HARBOR PLANS

Gisborne Times, Volume LXII, Issue 9997, 28 April 1925, Page 5

HARBOR PLANS

REVIVAL OF INTEREST IN LYSNAR SCHEME. DEPUTATION TO THE BOARD. SHOULD IT BE RECEIVED ? A revival of interest in certain quarters in Mr. 0. H. Lysnar’s latest harbor scheme, caused • some divergence of opinion in the Harbor Board meeting yesterday, when a request to receive a deputation was contained 1 in the following letter: “It is proposed that a deputation of ratepayers»of the Gisborne harbor district wait on your Board to-day to .ask for investigation of Mr. G. 11. Lysnar’s improved plan for a doublechambered harbor for Gisborne. It is contended by many ratepayers that the present proposals ar.e likely to. take many years to construct and will prove too costly an undertaking for the accommodation to be provided. They arc of opinion that if Mr. Lysnar’s improved plan can be built in less time for less money and at the same time having the advantage of being a double-chambered harbor, they respectfully intend to request that the merits and cost of this scheme should be investigated.” The Chairman: I have already informed these gentlemen that they are wasting their time in waiting on the Board. The Board is bound to a certain scheme no'.v, and they cannot change it without sanction of the Board. Parliament, and the bond holders. Ido not wish to be discourteous to the deputation, but I move that the deputation come before tlic Board and to inform them that the Board cm Id not see its way to depart from the present programme. Mr. Williams: Then you want to decide before you hear them? The Chairman: "We’re not going to go to Parliament and change our scheme now, surely?

Mr. Sherratt- said that the scheme was for an outer harbor, and improvements could be made bv tlie Board if the Minister of Marine would sanction them. The chairman said that the scheme was for an outer harbor and they could not depart from it. Mr. Williams: You.have departed from, the scheme. The scheme has been modified out of all recognition. The Board adopted the Reynolds scheme, and now it is building the harbor on the Engineer’s plan. The Chairman: Yes.

Mr. Quirk thought that the Board should lvear the deputation, and before giving any reply thev should obtain a legal opinion. He thought ■Unit the Board could not decline to hear the deputation. The Chairman: Surely the Board would not entertain a proposal to change the scheme new? Why what were they thinking about ? Dr. Collins pointed- out that the chairman was wrong in his conclusion that the Board only wanted'to hear the deputation-. The Hoard was only an intermediary and could modify with the sanction of the Minister of Marine.

Mr. Williams objected to the motion on the grounds that. the. Board was asked to arrive at a decision before hearing the deputation. It was unfair to state that the Board would hear the deputation and take no notice of tlmir representations. The Board could, if it so desired, make application for modification in the present scheme if Mr. Lysnar’s plan was an improvement. Ti- was decided that the deputation should be beard during the afternoon.

CAN BOARD ADOPT PORTIONS OF THIS SCHEME? ACRIMONIOUS DEBATE. Liter a deputation consisting of Messrs. F. Staff fiord and H. H. Wall and Capt. Gumming, waited on the Board to urge reconsideration of the plan. An acrimonious debate ■followed in which there were some heated exchanges among members. Mr. F. Stafford explained that a large number of ratepayers were to 'be "present, but Mr. Lysnar was not present, neither, were other members. He bad iust been handed the following letter addressed to the Board: ■•\Ve are here as ratepayers of the ■Gisborne harbor district to respectfully ask the Board to investigate the merits and cost of Air. G. H. Lysnar’s improved plan for a double-chambered harbor for Gisborne. We are of the opinion that if Air. Lysnar’s scheme can be built in less time and tor less uuenw than the Board’s present proposal and at the same time having the advantage of being a doub!e-chain,ber-ed harbor, bis plan should be invest touted before the Board commits itself too far with the present proposal. "Mr Lvsiiar points out in bis comparative 1 plan "which be published in tne ‘Gisborne Times’ a fern weeks ago, -that, under the Board’s present proposal. riie entrance to the proposed "harbor would permit about 000 feet -mere southerly rollers to enter chan could got into" the Commission a, Engineers’ modified plan. If that is so, we must remember that the Columns=Tsioii of Engineers 1 plan was condeinn.o,l l,v two" master mariners ns being ■ unsafe for shipping owing to elm range that would enter the harbor it The opinions ° ma-tvr mariners were subsequently confirmed by AD Leslie H. Reynolds, ‘•Cart-in Carson, and later by All. (Im-bo’l. the Blord’s engineer, too -that'if the Commission of Engineers Plan was condemned because the entrance being too exposed to coming rollers, the Harbor Boaiia -present proposal must foithe■ same reason also be condemned, if dv.Tw AD Lvsuar savs admit about oOOft more soMherly 'rollers than the Com-inis-ion of Engineer s. It is Mso x 'be observ-d from Air Lysnar’s oon> ( m,- -u-in that bis plan lias a par 1 oi\(* pi an * cno feet as width of entrance of SQO -TVmrd’s .n.tf GOO feet under the Bm-rci s , proposals, .and that the depth ,1 Gtb „t I,™- tide at hts -pi-oiMsed enu -mo is 33 feet, against only -l f.A' under tlie Board WW* ' Dii!; further companon o, A i • D n u n ;+ vill be noticed that l-VM.-o is a good depth of water to thq ■Hi!•]■')mb to his proposed entrance, as OK bet at low water can be obtained dentil, or anvthmg neai xnaa depth," it would entranco dredge a channel outside the entrance for rbont 2000 feet— and a-s ve aic ■■informed that the bottom of Dc Bw *» «»* '“S a„ S l™ol tuiS r„iTv an unpiotctted - -. every time it'a-fl “A Thiro are other I'iini-f’fnittjng tlw Board will grant (Mr 07 Sniitb) pointed out that the Board bad niad-e «_ denrite appointment foi toe - l - t ~, at 2 15 n.m. l.ut. ,ao,ng tlic t-m-di'Oer of the deputation uas nox r.-'-awiit it was for the Board to •--</> v'be l bar the conference should be adjourned HU la.ter in the dav 1 Mr. Stafford asked the Boa id to ~.,-,1 t;de anv prejudice that tncy Sfe were several sJlfent JSSgjj caid B’d if this harbor c-ouid be bum for 0700.000 it would be • a vise vf'b 'nie to- the Board to adorn. I‘ ie - e wis . great deal of agitation ns to wbeßier the shipmasters would m-to, Tl-ifTamurt into ~.1 harbor Oil account ol the great reniwu To complete tbo prwert Hclionio: it would 1» ncccssoi y to go t fl.a mnnev market again, and suci. - loans -as these. -.Were becoming n -Uurden 'tb the-district. C<msequcnt T Air 'Lysnar’s scheme ~„ ■ tiro «>*» -SSn: 0 Thin Xhcre was tiro fad

that, under Air. Lysnar’s scheme, the training wall would be turned into a wharf, which woyld be valuable for the loading of meat from tlie Gisborne Sheepf armors’ Works. Captain Gumming said that in a single-chambered harbor there would be trouble with sand drift and under the present scheme the Board would not bo able to keep the diversion cut open, which was possible under the Lysnar plan. The chairman stated that the Board would consider their answer, but the deputation must remember that the Board was in the position of having embarked on a scheme'. However, the reply would be considered and transmitted to them.

The request was then discussed at length by the Board. Air. Quirk asked members not to be unconsciously biassed against those who submitted the scheme, and he hoped that they would consider tlie project as though it was submitted by an outside engineer. He proposed that the Board take legal advice on their ; position, on the grounds that the debenture holders, Acts of Parliament. and other, important matters had to be remembered. If the Board’s legal position was satisfactory, he suggested that tho plan should be reforred to Air. Furkert, Engirceer-in-Chier, and Air Holmes, late Engineer-m-Chief for report. Dr. Collins thought that the matter could be better discussed in committee. .

The Chairman: I am prepared to express my view in open Board. Air. .Williams, in seconding, said that the Board had arrived at a time when they should pause and look round, and he referred particularly to the pledge, on which they were elected, not to spend more than a certain sum on the harbor. The deputation was merely asking to have the Lysnar scheme investigated, and although the Engincer-in-Chief (Air. 'Furkert) had examined the plan liis answers had only been bald statements and not the technical opinion of an _ expert, as to the advisability of adopting it. As to the promise made by members, lie said that members on the public platform had promised to give Gisborne the first instalment, of the Reynolds scheme for £7-50,000, together with breakwater and .interest for two years. But now it was found that tlie 3700 ft breakwater would be left out, and the harbor could not be dredged to 25ft on account of the sand drift. To complete the scheme would mean raising a further loan over and above the £l,000,000 loan, which created a very nasty position. The people were promised a 30ft- harbor and not a foot less. The Lysnar scheme had been condemned on account of the enormous amount of dredging, but he submitted this was not the case, and unless contradicted by experts his opinion would stand. He advocated the .appointment of a committee to take evidence of master mariners, hut in any ease lie wanted a close investigation into the scheme. In the Lysnar scheme it. was from the 25it harbor that the advantages accrued, in that measuring it to-the depth to 30ft the dredging in Reynolds scheme at 3/4 a yard would cost- £15,000, whereas under the Lysnar scheme the - dredging at'-6s 8d per yard—double price—the cost would be £15,600, but, apart from that, to make the Reynolds harbor safe, the Board would have to expend £244,000' in Air. Reynolds own figures on the further breakwater.

The chairman, in opposing the resolution, said that the Reynolds harbor bad been submitted to ratepayers and the marine authorities, and had received their sanction. Air. Lysnar’s plan had been considered by Air. F nuke rt, who said that no more benefit would accrue than by the present undertaking. Tlie Board bad permission to spend up to £750,000, in fact up to £1,000,000, but the Board had promised to spend three-quarters of a million, and he denied the fact that that amount would be exceeded. The Engineer, bo said, could provide a -harbor .with 1500 ft of. breakwater, with 750 ft extension, for £6OO|COO. That was on the estimates of 1924. and the work which bad been carried on had shown a saving and he he.d no fear that the complete ' scheme could not be . accomplished for less than the estimates. He claimed that the motion, if passed, would alarm the ratepayers, the M-a-rir.ie Department and bondholders, and these people would wonder what sort of Board thev had to deal with. The time had passed when.the Board should entertain any other scheme. He had told Mr. Lvsnar time and again long ago to submit his plans to. the Marine Department and obtain their opinion on them. Further. It would have prejudiced chances of getting the second instalment of the loan had the A.AIP. S ocicty known tlie Board contemplated a change of policy at that stage. Now the money was raised the" Board must keep faith with the lenders.

Air. Corson opposed the motion in: its entirety, pointing out that the fact that 'the steamer Alako would call here regularly in future proved that the work done already had been successful- ft would be foolish for the Board to adopt any other igdieme now and he contended that the Lysnai plan would have been submitted months ago bad be (Air. Lysnar) not been anticipating payment from the Board for other nlans. He pointed out -that Air. Stafford’s argument m favor of tbo training mil being used as a wharf was no good, as it would be more Advantageous^to tbie Company to snip from the Ivaiti wharf. Air. Todd announced liis opposition to the proocsal stating that even li plans were commended by the best engineer he would not cons dei them this stage, as the Board had proceedecl too far with the present works.

Dr Collins said that in the past there had been a divergence of the opinion of country and town members of the Board, and that divergence cn'ine to a head when work on the present scheme was commenced. The divergence was bridged over by con'cessions from the town members that certain work would be carried out by contract, and it was then thought that there would bo unanimity m iuture. He did not see why such a scheme should arise to disturb the unanimity of the' Board on a cci tain scheme at t-lic present time. The and materials, necessary for a; successful undertaking, but ho pointed out that the wiles of harbor diplomacy extended from tlie Kaiti cu other fantastic schemes, and- now the work was started the Board had to continue He contended that the Board was only an intermediary an He spending of money, between the Marine Demrtment and the ratopay--o,s and the Board had to build a barber at tlie cheapest possib.e cost to the public. Could they, as a sane Boa rd having ra Fed money from the nublie’ and on the London market, declare thev bad no obligation to those who loaned, the money? The Board had to show stability Oi character and proceed with the scheme Sow in hand. “AVhat guarantee have vou "ot that there is no range in AI.. Lysnar’s harbor.-'’ be asked. Dr- Collins: Well 1 have figures worked oat l.v Mr .Xcslio liojiiokls to show that there is a oft lange in the Lvsuar harbor. Continuing, Dr. Collins said th.it there must be no divergence of opmi<m if the works were to be carried to a successful issue. ' Air Tomhleson stated that the Board had borrowed money, not o« the Reynolds harbor, but on the dis? trtet’s ability .to stand a Id m tlic £. -If the Lvsuar plan would affoid b t ter facilities whv not investigate the scheme thoroughly. He pomtefl L out that: the breakwater of the .Lysnai scheme would come nearer:.inshore and as for dredging lie submitted that it 4s impossUile to estimate, the cost. Further lie stated that the

Board should not have to obtain Parliament’s sanction to the adoption of the Lysnar scheme, as the diversion and many of the principal items were part of tho complete harbor. Air Sherratt favored investigation of the Lysnar scheme but announced ho was not in favor of stopping any of the works. When the works were started tho chairman had assured the Board that all the inner works would bo done first.

Tlie chairman: I deny that absolutely.

Continuing, Mr Sherratt thought that there should be an inquiry into the scheme which might enable tlie Board to effect a considerable saving to tho ratepayers: Mr Holdsworth said that the chairman’s attitude was ridiculous. Lie supported an investigation of the scheme by tho Marine Dept., pointing ouF that the report on stone deposits had altered the face of things. The chairman: That’s no argument. Mr Holdsworth: Then where are we going to get stone from ? Silence!

Air Birred opposed the motion and expressed surprise that the scheme had been brought up at this time. The plan had been submitted to the Marine .Engnieer and he did not express partiality to it. It would, lie said, show that the Board had no backbones and would be an insult to tlie whole district if they permitted further investigation. He hoped there would be no further somersaulting, and pointed out that the Board could not start tlie new scheme without delay and enormous expense. Air Witters, in supporting the motion, regretted that the scheme had come so late, stating he always considered that Air Lysnar was foolish in not taking the Board into his confidence. They might look foolish in the eyes of the ratepayers, but if tho Board could save the district money he, for one, would not mind that. He held no brief for Air Lysnar, but ifthere were any advantages accruing tlie Board should adopt them and save the ratepayers money. He had always been opposed to the present scheme on account of tho blank between the mole and the breakwater and until that was extended he was of opinion that the scheme could not be totally successful. Air Mirfield stated that he intended voting against the proposal, although be was of opinion that there was something in Air Lysnar’s plan. It was too late seeing that the obligations and arrangements already entered by the Board and progress of the works. Air Wallis announced that lie did not favor the motion, as the plan already had been submitted to Mr Furkert who, had he considered it a better scheme, would have informed tlie Board. The Board was now undertaking the inner harbor, but he did not think that estimates had been submitted for the outer work.

The chairman: The present instalment can be carried out for £600.000 and the whole scheme for £900,000. _ Air Dymoek said that the Engineer’s estimate and Professor Speight’s report had altered tho complexion of the scheme, and he thought that the Lysnar plan should bo examined.

The chairman: We will have to delay tlie work considerably. Air Quirk in reply, pointed out that this plan was not the one rejected by the Alarine Engineer and if there were any advantages accruing the Board should adopt that portion of the Lysnar scheme and thus earn the gratitude of the ratepayers. He did not want to hamper the work,but merely wanted to obtain a report which, be said, would not commit the Board in any way,' and if it was shown that a saving of £200,000 could be effected, then the Board should, as business men, adopt that portion. Air Sherratt pointed out that the Board should inquire as to whether the Lysnar scheme could be so adopted as to fit in with tho present works undertaken. Air Wallis said that he understood that the Atari no Engineer had rejected the 'Lysnar scheme but Air Quirk had announced that he had not inspected that plan.

The chairman: The main outlines of the plans are the same but certain small modifications have been made.

Air Wallis thought that in view of the fact tliat the Alarine Engineer had not inspected the plan that he should have 'the opportunity of so doing. Air Williams, in explaining his conception of the motion, said that be understood that legal advice was to obtain an opinion as to whether the Board could adopt part of the Lysnar plan now the present work was so far advanced.

It was finally agreed that legal advice should be first obtained as to whether the Board could adopt any portion of the Lysnar plan now- that the works had advanced to the present stage, and tiiat this information should be transmitted to the Board before taking further action. The division was as follows: For: Afessrs Sherratt, Holden, Witters, Williams, Tomhleson, Quirk, Holdsworth, Dymoek.

Against: Afessrs Smith, Wallis, Birred, Corson, Mirfield,Todd and Dr. Collins.