PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 12, Issue 951, 13 June 1868, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Tuesday, June 9. The Council met at 3 p.m . Present, — All the members. Telegraphic Message. His Honor handed to the Speaker a telegram, the first received from Waipukurau. It was read by order of the Speaker, and was as follows : — To His Honor the Superintendent, Council Chamber, Napier. Mr. Eussell offers congratulations to the Superintendent and Provincial Council on the opening of the lino between Napier and Waipukurau. He has no doubt that this will greatly tend to the convenience of business, and to cement those cordial relations between town and country which are so desirable. Henrt Eobert Eussell. Major Lambert considered that it was not right ior the Council to receive communications from private individuals. He wished to know who Mr. .Russell was. He would move " That the Council do not receive the message." Mr. Carlyon would move that the document be thrown behind the fire. Neither motion found a seconder. Privilege. Mr. Caelton referred to a report in one of the papers that he had "ignored the authoritj' of the Speaker." He had never ignored the Speaker's authority ; but only the authority of that book so often quoted — May's Practice of Parliament. The book was no authority here, and the Council edition, being some sixteen years old, was now out of date in England. It was also reported that he was "repeatedly called to order." Now, the public might infer that he had infringed some of the rules, which he had not done. There was a great difference between being called to order and being out of order. Site of Post amd Telegraph Office. Mr. Locke presented a petition signed by one hundred and eighty-nine townspeople, praying that the Council would express an opinion that the proposed Telegraph and Post Office should be built on the reserve fronting Hastings and Emer-son-streets, instead of on the Government Buildings Reserve. After some slight discussion, the petition was read and received. Papers. Mr. M'Lean laid the following papers on the table : — Correspondence relating to the Wellington Debt. Correspondenc . relating to a telegraph station at Waipawa. Bates of Pilotage for the Ports of Napier and Wairoa. Mr. Gill's Report on the Taupo Road. Mr. Ross's Eeport on the Taupo Road. Mr. Weber's Eeport on tho Taupo Road. Returns showing the Lands in the Papakura Block which have been sold and paid for ; also of those portions which have been applied for, but not purchased ; as well as of those which have not been applied for in the same block. Address to His Excellency. Mr. M'Lean moved tho suspension of Standing Orders 26 and 27 to enable, him to bring a motion before the Council without notice. This having been agreed to, he moved — For tho appointment of a select committee to prepare a congratulatory address to hia Excellency the Governor, to be presented on his arrival in Napier. Such committee to consist of the Speaker, Messrs Ferard, Whitmove, A'Deane, and the mover. Report to be brought to-morrow. Agreed to. Telegraph Station at Waipawa. Mr. Tanner, pursuant to notice, moved — For all correspondence relative to the establishment of a telegraph station at Waipawa. — Last session a resolution was passed unanimously by the Council requesting the General Government to fix the telegraph station at Waipawa instead of Waipukurau. This, he believed, was forwarded to the General Government, and was backed by a numerously-signed petition from the country settlers . These recommendations — representing, as they did, the all but unanimous opinion of the Council— had been disregarded by the General Government. If this was the treatment they were to expect if they should ever be handed over to the tender mercies of the General Government, they might well tax themselves to prevent such a contingency. He should be glad of an explanation of this matter. Mr. Carlyon seconded the motion, which was agreed to. The Provincial Solicitorship. Mr. Carlyon asked leave to withdraw the following motion standing in his name : 1 That the Provincial Solicitor's office shall either be abolished, or that the Provincial ( Solicitor shall for the next official yoar be paid by way of feo instead of salary. — He still retained the opinion he had so frequently expressed, that the Provincial Solicitor should have a seat in tho Council. It had been represented to him that great inconvenience would be caused by a system of payment by fees ; and as a motion for which notice had been given by one of the members for Napier would have the effect he desired, he would, with the leave of the Council, withdraw his motion. Leave granted. PapdkuA-a Block. Mr. Sutton, pursuant to notice, moved — That a return be laid on the table of all lands included in the Papakura Block which have been sold and paid for. Alao, those portions which have been applied for, but purohaae not completed ; and any lands which may not have been applied for, shewing tbo rato per acre at which each section was for sale. — A return had been laid on tho table, bufc not so complete as the one asked for. His reason for calling for this return was that a general impression prevailed that the Government had been losers to a considerable extent by the Papakura Block; although ifc was provided in the Papakura and Hikufcoto Leasing Act that the sections should not be sold below their cost price. He observed that about six of the sections had no price marked against them, which left the question still open. Mr. Wood seconded the motion. Mr. Buchanan said that the Government should have published the return in the shape asked for by the Council. His Honor said that the return was as complete as the Government could make it. Some of the sections had not yet been valued. Major Lambert woulcl recommend the member for Napier to ask the Government in diroct terms whether thoy were gainers or losers by the transaction. f The motion was then put and agreed to.

I Major Lambert, pursuant to notice, I moved — That, with as little delay as possible, His Honor the Superintendent will cause to be laid on the table a return of all vessels brought intp the harbour or berthed at the anchorage outside, by the Pilot, from the Ist of December 1867, to the 3lst of May 1808, showing their tonnage and the harbour dues received. — An immense establishment was being . kept up under the firsb Lord of the Admiralty, and his object was to see if there was any occasion for such an establishment — to see, for example, if the duties were sufficient to require both a harbormaster and assistant. Por his own part, he did not think they were. Mr. Ejb_. nedy said that the information would be laid on the table. Pre considered that a good man to assist the harbor-mas-ter was actually required. The whole of the establishment were employed, although, necessarily, more fully at some times than at others. Te Aute School Property. Major L-tMBEBT, pursuant to notice, moved, — - - That His Honor the Superintendent will be pleased to oause to be laid on the table any correspondence that may bave been received from the trustees of the Te Aute school property, that the Council may be in a position to take into consideration any pecuniary assistance that may be expected from that source before the Bill for an Educational tax, about to be brought before tbe Council, is considered. — He must again call the attention of the Council to the Te Aute School Trust. He hoped the Superintendent woulcl take means to ascertain what the G-overnment had a right to expect from that quarter. If the trustees could be set aside for not fulfilling the terms of the trust, it would be an immense gain to the Province, more especially under the circumstances of an educational rate being about to be imposed on the population. Mr. OhjiOjST d would give an explanation of what had been done since last session. The Council then passed a resolution requesting the Superintendent to make inquiries into the matter. The Superintendent, and himself, when in Wellington, wrote to one of the trustees, the Bishop of Wellington, on the subject. Nearly two-thirds (4,000 acres,) of the land, he should say, had been given by the Government for the education of natives and Europeans, while the remainder (3,000 acres) had beon given by the natives, for the education of their own people". The Bishop said that the estate would be in a position next yoar to yield £1,000 per annum, which would be devoted to the education of both races ; but gave no intimation that the trustees had any intention of handing any portion of it over to the Provincial Government. In the House of Eepresentatives last session he (Mr. O.) had raised the whole question of these reserves, and a committee was appointed to inquire into the matter, 'but the information they obtained was very meagre. The I question would, however, ba again gone into next session. The Bishop of Wellington had shown that the Te Aute property had been better managed and more carefully nursed than any other trust. As an instance, he might mention that one of these reserves, comprising about onethird of the Town of Wanganni, estimated to be worth £10,000, was bringing in only £150 per annum, and had still seven years to run at that rato. He might have his own opinion on the proper application of the To Aute trust, but did not think the House of Eepresentatives would be inclined to remove the present trustees, or that the Provincial Government stood any chance of getting the money placed at their disposal. Mr. Buchanan quito agreed with the member for Porangahau that there was very little prospect of the Government getting any of the proceeds. The only way by which the trustees could be reached was through the Supreme Court, and, then, the result would be very doubtful. Major Lami.ebt considered that the matter was one of great moment. By bringing pressure to bear they might get something, which would be better than none at all, as at present. Agreed to. Toll-gate Act Amendment Bill. Mr. Sutton, pursuant to notice, moved — For leave to bring in a bill to amend the j " Toll-gate Act 1867," — Last session he had opposed the present situation of the Toll-gate. He considered the only fair position was at the junction of Tareha's Bridge with the main road, so as to take in both directions. Mr. Wood seconded the motion. He did _ so, he said, in order to open up the subject, _ with the view of other emendations being effected. The bill was brought in, read a first time, ordered to be printed, and the second reading made an order of the day for Thursday. Vohmteer Land Act. On the motion of Mr. Buchanan, the Volunteers aud Militia Eemission Certificate Act was read a third time and passed. The Council then adjourned. Wednesday, Junk 10. The Speaker took the chair at 3 o'clock. Present — All the members except Mr. Cai-lyon. Telegraphic Message from Mr. Bttssell. In the absence of Mr. Carlyon, the following motion lapsed— That the telegraph message, ordered by the Speaker to he read this day, be not entered on the Minutes of the Council. LooAi Appropriation. Mr. Buchanan, pursuant to notice, moved — For a return of tho suras expended since the passing of the Loan Appropriation Act, Session 8 No. i, for the several purposes therein set forth, stating the amounts charged respectively to annual votes of Council and to the appropriations made by the said Act ; the outstanding charges or liabilities (if any), and the totals in each case. — He thought it desirable that the Council should have this return before proceeding with the consideration of the Loan Appropriation Amendment Bill, or of the estimates. | Mr. M'Lean, in seconding the motion, said that the Government had no objection , to laying this information before the Council. Agreed to. Educational Statistics. Mr. Wood, pursuant to notice, moved — ■ That His Honor the Superintendent be requested to lay on the table a return, showing 1. A list of educnlional endowments within the provinco, and tho annual rental derivable from each. 2. A list of schools within the province, shewing in what proposed educational district they are situate, und what aid each has received from Government during tho financial year aboufc to end. 8. An estimate of the number of rateable householder*, within each proposed educational district, and the estimated amount to be derived iv each such district from the collection of rates. 4. And, generally, such other statistical information as may serve to guide members in considering the Education Bill now before the Council. I — The object of the motion waa so obvious , that he considered that no time need be 1 taken up by explanation. 1 Agreed to.

Allowance to Coymtrry Members. Mr. Buchanan, pm*suant to notico, moved — That the number of days for which eouutry members shall be entitled to draw the customary allowance for attendance during tiie present sittings, shall not exceed lifteen ; or, in the event of His Excellency the Governor', arrival delaying the Council business, eighteen, — In these clays of economy, when reductions were being made in the salaries ol Government officers, aud necessary public works had to be suspended for want ol means, he thought it would be only proper for the Council to set their own house in order — to bring their reductions nearer home by restricting the honorevrmm they had hitherto received, and thus showing that their desire for economy was real and disinterested . He thoughtthe proposition was perfectly fair aud reasonable. The motion not being seconded, the Council passed on the consideration of the next notice. Pro vincial Institutions. Mr. Buchanan, pursuant to notice, asked — Whether the Superintendent has bad in his consideration the question so prominently engaging the public mind in Now Zealand, as to the desirability of continuing the provincial system ; and if he intends taking the opinion of this Counoil on the subjeot during the present session. — -This question had engaged the attention of the public all over the colony ; and no doubt had been well considered by his Honor the Superintendent. As it was peculiarly a Government question, it was the duty of the Government to bring it under the notice of the Council. His Honor said that the public mind was at present much engaged with this question ; and, as far as the Government were concerned, they would be happy to invite an expression of the opinion of the Council on ' the subject. He should like that opinion to be in such a form that he ancl his colleague might bring it under the notice of the General Government in the House of .Representatives. Educational Reserves. Major Lambert, pursuant to notice, moveel — Tbat his Honor the Superintendent will cause to be laid on the table a return of all the lands in the Province set aside for educational purposes, shewing ths acreage, where situated, and the rental, if any, derived from such lands, with the name of the tenants. — His object was to elicit information which might assist members in considering the proposed Education Act. The member for Havelock had almost taken the wind out of his sails ; but no harm would be done by laying the return on the tabic. Agreed to. Forfeited &rmts of Land. Major Lambert, pursuant to notice, moved — That his Honor the Superintendent will cause to bo laid on the table, with as little delay as possible, a return shewing the names of persons, and the quantity of land forfeited by each of them, for non-compliance with the 78th clause of the '* Auckland Wasto Lands Act." — The province, some years ago, adopted a very liberal system of land grants to officers and privates discharged from her Majesty's service, provided the dischai-ge was without disgrace. It was considered that these men would be valuable for the protection of the outlying districts against the natives. Several of these mon had, by non-compliance with the provisions of the grant, forfeited their land, which would of course l-evert to the Provincial Government. He should estimate that the province would by this means gain land to the value of £1,000 or £1,400, which would be a valuable acquisition in these times of depression. Mr. Parsons seconded the motion, which was assented to. New Standing Orders. Mr. Ferard, pursuant to notice, moved — Immediately after a bill has been reported to the Council by the Chairman of Committees, the Speaker shall forward a copy of the bill to the Superintendent, with an intimation of tbe day on which it is ordered to be read a third time, and a request that he will obtain, for the information of the Council, the opinion of the Provincial Solicitor on the fol> lowing matters : — lst. "Whether the bill contains any provisions which are beyond the powers of the Provincial Council to enact. 2nd. Whether the provisions of the bill appear sufficient to carry out effectively the intentions of the Council ; and upon any matters of detail .connected with the bill, upon which the Provincial Solioitor may think it advisable to offer an opinion. Immediately after the order of the day for the third reading of a bill has been read, the Speaker shall read to the house any opinion of the Provincial Solicitor which may have been forwarded to him by the Superintendent, ! in reply to tho request made in pursuance of the preceding order. — lt was well known that Bills, overwliich. much time and trouble had been spent by the Council, had been disallowed by the Attorney-General, because thoy were contrary ,to the provisions of the Constitution or some other Act, and it often happened that private members who wished to introduce a Bill were not competent to draw out the details. It would be very unreasonable to expect the Provincial Solicitor to draw a Bill entirely for a private member, because it would bo impossible to satisfy him without some definite idea of 1 what he wanted ; but when a Bill had passed its secondreading,andhadbeensub- ! jectedto the alterations made in committee, lie thought then was the time that it should be subjected to the supervision of a professional man, to ascertain if there were any instances in which the power of the Council was exceeded, or any other errors committed of a technical character. It might be objected that it was at present the duty of tlio Provincial Solicitor, as the legal adviser of the Superintendent, to do this ; but he could not agree that it was. It had nofc been done here hitherto, and it was not done in any other Province of .New Zealand, Mr. Tanner doubted whether the proposed supervision would ensure that the provincial bills should not bo disallowed. It was always assumed that provincial bills were drawn by the Provincial Solicitor. Mr. M'Lean said that tho Provincial Solicitor was not particularly to blame for the disallowance of provincial bills. It frequently happened indeed that bills exactly similar to those which had beon allowed by ono Attorney- General woulcl be disallowed by the next. Since tho gentleman at present in that position had taken office, tho number of disallowances had greatly increased. Lieut.-Col. Whitmore said that at present they could not expect the Provincial Solicitor to attend to the bills of private members. He thought that, although this was a step iv the right direction, they should remember that it was a new ancl oxtra duty. £No, no.] It was acknowledged to be a new duty, and ought to weigh with the Council wlion they came to the consideration of the estimates. Ho thought no blame attached to tho Provincial Solicitor for the disallowance of bills, for pi-ofossional men always differed — doctors proverbially — and if one lawyer could possibly find a flaw in another's work he would do so. The object of the motion was evidently to pre ve-it the Council committing any very illegal act. They 1 would still have tho responsibility, and

j would not be bound to abide by the opi- , ! nion of the Provincial Solicitor. i Mr. Kennedy said that if it was the ' opinion of the Provincial Solicitor that • any proposed measure exceeded the powers - of the Council, it could be re-committed. ; On this ground he would support the ' motion. Major Lambert said that the Provincial • Solicitor was paid a salary for his services -" as legal adviser to the Government, and it \ surely would nofc be asking him too tfmch to look over the provincial Bills. He thought the Council shoukl be bound to ■• take that gentleman's opinion, ancl that he should be responsible for the correctness of the Bills. As he did not think the " proposed duties were more than they had - a right to expect the Provincial Solicitor i to perform, he should support the motion. Mr. A'Deane considered that, if this resolution were passed, it would supply a want which had been greatly felt in the Council hitherto. They would all agree that they had often passed unintelligible and unworkable Bills. (Hear, hear.) This might prevent it in future, and he would i give the motion his entire support. Mr, Ormond said that the second pro--1 viso, that the solicitor should see whether the bill would carry out the wishes of the Council, went too far, beyond the power of that gentleman altogether. (Hear, hear.) He could not be expected to understand, what the exact intentions of the Council were, except so far as shown in the bill before him. He would propose as an amendment that the words "as shown in the title and preamble of the bill," be inserted after the words "intentions of the Council." This would give the Provincial Solicitor something tangible to work upon, instead of the mere intention of the Council, of which that officer could not be expected to know anything. Mr. Buchanan objected to this means of eliciting the opinion of the Provincial Solicitor. The most prompt and speedy way of doing this was by the course he proposed last session — giving that gentleman a seat in the house. He would then know what wero the intentions of the Council, and could give his opinion on the spot. They would never be able to get at his opinion satisfactorily ih any other way. This course was adopted in every other Province of .New Zealand. He must object to the Council deputing its functions to a salaried officer, and thought it was lowering the status of the Council to submit their actions for approval to any person outside its walls. It was tantamount to saying that he was better qualified to legislate than themselves. If this was the case they should place the legislation of the province in his hands, and, as he had the power, give him the responsibility. It was only in exceptional cases that Bills were brought in by private members, and it was the duty of the Provincial Solicitor to draw all G-overnment Bills. _ This standing order had been spoken of asifit would check the disallowance of provincial Bills ; but he observed that as many public as private Bills had been disallowed by the General Government. It had been truly said that it depended upon the Attorney-General ; what one approved of _ another would condemn. Of course this was tho case — the decisions of the Attorney-General would always bear the color of the party to w'hieh he might belong. jNo one could expect the Provincial Solicitor to be infallible. The last Appropriation Act passed by the Council was inconsistent with an Act of the General 1 Assembly. He would read an extract from the letter of the Colonial Secretary, giving the reason for the disallowance of two Acts passed last session : — The Appropriation Bill is open to the objections pointed out in my circular of the 9th of July last. The second section is inconsistent with the " Provincial Audit Act, 1866," whioh requires tliat no money shall be paid out of Provincial revenue on any warrant of the Superintendent except it be certified by* the Provincial Auditor. Section 3 affects to indemnify tbe Superintendent for certain illegal expenditure. This indemnification oannot be effected by such means. . . With respect to the "Sheep and Scab Amendment Act, 1507," I observe that section 4 does not limit the amount of peualty to £100. If more than one hundred sheep were driven in contravention of that section, the lines would be more than £100, and consequently tbe power given to the Provincial Council by the " Provincial Council Powers Act, 1856" would be exceeded. — The Appropriation Act was the final effort of the Council, aud, from the thought and care supposed to be spent over it, should be a perfect model of propriety. The other error was iv the Sheep and Scab Ast, and was one for which the Provincial Solicitor was no more to blame thau the Council, for it was one which any member round the table might have seen. JNo doubt the Provincial Solicitor could give a correct opinion if a clear issue or Eoint of law were submitted to him • but c could not give satisfaction in the manner proposed in the resolution before the house. It was certainly a new idea to employ an officer outside the Council to revise its acts. In England, in the case of important measures draftsmen were employed at enormous salaries to draw and inspect the acts ; but he never had heard of an act being submitted to tliem after the second reading. The prizes -for the drafting of the Common Law Procedure Act were a Judgeship and £"3,000. In the case of Government bills, the Provincial Solicitor had to do this work already, and to refer it to him again seemed a work of supererogation. Mr. Tanner could not agree that ifc was undignified to refer an Act, which had passed through Committee, to the Provincial Solicitor, though that gentleman had nofc a seat in the Council. The Council would not be bound to adopt his suggestions. He should support the amendment of the member for Porangahau, for the original motion was not sufficiently definite, and if the Provincial Solicitor was inclined to be crotchety, he might asy, " How am I to know the intentions of the Council ?" Mr. Ferard had no objection to the amendment of the member for Porangahau. Lieut.-Col. Whitmore did not think tho Council should be at all bound by the opinion of the Provincial Solicitor; if it differed from the opinion of the Council they need not necessarily accept ifc. Major Lambert said that of course the Council would not bo bound to follow the advice of the Provincial Solicitor. He should not object to the Solicitor having a seat in Council ; but should hardly like the idea of two or three lawj'crs there. Under the resolution, the dnty of the Solicitor would simply be to look for technical mistakes. He should support the motion iv its original form. Tlio amendment was then put, and carried 071 the following division : — Ayes, 13 —Messrs. M'Lean, Ormond, Kennedy, .Rhodes, Ferard, Sutton, Locke, Wood, Tanner, Buchanan, Weston, Parsons, Dolbel. Noes, 2 — Messrs. Lambert and Whitmore. Tlio original motiou, as amended, was then affirmed. Mr. Hhodes asked if the second paragraph, commencing " Immediately after tho order of the day," had been carried also. He had not heard it read by the Speaker. The Speaker said that ho had read that paragraph, and that it had been carried on the division. Mr. Rhodes said it was not of much consequence, as the clause was wholly unworkable, and .could never be acted upon.