PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 12, Issue 882, 8 October 1867, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

FBIDAY, OCTOBER 5. The speaker took the chair afc 3 . o'clock. Present, all the members. Tho minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Telegraphic Station Inland, Mr. t Caelyon, pursuant to notice, moved,-— That this Council present a petition to the Colonial Secretary in favour, of an electric telegraph station being looated at Waipawa in preference to Waipukurau. — He said that this, was a matter which ought have been attended to by the representative of the district in the General Assembly. He did not know that member's opinion on this motion; very possibly lie might be opposed to it. A memorial to the Colonial Secretary would, he thought, be the best way of settling the matter ; but he would leave it in the hands of the Government, to deal with as they thought proper. Mr. Weston seconded the motion. Mr. Osmond said there were good, arguments on both sides. At Waipukurau they had to cross two rivers to communicate with town, and at times, from freshes, could not communicate at all; while, at Waipawa, they had the advantage of numbers to back their claim. When he was in Wellington the question was mooted of a telegraph station at one of the two places — he was not sure which of them — and the Postmaster-General wanted the Superintendent and himself to place £120 on the estimates for the expense of the same, seeing , it., would not W self supporting. They did not. agree to this ; they ascertained that it would be three months before the telegraphic wires could be at work, and they considered there would be time for the people of the districts to express an opinion on the matter. He had been informed by the Postmaster-General that it was necessary to have a telegraph station ' at one of the two places, as an intermediate station between Napier and Castle Point. He had intended to ascertain the feelings of his constituents on the matter. Major Lambbet said he was bound, as a member for Waipukurau, to say a few words on this question. There was no doubt that, Waipawa was the centre of the population of the district, and would in time be a much larger place than it was now. On the other hand, Waipukurau was the centre of a large country, on the other side of two rivers ; and with frequently no communication with Waipawa. He. had himself on one occasion been shut up for three days in Waipukurau before he could cross the rivers ; some persons on that occasion had to swim their horses ; he did not, but very nearly. Persons residing •on the. other side of the Tuki Tuki wishing to communicate with Napier would easily he able to do so if the station was fixed at Waipukurau, but, if at Waipawa, they would be cut off, Waipawa was always able to communicate with the town. Having made these remarks as a member for Waipukurau, he would say he was utterly averse to any job being perpetrated for any j particular district ; he always sought to work for the interests of the whole province, and he was certain any one who sought to do a job for the benefit of a district would afterwards regret it, and meet . very little gratitude from those he had served (Hear, hear.) , Colonel Whitmobb said he had heard the Postmaster-General speak of the necessity of a. telegraphic station at one of the jplaces, he did not know which, estimating the cost at £150 a year. Of course if the inhabitants of each place liked to subscribe this amount they could have a station; the General Government would allow as many stations as money was found for. All they required was that such stations should be self-supporting. MajorLAMßEETunderstood Mr. Ormond to say the Province had to pay. Mr. Oemond : The Postmaster-General had not said who was to pay. Mr. Weston said the amount would be charged against the province by the General Government, which would not be at the expense of erecting stations in small localities. .They would no doubt grant the money and deduct it afterwards. It gave local control to the General Government. He objected to it altogether. Major Lambeet inquired who was to pay*— private subscribers or the' General Government. • Mr. Oemond said there would be a station at one place, the distance between Castle Point and Napier rendering an intermediate one necessary. He expected the Provincial Government would have to pay an amount towards it, and they would propose giving £50 towards the expense of the station, wherever it was. Mr. Caelyon said Mr. Ormond's future opinions would depend on the pressure put on him by his constituents ; but it would then be too. late for the Council to consider the matter. He was not surprised at finding so few members taking part in the debate, as it was a purely local matter. ■ The motion was put and carried on the voices. Major Lambeet demanded a division, • when the numbers were as follow : — Aybb— 14. Noes— l. Messrs. Ormond, Major Lambert. Rhodes • ■ Kennedy. Dolbel. Buchanan, Tiffen,: Tanner, Carlyon, Sutton, Weston, Irvine, Parsons, Locke, Whitmore. Some amusement was created during this division by Mr. Weston objecting to a member leaving the room after a division had been called, it being discovered after the protest was made that the member (Col. Whitmore) had been behind the. door. -i ■• . ■> ■ Want of Confidence. Mr. Buchanan, pursuant to notice, moved the following : — 1. That the open and unequivocal avowal of hostility to provincial institutions uttered' within the Chamber by the member for Porangahau, and tacitly assented to by the members for Clive and Napier, is held to be adverse to the true interests of this province, arid, in consequence, deprives those gentlemen of that free and full confidence as members of the Executive which they have hitherto enjoyed. 2. That the Speaker forward a copy of this resolution to his Honor the Superintendent immediately he returns from Wellington. He said the hon. member for Porangahau (Mr. Ormond) would have no difficulty in interpreting the drift of this .resolution. He was glad the Superintendent was absent on this o.ccasion, and that he could, not by any word-torture be included in the censure — he would not say censure, but expression of opinion — which he meant to move on the three gentlemen who formed the Executive. His Honor the Superintendent at least was free ; and his personal following — and no doubt he had a following— might divest themselves of the idea that anything he had done ,: would be brought into question. He (MrBuchanan) would confine himself to acts '.'■: the three gentlemen before him had done. He. h^d heard the member for Porangahau . (Jitry Orpiond) let fall .expressions in that : wstitutions which ;. we^e n O cioubt the result of hjs convic-;

i , T tions ; and which he did not dispute his right to entertain, any more that he himself had a right to entertain opposite views —if lie did entertain them— but such denunciations of provincialism should not como from an administrator of a Provin* cial CJdverament. It was not decent for the hon. member to stand at the head of the Government and talk of gross mismanagement and extravagance. When they considered the share the hon. member for Porangahau had for the last five years taken in Provincial matters, it ill became him to talk of gross mismanagement and extravagance. (Hear.) He was more responsible for it than any other man in the province. Mr. Ormonb : (Hear.) Mr. Buchanan : The hon. member says "hear." I suppose he assents to my view. Mr. Oemond : I assent to my responsibility to a certain extent" for the province of Hawke's Bay during the last five years. Mr. Buchanan : while the hon. member continues to sit at the head of the government bench that mismanagement and extravagance would continue ; and while that member was an adviserof HisHonor,it was absolutely wrong to give public expression — he would jjjuard Tumself by saying public expression— to his peculiar views upon provincialism. If the province was handed over, as the hon. member spoke of, to the General Government, they would have to go cringing and crawling to that Government. He put it distinctly ; he cared not whether the resolution was carried or not ; in either case he meant to follow it up by some other set of resolutions. It was time to understand distinctly whether they were to hold to the present form. of Government, or to abandon it. If the latter case, the administration would be in the hands of the General Government, and what would be the result ? Why, they were not so economical even as the extravagant Hawke's Bay Provincial Council (Hear, hear.) He was indebted to the hon. member (Mr. Ormond) for a copy of the General Government estimentes for the present year, and he found set down for Hawke's Bay a sum equal to 50s per head for every man woman and child in the province. He also found that although they had escaped war since 1863— and he believed they were never in imminent dread of war since that year — he found a sum of £400 set down for an hon. gentleman who sat in that chamber, being his salary as military commandant. Commandant of what? The military strength of the province consisted chiefly indeed of the 50 or 60 men of whom he (Mr. Buchanan) was captain, who met once a month to drill. Yet it cost the province over £1000 per annum to keep up this gallant and magnificent army of Hawke's Bay. The member for Porangahau, in all his extravagance, had never been so bad as that (Laughter.) He believed the item had been disallowed, or was likely to be disallowed ; but these things would shew" what they had to expect if they were handed over to the tender mercies of the General Government. This was no single illustration. Their extravagance was like Aaron's rod, always blossoming, always growing. Bad as the present state of things was, they would not profit by the change which the member for Porangahau seemed so anxious to bring about. ' " Tis better to endui'e the ills we have Than rush to others that we know not of." The member for Porangahau had told them the time was coming when this Province would be divided into three districts or Boards under the General Government. But how would those Boards be formed. They had great difficulty infilling that chamber ; how much more to find men for three. The proposed system would be found too to be a great deal more expensive, at any rate certainly no cheaper. The elements of discord had been introduced into New Zealand— each province was being divided against itself, and it was sought to perpetuate that discord. Of course, if gentlemen thought the member for Porangahau right, they would vote with him, and affirm in umnistakeable terms that they considered he had a right to denounce provincialism as he had done. For his own part, he could not think it proper that the provincial expenditure should be entrusted to gentlemen holding such opinions as the member for Porangahau ; they would be the means of carrying into effect their own prophetic warning. Mr. Tanner was about to speak, when — Colonel Whitmoee rose to offer an exlanation. He had been personally alluded to in a pointed manner by the hon. member (Mr. Buchanan) and he would explain to the House the whole facts of the case. If Mr. M'Lean were there he would corroborate what he was about to 'say on this subject. He (Colonel Whitmore) had served the General Government in the capacity of military commandant for the space of a year and a half without any reward ; during which time he had received several letters from Wellington, urging him to allow himself to be placed on pay, but he had declined repeatedly, one reason being that he might hold himself free from such remarks as those just made by the hon. member (Mr. Buchanan.) ite had also another reason for not accepting remuneration. If he had been a paid government officer, he might have had to act for the Government in opposition to the views of the Superintendent ; he had therefore declined to accept it. Colonel Haultain had pressed him to take it, but he replied that, while he would do as much as if he were paid, he thought Colonel Haultain ought to be obliged to him for refusing to accept. Colonel Haultain said it was the wish of the Ministry and himself that he should be paid, that they might ask him to do other duties, and Mr. McLean had joined in urging him to accept. He had then yielded to this pressure, and said, very well; he would agree to accept it. He believed the salary had been done away with since. Of one thing he could assure them, that it was the smallest salary paid to a man of his rank in any of the New Zealand provinces. In the Waikato and Tauranga the officers holding the same position got £500 or £600. The officers of the staff have had less assistance than in any other province ; there was not enough to keep the arms in order ; which involved a great deal of work if properly done. With regard to the motion itself, he regarded it as most inconsistent. The hon. member (Mr. Buchanan) disapproved of the conduct of the Government in not assuming responsibility, and then in the same breath levelled an attack upon them, as if they were. It was evident that if any person was responsible it was the gentleman the hon. member had taken such pains to exempt from his charge, namely the Superintendent. Could they express their confidence in him and at the same time object to his right of receiving advice from men he had chosen himself. (Hear, hear.) He thought the resolution an outrageous one. . Anything that had fallen from the hon. member for Porangahau did not afford ground for bringing forward such resolutions. He had himself grievances against the Government ; enough had not been done in some districts, and so on ; but he should not have dreamt of making such a charge as thehon. member had done. Why, who were the men who suffered from provincialism. The holders of property. (Hear, hear.) It had been mathematically proved in

the General Assembly that £350,000 was necessary in taxation to keep up provincial institutions. The taxation would fall upon property, the owners of which would then have some say in the matter* Indirect taxation would be changed to direct taxation. The recent disclosures — he could call them nothing else— made during the last session of the General Assembly, would enable them to form a proper opinion on the matter. The class of which they had all heard so much— the working man— (hear, hear) was beginning to find the change would be for his benefit ; and therefore was for doing away with provincial institutions and becoming a staunch centralist. The lion, member for Porangahau's expressed opi-. nions on this matter would not shake his, (Col. Whitmore's) confidence in the advice that gentleman might tender to His Honor the Superintendent. He thought it would have been more politic if he (Mr. Ormond) had not treated them to so strong an opinion on the coming decease of the province. (Hear, hear). He was not so very sure that the demise of Hawke's Bay as a province was to occur so soon as had been prophesied. (Hear, hear). From all he could ascertain, he believed it would last as long as any other in New Zealand ; for some others must come to an end shortly from inability to pay their obligations. If they were turned over to the General Government, they need not be afraid of the " tender mercies " talked about. A nominated Superintendent, receiver, or agent would probably be appointed, who would economically conduct the business of the province under the direction of the General Government ; combining a great many offices now held by what he might term " quasi " provincial officers, such as Eeceivers of Land Revenues, Treasurers, and Commissioners of Crown Lands. As to " cringing ( and crawling," they would have to do neither one nor the other. The people of the district would themselves constitute their Boards ; settle how much work was to be done, and now much money was to be paid for it. There was such a thing as a place being too small for a Government. (Hear, hear). It was sometimes better for the Government to be at a distance from the place governed. Public feeling in the locality might give to thewrongcauseanadvantage it would not have in the General Assembly. He would sooner have his wrongs redressed by an impartial jury ofthecolony. He believed when Auckland died as a province, which from her pecuniary state must very soon occur, it would be found that although not available under her Provincial Government, she still would possess a large surplus, and the same was the condition of this province, in his opinion, so far as regarded the surplus. In conclusion, he must say he thought it not quite fair of the hon. member (Mr. Buchanan) to put such a contemptuous expression of opinion on the notice paper without better grounds. Mr. Tanner said although he seconded the motion, he would not say that he was prepared to support it ; that would depend upon the reply of the hon. member for Porangahau (Mr. Ormond). He was sorry to see a sneering manner in that gentleman when speaking of provincial institutions. Whatever that hon. member's private opinions might be, public expressions such as lie had used did not come with good grace from one who had voluntarily accepted and retained a prominent place in a Provincial Government (Hear, hear.) He had heard charges made against the hon. member outside which he did not care for repeating, and which he would only bring forward to give him an opportunity of refuting. It was said that the hon. member, having got all he could out of provincial institutions, would not be sorry at their decease, and would help to upset them when he got a chance. He should be sorry to commit himself to such an opinion ; he only mentioned it that the hon. member might know all that was said upon this subject. From his (Mr. Ormond's) public position he must not be surprised at having aroused such a feeling. Coming from a private member, the denunciations of provincialism they had listened to might not have excited much attention; but when the opinion was enunciated by a member of the Government it was to be expected public notice would be drawn to it. He had not the idaßt doubt the hon. member would be able to remove such an impression without the least difficulty. (Hear, hear.) If so, he hoped the member for Napier country (Mr. Buchanan) would not press the motion. (Heai*, hear.) The member for the Wairoa had accused the hon. member (Mr. Buchanan) of inconsistency, and had at the same time been guilty of the same thing. . The Executive had stated that they were now in a responsible position, to the fullest extent, as representatives of the Superintendent. The member for Porangahau and colleagues last sitting, when something like a vote of want of confidence was proposed, had threatened to tender their resignations to the Superintendent. If this motion was put and carried, therefore, they were bound out of self-respect to resign, if, to use their own words — they had " hearts as big as mice." That would be the eiFect of the resolution if carried. Mr. Oemond said before replying he would say a word or two as to the motion. Whatever blame attached to it, he alone was responsible. To say that the two members (Messrs. Rhodes and Kennedy) who sat beside him were deserving of censure because they had not expressed dissent from his statements was a monstrous proposition. He was not to be debarred from expressing his opinions as a member of that House because he happened to occupy a seat on the Government bench. (Hear, hear.) One thing had astonished him exceedingly — to find he was deprived of the full and free confidence of the hon. member for Napier Country (Mr. Buchanan.) After that gentleman crying out for so long against his extravagance and mismanagement, he suddenly discovered that he (Mr. Ormond) had enjoyed that hon. member's full and free confidence hitherto. (Laughter.) The hon. member was not content to leave the issue on the words he (Mr. Ormond) had said, but must drag in other gentlemen, besides making it a question of Provincialism against Centralism. During the many years he had been connected with public life, he had no doubt made some enemies — it would be strange if he had not. The hon. member invited all these too to come in against him in voting for this resolution. If the Council had a strong opinion on provincialism, they were in the right to express themselves. He hoped they would not consider him if they deemed what he had said — and which was what he firmly believed — unbecoming, and if they thought it deserving of a vote of censure. So far as he himself was concerned, office had no attractions for him ; he should be rather glad than otherwise to be relieved of it. If this motion did pass — to use his own words, which were not "if they had hearts as big as mice," but "if they had any self-respect," they could not remain in office. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member (Mr. Buchanan) had said that he (Mr. Ormond) had used language that was not decent, in speaking of the "gross mismanagement and extravagance of Provincial Governments, as applied to Hawke's Bay." Now what did that mean, if it meant anything.

Why, that he (Mr. Ormond) having had a good deal to do with the expenditure of the Province during the last five years, was accusing himself of mismanagement and extravagance (Laughter.) He did not think himself to be quite such a donkey as to talk in that manner, making himself out a person whose leaning was continually towards gross extravagance (Laughter.) His remarks applied to Provinces generally. He had never attempted to conceal his opinions ; many present who had known him long knew that he had been against provincialism for years, — looking forward to the day when it would be swept away, and with it the gross extravagance attendant on it. He was perfectly justified as a member of that House in saying so ; without being such an utter booby as to condemn himself as guilty of extravagance. The words he had used were to the effect that provincialism was on its last legs, and that two years would see the end of it ; and he was happy to say that this was the feeling that pervaded the minds of members of a higher legislature. He had heard of nothing in another place but the decay of provincialism and, no doubt, it was merely a question of time when the institution would die out. He had for years and years held the same opinion. In 1862 he had joined the colonial party, and had never missed an opportunity of recording Ms vote for centralism as against provincialism; nor would he neglect a chance of doing so while he had the honor to sit there (Hear, hear.) He had devoted much of his time to the service of the province, for which he had not asked nor would he accept emolument. ' He would refer member, to his in the Assembly as a criterion of his public conduct ; he had on every occasion stood up there to defend his province when it required defending. The member for Te Aute (Mr. Tanner) had said people charged him with making what he could out of the Province. Mr. Buchanan : 12s. 6d. a day (Laughter.) Mr. Oemond: Well; there was the miserable 12s. 6d. a day, true. (Renewed laughter.) That was a great thing, no doubt, not to ,name what he intended to make. It had been said the member for Porangahau was working to get a road made up to his own door. Well, all he could say was, that he had not got it yet. (Laughter.) There was a road to Waipawa, which he had the use of in common with many others ; that was the great advantage he had taken of his position, of which so much had been said, according to the member for Te Aute. He would fearlessly go back to the beginning, and ask whether anything he had ever done would afford ground for such a charge to be based upon (Hear, hear.) In the first session of the Provincial Council he and his brother runholders at that time. could have done just as they chose. What did this party do— they brought in a resolution to tie up the lands of the province for the future good of the' province. Unfortunately they had a man to deal with who wanted the money from the sale of the lands, for provincial extravagance, and consequently the resolutions did not become law. It was Mr. Fitzgerald to whom he referred. It had been said by one hon. member (Mr. Buchanan) that he would do what he could to get the assistance of the Council in prolonging its own existence. That would not affect the result in the slightest degree; no eflort could carry on what, from sheer want of money, was coming to an end all over the colony. JS"o doubt Hawke's Bay would live as- long as any other province in the Northern Island. Canterbury and Otago, in the south, however, had large landed estates ; of course they had also a large amount of indebtedness, but from the fact of their having large landed properties, those provinces- would last longer than the rest in the race which was now going on for extinction. As to "tender mercies," and " cringing," he hoped the expression would not. appear in the public Erints without an explanation, or the pubc might form a wrong impression, and one which the representatives of the province were not entitled to. The object of the colonial party in the colony was to bring the people themselves to see the value of real local Government. The power would rest with the people themselves. As to the General Government's extravagant estimate for Hawke's Bay, he would quote a few items. Under the late financial proposals of theTreasurer,lialf the consolidated revenue of the colony was to go to the provinces, but then there were many direct charges upon the provinces. Formerly, they had received three-eighths of the customs, but under the Treasurer's proposals, they would get only two-eighths instead of three-eighths. And yet it was difficult to see how these charges could be lessened. To shew the people of the province the kind of things the General Government were so extravagant upon, he would read, the items estimated by them : — Provincial expenditure, £6482; Sub-Treasury, £150 a year, under General Government management : Stamps, £125 : electoral expenses, £75, Superintendent, contingencies, £135 ; District Courts, £150; Resident Magistrates' Courts, £1070 ; Registrar of Deeds, £350 ; Postal', £1818 ; Customs, £1260; Militia and Volunteers, £1349. While he admitted theobjections to thelatter charge he doubted if they coulddo without anyof this expenditure if a different sort of thing were established to-morrow. With regard to provincial expenditure, a large reduction might be made, when they would have boards, worked as they are worked in other parts of the colony. Talking of boards, the Canterbury Road Boards had proved of great advantage ; they were doing an immense deal or good for the places over which they had control ; things having been accomplished which could never have been done by the .Provincial Government itself. It had been said that they were going back to the old Wellington state of things ; but to the meanest capacity that view of the matter was impossible, especially in these days of the telegraph. Time would find them prepared for the changes which must come, and ready to receive and carry them on properly. He would not detain the Council any longer, for'the atmosphere was unbearable from tho heat ; he would conclude by saying that the words of the motion could not justly be applicable to him ; at the same time he called upon any hon. gentleman who disagreed with the course he had taken in expressing his opinions — opinions which he gloried in — to signify his disapprobation by voting for the resolutions. Mr. Caelyon said he hoped whenever any real or tangible charge was made against any member he should not shrink from his duty in supporting it ; but in this case it was a very different matter. The whole question seemed to merge into one of provincialism against centralism ; and it would have been better to discuss that question by itself than to mix it up with a charge against the hon members on the Government benches. (Hear hear.) As well might they mix it up with some other law which was not popular with a majority of the Council, for instance, a Maine Liquor Law. (Laughter.) He liked to see the hon. member (Mr. Buchanan) poking his finger into people's eyes and pulling out their motes ; he was always glad to hear that hon. rn.em.ber address the House, and thought they had reason to be thankful that they had him in the

. Council; but he trusted ltt would hardly •' press this motion to a division. (Hear, hear.) The Government could not well ; be carried on if on such indefinite grounds ; charges of want of confidence could be i made. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Bhodes said that for all the mo- ■ tion contained ho might as well have taken no notice of it. Carlyle had spoken in .his writings of " Parliamentary ' bagpipes." They had heard a tune on those . pipes played several times that day with , no result save a dance round the table. . (Laughter.) The member for Napier Country, (Mr. Buchanan) while moving a vote of want of confidence had said he did not intend it to be taken as sueh — Mr. Buchanan said he did not say so. Mr. Rhodes understood him in that light. Some gentlemen he saw round him were associated with him when Hawke's Bay was separated from lington province ; and those gentlemen knew that he was then opposed to Provincialism ; but he, in common with others, had succumbed to it for the purpose of getting the land revenues, which would otherwise have been spent elsewhere. The moment the land revenue ceased, Boad Boards under some modified system must take the place of the expensive Provincial institutions. "As Deputy Superintendent he would decidedly object to the motion being withdrawn ; let it go to a division, and they would see who were their friends and who , their enemies. Major Lambebt thought it was simply a question of Provincialism against the General Government, and it was capable of being settled very speedily without a division. As far as the hon. member at the head of the Government was concerned, his opinions were no secret ; they had been known to many for the last five or six years. Why he (Major Lambert) himself was one of the illustrious six who voted against Provincialism; though he had since seen many benefits derived from it. He was one of those who thought the present Executive might be reconstructed with advantage, to that Council ; at any rate some of the gentlemen present perhaps would not dislike to see it. He must say there had been something offensive in the manner of the Executive at times. For instance, the remark made by one of them about " Parliamentary bagpipes" looking at the same time at the member for the Napier Country Districts. Mr. Rhodes said he might have looked at the Speaker, he was not looking particularly at any one. Major Lambeet repeated it — looking at the hon. member for Napier country. Such remarks were unpleasant and uncalled for. Some members really did not know when they were offensive (Hear, hear, from Mr. Buchanan, and laughter.) The hon. member might cry "Hear, hear," but he had not got his dressing yet. (Laughter.) These things were not called for. Then there was the remark about " crouching and cringing." The people of Hawke s Bay had no occasion to do anything of the sort (Hear, hear.) On the contrary, they carried their heads somewhat high. He could call to mind' several instances of the haughty manner of the Executive. Then as to the object of the motion — they were told by the Executive that they were not responsible — that they could not by any possibility be removed. An Hon. Member : Turn them out. Major Lambejjt : How ? Could they express .great confidence in Mr. McLean, and in the same breath tell him they had no confidence in the advisers he had himself chosen ? All they could do was to tell .the Superintendent his advisers were not "the men for Galway;" and, if he would reply " Then, I am not the man for Galway.' Mr. Weston :, Let him say so. - Mr. Rhodes : He has said so. Major Lambeet would not go much further into the matter then. If the Council had no power, no remedy, for such a state of things, he, for one, would rather pay for responsible Government , than be in that position. What were they to do ? The great gun of the Government said put it to the vote; and another of the Executive declined to allow the motion to be withdrawn. He was very glad to hear the hon. member for Porangahau's defence — he, would not call it defence, but explanation.' The. , ion. member occupied a very proud position ; and the remarks of the member for Te Aute (Mr. Tanner) were out of place and uncalled for. Mr. Tanner ; The hon. member heard the remarks made himself. Major Lambekt : Very likely, but not in that House. If the Superintendent was still of the same mind, could some hon. member show him how to remedy the matter P Mr. Buchanan had only a few remarks to make in reply. First, as to the assumption of the member for Wairoa, that he had made a personal attack upon him. He would appeal to the Speaker whether he had done so. Colonel Whitmoee had not accused him of a personal attack, but merely as referring pointedly to him. Mr. Buchanan had been anxious to avoid making a personal attack on the hon. member for the Wairoa ; at the same time he must claim his privilege of commenting on him as a public officer; an A he had endeavoured to do so without being offensive. He was glad to see that hon. member's change of opinion under the coming institutions spoken of by the member for Porangahau — the pleasant times that were shortly to arrive, when £350,000 would be lifted off the shoulders of the class the member for the Wairoa had at length taken under his protection — the working man; when, after paying the interest on the loan, the rest of the revenue would be devoted to the payment of the general staff. He thought it extremely problematical when taxation in New Zealand would bo reduced. No General Government for years to come could venture to reduce taxation in this country, and seeing that to . be the case,, our administration should be conducted as economically as possible. It had been said one of the changes would be a nominative Superintendent instead of an elective one. On looking over the General Government estimates, he found the sum of £450 charged for clerks for Mr. McLean as Government agent. That shewed what a nominated Superintendent would be. Whatever system was adopted, this would be the case; the fact of holding high office gave patronage, which would in all cases be exercised. The member for Porangahau had flung the segis of his protection over his brethren of the Executive, a"nd a wise step it was. He at least, in assuming all the responsibility, could point to services which they could not — Mr. Rhodes said, that the member for Napier (Mr. Kennedy) and himself were prepared to accept their full share of responsibility. Mr. Buchanan : The hon. member for Porangahau, at least could refer to works which the others had not accomplished. Mr. Rhodes : Yes they have. Mr. Buchanan was not surprised at these interruptions. He had already been compared by the member for Clrve to " Parliamentary bagpipes." « ex quovis ligno no fit mercurius ; He would render it in the vernacular for the hon. member's benefit — " You cannot

make a silk purse out of a sow's ear." The member for Porangahau had tried to throw dust in their eyes by professing himseli glad of obtaining his (Mr. Buchanan's) confidence at last. No doubt lie had turned it adroitly, including him in. that number who had had confidence in him, but he had never changed his opinion. He had written that motion as the opinion of the majority of the Council to take effect if it passed ; for himself, he had generally been in the minority, and probably would continue so. He had made no charge against the member for Porangahau of obtaining anything by virtue of his position ; had he entertained such an opinion he thought the Council were sufficiently acquainted with his character to know that he would have taxed him with it face to face. There was ' much talk of having three Boards under the General Government. What was that Council but a Board ? What had it ever done beyond the functions of such a Board ? Was there a single Act in the Statute Book that would reflect credit on them as legislators ? Not a session passed without the legislation which they perpetrated being returned accompanied by remarks much to their discredit. He knew they were not singular in this respect ; other provinces were in the same category, according to the Attorney-General's statement. What had this Council done, or what would it have to do beyond vote estimates and carry out a road or two ; and one Board could perform this better than three. They were told they had no power of removing the Executive whatever ; that so long as they pleased the Superintendent, their master, tliey were all right. That was his reason for bringing forward the second resolution, that when their master returned, he might see what his good and faithful servants have been about during his absence — to see whether he would endorse the acts of his servants. The member for Porangahau said they were responsible, but could not define the responsibility ; he had intended, if the motion sucoeeded, to place it in the Superintendent's hands, and let him form his own Opinion. He (Mr. Buchanan) might have been inclined to modify, or withdraw the resolutions ; but after being openly challenged by the member for Cliye to a division, he thought it a pity to spoil his pugnacity. The motion was . then put and lost on the following division : — Aybs— 2. - Noes— l 4. Messrs. Buchanan, Messrs. Ormond, Weston. Kennedy, Rhodes, Wood, Parsons, Dolbel, Sutton, Locke, Oarlyon, Tanner, Tiffen. Whitmore, Irvine. ] ' Lambert. The members of the Executive made an effort to withdraw from the division, t but were not allowed to do so. Papers. Mr. Oemond laid on the table a statement of provincial liabilities up to 30th September, 1867, and some other papers. Petition. *. . . Mr. Wood presented a petition from James Ashton, setting forth that he had suffered great loss through his paddock having been used for some months as a public road, and praying that his case might be considered. Petition read and received. Mr. Wood moved — That the Council adjourn for an hour. Carried, and the Council adjourned at 6 o'clock. Toll-gates. On the Council again meeting, Mr. Wood, pursuant to notice, moved the following : — That in the opinion of this Council the principle of levying money for the maintenance of trunk roads by means of tailgates should not be confined to the vicinity of Napier and Meanee, but that tailgates should also be established at intervals on the made roads of the interior— say at the junction of the Middle and Te Aute roads, Paki Paid, Te Aute, "Waipawa, and Eperaima. Mr. Wood said that, in bringing forward this motion, he had no objection to tb^e principle of taxation to keep up the roads. He had shewn this by his having Voted for the Toll-gate Bill, qualified by the resolution of the member for Napier Country. But he objected to unequal taxation. If any other method had suggested itself of remedying that inequality — whether by means of tolls on a sliding scale or otherwise, he would not have brought.forward the present motion ; but for a resident in Napier, who could not obtain a little fresh air without travelling over three miles of shingle, to have to pay just the same as- the inland settler who came from Waipawa, over 40 miles of beautifully made roads, seemed to him a monstrous proposition. A Napier man, (such as himself) who drove out every day in quest of-health or exercise, would have to contribute at the rate of £18 15s. per annum. The same would be paid by the large class of small agriculturalists, whose business brought them to town daily, and by that other large class in the Papakura Block, who had paid 2s. an acre for roads which they had not yet got, and would be called upon to contribute enormously by means of tolls for the maintenance of (to them) imaginary lines of road. The principle, however, of toll-gates had been affirmed ; and having been so, it should be made applicable over the full extent of the main road — not merely at one extremity of it. Hence the motion lie had brought forward. It had been objected to his motion that Paki Paki was near the junction of the Te Aute and Middle roads, some four or five miles. There was force in this, and he would not press his motion to the fullest extent ; at the same time four miles of good metalled road were better than the shingle beach which the people of Napier would have to pay for the privilege of travelling over. Having answered some other objections in anticipation, he said that his motion was based upon a principle of fair play, and he hoped the Government would not oppose it. He particularly counted upon the support of the member for Napier who sat on the Government benches,- who could not tax his own constituents and exempt all others from the charge. Mr. Weston would support the principle of tolls ; but would not support the motion. The object of tolls was to derive a benefit for the revenue. They could not carry out the idea of spending the money on the district where the tolls were raised. He did not see where tollgates could be established profitably in the proposed districts. Local appropriation, under the resolution lately carried, would withdraw the tolls from the control of the house, and give it to districts under the Local Trust Sill. If any benefit could be shown to be derived from the proposed measure it would be different ; it would only Create a bitter feeling between the country and town districts, and ought not to emanate from the hon. member, who should strive to smooth all little difficulties of that sort. Col. Whitmore thought the proposition a reasonable one, and if the words " as soon as they can be let so to produce revenue" were added, lie would support it. He thought there would be a better opportunity in committee for a motion or thai sort ; it should have been left until then

3 The resolution lately" passed (Mr. Bttr.^; r chan.an's) limited the distance too par-! . f rowly. With regard to evasion, a few pc& . • sons on horseback might evade the toll?, I perhaps ; but the wheeled traffic would not r be able to do so ; nor would most pebble, i ; object to pay a toll in return for the J com- / i fort of getting a good road. He thought ! the proposition, fair and reasonable, and , ; hoped no gentleman representing up . country woiud object to it. ■ Mr. Carlton: One gate would clear ; the whole for 24 hours. ; Colonel Whitmobe-: It might be cxi tended to 48. He thought persons who i took "small excursions should be just as , . liable as those who came from a distance ; ■, all should be treated alike. The province, might put up the toll-gates and fencing, and leave the tolls until some person would rent them. He thought the proposition 1 so fair . that lie would support it as it stood. Mr. Caelyon said he could see no harm in the resolution ; the principle was a good one. The introducer had talked about a sliding scale ; but he should remember the great difference in the roads. If they 'gave the inland settlers roads, they have no objection to pay tolls. If they had such roads as those in the district where the first toll-gate was proposed to be set up they would be only too happy to agree to toll-gates. Pleasure seekers in JNapier could get a ride of three miles and a quarter without paying toll ; and he should think that distance enough. He had himself once hired a horse in Napier, and -nothing should induce him to hire one again, he could not get four miles an hour out of him.- (Laughter.) Two hours were enough for a ride, as far as the toll-gate and back. As to the' distance being any criterion ; they did not get the road to travel over. . People near Napier were deriving an enormous income and large profits from lands, such as at Meanee. They must begin somewhere, but as the up-country people did not object to the roads being commenced near the town, the people of the town should not object to the tolls being also commenced there. He should be in favor of toll-gates until some better suggestion was made. He agreed with the resolution, but did not think the proposed tolls would pay. There' was not much visiting in the country; when the residents went anywhere, they generally came through the Jn apier toll-gates, and spend their money in JNapier. He believed in the principle of the resolution, though he could not support it. Mr. Tannee also agreed with the prin- ' ciple of the resolution, but believed it would not act. For that reason, if he . thought it likely to come to a division, he should move an amendment that it be read that day six months. Mr. Osmond said he meant to take the sense of the Council in comniittee on the Toll-gate Bill as to whether the resolution carried by Mr. Buchanan should stand part of the bill j he himself would do his utmost to bring'this money under annual appropriation of the Council. As regarded this motion, the hon. member who moved it had not shewn that it would be any source of revenue. This motion would establish five additional toll-bars in the country. The cost of erecting the tollgates on the proposed sites would be £200, and the revenue derived from them might reach £400 beyond the money spent in their erection. Was it worth while, for that amount, to put such an embargo as that upon the people of the province ? If the bill could have been dispensed with it would not have been brought down. If some equitable means of having a sliding scale could be proposed, without going to an absurd expense, so as to make people who travelled 40 miles pay more' than those who travelled l 0 miles, he would not object to it. The inland districts had not the advantages of the town and its vi- * cinity : .for instance, Porangahau had no chance of getting at the markets. The centre depended in a great measure upon the arrival of produce from the interior. He only knew of one toll in Auckland or Wellington ; there was one within a mile of Wellington, placing it in the same position relative to Wairarapa and other places as the bill proposed to place Napier; yet there had been no complaints from the residents there. He haa been sorry to see the hon. member's (Mr. Buchanan) resolution carried; it was contrary to all justice, and he hoped to see it yet rescinded. The member forWairoa had suggested an addition to the resolu- " tion of the words "so soon as a revenue shall be derivable." From information furnished to him by the Provincial Engineer, he might state that three of them would give a revenue directly ; it would cost £200 to put. up the gates, houses, &c, and the revenue might amount to another £50 or £100. Was it worth while to tax the people £100 to get £200. or £300P He would vote against the resolution. Mr. Tiffen would oppose the resolution. He was sorry to hear the hon. member for Porangahau express his regret at the, resolution of Mr. Buchanan having passed. That measure was settled, ana the remark was out of place. He believed there would not be enough traffic to pay on the proposed roads. ' . Mr. Button said there appeared to be a discrepancy in the estimates of revenue from the toll-gate. The hon. member (Mr. Ormond) had stated that £600 would be derived from the town and Meanee; that left £1700 for other distriots, which amount would, according to the shewing of the member for Porangahau, himself, pass through the toll-gates in the interior. Mr. Ormond said from an estimate made the other day by the Provincial Engineer, £800 would be paid by people crossing Ngaruroro Bridge, that Tbeing the sum realised by two puntmtn there ; the town, £300; Meanee, past the bridge, £300 ; and.£7oo for the districts of Tutaekuri, Ngaruroro, Papakura, Kereru, and right up. Mr. Kennedy said he would say a few words, as he had been appealed to by the hon. member (Mr. Wood). He would oppose the motion, on the ground^ that it would not pay. , It seemed to him that this was simply an attempt to shelve the ' bill ; seeing that .the expense of these gates would swallow up the revenue to be derived from them. He regretted that the proposed toll-gate could not be put farther from town, but this was impossible. He admitted that some degree of injustice was involved in having it so near as Tareha's Bridge, but in all taxations there was injustice to somebody. Major Lambert said the best argument he had heard used against the motion was that it would not pay. He thought the member for Havelock had thrown off a great deal of his usual caution, and brought forward an unfair motion — a . motion which, if carried, would be of no advantage to Napier. He had never be- ; fore heard of men being stigmatised, for i keeping 'a carriage ; it was usually consi- ; dered a thing to be proud of. His impression was that the measure was brought : forward to rip up an old sore. He could ■ name struggling farmers, too — men farmi ing from 60 to 100 acres of land, and with no roads within twenty miles of their l farms. He did not speak of the " strugl gling farmer" derisively ; they were a class ' he honored, and he would give them proj tection. There was no toad between • Hampden and Waipawa, a distance of. 18 b miles. Town members supporting; the . motion would be standing m their own.

light, "''as toll-gates would keep out the traffic frbm Napier. Mr, Button said the hon. member had not advocated that course when the Tollgate]Bill was before the House. A tollfate up the" country would injure Napier, at one near it, he supposed, would be foi its. benefit. Major Lambert did not feel enlightened by what the hon. member had said, (Laughter.) He thought the motion was brought forward out of a little pet, and he would vote against it. Mr. Rhodes said the motion had been stigmatised as an attempt to shelve the Toll-gate. Bill; altogether. He could noi ' see it in that light ; he believed it was a legitimate motion j but there would nd for some time be any kind of revenue derived from it. There was. sound reasoning in the motion, and the time might come when he would support such a resolution, though; lie could not jio so at present. The schedule would have to be made when the bill went into committee, and the rates could then be fixed. They must either have toll-gates or rates on lands. Mr. Locke said he had at first been in favour of the motion, but had changed his/ opinion on hearing the question discussed ; he did not Relieve the tolls it proposed would pay. Mr Jbvi^e would support the motion. It hid been said the roads commenced at Napier, but. they had to travel over three or four miles of a shingle beach to get to ikhe commencement of any road whatever. ',' Toll-gates were becoming obsolete in England. He knew of an instance there where a Toll Board was £80,000 in debt six years ago. He was sorry the bill had been passed ; it was unjust. He was bound to support the motion. Mr.. Buchanan did not rise to make any lengthened observations. They knew he had given' the bill his uncompromising opposition. He thought it would have been far better for the hon. member (Mr. Wood) to have gone with himself and those ,who had supported him, and voted altogether against the bill— (hear, hear) — instead, of attempting to cast upon others the, burden. This debate showed what they might expect in the halcyon days coining, according to the member for Porangahau, when Provincial mismanagement woiild be extinct and road boards would shed blessings all around (Laughter.) They had debating enough over what he might term the threepenny view of the; question;, there would be such a scene as had never been witnessed in that Council when the coming Boards spoken of should take a shilling view of the matter. The member for Petane was the 1 only one, who had shewn his discretion by not speaking on the matter. An Hon. , Member : The member for Mohaka has not spoken either. Mr. Buchanan said the member for Mohaka had moved a motion during the debate.' The member for had preseryeid his consistency by remaining silent. .He t also would preserve his consistency fry voting against the resolution. Mr. Wood said he had not brought forward the motion in any pet or temper ; on ..the contrary, he had voted for the Bill under certain restrictions. Mr. Kennedy liad accused, him of attempting to shelve the bill. Such might easily have been done on the motion for the second reading, without the necessity for this motion. He had voted for the Toll-gate Bill ; and therefore did not see any inconsistency in proposing additional tollbars, and providing that a necessary tax should bear equally upon all classes. He was not actuated by any wish to get up a cry of town against country, as had been said; on the contrary, his motion was suggested by hearing a remark from tHe member for Te Aute (Mr. Carlyon.) Nothing had been said to show that'a tollbar at Napier, so long as it was there only, was fair. The member for Porangahau had estimated that, out of the £2300 set down as revenue, £300 only would be contributed by Napier, and £300 by Meanee; but he (Mr. Wood) could name 20 persons who would have to contribute either amount betwixt them. He doubted the statement that £800 had been netted by any ; lessee of the punt ; he had made inquiries, and could not hear it confirmed. He based his motion upon the principle taxation, if necessary, should fall equally; and that it could not do so so long, as the. same charge was made for three.miles of shingle as for 40 miles of road. Objection had been taken to the motion, that these additional toll-gates . would not pay. Well to meet that, he would, with the permission of the council, move an addition to his original motion," "so soon as they or any one of them are capable of contributing towards revenue ; the lessee paying all expenses, and the same , being advertised twice a year." Nothing could be more resonable than this; that when. they could be made a source of revenue they should come into operation. ] Mr. Weston wished to know if he could Speak on the fresh matter attempted to be introduced. The Speakeb said he could not do so before r it was put as part of the resolution. Major Lambebt said the proper course was for the hon, member (Mr. Wood) to get some other member to embody the addition in an amendment. Mr. Obmond said the proper way was for the hon. member to ask leave to amend his motion. If the House agreed, he could do so, but if any hon. member dissented, leave could not be granted. In either case no. discussion could take place on the matter. Mr. Wood moved for leave to amend the original motion by the addition of the words he had proposed. , Major Lambebt said they were establishing a bad precedent. Mr. Obmond said if any gentleman objected, the question could not be put. „ Mr . Tanneb agreed with the last speaker. ,' ; The Speakeb said he must be guided by the experience of gentlemen as to the usual course in another place (General Assembly.) f p.Major Lambebt did not know whether Jhe. present case would not come under jClause 27, relating to giving notice of amendment of motion ; if so the permission jpf.thj? whole Council must- be obtained. •,, , Mr. .^Vood said . that the ruling of the Speaker was correct, but he did not think :so 'reasonable a proposition would have been objected to. He would not, under ,those circumstances, press the motion. He could see the opinion of the Council .was against it ; he therefore asked leave ' -to. withdraw it. /, .Leave granted, and motion withdrawn .accordingly. 1 Slaughter house Bill. { -■ ■ Mr. Obmond moved the postponement >of this Bill until next sitting day. It. was not yet printed. Agreed to. [The hon. member should have said that it was not •yet drafted.] .. T.y-!,- : . I ■ Committee of Supply. . ,i,' ".dnthe motion for going into Committee >,of Supply. : r J^v JMfrV Oemond said he would make his >^j,^^<^;sfo^amenf; as brief as possible. ->J~Jjj£e give the finance of the province ' 4 fpa|t ipur and ensuing eight £o'hffi4W£&fc •■>'■■ ./.' ■'.••-'■ '.' • tothefinanf^^^c|^|&^^m^n| /: being; made until copies oi *Mo \Ws 'i^im^es; liprare 1 supplied 'to the mem-

> Mr.'OEMOND said the proper course was to make the finanoial statement before I producing the estimates. On the last oc- . casion he had given copiesof the estimates . first; but he nad since 'ascertained that , he had done wrong ingoing so. r Mr. Buchanan said the hon. member was wrong. The estimates should be pre- . viously circulated. . .*- Mr. Oemond sajdit was arjpoint of or- ! der. He was in possession oi the House. [ Mr. 'Buchanan said the financial statement should be made in Committee of l Supply. . j Mr, Obmond said he was pursuing the ; course adopted in the House of Represent tatives ; where they never heard a word of 5 the estimates until the financial statement j was made, and where that statement was . made beforegoing into committee, ; Colonel Whitmore corroborated this Mr. Buchanan produced "Hnnsard," , and shewed that Mr. Fitzherbert, in making his financial statement in the House • of Representatives, did so in committee, and addressed Mr. Carleton, as chairman ofi committees. jMr. Obmond and Colonel Whitmobe said that they must admit this authority, but their strong impression was that this i statement was made while the Speaker was in the chair. Mr. Obmond, after some further dis- , cussion, resumed his statement, but was i interrupted by a motion by Mr. Weston , to the effect that the Council should adjourn. The Council then (near 10 p.m.,) adjourned till Tuesday.