PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 12, Issue 952, 16 June 1868, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Wed&EIJDAY, JUKE 10. of tliis day. continued ifrom lasfc JBTevAld.2 Stcmdvng Bules and Orders. Mr. Febaed, pursuant to notice, moved — That the Select Committee upon Standing Orders bo re-appointed, to consist of the same members as last aession, and that the Standing Orders recommended by them for tho adoption of the Council be referred to them for further consideration, and tbafc it be an instruction to them to alter proposed rules ll and li, as tending to throw doubt upon the right of this Council to choose its own Speaker; to expunge all orders pin-porting to control the Superintendent in the exercise of his office; to take espeoiat care that ,the : Standing Orders as to summonsing witnesses and preserving order, be in striofc accordance with the "Privileges Act 1856" ; to recommend Standing Orders as to election' 'of a Chairman of Committees, as to the election and duties of a Clerk, and as to the appointment of Standing Committees to superintend the printing and library of the Counoil, and to reoommend orders for the guidance, of such. committees. ; — In the proposed standing orders it was ■ordered that the election of the Speaker should be confirmed by the Superintendent. This was contrary to, the NewProvinces Act, which provided that the election of a Speaker by the Council should be at once , valid-, and effectual. There were powers granted, to the Chairman of Committees, and no provision for his election ; there were also allusions made to the duties of the clerk, and no provision for his appointment. There were many other errors, which the select committee could best rectify. Mr. A'Deane seconded the motion pro forma. He could see how the errors originated. The standing orders had been taken principally from those of the House of Representatives and Provincial Council of Wellington, the committee forgetting that the Province of Hawke's Bay was constituted under a different Act from the old Provinces. He hoped they would not be deprived of the, valuable assistance of the mover of the motion before the house, and would therefore move as an amendment that the name of Mr. Ferard be added to the committee. .. • Mr. Feeaed objected on the ground of want of experience. Mr. Tannee would support the amendment. The member for the town had evidently given the matter very careful consideration. Mr. Oemond suggested that Mr. Feravd's name might be substituted for his own. He would not be able to attend on the committee. Lieut.-Col. Whitmoee , would rather that Mr. Ferard's name should be substituted for his. His other duties would quite forbid his attendance. Major Lambebt proposed that an entirely new committee should' be appointed, As one of the old conimittee he objected to sit altogether. :• • Mr. Wood, as one of the old committee, would wish his name struck off. It would be simply impossible that he could attend. He thought the suggestion of the member for Waipukurau worthy of attention. Mr. Buchanan . thought 1 the old rules and orders had worked very well for several years, and a new code could well be deferred for another session, if there was ever to, be another. He had warned the Council last year that the preparation of new standing rules and orders was no trifling taskl Major Lambebt proposed that the name of the Speaker should be added. He considered the presence of the Speaker in a committee of this nature as of vital importance. The Seeakee said that pressure of business would quite prevent his attendance. He would therefore avail himself of his privilege, and decline. Major Lambeet hoped the Speaker would reconsider his decision. The Speakee said he could not. Major Lambeet would propose the name of a member of the Government, Mr. Eennedy. . ... Mr. Kennedy was very sorry, but he would be quite unable to give proper attention to" the subject. ',"'■' Major Lambert thought the house should insist on the compliance of some members. He should propose as : a committee, Messrs. Ferard", Buchanan, Tanner, and Carlyon. , ;..]'*.' Mr. Buchanan : May I remind the member for Waipukurau that under the present standing rules and orders a motion for a committee must include the 'name of the mover? ■'-..: Major Lambeet : I think I will withdraw the motion. Mr. Tannee moved that the whole question should be referred to the Provincial Solicitor. The pamphlet should be taken as a whole,, and submitted to that gentleman's opinion. Lieut.-Colonel Whitmobe would support the last amendment. He saw nothing in it derogatory to the dignity of the Council. Mr. Buchanan would support the last amendment, as it would give such an excellent instance of the practical working of the new standing rule. He hoped the Provincial Solicitor would find the book very instructive and pleasant reading. Mr. Feeabd hoped the amendment would not pass. It would be utterly unbecoming for them to refer to the Provincial Solicitor the rules by which their proceedings were to bo conducted. That officer would no doubt say, "Conduct yourselves like gentlemen." Mr. Rhodes thought the rules might very well be submitted to the Provincial I Solicitor. They would be quite safe with i him. ! After some further debate of a desultory naturo, the question was postponed un- ! til after the rest of tho business had been disposed of. Loan Appropriation, Mr. Oemond, pursuant to notice, moved — For leave to bring in a bill to amend the M Loan Appropriation Act," Session 8, No. 4, The motion was agreed to ; the Bill was read a first time ; ordered to be printed ; and the second reading ordered for Tuesday. Address to his Excellency. Mr. M'Lean brought up the report of tho committee appointed to prepare^'an address to his Excellency, and moved that it be read. The report was read accordingly, and the motion for its adoption deferred till members should have time to consider it. The Council then (6 p.m.) adjourned for an hour and a half. The Council resumed at 7.30. Some slight alterations were made in the address, on the motion of Mr. Buchanan, and it was adopted by the Council. Post Office and Telegraph Reserve. Mr. Locke, pursuant to notice, moved — That, in the opinion of this Counoil, the Government reserve bounded by Emarson-Btreet, Tennyson-street, and Hastings-street will be v more eligible site for tho General Post Office and Telegraph Station than the site at present intended ; and that the Superintendent be roijuestecl to offer to the General Government a portion thereof in lieu of the land lately conveyed to them. ••-•-: : „,,-- —Ho had presented a petition on this subject, lai'gely signed by the townspeople,

"iaAl had Very little need to supplement it i"''mth ! any remarks. The Government , i;buildings' enclosure was tho only public ' ; squarie' in the towhj, Except Olive square, and tlie idea of adding another building : : td it was not favored by the people . The : ; proposed site' had also many -advantages •* which this had not. , . Mb EaoDES seconded tlie motion. Mr. A'Deane" wduld-Oppo'se the motion . It of dourse" aft>se-from the? petition on the subject /winch had been presented. by that member." He did not. believe that • petition expressed the views of the great body of the electors of Napier. Out of V-279 names on the roll, there were only 70 on the petition. There was, too, a wider question involved than the wishes of the inhabitants, of the town— there was that of public, convenience. In the old country the spirit of_the time was to have the pub,.lic offices as, near to each other as possible. He believed, however, it was now too late to interfetiß wjth the' site, as the tenders had been 1 already sent in. Mr. Shoimsb said that he could not agree , thatitwasthe spirit of the age to have the public buildings all together. He did not know of any single instance where this was : the case. -.< -In Wellington the post office and government buildings were at opposite ends of the town; As for ike facilitation of business, he. did not believe it would . mattermuch/vrhether it.was at the Spit or the, end, of tlie White*road, or anywhere between.: So far as tho plea of eco« : nomy was concerned, the post and telegraph office being built on the site named by the petitioners, would so enhance the value of the remainder of the reserve as.to be a considerable gain to the province. Mr. Tannee would support the motion. .He thought the town residents were the best qualified .to judge in the matter. . Mr. Sijtton, considered that the petition was in a manner a secret one. Many of the electors knew nothing of it. His opinion was that the site proposed by the Government was tlie best in Napier. A great many of the signatures were those of non-residents, and the greater part of the residents signing, it were on the Whiteroad and some eight or ten from the Spit. , .He would oppose the motion. Mr. Fbeabd thought the site fixed upon by , Government would be more convenient . to the merchants at the Spit, whb would principally use it, than the one proposed in the petition ; but as the opinion of the public seemed to be otherwise, he should support the motion. LieutrCol. Whitmoue would oppose the motion,; as the site suggested in the peti- . tion. jwas, the, market reserve, widen he ... thought should be applied to the purpose wmch it was intended. ' Mj. WooDßaid that it was difficult for a town resident to "divest his mind of his private interest in this matter. For his own part he was one of those who would ' have; most \ occasion to use the telegraph ' , and would liie it to be near his; office ; but, apart altogether from this motive, he con- j sidered t&at the site proposed in the peti- j tion was )the true one, as the town was rapidly extending in that direction. Major Lambert could appreciate the ! difficulty felt by town members in divesting their minds of personal interests. It j was quite true that in the old country all ! the public offices were being concentrated at a vast expense, and it was bad to inaugurate the contrary system here. The 1 site proposed by the petition was not the centre of business. The mercantile establishments were all at the Spit, and, until j recently, one of the Banks had been halfway between it and the town. He did not think the public feeling was very strong in . this matter. Twenty out of every fifty Sople would sign almost any petition. c would vote against the motion. Mr. Buchanan said the general gist of the accusations against the petition was that it was a hole-and-corner proceeding. This was hardly consistent with fact. The number of electors signing it, seventy, was a large proportion of a constituency where the largest number who had ever voted was 120. There had been no counter pc- ■■ tition, although plenty of time had been afforded for one, and at present this must be taken as representing the views of the inhabitants of Napier. Me would support the motion Mr. M'Lean : said this question had *■ been raised -rather late, as the land had been surveyed; marked out, and conveyed to; the General Government, and adverisements for contracts issued, for which had already gone in; A deputation, jhpwerer, had afterwards waited upon him, expressing a strong conviction that the site proposed in the petition was the best,'; and he felt there was much in favor, of their argument. He promised to refer ;, the question to the Provincial Council. -_",'-. ;. The; motion was then put and carried on the following' division: — " ; ; . ■ , Ayes,. , 8 ~ Messrs. M'Lean, Rhodes, Locke, Wood, Eerard, Buchanan, Weston, and Tanner. Noes, 6— Messrs. Sutton, Doibel, Whitmbre, A'Peane,. Lambert, and Parsons. ----- Special Constable atHampd&ii. Mr. ■■■. A'Deane, pursuant to notice, .moved — ■i ■ ; That H^B Honor the Superintendent will be pleased to provide in the estimates for some remuneration to the special . constable at Hauipden. ' .-r-By the.advice of the Speakee, this motion was ; deferred till the Council was in committee of supply. : Hcmvpden Boad. ' ,Mr. A'Deane, pursuant to notice, asked-— , .Why a sum of £200, voted by this Counqil for the road to Hampden from Napier haß not been expended in improving that road. —He brought the subject of this road be- . fore the Council last session, and with great difficulty managed to get the sum of £200 placed on the estimates for repairing it. This had certainly not been spent, and the rcjad was now in siich a state that the drayiaen preferred making a ctebowr of some twenty extra miles to travelling on it. Mr. JJl'Lean said that the sum of £40 ;had been spent on the road, which was now, in very tolerable condition. The V whoje sum appropriated would have been ' spent, but for absolute want of funds. •■■-' : Papakura Boad Bates. , Lieut.-Colonel Whitmobe, pursuant to notice, moved— That i thdl'O be laid on the table a return (showing the gross amount received as Papa- ■ kura road rates, and the way in which it has . .been expended, .•- - . Mr. I^E'Lean said that the return would be laid. on. the table. -" 'Standing Rules and Orders. ; , On, this, subject being resumed, Lieut..Cplonel Whitmoee moved the following amendment:— That the Select Comruittee appointed last session to -prepare new standing orelers be re- : apppintefl.u and that Mr. Fevavd's name be added; thereto, and that it be an instruction ;..,•• iOf.'fhetq.;.vtq.' ] xexise -the, proposed standing or'l3e^B v prinj£tid, : by order of fclie Council, and to ; place a djaft standing orders iv the hands of ' the; Superib^deht,. with a request that he , -will besp.gopdas to submit the same to the : Provincial Solicitor, \vith a request that ho •''-■• ■\Yi.lLpbint out any provision which it is beKytinel th^owbftipj^this Council to enact. -•;' , the amend■^'^inefl^^Mbk^w' Agreed" to. ' ''.*-" 'r;-^ponnoiP||entadJ9uxiie'd;

T-krasDAy, Jun£ 11. The Council met at 3 p.m. Present, all tho members except Mr. Carlyon. Petition. Mr. Wood presented a petition from certain Roman Catholic inhabitants of Napier, objecting to the provisions of the proposed Education Bill, and praying the Council not to pass it without mature consideration. iPetitioii read and received.Pa/pcr '&, His Honor the Superintendent laid the following papers on the table : — Return in reference to schoo)s asked for by Major Lambert and Mv, Wood. Papakura Road Kate Keturn Harbour Return Gommittee of Sivpjply. On the motion of Mr. Ormond the Council went into committee of supply. Mr. Obmond made his financial statement. He said that the estimated revenue for the year ending 30th June, 1868, was £36,305, which had not been realized. The actual revenue or rather actual receipts for the year was £25,751, leaving an apparent deficit of £10,554 on last year's estimates. This deficit, however, did not actually exist, for a sum of £5,171 had been received by the receiver of land revenue on account of territorial revenue, which had been impounded by the General Government on account of tho permanent charges against the Province, such as interest pn the .old land purchaso loan, Wellington debt, &c, so that the actual deficiency of revenue as compared with the estimate was £5,453. In a paper which he. would lay on the table would be found a detailed comparative statement of the estimated and actual revenue, the estimated receipt under each item being placed in one column, and the actual amount received in another. From this it would be seen that the deficiency occurred chiefly from the estimated territorial revenue not having been realized. There was an item of £2,714 on account of land purchases against the Province of Auckland, which had not been realized. The Superintendent of that Province fully admitted the liability ; but had been quito unable to find funds to meet it. Again, under the head of miscellaneous, the levies of the toll-bar had only realized £190, in place of £2,000, as estimated. This was in consequence of the delay which, fromunforseencircumstances, had occurred in bringing the " Toil-Bar Act" into operation. The accounts had b3en made up to the end of the last month, with the eurns estimated as outstanding added. He had now shown the deficiency of revenue as compared with the estimate for the year ending June 30th, 1868. He would now have to make a short explanation which would inform the Council as to the estimated position of the bank account on the Ist . July, 1868. Out of the £25,751 which he had mentioned as being the actual receipts for the year, must be deducted £480, which, though due this month, and therefore necessarily appearing under this head in the Provincial Treasurer's books, they did not expect to get, thus reducing the sum to £25,271. To this had to be added £828, the sum that was in the hands of the Provincial Engineer as an advance on, the Ist; July, 1867, making the entire sum that had and would accrue as revenue, £26,099. The statement of expenditure showed the disbursements during the same period to be £28,513, or, in other words, £2,404 more than the receipts. This sum of £2,404, then, represented the estimated overdraft for the year. The statement of expenditure he would lay on the table would fully show the heads under which the various amounts had been expended. Now for the coming year, from the Ist July 1868 to the 30th June, 1869. He would first lay on the table the estimate of revenue for the coming year. The ordinary revenue which the Government expected to receive was £10,430, £8,000 of which would be the provincial share of the consolidated revenue, and the remainder sheep assessments, publicans' licenses, harbor dues, &c. One thing worthy of mention was that the ordinary revenue last year exceeded the estimate, and he believed that this was almost the only province in the colony where this had been the case. The territorialrevenue was estimated at £6,000, tmd the miscellaneous, including rent of toll-bar, Papakura arid Hikutoto rents, &c, £4,648 ; the sum total being £20,973. Of this, £1,500, revenue under the Tollgate Act, had already been appropriated to a particular purpose by that Act, leaving the revenue actually at the disposal of the Council during the ensuing year, £19,473. He would now proceed to the expenditure. In the preparation of the estimates a different form of arrangement had been followed from that adopted hitherto, and members would now more easily ascertain the expense that was incurred for the different branches of the provincial service. In framing these estimates the Government had made every reduction they thought possible, Without' abolishing some of the departments altogether. They thought that, if the existing departments were to be retained at all, they could not be conducted at a less cost than was estimated. All salaries, with one or two exceptions, above £250 per annum had been reduced 20 per cent. ; those below thai sum had not been meddled with. The total estimated expenditure for the year ending June 30, 1869, for all the different services, including the administrative departments; judicial, includingpolice, charitable, miscellaneous, &c. ; and also including the permanent charges, which were estimated for the year -at £6245, was £16,119. To this had to be added the overdraft at the Bank, £2,404, making £18,523, and leaving only £828 available for public works and undertakings during tho year. The sum total of expenditure was thus £19,351 — approaching verj closely to the amount of estimated revenue, which, without the toll bai dues, was estimated at £19,473. He had now concluded the explanation he had to make as to the monetary position of the province and the proposals oi the Government for the ensuing year The Government had endeavoured to reduce tho expenditure to the lowest possible amount, and they believed that nc further reduction could take place unless whole branches of the service were dispensed with. The Government were however, most desirous of meeting th« views of the Council, if they deemed further reduction possible, and invited thcii assistance to that object. He, for hi* part, could not but feel that, when the resources of the province were so reducec that only £838 was available for publi* works and immigration, that the time hac come, when the main objects for the pro motion of which provinces had been esta blished, were placed beyond their powo] to further. For the ensuing year, and possibly, for a year after that,' monej could be found out of the remainder o tho £60,000 to keep open the main line; of road of the province, and to elo a littL towards immigration ; but this was onlj possible if the unexpended portion of th< loan were devoted, as it must be, to thes< objects. He trusted he had made th< statement he. had just completed, am which he had purposely confined to a( brief limits as possible, plain and intelli gible to the Council. He would now ex j plain to them the position of the £60,00(

loan. Referring back to the accounts for I the year ended June 30, 1867, members would recollect that an expenditure out of the loan to the extent of £7,691 had taken place. He now laid Upon the table a L statement of the expenditure under this j head, to the end of the year ending June , 30, 1868, which showed an expenditure , of £24,156 — making the total sum exJ ponded to the termination of the present financial year £"31,847, and leaving unexpended a balance of about £28,150. This balance the Council would be asked to reappropriate by Act during the present . session, and he would not forestall the explanation he would then have to give as , to the object's on which the Government proposed it should be expended. Before sitting down, lie would refer to a subject which was worthy the attention of the Council. Members were aware that, Tinder the present aiTangement of the colo- ! nial revenues, certain charges, known as provincial charges, and which were'appropriated by vote of the House of Bepre- | sentatives", were taken out of the share of ! the consolidated revenues of the colony, nominally given to the provinces. These provincial charges on. account of Hawke's Bay amounted, for the year ending the 1 30 th June, 1868, to the sum of £6,342 10s., and were on account of the following services : — Paymaster's Office £130 Stamps 125 Electoral 50 ' lie vising Officer 75 Supreme Court 135 District Court 150 Resident Magistrates' Courts 1070 Registrar's Office ;JSO Postal Department IG2B Customs ... 1260 : Militia ... 1349 10 ! £0342 10 — His object in bringing this subject before them was to invite, on the part of members, an enquiry into the expenditure under these heads, and he believed he was correct in saying that the present premier • of the Colonial Government had himself ? invited enquiry by the Provincial Councils, into the expenditure on account of provincial charges. . At any rate, whether his recollection on this subject was correct or not, one thing was certain, that the sum abovenamed of £6342 was actually abstractedfrom the share the province gets of the consolidated revenues; and if that sum could be reduced, the share coming to the province would be increased by the amount of such reduction. It was clearly a question of interest to the province, and one on which an expression of opinion from the Council would have, proper weight. He believed he had now touched upon all the questions he had intended, and would move that the committee have leave to sit again on Tuesday next. Mr. Obmond then laid the following papers on the table : — Statement shewing the amonnts realized, estimated, and due to the 30th June, 1868, of the estimated revenue for' the financial yeur 1867-68. Abstract of expenditure from Ist July, 1857, to 31st May, 1868 j also, the probable amount of expenditure to tho 301 h June, 1868, as well as of outstanding and other liabilities to tho same period. Abstract of expenditure from Ist July, 18C7, to 31st May, 1868, under "Loan Appropriation £60,000 ;" also the probable amount of expenditure to the 30th Juno, 1868 a3 well as of outstanding and othoi" liabilities to the suine period. Estimate of Revenue, 1868-69. Estimate of Land Kevenue. Estimate of Expenditure, 18G8-G9. The chairman then reported progress and obtained leave to sit again on Tuesday next. Finance Committee. Mr. Buchanan, pursuant to notice, moved — That the estimates be referred to a Finance Committee, with instructions to report in two days. Such Committee to consist of Messrs. M'Lean, Onuond, Lambert, A'Deane, and the mover. — He thought the course he now proposed was the one which would be most satisfactory to all parties. Mr M'Lean said the Government considered that the most convenient ■ course would be to consider them in committee of the whole house. The question was one in which the whole Council was deeply interested, and he thought the desired end would be best attained by following that course. Mr. Wood considered that it was peculiarly the function of a finance committee to consider such matters as the reduction . or abolition of departments, such as had been referred to in the financial statement. It would be a more pleasant course for members than considering such things in open council, as well as be a great saving , of time. Mr. Obmond could not agree with the i member who had last spoken. He thought ■ this was no time for thinskinnedness, and ■ was fully prepared to take his share of the ■ obloquy which might fall upon the Coun- ' s cil for the action they might take in re- ■ during salaries or abolishing offices. He i liked to work openly, and saw no advan- ; tage to be gained by a small committee, • which, after all, would have to come back ■ to the Council with the result of its l The Council would of course exercise its i privilege of free discussion afterwards. If ; he saw that the motion would do any good ■ he would support it. Otherwise, he con--3 sidcred the committee proposed was as • fair a one as possible ; in fact, he thought ■ the member opposite had taken all pains ' • to have it perfectly impartial. s Mr. Tanner said that the constitution i of the proposed committee showed that j the mover was not actuated by party feelf ing. If the object were to have the busi- ) ness discussed privately, a select comniifcf tee would fail, as the whole matter would > have to be re-opened in Council. This t object could be easily attained by the cxl elusion of tho public during the discusl" sion. i Mr. Fkkakd could not agree with the i idea of private discussion in Council. He ■' thought all its proceedings should be enf tirely public, if it was to have the eonfi- . dence of the public. Members of a select - committee might have motives of private - spite imputed to them ; which would be > quite obviated by public $jscussion. He s did not like to see the salaries of hard- ■ working officers reduced. He would ra- , ther see tho money come out of the pock--3 ets of the public. He would oppose tho - motion. v Lieut.-Col. Wititmore thought that the s public would be dissatisfied if they were i excluded from the debates of the Council, 1 and that it would be better if these mate ters were discussed openly. 1 Mr. Wood wished to explain. The - conclusion that some members had drawn - from his remarks — that he wished to have r. anything secret about the discussion on , the estimates, was not a true: one. Of f course the report of tho committee could f bo discussed to any. extent in the Council s afterwards; but almost all councils hadlatee ly referred, in the first place, the subject of f retrenchment to a select committee.' s Major Lambert- would support the mo--3 tion, as he believed it would bo a great b benefit to the province. There could be 1 no secrecy in the matter, the estimates s were now lying on the table ; they would - be canvassed in committee, and the com- - mittee's report would be discussed in the ) whole house. Now, Ms experience of

years in the Council had shown him the difficulty of making reductions in salaries. It was a singular fact that the moment the subject was mentioned a number of members were unexpectedly called out of the room. Another advantage of the committee would be that the estimates would be more carefully gone through. The Government always hurried them through at such a dreadful rate that tho members had really no time to consider them, and they were in consequence very carelessly gone through. [No, no, from Mr. Ormond.] If there had been anything secret or unmanly in this suggestion he would have had nothing to do with it. There were some people who thought it was unmanly and un-English to rote by ballot. These ideas were great stuff. He thought the composition of the committee could not be challenged. He should be sorry to see the public excluded from the debates of the Council. Mr. Buchanan said that the main objection urged against the motion was that it was in a manner a secret proceeding. Now, however excusable this objection might be in a member unacquainted with the forms of the house, it did not come well from the member for Porangahau. Mr. Ormond: I spoke entirely with reference to the remarks of the member for Te Aute. Mr. Tannee: I would remind the member for Porangahau that I did not speak until after him. (Laughter.) Mr. OnaroND : It was the member for Havelock, then, who suggested that the proceedings should be private. Mr. Wood : I said nothing of the kind. Mr. Ojkmond : I remember a member saying that if this matter was discussed in public certain members' feelings might be hurt. Mr. Buchanan would waive this point, as he could see that there had been a misunderstanding. He would take up the general question of secrecy. A select committee was not necessarily secret, it might open its doors to the public, and this was very frequently done. It might take evidence, and examine officers with reference to their duties. Of course a committee of the whole house could do the same thing ; but the system was so cumbrous that the work was usually left to select committees. He had no desire to shirk the responsibility of difficult questions, for if any member had brought obnoxious questions before the house, it was himself. He had moved for reductions when not one member in the house would listen to him. As for the charge of spite, he was sorry that any member should give xitterance to so low an opinion of the Council. Mr. Ferabd : I said the public might think the committee actuated by private spite. Mr. Buchanan said that the whole proceedings of a committee were noted down, and printed with their report, and that the public had full and free access to. them. He thought that, had such committees been appointed earlier, it might have prevented the Government from lapsing into such a system of extravagance as they had carried on. It was now certainly time, as he had said before, to set their house in order, and to go about financial reform in a more extensive spirit than the Government had done. They had reduced the estimates to the full extent of their power, and had said that they were prepared to take their stand upon them ; but there might be a section in the Council who thought they had not gone far enough. He did not see the force of the plea that tho whole house could do it better, for he had always found two or three work better than a larger number. In the construction of the committee he had not sought advice of any single member — he had put down the names which appeared to him most suitable. He must press his motion to a division. The motion, was carried on the following division : — Ayes, 7 — Messrs Buchanan^ Wood, Woston, Parsons, A'Deane, Dolbel and Lambert. JN"oes, 6 — Messrs M'Lean, Ormond, Rhodes, Kennedy, Whitmore, Ferard. Standing Orders Gomnittec. Lieut.-Col. Whitjiobe, pursuant to notice, moved — That his name bo expunged from Standing Orders Committee, and Mr. Buchanan's substituted. Mr. Fehabd opposed the motion. He objected to placing on tho committee the name of a member who had stated his belief that the old standing rules were sufficient. Mr. Buchanan said the remarks of the last speaker were very true. He thought the present rules were more 1 than sufficient. Ho would join the member for Napier in this matter and do as he did last year, when' he voted against his name being placed on the committee. Lieut.-Col. Whitmobe, then, with the leave of the Council, divided his motion and moved that his nam,e be expunged , from the Standing Orders Committee. Agreed to. Lieut.-Col. WniTMOME moved that Mr. Buchanan's name be added to the Standing Orders Committee. Agreed to on division* Messrs. Buchanan, Weston, and Ferard voting against the motion. Waipawa TelegrajpJi Station. Mr. Tanner, pursuant to notice, moved — For further information from the Government relative to the establishment of a Telegraph Station at Waipawa. — He wished to know whether the practically unanimous resolution of the Council had been sent to the General Government, and, if so, whether any reply had been received ; so that members might form an idea of the manner in which resolutions of Council and public petitions were received by the Government. Mr. A'Deane, in seconding the motion, said that his constituency complained of being out of reach of tho telegraph, through the wishes of the Council not having been complied with. Mr. Obmond said that as it was now five o'clock, the motion would be better adjourned till after the orders of the day had been disposed of. Agreed to. Education Act. Mr. Rhodes, pursuant to notice, moved — • Tho second reading of the Education Act. — Seeing the great diversity of opinion that prevailed on this subject, he thought tho best course would be to refer the matter to a select committee. Mr. Fjohabd opposed the second reading of tho Bill, as lie considered it utterly objectionable in principle. He did not at all approve of the system of the Government levying a general rate, to bo confined in its operation to the district where it was raised, as what would be ample in one district would bo totalty insufficient in another. This Bill would destroy the whole system of education at present existing in this province, and as he considered it radically bad ke would oppose it on principle. Mr. Wood would oppose tho second reading. The necessity for an Act on this snbjpcfc was admitted on nil hands, but it was to bo regretted that the Government had not given the subject more consideration, and produced something less crude than the measure before the Council. In fact the Bill as it stood was utterly un-

workable. Although Napier would be by far the largest payer of rates,this Act did not apply to a single school in it. _ Its provisions wereapplicableonlytodistrictscnools, as shown by the proviso that local boards could enter into possession of all schools, and to no denominational school. Then as to country districts, the fact of each district being expected to supply its own requirements, would, in many sparsely populated districts, be tantamount to shutting up the school altogether., The Act would be inoperative alike in town or country. Then as to the rate, he observed that a uniform rate on houses was contemplated, but he questioned the,, justice of imposing the same tax upon a low valued, as upon a high valued house. He was very desirous to see an Educational Bill passed, but could not assent to the principle of this one. He would however be favorable to referring io a select committee the preparation of another measure. Mr. A'Deane opposed the second reading. He considered that the best course would be to place the matter in the hands of a committee, which, he had no doubt, could frame a thoroughly workable Education Act, one which would be a credit to the province. Mr. Tannee agreed with the member for Hampden. He would move that the Bill be referred to a select committee for revision. Lieut.-Col. Whitmoke opposed the second reading. He believed that an Education Act was necessary, but considered that it was a shameful thing that there were such a number of teachers in the province receiving Government aid, many of whom had only three or four scholars. It was the same all over the country, — the Government paying for sehoolsandschoolmasters with no scholars; their money positively thrown away, till the office of schoolmaster had become a kind of refuge for the destitute. The fault was in the parents not sending their children to school, and lie trusted that, whether they were active or passive in the matter, they would be soon made to pay. He thought the bill before the house would be totally unavailing, and that an entirely new one should be framed. He believed that the rate should be applied to a school for indigent children in some central part of the Province. Parents were usually so indifferent about their children's education that the present system was virtually subsidizing schools lor the benefit of two or three families. He should support a bill. for compulsory education as well as compulsory payment, as he believed that education Avas the general duty of all. Mr. Tanner moved an amendment — That the bill be referred to a select committee next week, for revision and alteration. | Mr. Rhodes, to allow time for due consideration, would move the postponement of the second reading. Major Lambert would second the motion. He had no intention of burking the bill. Mr. Febabd would like the bill withdrawn, as his resolutions had yet to come before the Council. Mr. A'Deane thought the government would consent to the withdrawal. Mr. Tanner moved as an amendment, — That the second reading be made an order of the day for Tuesday next, which was agreed to. On the motion of Mr. Suxton the Council adjourned till half-past 7. The Council resumed at half-past 7. Toll-gate Ad Amendment, Mr. Sutton, pursuant to notice, move — The second reading of the Toll-gate Amendment Act. — He had supported the Toll-gate Act, which imposed a tax of £1500 per annum on tho public, because he considered it a necessity, and in this bill •he simply attempted to do what he had tried to do by means ofau amendment last session. That was, simply to move the position of the gate to the opposite side of Tareha's .Bridge, so as to take in both roads. He believed that a very considerable revenue would be derived from the alteration, as there was a very large traffic along the other direction. Mr. Wood seconded the motion ; but in doing so was not so clear as the member for the town about the additional revenue to be derived from the alteration, for, though there was at present a very large traffic between Clive and Meanee, tho Toll-gate, instead of intercepting it, would divert it by way of Pakowhai. His object in seconding the motion was to draw attention to what he considered the unfair reading by the Government of the 10th clause, which gave anyone a right to compound with the Toll-gate-keeper by an annual .'payment. The Government read this clause as being optional with themselves, which was certainly contraiy i to the spirit of the debates. Mr. M'Lean hoped the member for the town would not press his Bill. The extra money to be derived from the proposed alterations would scarcely pay for the removal of the gate. The Government would see that the reading of the Act should be altered. It arose from an error in the specification of the tender. Licut.-Col. Whitmobe said that twothirds of the people who used the road proposed to be taxed were Papakura settlers, who paid perhaps the highest road rate of any in the Province. When it was considered how slight a benefit was derived by thorn in return for their heavy taxation, it could be seen that it was manifestly unfair to impose any more burdons upon them. He would deem it his duty to oppose the bill in every possible way. After some further remarks, from Mr. Buchanan and the mover, tho motion was lost on a division. Some matters of minor importance occupied the Council for half an hour longer, after which it was adjourned till Friday.