed-to. Draining Meanee Plate. Mr. Tiffen, in pursuance of notice given, Asked his Honor the Superintendent “ whether it was the intention of the Government to prepare a * Meanee Drainage Act’ previous to next sitting of Council. The Superintendent replied that it was the intention of the Government to prepare such an • Act. . ' ■ Roads Act. Mr. Tiffen, pursuant to notice, moved —

“That the Government be requested to prepare and get ready a ‘ Eoads Act’ previous to next meeting of Council.” Mr. Colenso seconded the motion. Agreed to. Defence of WaipuJcitrau. Mr. Colenso to move, pursuant to notice—- “ That this Couhcil be informed (as far as consistent with military movements) why a portion of the Colonial Defence Force was removed to Te Waipukurau ? And particularly why two stockades have been erected there so near to each other.” The Superintendent said the management of the plan of defence rested with the military authorities, and the expenses borne by the General Government. Impounding Ordinance. Mr. Tiffen, pursuant to notice, moved—- “ That the Superintendent be requested to proclaim the Impounding Ordinance to be in operation over that part of the province lying south of the river Esk.” Mr. Curling seconded the motion. The Superintendent said he had been applied to to proclaim the Act, but he thought it better to be deferred until some amendments could be made with respect to fencing. Correspondence. Mr. Colenso, according" to notice, moved—- “ That so much of the public correspondence between his honor the Superintendent of this province and the General Government (printed in papers A Ho. 2 and B No. 5 of the General Assembly) as relates to Hawke’s Bay and to this Provincial Council, be taken into consideration.” Mr. Tiffen seconded the motion. The motion was put and carried. Mr. Colenso moved that the Council go into Committee to consider the correspondence in question ; but, after some discussion betwen that gentleman and the Superintendent, the matter dropped. Interruption of Members whilst Speaking. Mr. Colenso, moved, pursuant to notice, — “ That, in order that members may clearly know what is called “ Wandering from the subject,” and also to prevent unpleasant interference and unseemly disputation, this Council do resolve itself into a committee of the whole Council, to consider and determine what matter should be held to be so extraneous to a member’s speech as to empower the speaker to interrupt him at pleasure while addressing the Council.” Mr. Bousfield seconded the motion. Motion put, and negatived without division. Alteration of Rule 133. Mr. Ormond, according to notice, moved—- “ That in rule 133, which provided that the standing rules could not be suspended unless eleven members w r ere present, the word eight be substituted for eleven. Mr. Smith seconded the motion. Some discussion ensued respecting the conduct of certain members at the previous day’s sitting, and the motion was offered to be withdrawn, but this was opposed by Mr. Colenso, and on the Council dividing, Messrs. M’Lean, Ormond, Russell, and Smith retired, the remaining members voting again; t the motion. Ayes. —[o.] Noes. —[lo.] Messrs. Colenso Bousfield Tiffen > Dolbel Edwards Kennedy Tuke Curling Fitzgerald Rhodes Loan Amendment Act. The Superintendent moved that the Loan Amendment Act be read a second time. Mr. Smith seconded the motion. A long and tortuous discussion then took place at the end of which the Council divided, and the second reading was carried, as follows : Ayes.—[ll] Noes.—[2] Messrs. Dolbel Messrs. Bousfield Edwards Colenso Fitzgerald Kennedy M’Leau Ormond Rhodes Russell Smith Tiffen Tuke The Council then went into Committee on the Bill. On the Chairman putting the clauses, Mr. Colenso said he would yet offer a few remarks for the consideration of the Committee ; not anticipating the Government would stay or alter its determination, but with the intention of delivering his own conscience and leaving upon record his opinions. The member for Clive had said “ the loan could easily be tied up very stringently by the Provincial Council, so as to be only used for the purposes specified.” This he (Mr. C.) wholly disbelieved. Let it be tied up as it might, yet, if the Government had it within reach, they would be sure to use it. Such had been done repeatedly in all the Provinces, as well as by the General Government. He well recollected Mr. Fitzherbert’s fervid charge, in 1861, in the House of Representatives, against the Stafford - Eichmond Ministry, for their using (in a time of great exigency) the Colonial Sinking Fund, which Mr. F. termed “ their putting their profane hands into the sacred till!” There was, however, this great difference, —the General Government in so acting could easily replace funds so used ; but not so Provinces, especially small ones. He (Mr. C.) felt sure tho Provincial Government would use this borrowed money, if obtained, much as they pleased. The member for Porangahau (Mr. Ormond) had said that “ho had worked hard at Auckland in obtaining the loan on the best conditions for the Province, and that he had also taken the opinion of several fit persons there.” Perhaps he did so. But one thing he (Mr. C.) knew —that Mr. Ormond had never once vouchsafed to speak to him about it, although both there together, the only two members in tho

Jtlouse of Representatives, and seeing each other daily,-—and both also members of this Council! Of course he did not expect Mr. Ormond to seek to have any conversation with him about the Bill itself, knowing that he was wholly opposed to it; but, ho thought, Mr. Ormond might have consulted with him (who had so long held the office of Provincial Treasurer) as to the advantages or not of the financial arrangements. He assured the Committee that he bad heard at Auckland, after Mr. Ormond had left, from a person who knew all, and who was eminently qualified to give an opinion, that the offer made by the Bank of New Zealand was far better for the province than that made by the Union Bank. And he had no hesitation in giving that gentleman’s name to either the Superintendent or to Mr. Ormond. Referring to some of His Honor’s remarks, he (Mr. C.) thought that they had really little to do with the matter before them. The Superintendent had said that “ he might have effected purchases in ’sl and ’52, had money been handy; and 'that the state of the Colony then was as that of the Province now.” But there was this grand difference, that money to a great extent was notoriously handy now in the colony, and that steam brought it to one’s door within ’a few days at most; so that, if the Maories would sell, money for that purpose could easily be obtained. Besides, it was of little use to talk of what could have been done in ’sl and ’s2—of the Maories selling—now rendered more than ever doubtful and distant through the late unrestrained rage for leasing. His Honor had also spoken of “ Canada, and of the Cape, and of other old colonies having done well by borrowing, and therefore he did not see why Hawke's Bay should not do well also.” To this he (Mr. C.) would simply reply,—What possible parallel in age, size, export, and hope-for-the-future was there between Hawke’s Bay and the Cape, or Canada ? His Honor had also assured the Council that “ ho knew this Bill -would meet with the assent of His Excellency.” He (Mr. C.) on the contrary, begged the Committee again to consider, first/ the Colonial Secretary’s letter of 6th July, 1863, respecting this Loan ; second, the Provincial Loan’ Regulation Bill, which, though not actually passed, had received the general support of the" House, and the public assurance from the Ministry, that such would invariably be acted upon by the Government during the recess. Mr. Colenso here read the 4th clause of the said “ Loan Regulation Bill,” viz.:— IV. No such Loan Bill shall bo assented to by the Governor, unless prior thereto Country Land of good average value, to be approved of by the Governor in Council, shall be sot apart for the purpose of repaying the Loan out of the proceeds of such Land, and the quantity of the Land so to be set apart, shall be at least sufficient to cover the amount of the Loan, if sold at the upset price of Country Land within the Province to which the same shall relate. Mr. Colenso also read from the Southern Cross of Dec. 8, Report of Parliamentary Proceedings, the following : In answer to Mr. FitzlXerbert, Mr. FOX said it was no 1 the intention of the Government, at this late period of the session, to proceed with the “ Kegulati on of Provincial Loans Billbut it was the intention of the Government with regard to any Loans that might be proposed between the next meeting of the Assembly, to act on the principle of that Bill. The clauses were then put and carried, Mr. Colenso to the last voting against them. We hero give a copy of the Colonial Secretary respecting the Hawke’s Bay Loan ; so often and so prominently referred to by Mr. Colenso during the sitting of the Council; — Colonial Secretary's Office, Auckland, Gth July, ISC3. Sir, — With reference to my letter No. 131, of May last, I have now the honor to return you the Acts noted' in the margin, with the Governor’s assent duly noted therein. With respect to the Loan Act, I have to remark, that his Excellency has been advised to assent to that Act on the understanding, that the Land referred to in the Resolution of the Provincial Council bo made available by law in the next session of the General Assembly, as collateral security for the Loan; and, thus, in the meantime funds received from all sales of Land within those blocks bo retained in the hands of the Government, and appropriated to the Sinking Fund. 1 have, &c., ALFRED DOMETT. His Honor The Superintendent, Hawke’s Bay. The Chairman of Committees having reported the Loan Bill to the Speaker. Mr. M’Lean rose and said, that the 3rd reading of it would take place on the morrow (Friday). Mr. Colenso said that due notice of motion bad not been given ; and that, since the orders of the day had all been disposed of, it would be needful to obtain leave to suspend the Standing Rules and Orders, to enable Mr. M’Lean to give notice for his motion of the third reading of Loan Bill for the morrow (Friday). Put and carried. * Mr. Rhodes said he also wished to move for the suspension of Standing Rules and Orders, to enable him to give notice of certain motions for the morrow. Mr. Colenso, (somewhat surprised) asked what those motions were. Mr. Rhodes declined to state what they were. Mr. Colenso reminded the Council that it was usual, at least as a matter of courtesy, whenever any member wished the Council to suspend the Standing Rules and Orders to enable him to bring forward a motion, that he also stated the same. Mr. Rhodes still declined to do so. An irregular discussion hereupon took place, in which the Superintendent and Mr. Ormond took part. Mr. Colenso then said, seeing there were but 11 members present including himself, he would not remain to enable them to suspend the Standing Rules and Orders, unless the member for Clive would specify his motion. Mr. C., at the same time, moved towards the door. Mr. Rhodes, (seeing him about to leave), said he would state what his motions were ; the first having refei-ence to the steam dredge; the second respecting a bridge over the Tukituki; the third, (which, he said, perhaps the member for Napier might not agree to,) was for the Council to enquire into on to-morrow, and to decide whether Mr. Colenso was in legal occupation of his seat, and for him (Mr. C.) to give explanation. Mr. Colenso then said he should not remain to enable the Council to suspend the Standing Rules and Orders, unless Mr. Rhodes would agree to defer his motiop of enquiry respecting him, (Mr.

C.) until Saturday; it being now dusk, and him self tired. Mr. Ormond and others said they would not remain in town till Saturday. Mr. M’Lean and Mr. Ormond said that evidently Mr. Colenso was afraidjto meet an investigation. Mr. Rhodes remarked that while Mr. Colenso’s request appeared to be just, yet if Mr. Colenso could give an explanation on Saturday, ho did not see why he could noCequally Jas easy do so on the morrow (Friday). * , Mr. Colenso again demurred, saying it was not so much that he could not give any explanation, or meet any charge, but it was for their sakes, —seeing how very much they were biassed politically against him. That for him to come before them the next day, and to make them both Judge and Jury in this matter between them and him, — seeing too his friends the Country members (Messrs Bousfield, Dolbel, and Titfen,) had all gone home, believing—with him—the work to be all over—would be anything but the act of a sane man. The Council would be all the better for 36 hours of interval. Mr. M’Lean and Mr. Ormond both spoke against any extension of time. Mr. Rhodes again rose to move the suspension of the Standing Rules and Orders, when Mr. Colenso left the Council Chamber, and with him Mr. Edwards. The Council then adjourned.