PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 11, Issue 857, 13 July 1867, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

TUESDAY, JULY 9. The Council met at 3 o'clock. Present, all the members except Messrs, Carlyon and Locke. District Roads Bill. Mr. M'Lean, pursuant to notice, moved — For leave to bring in a Bill to be called the « District Roads Bill." Leave granted; bill read a first time, ordered to be printed, and its second reading made an order of the day for Thursday. Mr. Osmond, pursuant to notice, moved — For leave to bring in a Bill to legalise the establishment of a Toll Gate between Tareha's Bridge and the Town boundary. Leave granted, bill read a first time, ordered to be printed, and its second reading made an order of the day for Wednesday. Papers. Mr. M'Lean laid upon the table the returns (connected with the Hikutoto and Papakura blocks) moved for by Mr. Weston. Thistle Bill. Mr. Wood, in moving the 2nd reading of the Thistle Bill, read a formal communication addressed to himself, signed by 18 residents in the town and suburban district of Havelock, approving of his efforts to obtain for them a workable Thistle Act, and expressing a hope that, with the assistance of the town members, he would succeed in carrying the measure. He also read a resolution passed at a late meeting held at Mohaka, in which the settlers of that district requested their representative, Mr. Dolbel, to give his support to this or a similar measure in Council, desiring that it might become law at as early a date as possible. He trusted that the wishes of the bona fide settlers of those districts would meet with attention from the Council. The principle of the bill had been already discussed, and the present measure was remodelled so as to meet some of the objections urged against the one first submitted, He had included, in order to test the feeling of the Council, three other districts in the schedule — those of Meanee, Papakura, and Clive — but could not speak positively as to the wish of the settlers of those districts. Mr. Dolbel seconded the motion. Major Lambert had no objection to a Thistie bill for those who wanted it, but, looking at this measure, he really could not see that it would effect anything. There was no provision for reaching absentees; [there was no getting at them, and the bill was of no use without. Such a measure was altogether premature. Then the unfortunate individual who had land adjacent to a road or river bed was bound to clear the half of such road or river bed. It would be rank injustice to saddle any settler with such an oxpense — an expense which in equity should be borne by the whole district. Mr. Tanner could not see why settlers who wished it should not have an Act in some shape or other ; but he apprehended the principle of this bill was scarcely what was required. He thought a Thistle Bill should Ibe altogether permissive — that it should not be brought into operation without the consent of three-fourths of the people, owningthree-foufths of the acreage.

Were it otherwise, a few men possessing an acre each might combine against a proprietor of 500 acres and ruin him. A Thistle Bill should be fair to all parties; not one that would place it in the power of any number of people to work injustice to any one holder. He also thought that informations under this Act should be before two justices, not one as proposed. He hoped the consideration of this question would be postponed till next session. This would only be for two or three months, and no harm would be done by such delay. Mr. Tiffen would support the bill ; although in many respects' he thought it worse than the old one. The old bill provided for absentees, and it was permissive — it opened the way for new districts coming under the Act, If they did not reach absentees there was very little use in legislating upon the subject. He had been that aay over some absentee land — belonging to Moses — and there were thistles enough on it to stock the whole of the Meanee flat. Mr. Tanner moved the previous question. Major Lambeet seconded the motion. . Mr. Oemond said that were this amendment carried, the bill would be virtually shelved. Now, although opposed to the bill in its present shape, he did not wish to burke discussion upon it. He would be in favor of a permissive bill— -upon the application of three fourths of the acreage. If that would meet the views of the member for Havelock, he would be prepared to go on with the bill— always provided that it be self-supporting—but not otherwise. Major Lambert again suggested postponement till next session, saying that no harm could take place, and that no good could result from hurrying the measure through. Mr. Wood said that the measure was not being hurried through r— that, unlike government bills, which were brought up at the very last moment, this bill, in a slightly different shape, had been before the public for some three months, and every facility had been given for the venti-' lation of the question. As to reaching absentees, nothing was more desirable than that they should be reached, but in the present state of the law they could not be reached. An alteration in the Non Payment of Rates Act, so as to include expenses of this kind and for fencing, would j be necessary for this purpose, and an Amendment Act, not improbably, would be brought in during the present session of the Assembly. Meanwhile, a claim upon absentees was provided for, to be enforced when such absentees could be got at. The suggestion that the bill should not come into operation without the consent of the owners or occupiers of three fourths of the acreage would simply amount, in most cases, to a denial of jus- 1 tice to the small farmer. Generally speaking it was against adjoining large holders that they wanted redress— against a proprietor, it might be, who in point of acreage could swamp all the rest. An amendment of this nature would simply be to shelve the bill— at least as regarded some districts. He was there as representing the interests of a class of men who were earnestly trying to improve, but who could do nothing on account of the acres of thistles with which they were surrounded, and against the owners of which they earnestly asked for such protection as the Council could aflord. After some further discussion the previous question was put ; but through not understanding the technical effect of this motion, there was considerable confusion in the division that ensued. This took place a second time.; but the Speaker, generously taking all the blame to himself for mis-direction, intimated his intention of again putting the question, or of resigning his seat. This was eventually done, with the following result : — Ayes — (for going on with the bill) Messrs. Irvine, Tiffen, Sutton, Dolbel, Wood, Parsons, Ehodes, M'Lean — 8. Noes — (for shelving it) Messrs. Buchanan, Weston, Ormond, Kennedy, Tanner, Lambert — 6. The question was then put that tho bill be read a second time, with the following result :— - Ayes — Messrs. Tiffen, Irvine, Sutton, Wood, Parsons, Dolbel, M'Lean— 7. Noes — Messrs. Buchanan, Weston, Ormond, Tanner, Kennedy, Lambert, Rhodes— 7. The Speaker gave his casting vote with the ayes ; the bill was accordingly read a second time, and ordered to be committed presently. S7teej> and Seal A mendment Act. On the motion of Mr. Ormond, this bill was read a third time and passed. Estimates, Mr. Oemond laid on the table the estimates of expenditure, and gave notice, for next day, of committee of ways and means, and committee of supply. i • Thistle Bill, The Council then went into committee upon the Thistle Bill. At the outset, Mr. Oemond moved that the Chairman report progress, which was opposed by Mr. Wood on the ground that, the 2nd reading having been passed, and its principle affirmed, the bill could not be shelved in this summary way. In lieu of. the 3rd clause, which provided for the Act coming immediately into operation within certain defined districts, Mr. Oemond then moved the following : — This Act shall come into operation within any district in the province of Hawke's Bay upon requisition addressed to the Superintendent of two-thirds of the residents within such diatriot, who shall be owners or ocoupiers of two-thirds of the land contained within such district, provided that any district sought to bo brought under the operation of this Act shall not contain less than one thousand acres in one blook. And provided further that this Aot shall apply in the cases of the four blooks described in tho schedule hereto, upon the conditions contained in this clause being fulfilled. But that no other district shall be brought under the operation of this Act until they shall be denned by Act of the Provincial Counoil. — This clause, afterconsiderablediscussion, was agreed to. In clause 4, a discussion tookplaco upon the injustice of calling upon any one man to clear the half of any adjacent road or river bed. , Mr. Wood, in deference to the feeling of the Council, moved an amendment which excluded the words " or river bed." An amendment that the words " adjacent half of any road " be also expunged, moved by Major Lambeht, was then carried, although strongly opposed by Mr. Wood. On the question of this amendment a division was taken, with the following result : — Ayes — Messrs. A'Deane, Irvine, Weston, Tanner, Buchanan, Lambert, Rhodes, Ormond, M'Lean. Noes — Messrs. Whitmore, Kennedy, Dolbel, Parsons, Wood, Sutton. In the same clause, the hearing of informations under this Act being by one or more justices, was objected to by Mr. Tanner and other members, on the ground that the responsibility was too great for one justice. Mr. Wood, in deference to expressed opinion, moved that "two" be inserted for " one," although, he said, this would involve a journey to Napier — no two justices residing at or near the locality. The notice, provided for in clause 4, to

be given to any owner or occupier of land, was altered from 21 to 14 days. A new. clause was moved by Mr. Oemond and agreed to — to the effect that the Act, with regard to the four defined districts, would be proclaimed by the Superintendent as coming into operation, immediately upon the condition expressed in clause 3 being complied with. M The clauses having been considered down to the schedules — the consideration of which was deferred — the Chairman reported progress and asked leave to sit again. The Council then (9 p.m.) adjourned till next day. WEDNESDAY, JULY 10. The Council met at 3 o'clock. Present, the Speaker and all the members except Mr. Locke and Mr. Carlyon. Petition. Mr. Buchanan presented a pe&tion from certain residents on the Great North road, settingforth that great inconvenience and unpleasant feeling resulted from certain roads not being laid out, and praying that the matter might be favorably considered. On the motion of Mr. Buchanan, the petition was read and received. Papers. Mr. Oemond laid upon the abstract of receipts and expenditure for the financial year ending 30th June 1867, and other papers connected with the finance of the province. Justices on Great South Road. Mr. Wood, puruant to notice, asked his Honor the Superintendent — Whether his attention had been called to the fact that no Justice of the Peace is resident on, or at a place easily accessible to, the Great South Road —between Napier, on the one hand, and Patangata, Waipukurau, and Ruataniwha on the other ;— and whether his Honor hartnoved the General Government to add one or more names to the Commission of the Peace, with the view of supplying the deficiency. — He said that the Thistle Act, if it became law, would require the presence of a second magistrate to administer it, and there was none within a reasonable distance. Hence he put the question standing in his name. Mr. M'Lean said that the subject had not been considered by the government as one essentially necessary. The country referred to was nearly all native land, and had comparatively few European settlers. The Resident Magistrate (Mr. Cooper) visited Havelock once a fortnight, and there were very few cases indeed for" him to hoar. The government, therefore, saw no particula^irgency in this matter, esI pecially as at the present moment there I were no fewer than 43 justices within the province. ' Audit Committee. Mr. Buchanan brought up a- progress report of this committee, and moved that it Tbe read.— Read accordingly, and an extension of time granted for the final report. Slaughter Sotise Bill, Mr, Oemond obtained leave to bring in a Slaughter House Bill. He said that if the Council approved of the government scheme, and voted the necessary funds for a public slaughter house, it would see the propriety of an Act for the regulation of tho same, the imposition of dues, &c. Leave granted; bill read a first time, and its second reading made an order of the day for Thursday. Ways and Means. Mr. Oemond, pursuant to notice, moved that the Conncil go into committee of ways and means. In committee ho purposed making a statement explanatory of the financial position of the province. Mr. Buchanan objected to this course. The proper parliamentary practice was, first to grant a supply, and then to go into committee to consider . the ways and means. Mr. Oemond expressed a contrary opinion — that the question of ways and means was a necessary preliminary to the consideration of the estimates of expenditure. Mr. Buchanan said that the estimates of revenue had not been in members' hands more than ten minutes. Mr. Oemond said it was matter of indifference in which form the Council went into committee, and would now move that the Council go into committee of supply. Mr. Buchanan said that he had an amendment to move, and then read the following :•— That this Counoil do resolve— 1. That the estimates of expenditure be referred back to the Government, with a view to reduotion of the proposed votes, so as to bring them within the limits set by the finanoial condition of the government. 2. That immediate re-organisation of the provincial service is necessary, 3. That where the interests of individuals are conoerned, the prinoiple by which the action of the Government should be controlled, is, the retention, without reference to grade, of officers having the efficiency requisite for the due discharge of the inoreasad duties reduction of numbers will give rise to. Mr. Tanner seconded the amendment. Mr. M'Lean did not think this was the proper time to bring forward such an amendment. When members were in possession of the statement about to be made by his colleague, it would then be competent to bring forward any resolution. At this stage he submitted it was irregular. Major Lambert objected to estimates being framed for 12 months, seeing that another session was shortly expected to take place. Three months estimates would bo quite enough to pass in the meantime. In the estimates before the Council, no reductions of any consequence had taken place ; but it was evident that such reductions would have to be made, and that the onus of such should lie with the government, not with private members. Mr. Oemond said that some light was intended to be thrown upon this in the statementhe purposed making, if the Council would let nim do it. Mr. Tanner would support the amendment ; which, however, was not intended to be hostile to the government, but rather to save future trouble and unpleasantness. Licut.-Colonel Whitmore hoped the Council would at least hear the financial statement. Mr. Buchanan said that the estimates should first bo remodelled, as the financial statement and the estimates had so closo a relation to each other. Tho amendment was then put, and carried on tho following division : — Ayes, B—Messrs.8 — Messrs. Buchanan, .Tanner, Lambert, Weston, Dolbel, Parsons, Wood, Tiffen. Noes, 7 — Messrs. Irvine, Sutton, Whitmore, Rhodes, Kennedy, M'Lean, Ormond. Mr. M'Lean said that, after the adverse vote that had been come to, the government was not prepared to go on with the business ; and he would ask for an adjournment of tho Council. Mr. Tanner asked whether the government would not go on with the Highways Bill, the Tollgale Bill, and other business that was on the paper. Mr. Oemond said that both .these bills were connected "with finance, and the government would not proceed with them. Mr. Buchanan said they were both re-

venue bills, and tliat the course taken by | the government was the correct one. ! The Council then adjourned. THURSDAY JULY 11. The Council met at 3 o'clock. Present, all the members but Mr. Locke and Mr. Carlyon. / %„ Ministerial Crisis,. ' Mr. M'Lean said that, consequent udon the adverse vote of yesterday, he felt it necessary to move the suspension of standing rule 27, in order that lie might make a statement, and move a resolution for the consideration of the Council. He did so with the view of testing the actual position in which the government stood in relation to the Council. " Mr. Orjio^d seconded the motion, which was agreed to, and the standing order suspended accordingly. Mr. M'Lean said that, in consequence of the resolutions passed yesterday, his colleagues and himself had determined upon a particular course of. action. It would appear from that vote that the government no longer possessed the confidence of the majority of the Council; and, indeed, throughout the entire session, they had been met at every stage by an obstructive course of action. The time, therefore, had come, in their estimation, to test whether or not they really possessed the confidence of the Council. They were quite willing, if they no longer had that confidence, to resign office ; and they would not be sorry to be relieved from the responsibilities and anxieties attending the government of the province. He did feel that the Council and the public were greatly indebted to the gentlemen who, ever since he entered iipon the Superintendency, had been associated with him in the government, and who had ably and zealously aided him, without" any personal advantage from so doing. For himself, he had been connected with the province from. before its commencement, and had been largely instrumental in its colonization by Europeans . He still took a warm interest in its welfare ; but himself and colleagues had quite made up their minds that if they did not meet more cordial co-operation from members, they would resign office. On the other hand, they offered the Council the alternative of rescinding by resolution the amendment passed on the preceding day. If the Council accepted this, they would be prepared to go on; if not, it was not their intention to sit for a single hour. "Were this resolution adopted, he had further to say that, in the interests of the province, he and his colleague (Mr. Ormond) were bound to leave for Wellington next Monday, to take their seats in the General Assembly. It was highly important that they should do so. They would be sacrificing the interests of their constituencies if they lost the opportunity of supporting the financial measure of the General Government-— a measure which would place the liabilities of the provinces upon an entirely new basis. The province was in such a position financially that it would, for himself and colleague, be a dereliction of duty were they to be longer absent from the Assembly. He would also give notice, if the resolution was carried, that it was the intention of the government to withdraw for the present most of the bills now before the Council, and to ask for an Appropriation Act for three months ; before the expiry of which fresh measures would be prepared to lay before the Council. It was evident that the depression which had visited the other provinces had now affected this province also. They thought they saw a way by which to extricate the province from its difficulties. At all events they would do all in their power, and if they failed, the fault would not be theirs. Since he first accepted the Superintendency it had been his constant anxiety to meet its difficulties and promote its prosperity, and he thought he could look back with pride upon the publio career of himself and his colleagues. He was still prepared to go on : but, if the Council so wished it, he would have no objection to be released from the duties and responsibilities of office. He concluded by moving the following resolution : — That this Council resolves that the resolution passed yesterday as an amendment on the motion that the Oounoil do go into committee of supply, is hereby rescinded ; and the Council further expresses its oonfidenoe in the present Government. Mr. Oemond seconded the motion. Mr. Buchanan felt surprised at the extraordinary manner in which the government had received the resolution of the day before. They had more than once told the Council that they were not under responsible government ; now, by their acts, they admitted that they were. It would almost seem, indeed, as if they were anxious to quit their posts when a time of danger arrived, and only wanted a show of an excuse to do so. No doubt they would like to get quit of the responsibilities they had incurred ; but let those .who had brought the province into difficulties, extricate it out of them. Let the province and the colony witness their absurd flounderings in the attempt. No obstruction to the public business had been offered by the Council. He utterly denied the assertion that such was the case : and challenged the gentlemen on the opposite benches to name a single specific act of obstruction. He trusted that none of the members who yesterday voted for the resolution would respond to the appeal " ad misericordiam" that had been made by the government, and rescind their own act. The resolution was not framed with the intention of obtaining an adverse vote ; this was not even thought of. The object Was to assist the government in performing their duty. He did not mean to say that the resolutions were likoly to be at all palatable to the government ; but he hoped they would have the effect of an emetic, and purge members opposite of some of the ill humour they habitually displaj'ed. As to the deep debt of gratitude due to the executive, the occasion would not permit of his reviewing the great things they had done. The Council had been told by His Honor that two members of the executive were under the necessity of quitting the province in a day or two ; Tout the Council had a deliberate pledge from the then chief member of the executive that, whatever the result, His Honor would remain till the business of the Council was over. The Council, upon that condition, consented to a long adjournment. Yet His Honor now intimated his intention of escaping before the business of the session was hardly begun. Why was nothing placed before tlie Council during the first fourteen days it was sitting. The conviction was strong in his mind that the government wished to evade the business — that they had a shrewd suspicion provincial institutions would soon be abolished, and go off in smoke. He trusted no member would, by rescinding the resolution of yesterday, deny the principle laid clown in it — would, under the influence of a threat, say that what was black yesterday was white to day. As to the government resigning, it was a mere sham and a pretence. The member for Porangahau had told the Council what its position was — that of a parochial board. If so, what were the gentlemen opposite but beagles, whose duty it was to do the bidding of the Coun- | cil. As to resigning, the gentlemen oppo-

site couldn't do it — they knew better. They had incurred engagements on behalf of the province which had not yet been assented to by the Council. They must come to the Council for its sanction, or be themselves personally responsible. With regard to the course taken yesterday by that side of the house, he would ask, what else could they do ? Estimates w.ere placed on the table one day, and, contrary, to all precedent, notice of their considera* tion given for the next. Those . estimates were obviously ill-adapted to the circumstances of the province. They wanted revision ; and the Council, in sending them back for revision, meant to aid rather. than embarrass the government.Major Lambeet denied that there was any desire to delay or annoy the government. On the contrary, they wanted to" aid and assist. But'any one could see on the face of the estimates they wanted modification ; and it was not fair thai private members should have the trouble and unpopularity of Ef|f|pg needful reductions. He was yeW sorry to hear the member for Napier (Mr. M'Lean) speak as he did, and accuse the Council of obstructing him throughout the session. He (Major Lambert) quite agreed that the Superintendent had done a great deal for the province ; but because the Superintendent and executive had been good servants, it did not follow that they should be masters — that the Council should become'degraded from itsposition of an independent assembly. When, after a long delay, the estimates were laid on the table, there seemed, all at once, a great desire on the part of the government, to rush the business through. The reason had now transpired — that two members of the government wished to leave the, province. Had the Superintendent been fair, and open in this matter, no doubt the Council would have acquiesced ; but now they attempt to go, as it were, by a side wind. As for rescinding the resolutions arrived at yesterday, that was offering a pill that he could not swallow. The idea that thinking men would one day vote against what they voted for the other — and that, too, under the influence of a threat — was too absurd. But they denied having any intention to annoy or obstruct the government i the resolution was not intended as a vote of want of confidence.* Mr. Tanneb confessed being much astonished at the course taken by the go-vernment-^-at the strong feeHng they had displayed in this matter. His Honor had accused the Council of obstructing the public business — a charge which was unjust and absolutely without foundation. The obstruction was altogether on the other side. The government had put no business before the Council till within the last day or two. The conduct of tlxe government throughout the session had been most inconsistent — at one time repudiating responsibility and sneeringly calling the Council a parochial board; at another, acting as a responsible government and threatening to go out upon an adverse vote. The estimates clearly wanted cutting down ; and the Council suggested, as the best course, that they should be reconsidered, with the view of reductions being made. The government had threatened to leave office ; in what position would they leave the province if they Sid ? (Mr. Rhodes — In a pretty mess.) No doubt they would. But it was not so easy for them to shirk the responsibility they had brought upon themselves. They had incurred engagements, which they themselves would nave to ratify if the Council did not; and there were large sums of unauthorised expenditure, for which no indemnity had been given. As to the resolution, it was not intended as any expression of want of confidence in the government, and he hoped the resolution brought forward to day would be withdrawn. Lieut.-Colonel Whitmoee had never for a moment 'doubted, when he heard read the resolution of yesterday, what the result would be. From what he knew of his friend the Sxiperintendent —of his high-minded character —he knew he would never tolerate such a slap in the face. A vital blow had been aimed at his government, and that blow would naturally be considered by him as if dealt at himself. No one could sit still under so grave an imputation as was implied in the resolution. No other course, under such circumstances, was open to the government than to resign, and he honored them for having done so. Mr. Weld, in the General Assembly, had said precisely the same thing that the Superintendent had said to-day — " rescind your resolution or I resign." He hoped that some of those members who yesterday voted for the resolution would now relieve the province from a very serious difficulty by rescinding it. He saw nothing degrading in their so doing. They said that no want of confidence was intended to be expressed ; if so, why should they hesitate at annulling it. Mr. Wood said that, as one of the members who yesterday voted for the resolution, he did so without any idea that the resolution implied a want of confidence in the government. He himself was a supporter but he was not a mere follower of the government ; and he could not shut his eyes to the fact that the estimates were not what they ought to be under the changed circumstances of the province. He thought that the estimates snoiild be revised by the government, and that, so far as he was concerned, was the full effect of the resolution. He scarcely knew what the wording of it was, but that was the meaning he attached to it. He regretted much that the government had viewed it in so serious a light, and he could not help 1 thinking they were straining a point. . If, however, he had been instrumental in bringing about a crisis, he was willing to assist the government to^go on with the public business, but certainly not in the Avay proposed by them, which was anything but a judicious course. No man could be expected deliberately to unsay to-day what he said yesterday, and the government should accept the statement that no want of confidence was intended. The difficulty was one that should be met by a compromise, and he would move as an amendment — ■=?•'-' That this Council, in its resolution of yesterday, had no intention of expressing any waut of confidence in the government. Mr. Rhodes said that surprise had been very generally expressed at the action taken by the government. The surprise would rather have been if they for a moment could have acted otherwise. The resolutions were offensive to the last degree." The government saw in a moment what was meant by them, ' but some who voted for them had evidently been drawn into a snare. He presumed that those members who had taken this mischievous action — mischievous in the extreme — were prepared to carry on the government. As to sajdng that the government could not resign, that was sheer nonsense. They could resign when they pleased, and were quite prepared to do it. They had been attacked throughout in a way that was most unwarrantable ; they had been called the servants of the Council, told that they would be better of being taught a lesson, and generally, treated every day to the most xinbeconiing language. As to the time that had been lost, did not the opposition waste a week over the reply to the Superintendent's speech, and which, after all, came to nothing. Mr. Rhodes, after some further remarks, concluded by saying that the

.government wonlcl have the resolution re" / soihded o* ..would -'resign. They would not accept' the amendment or any other middle course.? ';. i At the conclusion of this speech, Messrs. Parsons, Dolbel, and Wood, left the Ooun- ; cil Chamber in a body. . |"We are indebted to the courtesy of . the reporter to our contemporary for the following continuation of this day's proceedings,] Mr. BucHAiftur said that as the member for CJftve Had been allowed to discuss the original question, instead of the amendment before the" house, he should claim j .the same liberty. M£ Rhodes said that if this leave was granted, he Should also claim the right of speaking three or four times on every question. Mr» Tankee again disclaimed any intention on his side of the house of obstructing ike Government. The annexation question was not raised with that view- There was nothing for the Counoil to do, and if something had not been brought before members Td;i|Eeir amusement, they would all have gone to sleep* The member for Cli ve had spoken of the young members falling into the traps set for them by the old and wily ones. Perhaps that member would say that the young :members did not understand plain English. The resolution simply requested the government to re-consider the estimates with a view to their reduction, and to re-organize the provincial service. Nothing was further from their intention than that the government should leave their seats, and give place to a new one. He thought the government should be perfectly satisfied with the explanations which had been made, and that the only constitutional course for them would be to withdraw their resolutions. . , Mr. Tiiten; moved the previous question. Lieut.-Gol. /Whitmobe seconded the motion. . Mr. Osmond said that if the previous question was affirmed, the effect would be the same as if the government's resolutions were negatived, and the resignation Iftof the government would instantly follow. %A. good deal had been said by the other side about the position the government hadtaken, ; it had been said that those who brought the resolutions forward did not intend them to be construed into a vote of no confidence." The government were not bound to accept this explanation, — they took it for what they considered it was worth.' If those gentlemen had not this intention, they had confessed a most absolute ignorance of what constituted a want of confidence resolution. No government with any principles of honor would stand - such a ftipiough slap in^he face as their estimatesbeingreturned,Tivithoutresigning. They had been accused of taking refuge in the fact of their not being a responsible government. This had been when ministerial questions had come before the Council, but when resolutions like those of yesterday were passed, it became a question of self-respect. This was probably the last time the Council would be addressed by the present government, and they must admit that' great financial difficulties remained to be overcome. The treatment to Which the government had been subjected this session was more than ordinary men could.be expected to stand. They had been plainly accused of underhand and corrupt proceedings, and if members thought they would continue to stand as a kind of Aunt Sally for the Council, they would find their mistake. The position they took was this : They would have yesterday's resolutions rescinded, and an absolute resolution of confidence passed, "before they would proceed with the business, of the session. Anything short of this they would not accept, and they considered they were taking the only honour- . able course open to them. Ii the administration, of the affairs of the Province was to change hands, those who took it would find it a task of great difficulty. He and his colleagues believed that by their management they could bring the Province out of these difficulties, and if they had been allowed to make their statement yesterday they would have shown how this was to be done, but they did not be- , lieve the gentlemen opposite could do the same thing. The course taken by the opposition— thatof condemning thegovernment estimates before any financial statement had been made, was altogether unprecedented, and this the member for the country districts must be quite aware of. He haa taken amost unwarrantable course, and had drawn less ingenious members than himself into it. The government had now plainly and distinctly taken their stand, and the Council knew what would follow on the result of their vote. Mr. Xexnedy considered tJ;hat under the circumstances that, had taken place yesterday the government were bound to resign. The Council had returned the estimates because they considered the amount of expenditure was too large,* but had not", stated in what particulars they wished them reduced. -_^<%y Mr. Buchanan said f^Kat he supposed the same reliance might; he .placea upon the statements of the member for Porangahau as upon hia figures, "which stated that there was a large amount to our credit at the Bank. He had no doubt , there was some trick of book-keeping in . this, but it would be on the principle of robbing Peter to pay Paul, and he could not but admire the ingenuity with which these accounts were always constructed. The government did not deny that they were deeply in debt, but pid that the money had been spent iif 'reproductive lands — he supposed in the bogs of Pukahu, or in that great investment, land in the Province of Auckland, the value of which per acre was represented by the smallest coin in the realm. The documents before the Audit committee, of which he was a member, furnished abundant materials to show the loose manner in which land purchases had been conducted. The whole process was corrupt. The government seemed to think that because they had borrowed £30,000 they might make ducks and drakes of it, or spend it upon certain gentlemen who were their especial pets. He could plegfoe himself to prove when the report of tliirAudit committee came up, then this- was the way in which the greater part of these disbursements had been made. . Lieut.-Colonel Whitmoee said that in secondingtheprevious question he hadbeen in error. He imagined when he seconded the motion that the question previously before the house would be substituted for the amendment, and that the effect would be to set aside the amendment of the member for Havelock, and revert to the considera-. tion of the government's resolution. Major Lambert said that in this matter he was much surprised at, and deeply regretted the tone taken by the government. Mr. M'Lean : What has been the tone on that side -of the house ? Major Lambebt would take that into his serious consideration. He reiterated that there was no intention on his part to express a want of; confidence in the government. The idea of referring the estimates back originatedwith himself, and not with the member for the country districts as supposed by the government. The com-mittee-to which he belonged- had this '.; year's i-iapd last year's estimates before \i^%emf^d=i66^Bidpveithat sufficient allow- . '^Mi^fs^< : Molh^' : t^d.e for the financial :>BOSiti^W6f the Irovince, and he suggested 4?i^^f^e^est?cpiirse would be to refer the

estimates back to the government for reconsideration and general reduction. IN T ot one member who supported those resolutions had the remotest idea of insulting or offending tlio government. He could not account for the statement of the member for CMre that his side had wasted the time of the house, except that it was intended to irritate the other side. For ten or twelve days they had sat only an hour a day, simply because the government had no business to lay before them. He was grieved to notice the personal remarks made by some of the members, who seemed unable to rise and spe*ak without personal and offensive remarks, and those.members were not all on his side of the house. If what had been said by the member for Porangahau was true, that this Province had drifted so far on the rocks that there were only four men in the Council who could save it, it must be in a very desperate condition. They hadheard much of the honor and high feeling of the government, but he did not think it was all on their side of the house. The question was then put and negatived!,, all the members voting for the noes. After a considerable pause, a division was called for by Mr. M'Lean. Mr. Buchanan objected. The Speaker had already given his decision, and the government had allowed their opportunity to pass. If they could call for a division after such a lapse of time as had occurred, he could claim twenty-four hours before calling for a division. The Speaker ordered the division, Mr. Buchanan said that the Speaker's decision was unfair. He protested against a division. [He then . attempted to leave the Chamber, but was prevented by the Speaker.] The house divided with the following result: — Ayes, 7 — Messrs. M'Lean, Ormond, Rhodes, Kennedy, Irvine, Sutton, Whitmore. Noes (under protest), 5 — Messrs Buchanan, weston, Tiffen, Lambert, Tanner. The motion was then affirmed. l Mr. M'Lean's resolutions were then put and carried. Provincial Hospital. Major Lambebt, pursuant to notice, moved — • That the Government inform the Counoil what steps (if any) have been taken to cause patients who are received into the Hospital, or their friends, to contribute towards their maintenance if they are in a position so to do. -Mr. M'Lean said that the subject was under the consideration of the government. It was desirable that friends of persons in the hospital should contribute towards their support. Hemiiers 1 Licenses, Major Lambeet, pursuant to notice.* moved — That his Honor the Superintendent will inform the Counoil whether the Government have in contemplation to oause hawkers to take out a license. His Honor said that the subject was one which might be taken up by the member himself at the next meeting of the Council ; in which he would have the assistance of government. Point of Order, Mr. Buchanan said that the decision just given by the Speaker in reference to the late division was incorrect. The members of the government had all distinctly given their voices with the noes, and could not, after that, vote differently. He read an extract from May's Practice of Parliament, containing a precedent. Mr. Ehodes supposed that the Council was to hear another frivolous discussion. Mr. Buchanan said he might be allowed to retain his own opinion as to whether the subject was a frivolous one or not. The Speaker said that as this was a subject of great importance, he would defer Ms decision till to-morrow. Dog Nuisance Bill, Mr. Tanner brought in a dog nuisance bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be printed. He gave notice that he would move for the second reading to take place on Tuesday. Sheep Branding Bill. Mr. Tanner, with the leave of the Council, brought up a sheep branding bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be printed.. He gave notice of motion for the second reading on Tuesday. Wairoa Harbour Regulations, Lieut.-Colonel Whitmore obtained leave to defer till Friday the report of the committee appointed to consider the subject. : ' v Waita Bridge, Mr. Rhodes, by the authority of Mr. Dolbel, postponed his motion till Friday. Fencing Act, Major Lambert applied for leave to defer the report of the committee on the Fencing Act. Leave granted. Ajjpropriatio-n, Mr. Ormond moved the suspension of one of the standing orders, to bring in an Appropriation Act. In the Assembly there were important questions to be decided with reference to iProvincial Loans, and it was necessary that the representatives of this Province should be there. He took this course as the only means to get the Appropriation Act through the Council before they went on Monday. Mr. Buchanan said that it was highly irregular for an Appropriation Act to be brought forward before any supplies had been voted. It was quite unprecedented, and he thought the gentlemen opposite thought the Council a parcel of children. He appealed to the Speaker to state whether the action was not irregular. The Speaker could see nothing in the standing rules and orders to prevent the action proposed. * A long discussion ensued, which ended in Miv Buchanan saying he possessed the power to prevent the two members of the House of Representatives leaving on Monday, and he would make use of that power by dividing the house on every shilling of the estimates. The motion was then put and agreed to, and the bill was brought in, read a first time, and ordered to be printed. Cemeteries Bill, Mr. Tiffen obtained leave to defer the second reading of this bill, as it had not been printed. On the motion of Mr. M'Lean, the Council adjourned till Friday. Yesterday, the Council, after a few formal motions were disposed of, went into committee of supply, when Mr. Oemond made a lengthened and ' lucid financial statement. The estimates, prepared for four months, were then gone into. At first, Mr. Buchanan carried out his threat of dividing upon every item ; but, afterwards, the business went, on, and the estimates were nearly all passed. The Council sits at noon to-day, when the Appropriation Bill will be passed, and such other business concluded as can be overtaken before evening. Several matters willhave to stand over till next adjourned sitting.