PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 7, Issue 459, 27 January 1864, Page 1

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Thursday, January 21, (Proceedings of this day continued from our last.) Fencing Ordinance. Me. Tiffen movetf^'that the Government be requested to prepare and get ready, previous to next sitting of the Council, an Amended Fencing Ordinance adapted to this province." It was universally acknowledged, he said, that such an Act was required. The reason he asked that it should be prepared before next sittiug, was in order that some time might be afforded during the recess for consideration of its clauses. Mr. Tuke seconded the motion, which, was agreed to without discussion. Meanee Drainage Act. Mr. Tiffen, pursuant to notice, asked the Superintendent whether it was the intention of the Government to prepare a " Meanee Drainge Act " previous to next sitting of Council. The Superintendent said that such was the intention of the Government. Roads Act. Mr. Tiffen, pursuant to notice moved " that the Government be requested to prepare and get ready a " Roads Act " previous to next meeting of the Council. Mr. Colenso seconded the motion, which was agreed to. Defence Force at Te Waipukurau. Mr. Colenso, pursuant to notice, moved — " That this Council be informed (as far as consistent with military movements) why a portion of the Colonial Defence Force was removed to Te Waipukurau 1 And particularly why two stockades have been erected there so near each other." He said that, although he put this question, he had no desire to press it if reasons connected with military movements or strategy precluded the Government from giving the necessary information. While in Auckland, the state of Hawke'sßay being such as to give rise to a lookout for news from that Province, they heard of the erection of a stockade at Mohaka — an eruption being feared from the Northern natives. This he could perfectly understand, and on this point he was quite prepared to satisfy inquirers. But the erection of a stockade at Waipukurau he could not understand, more especially when he found that two stockades were to be erected almost within hail of each other, and that stable accommodation was provided for no less than thirty horses. Why, no such thing as stable accommodation had been provided for the force in Auckland — some 800 men ; indeed the horses were chiefly native horses, which had never seen a stable. But, certainly, as Waipukurau was to be the future capital of the province, it had a right to be highly favored. He only hoped that some of the land-holders in that neighborhood would be patriotic enough to return some of their land for public purposes. With regard to its position in the event of war, he could not see how, in the event of war, the natives were to get there, and what was wanted with a troop of horse and two stockades he was at a total loss to comprehend. He trusted the Government would give the necessary information, if it could be given. The Superintendent had no hesitation in giving all the information on this subject he could afford. At the time when disturbances in the province were thought not improbable, an application was made to the military authorities to decide upon suitable positions for purposes of defence ; in reply to which, instructions were seat from Auckland to the local military authorities, that such should be done. The Provincial Government had nothing to do with it, and had abstained from all interference. He believed that a plan for the defence of the province had been drawn out by the officer commanding the civil forces, with whom was associated Major Dpuglas. That plan had been submitted to General Cameron aud approved of. without reference to the Provincial Government, and without that Government desiring to have a voice in the matter. Its duty was simply to afford everj- facility for carrying out the wishes of the military authorities in the way of erecting stockades &o. — upon being first informed by them where they were to be placed. One was at Petane, one at Mohaka, oue for another part of the northern frontier; in fact all preparations had been made to carry out a general plan of defenoe ; and all would be paid for by the General Government. Impounding Ordinanoe. Mr. Tiffen moved " that the Superintendent be requested to proclaim the Impounding Ordinance to be in operation over that part of the province lying south of the river Esk." — He understood that a requisition to this effeot had been signed by a large number of residents in the district. He believed that some obstacle stood in the way ; probably Iho Superintendent would afford the Council definite information. Mr. CuBLING seconded the motion. The Superintendent said that the Government had, as the .member for TeAute stated, been requested to bring tbisTJrdmance into operation ; but on looking over the Act he found that a newone might be introduced that would better meet the requirements of the class most interested. Under the Ordinance several small holders might he compelled to fence under circumstances that they would probably think oppressive. An Amended Act, which it was hoped, would better

meet the views of the settlers generally, would probably be prepared. Public Correspondence. Mr. Colenso moved that so much of the public correspondence between His Honor the Superintendent of this province and the General Government (printed in papers A No. 2 and B No. 5 of the General Assembly) as relates to Hawke's Bay and to this Provincial Council, be taken into consideration. Mr. Colenso said that, if he had not met the opposition he did upon the motion for reconstruction of the Executive, he would probably not have brought forward this motion. The papers would shew that there was great room for better management and attention on the part of the Superintendent and Executive ; the want of which was also seen every day in the Council, in the incessant motions for suspending the standing rules. Such suspension should be the exception — not the rule ; in Napier it seemed to be the contrary. Should the motion pass he would lay the correspondence on the table ; and he trusted the Government would not oppose it. The Superintendent.— What do the papers refer to ? Mr. Colenso. — The Loan and other Acts passed during last session by the Proviucial Council. Mr. Tiffex had no idea what the papers related to, but if they had anything to do wich the Provincial Council by all means let them be produced. Mr. Ormond said that, although the government did not understand the object in view, they had no objection to the motion beyond the fact that several members were anxious to get back to their homes, and, in the view of another session shortly, they wished to avoid as much as possible subjects that would give rise to lengthy discussions. Mr. Colenso said that the letters in question were short ones — six or eight in number, and but little time would be required for their consideration. The Council was deeply concerned in them, as its own honor was affected. It was in consequence, partly, of having read these while in Auckland that he brought forward his motion for a reconstruction of the Executive. He could not agree to postpone the motion till next session ; but if the government did not wish the subject entered into they could vote against the motion. The question having been put and affirmed, — Mr. Colenso moved that the Council go into committee of the whole. Mr. Ormond had no wish to oppose the motion, but he would first like to hear a statement of what it was all about. Mr. Colenso said that, during last session of the Provincial Council, six Acts were passed, three of them old ones renewed and three of them new — all common Acts ; nothing in them. to prevent the lowest amount of intelligence gettiug them up creditably. Well, he found from this correspondence between the Superintendent and the General Government that the whole of these Acts were more or less found fault with. One, although prepared by the Provincial Law Adviser and brought in by the Government, was returned with the remark that ifc was " Directly contrary to law." In another letter, the Colonial Secretary observed that, with reference generally to these Acts, in some cases the words "by and with the consent " were used in the enacting clauses instead of " by and with the advice and consent," the form prescribed by the Constitution Act. And, with reference to the Marine Boards Act, the same gentleman writes: " the three last clauses are all surplusage " — in other words " bosh." Now, it was entirely through suspending the standing rules and orders with the view of rushing measures through the Council, that these unseemly rebukes were drawn down — rebukes which, with other papers, were laid on the table of the House of Representatives, and which made the member for Napier blush to read them. Hence the action taken the day before to prevent the suspension of the standing rules, seeing that, if members on his side the house remained, the government was strong enough to carry the motion for their suspension. Hence also his motion for a reconstruction of the Executive, for it was quits obvious from the papers before them that the government wanted both head and brains. The Superintendent said that the remarks that had been made seemed to him to be based upon a very slender foundation. Six Acts, it appeared, had been passed by the Council during last session, all of which, but one, had been assented to by the Governor. That one was wholly unimportant — an Act providing for the deviation of Thompson and Milton roads. All the rest had become law, which was perhaps the best proof that they were not drawn so carelessly as the member for Napier would have the Council believe. In the case of other provinces, several bills had been returned, null though some informality. And although, in returning the Marine Boards Act, some of its clauses were described as surplusage, this province was surely better off than that of Otago, the Marine Boards Act of which was refused assent. He believed that the gentlemen by whom these bills had been drawn up was as capable as any man in New Zealand. He (Mr. McLean) was sorry to see the time of the Council wasted in animadversion upon matters i which were really of so frivolous a character. Wandering from the Subject. Mr. Colenso, pursuant to notice, moved — "That, in order that members may clearly know what is called " Wandering from the subject," and also to prevent unpleasant interference and

unseemly disputation, this Council do resolve itself into a committee of the whole Council, to consider and determine what matter should be held to be so extraneous to a member's speech as to empower the speaker to interrupt him at pleasure while addressing the Council." He would not, so long as the Speaker was in the chair, say much upon this motion. He had but two remarks to make and two only. While he considered that, in calling him to order as if he were wandering from the subject, the Speaker was anything but correct, he felt assured that, in his decisions, the Speaker was not actuated by political bias. He (Mr. Colenso) attributed the interference to which he alluded to a refined, sensitive, gentlemanly feeling — prompting him (the Speaker) to do his duty impartially. Such interference, at the same time, might be fatal to freedom of speech in that Council. After a pause, Mr. Bousfield, on being applied •to by the mover, expressed his willingness to second the motion. Mr. Tiffen felt bound at once to oppose the motion. It was due to the Speaker that he should •be upheld by the Council in every particular. If there was any error on the Speaker's part, it simply arose from a desire to do his duty impartially. He hoped, therefore, the subject would be dropped by the motion being negatived. The Superintendent quite agreed with the member for Te Aute. He thought it much better that the Council should avoid any expression of opinion upon the point that had arisen. No one else getting up, and the Speaker being -about to put the question, — Mr. Colenso, seeing that the motion was about to be put and likely to be negatived, would add a little to what he had said before. He much wished that the Council would go in to the merits of the case, for it was not his case but that of the whole Council— -one that deeply affected its privileges. Seeing, however, that the Council had not acted upon his suggestion of going into committee, and, consequently, that the Speaker still occupied the chair, he was precluded from saying much upon the subject. He would first say that, while giving every credit to the Speaker for purity of motive, the course pursued by him was calculated to be fatal to that for which their forefathers had fought and bled — freedom of speech. In the House of Representatives it was nothing uncommon to hear a speech of two hours, during which all parts of the world were travelled to for matter ; and he did not remember a single case of a member having been stopped for irrelevant remarks. [Mr. Colenso here quoted from May's Practice of Parliament, page 255, which touched on the subject of members' introducing extraneous matter, and said that they might be interrupted by cries of " question" from the House, but did not say that the Speaker was called upon to interfere.] He (Mr. Colenso) foresaw much evil from what had occurred. But, for himself, if he were again interfered with, he would assuredly stand upon his rights ; and let no member attempt to shut him up so long as he was impregnably entrenched behind the standing rules and orders of the Council. The question was then put and negatived by the voices. Alteration in Standing Rules. Mr. Obmond, pursuant to notice, moved that in rule 133, which provided that the standing rules could not be suspended unless eleven members were present, the word eight be substituted for eleven. He had given notice of this motion, in the belief that members opposite had factiously and unnecessarily detained country members from their homes, and to prevent a repetition of such a state of things. He was aware that such a rule, as it stood on the book, was desirable ; he was one of the committee who prepared the alterations, of which this was one ; but he did so never believing that the Council would be put in such a position — one that was neither creditable to members opposite nor calculated to raise the character of the Council. He did not wish to press the motion ; but would simply ask members who thought fit to adopt this course to say that in so doing they had no desire to impede the business of the Council.

Mr. Smith seconded the motion.

Mr. Colenso said that, yesterday afternoon, having heard of this notice having been given, he cailed upon the mover, and, from a feeling of kindness, advised him to withdraw it —

Mr. Oemond disclaimed having ever seen him on the subject.

Mr. Colenso (in continuation) said that, nevertheless, he had — having gone to see the member for Porangahau with no other object ; aud that member having said in reply, — " Pretty fellows you," and declined to withdraw his notice. But he (Mr. Colenso) would now, especially after the ungenerous treatment he had received, oppose the withdrawal of the motion, and let it staud or fall upon its merits. He held that, iv some measure, they should be guided by the rules of the House of Representatives ; and one of these rules was that no alteration could be made in the standing orders without notice extending over four days — another that no suspension could take place unless two-thirds of the members Avere present. Iv the rules of the Council, the number of members necessary for their suspension •was originally eight, but, upon the enlargement, it was altered to eleven— just two-thirds of the whole — the member for Porangahau, as he had just said, assisting in the alteration. The tendency of the action taken by himself and the other members who withdrew was to maintain the standing orders in their integrity, whereas the Government wanted to break them.

Mr. Edwards thought this motion entirely uncalled for. What was done by himself and other members was entirely iv order, and, so far as he was concerned, without any feeling of opposition. He wanted to see the standing rules and orders abided by. The opposition, so called, ■was clearly in the right ; the uovermnent in the .wrong. _

Mr. Bousfield never heard of such a resolution ; it clearly and couviueingly proved that the Government was at its last gasp. The very tools they had sharpened to cut the opposition had cut themselves. He would certainly vote against the resolution. -

Mr, Fitzgebald said that if this motion was allowed to pass the minority would be rendered powerless ; and the Government be able to do

just what they pleased. The principle was a bad one, and he would vote against the resolution.

Mr. Tuke said that as the course so much objected to was not likely to be repeated, he would suggest the withdrawal of the resolution. —

Mr. Colenso. — No ; we will not allow it. Mr. Ormond said that he cared nothing about the resolution. The notice had been given by him at a moment when he was greatly irritated, under the belief that the intention of members opposite was to punish him by keeping him another day in town. How far some of those members were so actuated he could not say ; but the remark had been previously made to him, " Oh, we'll show you what we can do ;" and every member had not given such fair reasons for his conduct as the memberfor Napier (Mr. Edwards) He cared nothing for the resolution, which indeed was rather against his former course of action, and if it was pressed to a division he would withdraw. The question having been put, the Superintendent and Mr. Ormond withdrew, and upon a division all the members present were among the "Noes." Loan Amendment Act. The Superintendent, pursuant to notice, moved that the "Loan Amendment Act" be read a second time. Mr. Smith seconded the motion. After a pause, followed by the Speaker rising to put the question, — Mr. Colenso was sorry to have again occasion to speak upon the subject of the Hawke's Bay loan ; he had really thought when the original Act passed that he was done with it. It had now, however, come before the Council in a new shape, although the principle involved was not altered. The Council had been told by the Superintendent in the third paragraph of his opening address that, the Act having received the Governor's assent, he was enabled to conclude negociations, <fee. Now, did the Superintendent really wish the Council to believe that the Loan Act had been unalterably assented to by the Governor? He (Mr. Colenso) could tell His Honor that the assent was not worth a straw ; and that, if he proceeded with the negociation, he made himself personally liable. What did the Colonial Secretary say when he returned the Act to the Superintendent? He said [we copy from our notes]. — With reference to the Hawke's Bay Loan Act he had to remark that His Excellency the Governor had been advised to assent to it on the understanding that the land referred to in the resolution of the Provincial Council should be made available by law during the next session of the General Assembly as collateral security for the payment of principal and interest, and that, in the meantime, all sums received for the sale of any portion of such land should be retained in the hands of the General Government. That was his first objection, which, both as a member of the General Assembly and of this Council, he felt it his duty to advance, and this, even if there was no other objection, must be regarded as fatal. He had now to call attention to another matter in connection with this bill. On the 27th March 1563, His Honor the Superintendent wrote a letter to the General Government, and a precious document it was. Having previously carefully counted noses, he wrote thus : — I have the honor to acquaint you that I shall shortly have a Loan Bill passed. Now the Superintendent bad no right whatever to use such terms ; they were an insult to the Council ; and could only have been employed on the supposition that he had so many dolts to deal with. There was many a slip, however, between the cup and the lip. They had heard of many despotic acts on the part of the Superintendent of Wellington, but did Dr. Featherston ever so far ignore his Council as to say that he would shortly have a bill passed ? Then on the Ist of April following a letter came down from Mr. Reader Wood, the Colonial Treasurer, requesting, with reference to the projected loan, that the government would forward a statement in detail of the financial position of the province, and requiring information as to what guarantees they were prepared to offer for the due payment of principal and interest. The Superintendent sent up a statement shewing that a large sum (£12,000 we understood) was in the chest and that the revenue for the financial year was likely to be some ' £27,000— shewing the total assets to be £39,878. Total assets, it said, and yet a note was appended J •to the effect that the statement of assets did not include lands not alienated. Thus stating one thing on the one hand, and another on the other. In Auckland the question had been put to him, Is it true that you have £12,000 in the chest and a revenue of some £27,000? What on earth, then, do you want for a loan 1 There was another thing to which he would draw the attention of the government. He had before him a petition, purporting to be from the settlers of Hawke's Bay, one, of the signatures to which was that of the member for Waipukurau, also a member of the Executive. Among other things, the petitioners complained of the grossest mismanagement in the Provincial government, and the absence of the most ordinary rules of financial administration. Had the public seen an3'thing in the acts of the present government to shew that they knew anything at all of the rules of financial administration? The same petitioners said that the land fund was nearly exhausted, and that, whatever might be asserted to the contrary, the only revenue to be depended upon in future was that to arise from sales of ss. laud. Well, strange enough, 1860 passed away— lß6l, 1862, 1863— during all of which land sales were going on and a considerable laud revenue coming in, yet in 1864 the member he had referred to was one of a government to agree to a portion of what remained being set aside as security for £60,000 ! That member little knew how much he had been laughed at for signing that petition—the siguatures to which, he (Mr. Colenso) wad happy to say, included the names of only two old settlers. With regard to the loan being a reproductive one, if any dependence was to be placed on the estimate of assets and liabilities forwarded by His Honor — and he (Mr. Colenso) believed it to be pretty correct — it was the universal opinion that there was no occasion for a loan unless it could be proved to be reproductive. No man, surely, would wish to borrow if he had already more money than he knew what to do with. He was not against a loan in the abstract ; but the subject required to be well considered—just as much

so as would a similar transaction amongst commercial men. He was a strong advocate for loans of the reproducfciveness of which there could be no doubt — such for instance as the Lyttelton and Ohristchuroh railway. In this case, which he had been called upon to consider in the General Assembly, statements had been produced which proved, beyond doubt, the reproductiveness of the proposed work ; and it was only on that account that it was sanctioned. The £30,000,— that part of the loan intended for the purchase of native lands — would no doubt be reproductive if it could at once be invested in the purchase of good land fit for agriculture. But what chance was there of that ? The Superintendent had already told the Council that he could not buy ; and they all knew there was no probability of his being able to do so for some time to come— yet all the while interest would be accumulating. For his part he thought it much better that, under the Native Lands Act, private persons should be permitted to buy from the natives direct — paying a tax on the same to the government — than that funds should be raised upon the chance of the government competing successfully with capitalists. He feared, however, that the Superintendent would, from old associations, have a strong bias in a contrary direction. If the Government must borrow, let it do so on the principle that had received the sanction of the House of Representatives — that of borrowing upon the security of a block of land, the money to be spent on that particular piece of land. Let it take the Mohaka block, for example, and, with the concurrence of the settlers, borrow money for expenditure in that locality, and give the land as security. Several discussions on this point took place in the House of Representatives — it being remarked that, but for some restriction, money might be borrowed upon land at the East Cape for expenditure at Taranaki, and upon Titnaru for the benefit of Kaiapoi. It was the old story of the harsh stepmother Wellington, which the House set its face against. His last objection to the bill was that the schedule remained part and parcel of the bill, and the money was evidently intended to be expended accordingly. According to the schedule, £12000 of the loan would be for immigration purposes. But so long as there was no land for location, it was the veriest bosh ever spoken to talk of advancing money for immigration. Without land the immigrants would leave the province as fast as they came to it, unless indeed, it was intended to confine them like a chicken in a coop by means of an Algerine Act. He would decidedly vote against the bill. Mr. Edwards was not previously aware of the letter from the Colonial Secretary to which his colleague had alluded. He apprehended that as the condition named in that letter had not been complied with, they could not have the loan. Mr. Bousfield said that the subject had been so ably treated, it was unnecessary for him to say more than that he would vote against the bill. Mr. Rhodes had paid attention to the speech of the member for Napier, which had taken up nearly an hour ; as well as to that of the last member who spoke, whose speech, on the contrary, was short and sweet ; but he had heard no argument except that which bore upon the validity of the Governor's assent to the first bill. And he believed that this, like all the other objections of the member for Napier, went for nothing. That member asked, for example, if any man would borrow money when he had already more than he knew what to do with. He (Mr. Ehodes) had never seen a man who had more money than he knew what to do with ; but, without being particularly in want of money, he, for one, would be very happy to borrow sixty thousand pounds. The proposed loan he believed to be the only thing likely to raise Hawke's Bay to its proper position in the colony — to raise it from a seventh rate province to a second or third. They had been told some ten or twelve times over that the loan was unproductive. The items, he found, were £30,000 for land purchases ; £12,000 for immigrants to put upon the land, when obtained ; and £10,000 for roads to connect such land with a market. The whole loan was for one purpose — that of colonization ; and he would venture to say that if the government happened to obtain a block of good agricultural land, the money could be repaid in five years. Members opposite were well aware also that the Government had yet to come down with an Appropriation Act — that before any authorised expenditure of any part of this money could take place, the items would have to be reconsidered and sanctioned by the Council. The money was not going to be squandered — at least if it was, it would be the fault of members themselves. The member for Napier had said in , effect that the province was so rich it didn't want a loan (Mr. Colbnso, — No) — unless it were reproductive. Possibly, under ordinary circumstances, the province might not require to borrow, but supposing that the natives, immediately after the close of the war, wanted to sell large quantities of land — where, in the event of this bill being thrown over, was the money to be found 1 It was quite possible — quite probable — that the moment the natives acknowledged themselves beaten (Mr. Colbnso, Aye) — and that they would be beaten there could be no shadow of doubt — they would want to sell. Objection had been taken to the expense of borrowing money, and then letting it lie without using it ; but the papers on the table shewed that the bank would allow the same interest as the province paid. The money would thus be lying perdu, ready to the hands of the government at any moment. Should the natives sell — it might be three days, it might be three years hence — the money would be ready. Were the* bill rejected, the government, in such event, would not know where to raise the money. The province might gain greatly by the loan, and it could not lose by it; a better book than this could not be made. He would certainly *vote for the bill.

• Mr. Tifpen said that, in the discussion which took place upon the original Act, there was an understanding between himself and some other members, on the one hand, and the government on the other, that the money should be applied r.s far as could be to the introduction and settlement of a working- population, and that out of the £4000 allotted to harbour purposes, no more than £1000, should be spent. On that understanding he voted for the bill last session, and,

upon a renewal of the promise, he would vote for the amended Act.

Mr. Osmond said that, generally, the arguments used by the member for Napier in opposition to the bill were the same as he had employed during last session. There was one statement, however, which bore the stamp of novelty, and that was that the Governor's assent to the Loan Bill would not hold good. He could assure the Council to the contrary. The bill had been returned with His Excellency's assent appended in the usual way, without qualification of any kind. The face of the document itself was quite sufficient for any business contract. Even the Colonial Treasurer, when he spoke upon the subject in the house — displaying in doing so much bad taste and ignorance of the merits of the question — said that at all events the thing was done, and, so far as he knew, the money raised. The bill was duly assented to, without question or doubt. With regard to the purposes for which this loan was raised, the government was in this position that it would have to come down with an Appropriation Act before any authorised expenditure could be incurred. This, he thought, would do away with the objections of many. Hia own opinion with reference to the bill was this, that not one penny needed necesbarily to be spent on the express purposes that were at first indicated. He thought the Council had the power to divert the money to other purposes, and that some portion of it might be advantageously devoted to important public works, some of which were essential to the prosperity of the province. On the subject of the purchase of native lands, the Superintendent would be better able than he was to speak. That gentleman still held — and it was a fortunate thing for the province that he did — the office of Chief Land Purchase Commissioner. The £30,000 for this purpose was certainly not wanted now ; but the time might speedily arrive when much larger sums would be wanted for that purpose. Something had been said in favor of the Native Lands Bill and the greater advantage attending direct purchases by private individuals. He was one who had voted for that bill, but he did so under a very different state of things to that which now existed, and he was by no means sure he would vote for such a bill again. He had reason to believe that the General Government was of the same opinion — that it was purposely keeping back the bill ; and he felt pretty sure that it never would be proclaimed the law of the colony. As to immigration, he had always found, in the General Assembly and elsewhere, that a slur was cast upon this province on the ground that it had done absolutely nothing in the way of immigration. Some of the other provinces had competed nobly in the work of introducing population, but Hawke's Bay was all behind. The province had been repeatedly taunted on this account, and it deserved it. The introduction of labour was one of the most reproductive purposes to which the loan could be applied. The immigrants could all be readily enough absorbed, and they would soon pay, in the shape of customs duties, six or seven times the sum payable for interest of the money expended in getting them out. On the subject of roads for opening up districts for special settlement, he might here say a little as to what the Superintendent and those acting with him did in Auckland. They strongly pressed the claims of the province upon the government, and obtained the promise of a large share of the money devoted to purposes of military settlement. The government, indeed, offered them nearly all that they asked for. To get these military settlers would indeed be a great advantage ; but, should the bill be thrown out, the province would be without the means of obtaining land for the purpose of such settlements. The colonization scheme of the present ministry differed materially from that of Mr. Domettwas, in fact, a weak imitation of it. In Mr. Domett's scheme the axiom was laid down that the government should take land wherever it was required for the general security. The present ministry, on the contrary, absolutely declined to take any land in such districts as Hawke's Bay ; and the Superintendent had been distinctly informed that if they wanted military settlers, they must first nud the land for them and then have it laid out. The General Government would give the men and the proportion of money allotted to purposes of location ; the province must do the rest, including, of course, the construction of roads to these settlements. This explanation was to some extent forestalling the coming session, but he thought it not out of place. He need not, he thought, go over all the items. The promise with regard to the £1000 for harbour improvements, alluded to by the member for Te Aute, was simply, if his memory served him, to the effect that no larger sum would be expended between last sitting and next sitting. The last item of all, £4000 for stables and other purposes connected with the Defence Force, would, he was happy to say. be saved to the province — the General Government, acted upon by the exertions of the Superintendent, having agreed to bear the whole of these expenses. With reference to the sum set down for harbour improvement, the question was a large one — one which had often been fully discussed in that Council. The Superintendent had recently sent to Otago with the view of obtaining the services of an experienced Marine Surveyor, who was acting on behalf of the local government there ; so that, for the first time since harbour improvement was talked of there was a prospect of getting advice from a thoroughly competent source. He (Mr. Ormond) had generally stood in that place as the opponent of all harbour expenditure, except what was absolutely necessary. But that opposition was on the ground that no opinion had been obtained from any one who had a right to give it. The profession was one of itself. He quite recognised the necessity for harbour improvement,, and was always willing that a fair share of the money at the disposal of the province should be devoted to this purpose, always provided that an opinion capable of being acted upon had been previously obtained. He would now touch upon a matter with which he was identified— he referred to the tenders for a loan. Ib was but a few minutea before entering the Council chamber that he was made aware that, in this matter, the government had been charged with giving au undue preference to one of the banks. In a few words he Would give a fair and truthful history of this matter. Tenders for the loan having been called for and sent in, they proved to be of such a nature that

they could not, in a business sense, be accepted. On speaKfflg to the managers the Government found that their powers were limited, and that reference would have to be made to Auckland. As he was then about leaving for the north, the negociation was placed in his hands to bring to an issue— his only instruction being that, if the two tenders proved to be identical, he should give a preference to the local institution. Having communicated with both banks, he believed the tender of the Union to be the better of the two, and accepted it accordingly. The arguments to a contrary effect could, he tho ught, be easily controverted. One statement that he had seen, omitted altogether the question of interest on sums lodged to account. He might here mention that, at first, the government thought of raising the loan by degrees ; but it was the opinion of all business men whom he consulted that it would not get anthing like the same terms if it raised the money in driblets instead of as a whole. When that fact was recognised it became a matter of necessity that the province should obtain a rate of interest equivalent to what it paid to the lender. The arrangement with the Union was thought by himself— and he professed to know something about figures — as well as by the business men of Auckland, to be an exceedingly good arrangement ; it was said, indeed, that it was not banking at all. No other loan had been negotiated on equally favourable terms. He then thought, as he did still, that the best arrangement had been made for the province; but if it proved to be otherwise, he only was to blame. He acted for the best and could do no more. He observed that iv a calculation made out of doors, stress was laid upon the New Zealand Bauk having named one half per cent, under the current rate as their rate of exchange ; but he was informed that this was really nothing, as the exchange was generally at par or at a premium, in which case it did not apply. The papers were on the table, and he commended them to the consideration of members.

The Superintendent said that when he moved the second reading of the bill he was certainly not prepared for the opposition that had been offered to it. Shortly after he entered upon the administration of the affairs of the province, the country became very unsettled, and he was aware that at any moment the province might be called upon to take steps for its own defence. Without funds wherewith to take measures of a precautionary nature, he felt that the province was in a position of considerable danger, and he considered that one of the first duties of the government was to obtain the means of properly providing for the safety and security of the inhabitants. That was one reason for his anxiety to have the Loan Bill passed. With regard to the purchase of land, no one could more regret than he did that circumstances had hitherto prevented him. from acquiring more land to the province ; but most people were aware that the natives were very capricious — that, when it was least expected of them, they might offer land for sale ; and that, •when they once began, the difficulty would be to stop them. In this respect they would act like a flock of sheep — one would follow the other ; it only wanteda beginning; but it should be remembered that no pressure on the part of the government would biiag about that beginning— quite the reverse. In what position would the proyince be if events took such a turn, and it had no funds available for the pux'pose 1 He probably knew better than most men the tracts of land that, at one period and another, had been offered to the government and lost through want of funds. He might name blocks in this province which, in 1850, 1851, and 1852, were lost to the country because he had not then the means at his disposal. At that time the parliamentary grant was withdrawn, and Sir George Grey informed him that he could not supply him with funds, so that purchasing operations came to a stand-still. With great difficulty he subsequently obtaiued £3000 or £4000. He thought this consideration, of itself, a strong reason why the Government should not be left without funds ; nor did he think it wise that it should be left on an emergency in the hands of the banks. Regarding the remarks that had fallen from the member for Porangahau on the subject of military settlements in the province, he need scarcely observe that the security of the province was one of the^first considerations to be had in view. Such security would be greatly increased by the location of this class of settlers, but before getting them, certain duties devolved upon the province, and these could not be performed without money. If the want of funds interposed and any disaster were afterwards to happen, it would be at once said that the fault ■was their own, and they would receive but little sympathy. The prospect of military settlers demanded immediate action on the part of the government, and he had already applied to the Provincial Engineer to lay out a road for the use of the first detachment. To do this out of provincial revenue would be simply impossible. As regards particular items of proposed expenditure, this would lie with the Council at a future sitting, but he would like that the first — the £30,000 —should remain unaltered. The second — that of £12000 for purposes of immigration — would most likely be subject to alteration, as the scheme of the General Government would supersede to a considerable extent the necessity for a provincial plan of immigration. The member for Napier, in speaking to this subject in the House of Representatives, had stated in his presence that he was not adverse to the Loan bill — that his objection applied to another bill altogether, one for giving collateral security over a certain portion of land, which bill could be no longer a ground of objection. [Subsequently, in committee, Mr. Colenso said that this was a mistake. It was to loans in the abstract, not to this particular measure, that he was not opposed.] The bill for securing the public creditor had not become law, but he was glad to see thattha principle upon which it was based had been recognised and acted upon. With reference to harbor improvements, it did appear to the Government that such were exceedingly necessary. The entrance,, without doubt, was filling up, and it was quite clear that something would have to lie done. Hitherto, the bands of the government had been tied for want of means. The mercantile men of Napier had addressed a requisition to the Superintendent, requesting that this dredge might be

put in proper order ; but, should the Loan bill be thrown out, this and many other urgent works would have to be abandoned and the town reduced to a state of stagnation; He then referred to the advantages derived by Canada and the Cape of Good Hope from having borrowed money — the former being now engaged in repaying the loans it contracted in former years ; and felt sure that this province would be equally benefited by the system. It would be seen from the amended bill that the interest on the loan was made payable in London instead of at the treasury, Napier — it being supposed that these payments being made in the colony would prejudice the negociation. To make this alteration was, indeed, the principal object for which the Council had been called together at this time. He would only add that, so far as the General Government was concerned, he had an assurance that the bill, when passed, would receive the Governor's assent. He trusted that no unseemly difficulties would be thrown in the way of raising this loan — one, the necessity for which was apparent to a large proportion of the inhabitants. The question was then put, and a division called for with the following result : — Noes— 2. Ayes— ll. Messrs. Colenso Messrs. Edwards Bousfield Ormond Smith Russell Kennedy Tuke Tiffen Dolbel Fitzgerald Ehodes M'Lean