HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume XXI, Issue 5161, 24 August 1878, Page 2

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Thuesday, August 22— (Continued). After the 10 o'clock adjournment the debate on the Electoral Bill was continued. Mr M'Lean twitted the*Governmenton the way in which their own supporters received their bill. He did not believe it would place any more persons on the roll than there were before. The bill, however, waa acceptable in several respects. The consolidation of the electoral law was a good feature. The female suffrage clause he would oppose in every, possible way. He thought there could not be a more opportune time to bring in a Redistribution of Seats Bill than in the middle of the life of a Parliament, not at the close of its existence, when every member, .as it were, would have to fight for his life. He would reserve further objections till the bill was in committee. Mr Gibbs saw no necessity for a bill which would not extend the suffrage more than was possible under the present laws, but he supported the second reading on the understanding that in committee he would object to a number of its details. Mr Taiaroa objected to the 18th clause, and to women coming into the House, though he had no wish to prevent them voting. Mr Montgomery considered the residence qualification too long a time. It should be made one year. While believing in property qualification, he did not think one who held property all over the country should have a vote in each place. No man should have more than one vote, which should be grounded on citizenship, rather than property. He wanted the Maoris to have representation in proportion to population, as was the case with the Europeans, but they should not be allowed to vote for European members while having the special vote. All representation should be fixed on the basis of population. He considered if this bill became law a dissolution would soon be necessary. He thought the Premier was correct in his estimate that the bill would place 70,000 more electors on the roll than at present. [If it put on only 50,000 how could theyjgo on without ;dissolution? He also thought a bill for the re-distribu-tion of Beats necessary this session. He hoped the bill would render electoral legislation unnecessary for many years to come. Mr Oarrington supported the bill. Mr Pyke hoped the word Maori would • be eliminated from their Acts as soon as possible. It would be better for both races. He could not conceive a greater source of dissension in households than the extension of political privileges to women. He was sorry the Government did not go to the heart of the matter, and say they would give every adult male in the colony . a vote. Altogether, the measure was half-hearted. He considered basing representation on population an outrageous absurdity. Such a system would give London more voters than all Scotland. It was the democracy of the townß who were most to be feared, and by that system of representation the towns would swamp the country. * Mr Stevens considered the bill as a measure of reform. He held that a dual system of voting was necessary for the maintenance of a feeling of sympathy between town and country, because their interests were identical. There was more liberalism in the proposal to extend the hours of voting than was contained in the whole of the bill, because working: men and others would be able to record their votes without neglecting their work and suffering loss thereby, and he begged to thank the Government for it. He objected to the proposed extension of political privileges to women, which was impracticable, and was surrounded with numerous inconveniences. He would not refer to other points at that late hour of the night. He would vote for the second reading, and, hoped when the bill came out of committee it would be. found such a satisfactory measure as would render further electoral reform unnecessary for many years to come. The debate and the House were adjourned at 12.25.

Friday, August 23. The House met at 2.30 p.m. Mr Barff gave notice to move for an enquiry into the working of the Jackson's Bay Settlement. In reply to MrShrimski, Mr Stout said there was no provision for dealing with auctioneers' licenses. Mr Fox asked the Minister of Public Works whether he made the following statement as reported by the shorthand reporters for the local Press present on the occasion : — " There is now a public opinion being engendered throughout New Zealand, which may yet compel Parliament to restore to the people those priviliges of which they have been deprived, and to restore those provincial institutions of which they have been deprived ; not probably exactly as they were, but institutions greatly improved and more adapted to the altered circumstances of the colony," and if it was true that he did use those expressions. Mr Macandrew said that probably he used these words or something like them, but he could not be expected to remember exactly what words he used after such a lapse of time ; but if he used that language it was scarcely to be wondered at in his case, looking back on his past career, but he pointed out that in construing his language the words referred to should be read with what went before and after — in fact the tenor of the whole speech should be considered. Mr Stevens asked whether the Government would bring in a meaaure to provide for the management of charitable institutions. Mr Stout was understood to say that the Government did not so intend, but intended merely to legislate for the disposal of the funds. In reply to Mr Barff, the Government promised a return of the population of the Wellington and Westland districts, together with the number of children attending the schools under the Education Act in each of the above-named districts. Mr Rowo asked whether the Government intended to set aside any lands in tho Upper Thames district for special settlement. Mr Stout said they had now no power to do so, but they intended, to take steps in the matter. Mr Johnston asked the Premier whether at a public meeting at Dunedin, in March

last, he made, as he was reported by the Press to have made, the following statement, or a statement to a similar effect : — "For years they had enjoyed a free and liberal constitution, arid no disasters occurred in consequence, but the development of the resources of the colony and a growth of happiness and contentment had ensued unprecedented in the history of the British Colonies. These institutions were swept away. He asked whether the new ones were such as became free men, and were they likely to conduce to peace and happiness 1" If so, whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce such institutions as in their opinion would become free men. The Premier said he was unable to state from memory whether he used these words at Dunedin, though he knew he used them in many other places, as they correctly expressed his opinions and views, and he had nothing to retract. As to the other part of the question, the introduction of institutions, &c>, he intended to address himself to that as was his duty. The adjourned debate on the Electoral Bill was resumed. Mr Murray opposed, the details of the bill. He thought there should have been an appeal to the people before passing such an Act. Taxation of property without representation he thought little short of robbery. While willing to see women who were ratepayers vote, he was not willing they should enter the House as representatives. He opposed too wide an extension of the franchise, which he feared would, in this colony, lead to more intense democracy than was seen in Victoria and the United States, and to all its attendant evils. What ought to be studied in solving these problems of government, was the creation of a middle class. By doubling the number of electors on the roll it appeared to him was like depriving those men of half their privileges. He thought the Government deserved thanks for introducing so moderate a measure, because even if not altered in committee so much as he anticipated it would be> it was not' likely to be producive of such radical changes as to be dangerous. Mr George's only objection to the bill was that it practically disqualified nearly all the miners who lived in tents and huts. Mr Richardson had always been prepared to go farther than the Government bill in regard to the franchise, and was so still if the Government could see thai way. There were portions of the bill he objected to, but others he approved of, as he did of portions of the bill of the lion, member for Waikato, and he would like tc see the best in both adopted, so that when it came out of committee its own parents would not know it. Mr Bryce asked how it was that when the Opposition were now so loud in asserting that the bill did not go fat enough, they did not bring in such* a bill, or a more extreme measure stillj during the long existence of the continuous Ministry? His own opinion was that the bill went too far, as there was no real desire in the country for the extension. Were it not so the table would be covered with petitions for the extended franchise. Still, as the measure was a good one, he would vote for it, in the same spirit as if he was giving a casting vote which might turn a Government out or put it in. Mr Gibbs approved of the residential qualification, but manhood suffrage was not wanted in his part of tbe country. As to the Maori vote, he was anxious tc see the Maoris individualise their titles, pay their rates, and have the same representation as Europeans. He hoped the time would soon arrive when the special representation of Maoris would be done away with. But, taking the bill as a whole, he could give it his heartiesl support. Mr Fitzroy was surprised at the discrepancy between the bill and the Premier's policy. There was no necessity for the measure. The great difficulty in the electoral question was to get the people to register, and that would be the same with the present bill. He heartily approved keeping of the polls open late, to allow working men to vote after their day's labor. He opposed the special Maori vote, but would give them increased representation. He would support the bill. Nahe thought the Europeans were afraid without reason of the Maori dual vote. No harm could arise from it, and it had the advantage of leading the Maoris to think their interests were watched" over. If, however, fuller representation were granted to the Maoris, he would waive this objection. Mr M'Minn thought the bill went unnecessarily far in regard to the suffrage, and he felt pretty certain the country did not require it. He could say his own district did not want it. He approved of the Maori qualifications. They ought to be encouuaged in every way to place themselves on the roll. He disapproved •of the alteration regarding nominations. -He did not believe the new bill would add many more to the roll, but still he would support the second reading. Mr Rowe would support the bill, though he did not think it went far enough when they recollected the profession, of the Premier for the last two or three years. Manhood sufirage had been his and his party's cry. Well, he was sorry they were not consistent. If no one moved an amendment on the residential clause he would propose that it be reduced to 12 months, as a certain residence was necessary. The Maoris should have no more than one vote. Speaking in this connection the hon. member referred to a certain registration of Maoris at the Bay of Islands, saying that a greater harm or a greater sin had never occurred in connection with an election, and he hoped the like would never occur again. He had no sympathy with the principle that a man: should have one vote and one only. If a man by industry and perseverence acquired property, he should be allowed to vote for it, no matter in what part of the colony. He hoped the bill would he largely amended in committee. . Mr Wood, referring to the remarks aa to the difference between the present bill and the promises of the Premier, asked the members of the late Government whether they had ever been unanimous upon any grant question, or whether they were unanimous even now ? While approving generally of the bill, he hoped some temporary expedient would be adopted so as to remove the great inequilities of representation that existed "at the present time. Mr Murray- Aynsley said he approved of many of the provisions of the bill, especialy that part doing away with the present system of nomination, which was ' not in accordance with the true principles of the ballot. He also hoped numbers would be dispensed with on the ballot papers. As long at that practice was retained people would think they were known. As to closing public-houses during election, there was no occasion for it that had been shown in this colony. He thought the bill ought not to be brought into operation before a Readjustment of Representation Bill was introduced. The debate was interrupted by the hour, 5.30. The House resumed at 7.30. The debate on the Electoral Bill was continued. Dr. Wallis feared that if the amendment of the member for Caversham was carried, electoral reform would be postponed till next year, and probably indefinitely. As to the Maori special franchise, he maintained that if the Maori double vote were allowed, the majority of the constituencies in the North Island would be under the control of the Premier and the Native Minister. The hon. gentleman then proceeded at some length to urge the claims of women to the franchise. Replying to the various reasons urged against the possibility of women being allowed a seat in the House, he remarked that it was said that the proper sphere for women was private life,

jiiMHimw ■ijiiiiijiiiu * but if they shared private life with maty^V why should he not share public life with them? The whole and only objection against doing so was nothing but prejudice, and prejudice that smacked of the middle ages. It was true that women were indifferent and apathetic in exercis,ing the franchise when it was given to ■them, but that .was only the effect of ages of education. The same argument might be used against granting the franchise to men. Mr. Barton supported all the general ' principles of the bill, including the special franchise of Maoris. He was, however, opposed to the female suffrage, on the ground that at the present stage of pro- ' gress of the colony it was inexpedient. ' Regarding keeping open the polls, he suggested they should be opened earlier in the morning as well as later in the evening, so as to suit the convenience of the working man. He strongly opposed putting numbers on the ballot papers so as to identify the voter with the vote. This was an infringement of the true secrecy of the ballot. Sir Robert Douglas said that in this bill the Opposition were all of one mind, and he felt he was the only member who stood in opposition to the bill. Speaking for his constituents, he could say they did not care about such a measure. One fundamental principle on which he objected was because it gave votes to a class ■who, not having been brought up as Englishmen, not haying a veneration for the traditions of the liberties and institutions of England, were not likely to look at public questions as Englishmen would., He also objected to having theYEuropean vote swamped by Maori votes. He would vote against the bill, and would divide the House upon it, but if defeated he would do his best to improve the bill in committee. A division was called by Sir Robert Douglas, the result showing that he stood alone, Mr Turnbull acting as teller in order to enable Sir Robert Douglas to record his vote. The votes were 61 for ; the bill, against it 2. Before the bill was read a second time Mr Shrimski announced that he would . give the bill his hearty support. He felt - that if full rights and liberties were not ' granted to the people, the colony was ' in . very great danger of being afflicted with ; socialistic demonstrations, such as were to\- • be witnessed on the Continent of Europe ; at present. . . i Mr Bees spoke at considerable length, congratulating the House and the Govern-^ ment on the great advance in liberal re- } t form made,.aud of which the bill was an l indication. He hoped this occasion would i be the inauguration of many future great reforms. v i At ten o'clock, Mr Stout was replying to l the arguments against the main principles • • of the bill. -