THE OUTER HARBOR BILL.

Gisborne Times, Volume XXV, Issue 2140, 24 July 1907, Page 1

THE OUTER HARBOR BILL.

ANIMATED DISCUSSION. A CONCESSION TO WAIAPU. Ah yesterday’s meeting of the Gisborne Harbor Board, the Board’s solicitors (Messrs. Chris]) and- Coleman) notified that on Saturday they ha l uplifted the Empowering Bill from tlio Magistrate’s' Court duly certified to by Mr. Barton, S.M., as required by law, and forwarded it to the Cleric of Parliament. Assuming that it reaches Wellington in duo course of post there would bo just tbreo davs to spare. “We have written fully to’the Hon. J. Carroll, in tlio Lower House, to take immediate cliargo of the Bill, and have asked him to use his best endeavors to get it through. We have also written in a like strain to the Hon. Captain Tucker, M.L.C. 1 If the Board desire to strengthen . Mr. Carroll’s hands with further information no time should be lost in' forwarding the same.” 1

A copy of the Bill was laid on the table. Tlio Chairman moved, and Mr. W. D Lysnar seconded, that the Hon. J Carroll bo asked to take charge of the Bill in the Lower House, and the Hon. Captain Tucker in the Upper House.—Carried' unanimously.

The letter from thoiWaiapu County Council (previously published) protesting against the Bdl was read. Mr. ; Lysnar informed the Board that when-ip Wellington he had soundcl members on the subject. He gathered that they regarded Waiapu’s objection as of substance, but considered Tolaga had not a good case. He had had a conference with Mr. Ngata, who was in charge of Waiapu’s cause, and who' held it unfair to make the Waiapu Council responsible for native rates. Mr. Ngata, after going into the matter, conceded that it was reasonable to include native lands in the rating area, and expressed the opinion that the native. would not object to be rated. The member thought some concession should be made to the- Waiapu County, and that noithed natives nor Europeans in that county should be, called upon to pay rates for three years after the passing of the Act. The Hon. Captain Tucker roso to a point of order. What was all this about? If Mr. Lysnar had been apj-ointed by the Board he might have a right to. come there and repeat conversations with members of Parliament, but he had no right' at present. ‘‘l don’t want to hear him, and I don’t think anyone else does,” he added.

Mr. Sievwright objected to any member going down (to Wellington “lobbying” with or; without the Board’s sanction. It ’ was most improper.

Mr. Harris remarked that it would lav , "been a good thing in tho past f they had had more men like Mr. Lysnar. He was to -be commended ’or going to trouble and expense on die Board’s behalf.

Captain Tucker said, ho objected to timo being wasted in retailing conversations. It was hiot in order.

Mel: would say one thing and act differently. He could if he chose ted of a totally different conversation with one of the persons named. Mr. Sievwright queried what this discussion had to do with tho letter. Mr. Mattliowson said that anv member had a perfect right to further the Board’s business. If he had beer, in Wellington ho would have done the same. Mr. Sievwright: No one denies you tho right, but it lias nothing to do with tho Board assembled for business, Mr. Lysnar said that if ho were -allowed to continue ho would show ilia bearing on the letter. Captain Tucker continued to object to “irrelevant conversations.” Mr. Lysnar: It is not irrelevant. You were down there working agalnsf the Bill. I had an equal right to work for it. Captain Tucker resented such a statement.

Mr. Lysnar said Captain Tucker and Mr. Sievwright were opposed to the Bill, and would do all they could

Captain Tucker: So you are pleas*, efj tp say. Mr. Lysnar: Ypu tphl mo .you would do your little best against'lt. Captain Tucker: I wonder you can tell such a falsehood, Mr. Lysnar: You said so in front of tho Herald office.

Captain Tucker: I said I recognised the. justice of Tolaga’s objection, aid I still sa.v so. I did not say I H’fls against the Bill; : I don’t know hp'V'yQu goj> that idea. Mr, L.ysjiar said he accepted this explanation, ’ He was proceeding when Captain Tucker objected to the further ;-e----cita' of conversations. “I don’t want to know what people told you,” ha said. “They might be having you on a string, as somo of them led me to suppose' they did.” : Mr. Wliinray appealed to the Chairman for a fair hearing for the speaker. It was information for the Beard.' ' " t j ’

Mr. Sievwright said let the matter be argued in Parliament. A member ha 1 as much right to .fight against the Hill as for it. After further desultory discussion Sir. Lysnar went on to sav that there were two Waiapu representatives ill Wellington now opposing the Bill. Should the Board stand quictlv aside and not put their case forward? If the., did they would not bo worthy of their position. Captain Tucker: You liavo a right

to work, but not to como hero and tell us what people said. Mr. Lysnar: If you don’t liko it there is the door. Captain Tucker: ■l’ came here for business. 1

Mr. Lysnar: I say this is importait business, even though you don’t think so.

Captain Tucker: I suppose it is something intended to r o into the paper with ulterior motives. Mr, Harris upheld Mr. Lysnar’s right to speak. Mr. Sievwright: It is a matter for Pailiament.

Mr. Harris: If we get ono or two things cleared up our opponents will then work with us.

Captain Tucker and Mr. Lysnar continued to argue for somo time. Tin- former accused the latter of misrepresentation, and Mr. Lysnar replied. Captain Tucker wanted, to move tlia- the business proceed. Mr. Lysnar showed that be “had the floor.” He moved that -the Board approves of the Committee of tne House eliminating any reference to .the Waiapu County Council collecting or being responsible for the native rates, also to add a proviso that no new rate bo struck in' tifo Waiapu

Countv for three years after the passintr of the Bill. This, lie said, would, meet the Waiapu objections, and would show the House that the Beard wished to deal fairly in the matter. Mr. Ngata had so far received no reply from Waiapu, but bis representations should weigh in the matter if the Board agreed to the resolution. He (Mr. Lysnar) was informed that Messrs. Sherwood and He Lautour were opposing the Bill as it stood at present on Waiapu’s behalf. Ho complimented Mr. Ngata for the part he had taken on helialf of the natives, and hoped Europeans would prove as broadminded. A conference between re-presentatives-of the'Board and the Waiapu' County w r ould be a good idea if it could be arranged. All information available should be printed fo.’ the use of members of Parliament, and evidence should be tendered before the committee. M. Wliinray seconded-the. motion. Ho knew that Mr. Lysnar had a good knowledge of bow things stood, and the course proposed was a wise one.

Tho Chairman: What is tlio good of amendments before tho Bill gets to Parliament? M. Lysnar retorted that they would smooth the passage of the Mr. Siovwright: It will show that wo don’t know oxqotly what wo do want! Mr. Mattliowson pointed out, that amendments would come well form tlio Board. There was no use running the risk of tlio Bill being “kicked out.” , Mr. Harris: If tho Bill is kicked out through any fault of ours I think tlio members of the Board will he lire tty well kicked through the streets of Gisborne (Applause). Tlio Chairman said. it. would have been better if the alterations wore made before the Bill went down. Mr. Lysnar added to His motion, so as to relieve local bodies of the onus'of collecting tho rates. Direct collection from tho - Harbor Board office would bo preferable. It was the Chairman who bad got tho Board to adopt tlio Oamaru; method of collecting through various Councils, but. the. conditions were - different in n younger district like this and- he (Mr. Lysnar) thought the present aw opportune time to make the alteration. He gathered in Wellington that the Oamaru Board’s system was not generally favoured. His complete motion would remove tho solid objections raised to the Bill. - Captain Tucker said he would not object to making the Counties responsible. The alteration suggested- was advisable. ' -The Chairman thought the method of collecting through the Councils the best way, as it .only meant an extra column on the rate notices, but bo did not preks tlio point. Ho mentioned tlio system could bo changed in future, if thought advisable, by a special Act of i Parliament as in tlio case of Timaru. Mr. Lysnar’s motion, as added to, was carried, only Mr.; Sievwright dissenting. ! v A further motion was moved by Mr. Lysnar, authorising tho printing and distribution to members of Parliament of Mr. Merchant’s report oil tho harbor, the financial statement and a. copy of tho balance' sheet. ! _ The motion was carried, Mr. Sievwrightl again dissenting. . Mr. Whinray thought that a member should bo in Wellington when the Bill was before the Committee. Tlio Chairman: Suppose we charter tho John Townlcy and all go down (laughter). A member (jocularly): If tlio vessel was sunk with all on board it would bo a good clearance, (laughter). Captain Tucker said) that whatever ( his views before, ho would now simply obey written instructions regarding the Bill. It was enough for him to be stigmatised as an opponent. ; ' The Chairman: We ask you to take cliargo of tho Bill in the Upper House.

Captain Tucker: If I see anything wrong, in ■ the Bill you can depend upon it I will say so. Mr. Whinray moved that Mr. Lysnar proceed to Wellington in advocacy of the Bill, accompanied by Mr. Witty, the secretary, or Mr. Barton, his assistant J Mr. Mattliewson seconded. They must not let the thing go slip-shod. Ho pointed out that, any citizen could give evidence, j Had he the time lie would be pleased to do so. Mr. Sievwright did, not see why one section only should be represented. Why should not. the Chairman or some other member give evidence. “For my part,” ho added, “I should like Mr. Lysnar tied down as to what lie says; I think lie is very unreliable” (laughter). Why should the Chairman be overlooked, or why should ho himself be excluded 9

Mr. Harris: As long as you don’t go down in the same boat. Mr. Lysnar contended that it was necessary to send someone in sympathy with the Bill. It would he a very pecular thing, after the Board had approved of the Bill, to send a representative down to oppose it. He did not lyant to be harassed with a member opposed to it. He would be willing to go if he had authority to obtain counsel’s a<lvise in regard to any amendments. Mr. Hepburn suggested that the Chairman accompany him. Mr, Lysnar: I regard it that tho Chairman lias been opposed to the outer harbor.

The Cjiairjqan: You can think as you like about) it. t Mr. Wliinray, who bad added that a second member also be sent, 'withdrew this portion of the motion. Mr. Mutthewson: Anyone who desires can go down and give evidence. Captain Tucker said that to exclude a full expression of opinion courted suspicion. An inclination to exclude apyope would be noticed by the Committee; that wa.s tilts evidence "they would ash for. Tho motion, delegating Mr. Lysnar, and an officer of tlip; Board to go down to Wellington- was carried. Mr. Sievwright voted against it. Mr. Lysnar ro-iterated tbit lie should have the right to employ counsel.

Captain Tucker: If you do right we will back you up, I fpr one—deadly opponent that I aiii supposed to be—will not see you paying out of your own pocket. : Mr Lysnar accepted this assurance. As lie bad said from t]ie outset, he believed Captain Tucker would yet vote for tho Bill.

Captain Tucker : I never said I would not) ; it was only you said so. Generally speaking I am for your Bill. ;

Mr Lysnar : I am sorry that I misunderstood you.

Tho discussion then ended.