Gwneral Assembly Debates. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. TUESDAY, JULY 30. Local Government Bill.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 11, Issue 865, 10 August 1867, Page 3

Gwneral Assembly Debates. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. TUESDAY, JULY 30. Local Government Bill.

The Speakee announced a Message from His Excellency the Governor, forwarding for the consideration of the House of Representatives a Bill to establish road districts, and generally, toprovide for the administration of local affairs outside of boroughs, The Bill was then read a first time.

Mr. Stafford. — Sir, in rising to move that the Bill be ordered to be read a second time on Friday next, I propose to make that explanation with reference to the objects and principles of the Bill which, if it had not come down by message, it would have been my duty to nave made on asking for leave to introduce it. This Bill has been, expected with, considerable interest not only by this House but by the country generally.. That interest has arisen partly from the announcement made by the Government at the close of last session, that they proposed to introduce some such measure — after a measure having the scope and tendency of the present Bui had been withdrawn, without positive rejection by the House — and partly because the country has in many directions evinced a desire to have a definite system, which would promote the growth, and the fuller development of the resources of the country districts. This is essentially a Bill prepared in recognition of the widely altered position which the country has now arrived at from the position which it occupied when the Constitution Act was passed. Circumstances are still progressing in the same direction, and are creating a difference between the interests of the more recently settled country districts, and those of the towns and older settled suburban districts. So long as the great bulk of the population of New Zealand was tobe found grouped either in, orwithin a few miles of tne seaport towns in which they had originally landed, there was neither a reason for discontent, nor a pressing necessity for any such measure as the Government has now proposed. I anticipate that I may possibly be met with a statement that tnere is no discontent that would warrant any such measure being submitted to the Legislature at the present time. Indeed we have heard already, in the early part of the session, a statement from one honorable gentleman, that he travelled through a number of districts, and ,could say with regard to fourteen out of fifteen .districts in the Province of Auckland, that he had never heard a single murmur of discontent, or a desire expressed for any change in the position of the country districts. I can only say that the honorable member, and those who may hold such views, remind me of that interesting story of Eip Van Winkle, who, after a series of years, woke up in exactly the same position as that in which he had gone to sleep a century before. They may be designated as political Rip Van Winkles, perfectly unaware of the discontent. going on around them, while they themselves are in a state of placid somnolence. It is unnecessary to argue on the question of the large amount of discontent which reigns at present throughout the Colony. A consideration of the proceedings of the different Provincial Legislatures, and a perusal of the leading articles of different papers, and of the letters contributed to them, show that there is through -the length and breadth of the land a considerable amount of discontent with the present system. ' I do not wish, the House to suppose that I desire for a moment to assume that that discontent is felt solely with the provincial system ; for I am perfectly aware that the General Government is quite as much abused, and in its action as much attacked as thejaction of any Provincial Government or of the whole collectively, and that discontent with respect to the General Government is by no means local. We find it loudly expressed in the North, and we hear a refrain from the South, and. we see it again taken up in the centre of the Colony, where it might be supposed, if anywhere, that the efforts of tne Government would meet with proper consideration. We may certainly assume that such is the case from the local journals ; and I think the recognition of ■ that fact, if of no other, sliould in itself have been a sufficient inducement to the Government to consider what was its position, and the position of New Zealand, what it had done that was wrong, an 4 what it might do that was right, and what it had omitted to do ; and recognising the existence of that discontent, as well as the discontent loudly expressed against Provincial Governments, to determine whether the time had not come when the General Government should invite the General Legislature to consider whether it would not be prudent to introduce some system which might at all events enable the inhabitants of the conntry districts, if they thought fit to do so, to have a somewhat different administration of their local affairs, and a somewhat different organization for conducting them. That consideration having been forced on the Government, the Governmentnaturally proceeded to examine what was the course of policy, and what was the direction of the measures; which similar communities to our own, offshoots of the same empire, inheriting v the same blood, had introduced with reference to the improvement of their local affairs ; and we found that there was an almost remarkable concurrence of legislation in the direction which the House is now invited to consider amongst all the largest Colonies of the British empire, especially among those having representative institutions and responsible government. We found that this system, which we invite the Legislature to consider, has been in force in Canada for twenty-eight years, and that since it was established there it has been introduced in other parts of North America, in Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick, and more recently on the Australasian Continent, in Victoria, South Australia, New South Wales, and in Queensland. And we find that although considerable alterations and amendments of the original Acts' have been made, all have been in the direction of increasing the scope and powers of the original Acts, and making them more full and comprehensive ; and that in no case have they been repealed, nor where the powers "have boon given to any country districts have they been taken away from them. I know it has been very industriously represented that this Bill was intended to be an attack on Provincial Governments, and not only have those making these representations so stated the action of the Government, but they have superadded motives and intentionswhichltakethisopportunityof emphatically denying. We have seen it stated without contradiction in some of the journals of the Colony, that the Government meant to diminish the legislative and administrative powers of the Provinces. We have seen it stated at a large meeting in an important town of the Colony, at which the honorable member for the Gold Fields was present, and did not contradict the assertion, that one of the first schemes for the destruction of provincialism was the introduction of a Bill to provide for the nomination of superintendents. The honorable member must have known that was not the case, and I ask him as a leader of I public ppinion in that part of the Colony,

and as one who is acquainted with what is probable, and what is the contrary, and a's one who, I presume, is anxious that the public mind should be properly informed of what is going on, how it was that he did not get up and deny the probability of such a measure being introduced Mr. Yogel.— l believed it was true.

Mr. Staffoed. — I can only say then that his sagacity is much less than I was prepared to give him credit for, and if he thinks the Government did not give him credit for some sagacity, he is mistaken. I am prepared to state, that so far is this Bill from being an attack on, or any lessening of the powers of Provincial Governments and Provincial Legislatures, that I conscientiously believe that no measure would so effectually relieve the Provincial Governments of some of .the most serious embarrassments under which they labour, or would so much tend to elevate Provincial Legislatures as the operation of this Bill should it become law. What would it do P It would absolutely shut out of Provincial Legislatures that unseemly struggle, which has been constantly increasing, for the division of the local revenues according to the necessities of the various districts which members ,of Provincial Councils think it incumbent on them, in order that their constituents may think they are doing, their duty by them, to urge in turn. No person can read the proceedings of the Legislatures in the various Provinces without coming to the conclusion that it is highly baneful to good legislation that there should be this increasing scramble between one district and another, resulting in uncertainty and in lowering the whole tone of the Provincial Councils, in consequence of there being no definite principle whereby the country districts shall , receive those portions of the revenue to which they each might be considered fairly entitled. The leading features of the measure are these : — In the first place, it proposes to enable existing roads districts, which are already more or less established in seven out of nine of the Provinces, to come under its provisions by a speedy and simple process if they desire to do so. I may be met possibly with the question, that if there are already several of the Provinces of New Zealand which, without the assistance of this Legislature, have been enabled to constitute road boards, and to confer certain powers to administer and carry out public works, where is the necessity for further action by this Legislature and for its interfering with the action of seven out of the nine Provinces of the Colony. I answer to that that a very important decision of the Court of Appeal within the last few hours has confirmed the doubts which the Government have felt for a long period of the validity of the Provincial laws under which these boards and municipalities have acted; and that if these boards are to act conclusively, without a chance of their decisions being called in question,! it is absolutely necessary that they should have powers from this Legislature which can alone alter and amend the law without any fear of its power being questioned. That is one reason, but it may be said that it has been brought forward after the Bill has been considered, and after its provisions have been finally decided on. As I have just stated, however, although the decision of the Court of Appeal — which I may state I hope to be able to lay on the table in a few days — is of recent date, the grounds on which it would be based, and its probable character, have been long .known to the Government ; and some of the recently disallowed Bills have been so < disallowed ■ for reasons similar to those which are now pointed out by the judges of the Court of Appeal. That is one reason altogether outside of the political or financial bearings of the question, and it is a sufficient, and I trust the House will admit, conclusive reason, why, if the road boards are to have distinctive functions, and powers to make bye-laws, they can only be safely constituted by this Legislature. Although it is an important one, that is, however, only one reason why this Legislature should call into existence these road boards, if they desire to be called into existence, and I may here state that the bill is siniply a permissive one. We have never proposed, nor have we thought proper to come down to the country with a cast iron proposition, and say, "You shall have this measure, whether you like it or not." What we do say is this ; in view of the existing state of affairs throughout the country, if you like this measure, then it rests with yourselves only to come in and go to work under it. An additional reason why this Legislature should be the medium of conferring these powers, is that this Legislature alone can set apart any portion of the ordinary or territorial revenues of Her Majesty, which shall, by a permanent appropriation act, be assured to the several districts of the country as a permanent measure. We have, in this measure, sought to harmonise in every possible way the different powers which already exist under the Constitution Act of New Zealand. We have by no means sought to give the General Government any additional powers. That is another misrepresentation with reference to the intentions of the Government, which I take this opportunity of dispelling. It has been stated that, under this measure, the Government intended to enter into every district and interfere with public works and the execution of them. No such power is given by a single clause of this Bill. The final determination as to the character of the works, and the supervision and execution of them, in the greater portion of cases, is given to the districts themselves ; but where any external power is necessary, we have turned to the Provincial Governments and Superintendents and given it to them. Amongst these powers are those of subdividing districts which experience may have proved to be^ already too large. There is also a power given to the Superintendent of granting an order in certain cases on the Colonial Treasurer to impound that proportion of the territorial revenue which it is proposed to allocate to each district, and to appropriate it for certain purposes. I will give an illustration. Suppose three districts, A, B, and C, have one port and one. road, and suppose there is in district A, a hill or broken country over which it would be difficult to make a road, but the district in which this broken country is situated ha? got a road open to the port, and B and C cannot get at it through the hilly country, then this Bill empowers the Superintendent to make a main road through these districts, and to take the territorial' revenues of A, B, and C for that purpose. That is a sample . of the very useful and necessary powers of supervision which it is proposed to confer on the Superintendents by this Bill. Another is that of determining the erection and maintenance of a bridge or forry between two districts, neither of which might desire to undertake the work. Tho Superintendent has the power of causing a portion of the revenue to be set aside for the maintenance of such ferry or bridge. Again there might be this condition. A river might already have given indications of overflowing, but the place or point of overflow might be in one district, and the injury might be done in another. Then it is perfectly fair that some outside power should interpose, and divide the expense, althoiighthe works would be executed in one district only. I have only given a sample of the powers conferred by the

Bill. It is a large one, and requires consideration, and the House will not expect me to do more now than give a few of its leading features. I will not attempt now to give a description of the various powers of these boards. There are certain powers to be exercised by the .Governor in this Bill. For instance, the power of constituting a district on the petition of the inhabitants-, and the power of creating, one or more road districts a county. These counties will have no higher powers or undertake a higher class of works than road districts. But there is this special provision, that whereas fhey could not as road districts anticipate their revenue by borrowing, they can do so as counties, having a larger area and population, for the minimum in those counties is required to be larger than in the case of road districts. 1 They have then ; as counties, the power of anticipating their revenues by borrowing, if they consent to levy special rates to go entirely to the repayment of the loan. The House will, be naturally anxious to learn what are to be the proposed financial resources of the districts . These resources are various. In addition to what may be given to them by voluntary donations or subscriptions from persons who wished any special work calculated to improve their own property to be executed, which is a common proceeding in all rural localities, there is a power of rating, which is nob compulsory although it is nominally compulsory, inasmuch as the requirements of the Bill will be given effect to if the smallest possible amount is levied. The question of rating is virtually optional between the very lowest possible rate that can be imposed, and the rate of one. shilling in the pound on the annual income, not on the value to sell. These are the powers of rating, which we propose the districts to have. In respect of every penny or shilling received by rating, the Government propose, out of the consolidated revenue of the Colony, such as Customs, Stamp Duties, and other revenues collected under different Acts, to pay a double amount of that which they have raised by rates. It they raise one shilling in the pound, they will receive two shillings in tho pound from the consolidated revenue. If they desired to raise more than one shilling in the pound, any further provision from the consolidated revenue will cease, and they will not receive a higher contribution than in proportion to a rate of one shilling in the pound. The larger districts have the power of raising money — of borrowing that money to have certain works executed speedily and without waiting for the annual income to be received. It is proposed there should be a special levy to pay off such loans. In addition it is proposed to make an endowment from the territorial revenue, not of the Colony but of the district within which each board is constituted. It has beenfound impossible, having reference to the very different circumstances of different localities in New Zealand — as we do not start with a clean sheet paper on which we can devise apian that would apply equally to each and every district — it has been found impossible to place the districts in the same relative position to each other in reference to this endowment. The nearest approach was to consider as between 20 and 30 per centage of the territorial revenue in each district in proportion to the area of unsold land which remained. When I use the word territorial revenue, I don't mean pastoral rents . We propose to leave the pastoral rents t6 go untouched into the Provincial Treasuries. In using the words territorial revenue, I mean land sales — the gross amount of land sales. Where three-fourths of the whole area is still unsold land, 20 per cent, will be the reduction made in future ; where loss than three-fourths of the land is Unsold, and more than one-half, 25 per cent. ; and where less than one-half, 30 per cent. That is the highest amount of deduction that can be taken from the proceeds of land sales in each district. Having so taken that, and having so amply provided for each district by the power of rating, and the double contribution to the rates from the consolidated revenue of the Colony, and by the endowment from land sales, we believe that the Provincial Governments and Provincial Councils will be perfectly entitled to apply the large remainder they will have left of 70 or .80 per cent, of land sales to arterial works in their Provinces, to immigration, to the encouragement of education, or any large provincial works which it is the proper duty of those Governments to provide for ; and they will be able to do that absolutely unembarrassed by that unmistakeable grumbling which now takes place in different districts where the people think they have not received a fair share of consideration from the Provincial Council. In doing this we are closely treading in the steps of what was done by the financial resolutions of 1856. These financial resolutions professed to localize the territorial revenue of New Zealand. That territorial revenue was revenue of the Colony, subject to the appropriation of the General Assembly only, or, I should rather correct myself and say, scarcely subject to the appropriation of the General Assembly, because it was really revenue of the Colony under the control of tho Government for several years. The Government, without coming to Parliament, was enabled to take tho whole territorial revenue of New Zealand, and apply it in support of the different land and survey departments, and spend it in the extinction of the Native title throughout New Zealand. That mode of disposal was considered by the Government, of which I was at that time a member, not to be the most beneficial mode of disposing of Her Majesty's land revenue of New Zealand. We proposed, therefore, by the financial resolutions, to localize this land revenue by declaring that the revenue raised in any one Province should be spent in that Province. Now we do not propose to disturb the principle of these resolutions, but to further strengthen the system they sought to establish. We do not propose to take the money of any Province to spend it in another Province, but to localize within the boundaries of a Province a certain proportion, namely, from 20 to 30 per cent., to be spent within the boundaries of districts where the money has accrued, except in such cases as I havo referred to, where the common interests of two or more districts may require to have a common expenditure. In addition to the sources of revenue I have already indicated, we propose that the districts should have the lines and penalties imposed under bye-laws, and : for what are usually termed police offences. In the same manner we propose, in the Bill which will also be introduced for the special behoof of' municipalities in the towns, that the fines and penalties enforced under that particular Act, and which may accrue under bye-laws, should go into a common fund for the use of the districts where they are received. We propose that they should go entirely to the treasury of the boards. In doing so we shall be giving to the city of Dunedin that which she has professed to take by special Act. We propose to extend the same privilege and position to every other corporation in the colony. That is another instance that the General Government is not making use of the machinery of this Bill to grasp to itself any additional revenue ; but, on the contrary, is giving up some of its revenue which now goes to the Colonial Treasury. It is impossible for me to attempt to give

even a summary of the powers and functions which will devolve upon the various boards. Some of them are very important indeed. They will have power to take land for the completion or formation of ro^s or other public works, of course under restrictions, which will give fair warning and • fair opportunity to the owner of that land ; and where any external power is required in taking that land, that power is vested in the Superintendents of the various Provinces in which the lands are situated. They have got the power to assist and to create charitable institutions, markets, and other institutions, which in the progress of a country it is necessary to establish and create. The higher officers of these boards will be ex-offieio justices of the peace, and able to administer those laws which justices. ordinarily administer. . Bye-laws if objectionable are subject to: disallowance by Superintendents of Provinces in which they are made. In every way the House will observe we have not interfereci with the existing powers of the Provincial .Governments, • and we set aside no one of them, but invite them all to unite with us in doing what we honestly believe will tend more to develope the Anglo-Saxon race in New Zealand than any one measure yet introduced into the Legislature. We of course do not profess to say that this Bill is not susceptible of very considerable improvement in detail, and we invite the House to give the 'most careful consideration to the details of the Bill. The Government has every desire that the House should most carefully consider the provisions of ihe Bill, and hopes that when it is considered in committee the House will make any suggestions it may think any provisions in' the measure may require. We invite the assistance of the Provincial Governments in this. If the Provincial Governments arethe guardians of the privileges and liberties of the people, as some of them assert that they are, we say to them, come and showyourseif to be such by assisting in ameasure the principles of whicji more than any other absolutely accord with the functions, liberties, and privileges of Englishmen. We hear too much about Governments in this House. We hear Provincial Governments attacked at one time, and the General Government attacked at another. We hear a great deal of Governments but little of the people. Governments are mentioned as if the people were made for the Governments instead of the Governments being made for the people ; and as if the interests of Government were to be con-

sidered and not the interests of the people. The people will decide whether they Eke this measure or not. If they do not like the proposed Bill they will have nothing to do with it. If they desire it, do not let us interpose between the wishes of the people. Do not let us or the Provincial Govern-

ments pretend to declare or assume that any Government is a better judge of their interests than are the people themselves. , Mr. Campbell asked when the second reading of the Bill would be proposed. Mr. Stafford would propose Friday next for the second reading. Of course the Bill, as being one of a large character would be some time before the House, and the debate might be adjourned from day to day, perhaps for a considerable period. He therefore proposed to name Friday next as the day on which the Bill should be read a second time. The Government would, however, accept the opinion of the House as to fixing the day for the second reading. Mr. Campbell desired that the second reading might be made for a later day, as he would like to see the Bill circulated through the country. Mr. Stafford said that the Government had already made arrangements for having the Bill largely circulated throughout the country. In addition to being sent to every newspaper, copies would be sent to every mechanics' institute and reading room, and to every corporation or 1 town board. These copies would be sent by next mail.

Mr. Voghbl desired to make a few remarks on the Bill, but in no unfriendlyspirit to the Government, for any remarks made about it at that stage would be rather an advantage than otherwise to the Government, as they would be able to take them into consideration before the secpnd reading. His reason for wishing to make a few observations on the Bill at its present stage was that the introductory remarks made regarding the nature and effect of the Bill by the honorable member at the head of the Government were at variance with the facts as disclosed by the Bill itself and were not borne out by the explanations of the honorable member himself as to its general tenor. The honorable member had said that the Bill did not propose to -add to the powers of the General Government, or to take away from the powers of the Provincial Governments, and that districts might adopt it or not as they liked. But what were the facts ? "Were not all the chief powers under the Bill given to the Governor, and only very few unimportant ones to the j Superintendents ? For instance, the Governor had the -power of proclaiming counties, and that power was, he held, a cleaj. 1 infringement of the* rights of Provincial Governments, and an addition to the powers of the General Government, unless, indeed, they were to assume that the Governor -was not to exercise the power only with the advice and consent of his responsible advisers. But he did not understand that this was to bo the case. He really wondered that the honorable member had had the boldness, he might almost say the assurance, to rail as ho had done at the Press and at the people, 'simply because they had not chosen to come forward as champions of the General Government ; and there was such a discrepancy between the introductory remarks of the honorable.member and the facts relating to the Bill which he afterwards disclosed, as to require a very large amount of explanation. To him it seemed that the Bill not only gave large extra powers to the General Government, but correspondingly took away powers from the Provinces. What did the powers which the honorable member had stated were given to Superintendents amount to ? First of all was some provision about a' river overflowing, and then came a very involved statement about districts A B C, and from a portion of the territorial revenue being paid into the Colonial Treasury to a common fund, but it really amounted to nothing. As for tho remarks about the Bill of last session, there was a most radical, difference between the two measures. Tho Bill of last session was one to enable the Provinces to adopt municipal . districts if they desired them ; the present Bill was one to enable the" General Government to introduce them from one end of the country to the other. Mr. Staitokd said that, probably owing to an infirmity, under which he much regretted to see tho honorablo gentleman laboring, the honorable member was in the constant habit of assuming that words which had never been uttered had been used. His words had been any district and not any Province, for he did not recognise the right of any Province to say •whether a district should adopt the Bill or not. ]\£r. Yogel wondered how the honorable member could say the Bill was not one to .weaken the powers of Provincial Governments. The honorable member said it was not one to interfere with provincial revenues, but if so, where wa£ the £2 for

£1 to come' from; If it was to be tak*B9 from the consolidated revenue would there ! not be so much, less available sfor j j>rovincial uses P If the ,Gf^enerial"(s>v;erninent was to impound such an enormous amount of revenue as wouMibe required to give the £2 for £1, there would pro^. bably be no .money left available for the Provinces with which to carry.; put their other functions. The honqrable.men*? ber had spoken of the Bill as one calculatecl to consolidate the powers of the:J?rovin* ces, and had expressed a desire on the part of the Government to do so, =but the, deductions he had commenced with were not borne out by the facts he disclosed. And again, the honorable member had alluded to the struggles between districts which took place in the Provincial Councils. He did not regard those struggles as unseemly, but, on the contrary, as being natural, and. ; as showing the desire of the Provincial Legislatures to deal fairly with the various, districts, and to consider well how the money at its disposal could be best divided. The. so-called ; struggle was a healthy sign, and showed the existence of a real anxiety to deal fairly with; all parts of the Provinces. He really felt sorry for the honorable member at the head of the Government, who had broken- down so completely in Ms speech. Mrst of all, there was a long preamble about public meetings and the press, and then the honorable member began to define the provisions and principles of. the Bill, and ijad said he would give examples as to the effect of road districts coming under the Bill* and the reasons why it was necessary for the Assembly to legislate on the subject. But the only reason he gave was the recent decision of the Court or Appeal. But on seeing him smile at the utterly ridiculous idea of the Bill having been drawn in consequence of a decision not yet thirty-six hours old, the honorable member went on to say that he had known all about the grounds of that decision before it was given. The honorable member should have remembered that the judges differed very much as to the grounds of that decision, and that two of them had given it on technical grounds, which in no way affected the powers or jurisdiction of Provincial Councils. The honorable member had entirely failed to give his many reasons, or, indeed, any others ; and after another interlude of complaints against the newspapers, he went on to say that the Bill would place no larger powers in the hands of the General Government than it already possessed. Then he

attempted to dwell on the powers given to Superintendents, and lie had to dire into the Waimakariri river for an illustration. He had glanced hurriedly through the Bill, and found that it was as different from the Bill of last session as one Bill could be different from another. The

operation of the present Bill would be to entirely supersede Provincial Governments as soon as it obtained any large operation, and the object of the Government seemed to be. to hurry that moment as much as possible. It would certainly be the poorer districts and the poorer Provinces which would first take advantage of the Bill, and how was justice to be done between the Provinces if the consolidated revenue was to be drawn on to assist those poor places with no revenue of their own ? Was the revenue of one Province to be impounded for the benefit of another, and yet were they to be told that there was no infringement of Provincial rights? The power- given to the Governor to proclaim counties of sixty square miles, was simply an attempt to do, in another way, what the Government had already tried to do in regard to the Otago gold fields — to do away with Provincial control and make them depend on the General Government for everything ; to not only deprive the Provinces of their administrative powers, but actually to create bodies antagonistic to them. The Bill of last session was a totally different one. It provided for the Provinces only ■ dealing with and making payments from theirjown revenue, and the

Act was to come in force only in the Provinces desiring it. If the honorable member had been sincere in his professed desire of strengthening the Provinces, he would have followed the Bill of last session in that respect ; but instead of doing so he gave a few, subordinate powers to the Superintendents, while all the major powers were vested in the hands of the General Government. The Bth clause obliged the Superintendent and the general road board, immediately on the formation of a district under the Act, to hand over to the district all provincial property held in trust for that district. Superintendents it seemed were to have the power of sub-dividing districts already formed, but the larger and. more important power of constituting districts was to be m the hands of the Governor, ; and in him also was vested one of the largest powers of the Bill — the power to annex to a district already formed any outlying area. The concluding remarks of the hon. member he could not agree with — a great fallacy ran. through them. It was folly to talk about testing the opinion of districts in the way suggested. If the Government really wished to test public opinion 3 let them dissolve Parliament, and do it in that way ; but every one knew how easy it would be to get ten persons to sign a petition to come under the Act. It could be done in the easiest possible manner, and when once in operation in any" district, it would not leave the rest of the Province in a position to .judge unfettered as to its advantages ; for it had a natural tendency to extend its operations, and districts would have to go on adopting it — thby would be driven in self-defence into adopting it, — until the whole of the revenue now available for Provincial purposes was absorbed. In fact, the whole object and tendency of the Bill was to cut from under the Provincial Governments the powers of usefulness 'they at present possessed. His object in opposing the BUI at that stage was, that he did not wish it to be telegraphed about the country that a Bill had been introduced, which, as stated by the Colonial Secretary, would give extra powers to the Provinces and not affect their revenue, and that this statement had passed unchallenged. In fact the statements made in the first instance by the honorable member himself, as to the effects and scope of the Bill, had most signally failed to be borne out by the facts afterwards disclosed by the hon. member. Mr. Cox hoped that the request for the second reading being postponed to Tuesday would be acceded to by the Government, so as to enable honorable members to study the Bill. At present the honorable member who had just sat down seemed to have a very ggreat advantage over the rest of the House, as he seemed perfectly acquainted with the provisions of the Bill. Either the present Bill must to a great extent be based on the Bill of last session* with which the honorable gentleman was largely connected, or else the Government had taken him into its confidence in' the preparation of the present Bill. He him-' self had a very distinct recollection' of what took place last session in regard to the Bill then introduced.; It was first introduced as a measure to apply to Otago only, and the whole of the Otago men seemed pretty generally agreed as to the principles of the measure required, but he did not think that i<i had been formally agreed v to by the Superintendent and Council of Otago ; or that in respect tp Otago it was specifically declared that it should be only brought into operation at the 'request of the Superintendent and

Provincial "Council. He had asked the honorable member for the Gold Fields, whether the measure might not be made to apply to other Provinces, which were equally anxious to have such a measure passed; and the honorable member agreed that it should be extended to Canter-

bury. Mr. Yogel said the honorable member was referring to certain private negotiations which ]iad. taken place, and which had resulted in its being agreed to extend the Act to any Province desiring it proclaimed hy the Governor. The honorable member should remember that the great principle of that Bill was to give all the powers to the Superintendent, and not to the Governor.

Mr. Cox had asked the honorable member to extend the operation of the Act to Canterbury, and had requested to be allowed to oe present at the discussion of the measure by the self-constituted Otago Committee. 1 The measure finally agreed on by the honorable member and his friends; he took leave to say, was a very fine babyj to which the lion. Major Ri* chardson had stood godfather, but owing to too careful nursing, or to the fact of its being handed over to a superintendental nurse, who would take the precious child into a raw provincial atmosphere, it sickened and died, and he (Mr. Cox) for one mourned over its untimely end. The very fact that the House was called on even to legislate on the subject for Ota^o, proved that some appeal from the Provincial Councils was necessary, or else the House would not and ought not to have "been troubled with a Bill of 400 clauses.

Mr. Tockel said the honorable member was misrepresenting a series of private conversations. The Speaker said that the honorable member was out of order. If he wished to refer to personal matters, he might, by the indulgence of the House, be allowed afterwards to state his recollection of what had taken place, but he could not be. allowed to interrupt the honorable member for Timaru.

Mr. Yogel would content himself with flatly contradicting the statements made by the honorable member. The Speakeb again called the honorable member to order. If his recollection differed from that of the honorable member, he might afterwards endeavour to state Ms impressions. Mr: Cox would not take up the time of the House with any further remarks, but he thought that the Bill was not one calculated to' interfere with the functions of Provincial Legislatures. Mr; Yogel had merely desired to set the honorable member right on some points, and was sorry if he had interrupted the thread of his discourse. Much larger powers were to be. given by the present Bill to the General Government than had been proposed in the previous Bill.

Mr. Dillon Bell felt tlie inconvenience of a discussion on the first reading of a Bill, and only desired to make one observation in addition to urging the request for thepostponement of the second reading. He desired to know, as power was given to districts to levy rates to carry on public works, and to receive a portion of the territorial revenue, whether any provisionhad been madefor districts where the land fund had already been expended at the head-quarters of the Province. If not, he would ask the Government and honorable members to give their attention to the point before they made up their minds regarding the' Bill, It would be a great inmstice to a district— say Omaru, not that he intended to say that that district was a case in point, but merely as an illustration — but it would be most unfair to Oamaru if, now- that most of its land revenue had been spent, some adjoining district was to obtain separation from it, and receive the whole of its own land revenue. It might happen that a district would be seriously injured instead of being relieved, if no provision was made as to the past appropriation of territorial revenue. He desired to record his dissent from the statements.withivhich the honorable gentleman at thei Head of the G-overnment had closed his speech. The form of Government under which we lived was based on certain fundamental compacts, which permeated the whole course of existence here, and they stood there as the representatives of the people who had grown up under those institutions. If it turned out to be the case that the Bill did fundamentally alter the balance of power between the General and Provincial Governments as heretofore existing, and proposed to make anorganic change in the Government under which they lived, then it would not be sufficient to refer the question to the votes of the small districts. An organic change of that kind ought to be submitted to the whole constiftiency of the Colony before the House should consent to its adoption. He hoped honorable gentlemen would accede to the request that honorable members should have a few more days to consider the Bill with that moderation which the Government had. a right to claim at their hands.

Mr. Campbell asked the G-overn-ment, whether they were prepared to lay on the table a return of all the rateable property which would be affected by the Bill. It was utterly impossible to decide whether there should be two pounds to one given for the first five years, and one pound for the next five years, unless such returns were before the House. He must tell the honorable member for Timaru that the Sill differed very much .from that previously introduced by the honorable member for the Grold Fields. That was a retrospective measure. He (Mr. Campbell) then said that he would only support a measure that would give to districts where nearly all tlie land had been sold, a large endowment in land.

Mr. Fitzheebeet said he did not rise to provoke discussion upon the principle of the Bill, but to reply to an observation made by the honorable member for Mataura. "With regard to' t|ie point raised . by that honorable member, he would ask •whether it could be regarded as an objection to the principle of a Bill of that magnitude, that it did not approach every difficult point, and there were very many, and. amongst them, perhaps, the most difficult point that could be raised was that of retrospective account. Was there any 1 reason in that why honorable members, should not lend their aid, for the, good of the country at large, in dealing with so difficult a subject P But that omission was not a justification for opposition to the measure, it was rather for hon. members in such a case $ come in and lend their aid. The only other point on whiejbuhe £B£r. Eitzherberfc) need to remark,. was : in reference to the observation of the honorable member for . the G-old Fields (Mr. Yogel) who proceeded to ex- . plain the Bill at length, and it was really wonderful that in a measure with so many clauses, that by taking it up in his hand and' looking at it merely for the period during which the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government was addressing thLe.HoTise,^he should have made himself afiofwqtea mih, the provisions of the Bill. Jiutifyw&s not-wonderful that the hon, gent tlenifflOLVahpuJd^ under such circumstances, h&fo/6ommi^a a blunder, andpassed the v^^Mgh^sf panegyric on the Bill which :he|sitpba topos£pose, The hon. member ;Csa||^i^fc^|l^^measure were brought ini^^^fe^Sotf : pne or two' distncts, it :|ropSa^WEte»i:io/ others, arid they would

never abandon it. When Charles Lamb, in his inimitable essay, discussed the merits of roast pig, the highest praise he could bestow was, that it was so irresistible that when once tasted it was never forgotten. And he exemplified this attractive quality by relating how, although that viand was forbidden in China, a stye .having accidentally caught fire, the inhabitants burnt there fingers in the endeavour to rescue the tenants. The child's remedy of suction was naturally resorted to by an unsophisticated people, and the pain of the burn was forgotten in the new pleasure created for the palate. And so it came to pass that ever after, incendiarism, of styes became an institution in China. Likewise, then, it appears that if once the districts are permitted the opportunity to bring the Bill into operation, although they may burn their fingers and smart under the pains and penalties of taxation, yet that the remedy of suction, supplied by the contributions in aid to the extent of two to one, out of the revenue, will alleviate the pain, and the exercise of the power of local management will create a new pleasure which will be indulged in throughout the Colony and so become a permanent institution. Surely it was a droll kind of argument for an opponent of a Bill to say that if the districts once took it up they would never abandon it. And so the honorable member for the Gold Fields (Mr. Yogel) proposes to interpose his potent name and influence to checkmate a healthy popular movement. But I warn him that, if the •inhabitants of country districts should really consider some such measure as the one now presented to the House to be essential to their interests, and should really wish for its introduction among them, the tide of popular opinion will overwhelm him in Ms attempt to baulk the districts of their purpose. Mr. Yogel assured the House the purport of what he said was very different from that which the honorable gentleman had attributed to him.

The second reading of the Bill was fixed for Tuesday night.