THE ESTIMATES.

Evening Star, Issue 7655, 4 July 1888, Page 4

THE ESTIMATES.

THE GOVERNMENT REVERSE THEIR DEFEAT.

ATTITUDE OF THE FREETRADERS,

[From Our Parliamentary Reporter.]

WELLINGTON. July 3,

The adjourned debate on the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair, in order to go into Committee of Supply to consider the Estimates, and on Mr Monk's amendment calling for a repeal of the Acts fixing the salaries in Legislative and Audit Departments, was resumed to-night by Mr Seddon, who said that he would reserve any remarks he might wish to make on the question until a later date. Dr Hodgkinson condemned the passing of the tea tax for local Subsidies, and advocated the sale of the railways. Mr Marchant justified the action of a section of the House in demanding further retrenchment to the extent of LIOO,OOO. The party had no means of bringing up Legislative salaries for revision except by repeal of the Acts dealing with these salaries, and the object of the amendment was to enable the Government to do this.

Mr Hutchison considered that many of the so-called savings were merely nonrecurrent votes, which, in the ordinary course, ought not to have appeared on this year's Estimates. Fully L 72.000 could be saved apart from the Railway Department, in which reductions could, he thought, be made to the extent of L 30.000.

Sir G. Grey was satisfied that Mr Monk's amendment ought to be adopted, but feared that it would take a great deal of persuasion to induce the House to adopt it. The Legislation Department ought not to be favored beyond other branches of the Service in being exempt from reductions. Persons had been appointed to the Government Life Insurance Department who had not passed the Civil Service examination, and he argued that, at a time when officers of other branches were being turned away, they ought to be given the choice of removal to the Insurance Department in preference to the persons whom he alluded to. The House did not require a highly-paid Chairman of Commutes, for members ought to undertake the duties in turn. He advocated the appointment of parliamentary under-secretaries, who, with an efficient chief clerk under them, would be able to conduct the Service much better than under the present system. The Government ought to promote his Law Practitioners Bill, so that the legal profession might be open to all discharged Civil sorvants. Much of the tuition now given in our public schools was of a kind which was useless to the children in after life, and he thought that some kind of technical instruction ought to be given in the primary schools. In conclusion, hehoped that the had said enough to assist the passage of Mr Monk's amendment.

The amendment—"That in the opinion of this House it is desirable that the Government should introduce, and, if possible, pass this session a Bill to repeal or amend the Legislative Officers Salaries Act, 1867, and the Public Revenues Act, 1878 '—was then put, and lost by 52 to 21. Mr Scobie Mackenzie said that the Freetraders recognising that the question at issue was simply one between the Government and their Protectionist supporters, in which the Freetraders were not concerned, would not regard it as incumbent upon them to vote on it.

Mr Hobbs hoped that the Government, during the recess, would consider retrenchment in the direction indicated in Mr Monk's amendment.

Sir G. Grey said he would again divide the House on the question, as he considered the decision upon the amendment to be unfair to the Civil servants and a bad example to the country. Mr Scobie Mackenzie said that no principle was involved in the dispute between the Government and the Protectionists, the question being whether tho House should go on with the Estimates or give preference to the Customs Duties Bill, which was already almost law as far as that House was concerned. The Freetraders did not care a farthing which came first, and would therefore exercise their right of not voting. But if an opportunity were given them of relieving the country of what they considered to be a disastrous measure of Protection, they would know which lobby to walk into, even though it involved the defeat of the Government.

Mr W. P. Reeves said that Mr Scobie Mackenzie, who was another of the celebrated men who kept the Government in and their measures out, was prepared to keep this Government in and to take himself out. He (Mr Reeves) had on Friday voted againßt the Government, but he would now support them, as he now understood their proposals regarding business arrangements, which he did not then ; but he denied the report that he had given the Government a pledge of continued support. Mr Moss condemned the attitude of the Premier on Friday, which seemed to indicate that he thought he was indispensable to the country. Mr Menteath taunted Mr Reeves with inconsistency, and said if he and his friends had not given a pledge, they probably had an understanding with the Government. Dr Fitchett said that Friday's division was a surprise. The Protectionists had a misunderstanding with the Government as to the fate of the Tariff, and had voted against them. They then thought that the Government wanted to use the Bill as a whip with which to force through the Estimates, but they were now satisfied that such was not the case, and they intended now to support the Government.

Mr Allen said that Mr Reeves had stated on Friday that the Protectionists had their price, and it appeared that it had been paid, The misunderstanding had been removed, and it was evident that they had been in communication with the Government, and that some arrangement had been made. Mr Seddon said he found that the Premier had granted one thing that they had been fighting for, and because he had consented to a motion whioh was to bo tabled, affirming the desirability of making further reductions to the extent of LIOO.OOO. Thus it appeared that the division of Friday was a complete victory for those who advocated further economy. Mr Tanner, though he claimed to be a staunch Freetrader, said he for one would not walk out of the House when the question was put, but would support the Government. Mr Mackenzie should have said that he spoke for only a section of the Freetraders —namely, the secedera from the Govern* ment,

Captain Russell justified his intention of walking out of the House when the question was put. The Premier had given a direct challenge to the House, threatening to consider his position. The Freetraders felt called upon to do anything in their power to defeat tho Customs Duties Bill. No Government were indispensable, and, for his own part, lie would, if necessary, go on upsetting Government after Government, with the idea of making administration impossible, until the question was relegated to the country, which he was sure would decide it in favor of Freetrade.— (Cries of "No.") It was almost unconstitutional to bring down such a Tariff without notice. The Freetraders could not vote to bring up the Tariff, and therefore they would walk out of the House. That was the only ground they could take up, seeing that it was impossible to resist an overwhelming majority of the House, though that majority was acting contrary to the wishes of the country. The Premier said that Captain Russell's speech was extraordinary and illogical, in view of the action he contemplated. When there was some chance of doing what they proposed the Freetraders proposed to walk out of the House. Their position was weak and absurd. They were going to do everything they could, yet that everything meant simply walking out of the House. As to Mr Seddon, no member wanted more time than he; and the Customs Bill might now be law but for his action. The Government would be glad to accept any assistance to carry out retrenchment when in Committee; that was, any reduction within reason. They were even more anxious than hon. members to economise, because they knew the need of it. They had never professed to have finished the work of retrenchment, but they were still going on with it. If some progress were made with the Estimates they would probably bring down the Customs Duties Bill next day, and dispose of it. Nobody could be more anxious than they to get rid of the measure. Ho asked the Freetraders to give him credit for believing that he was acting in what he considered to be the interests of the country. He denied that there was any bargain with the Protectionists, or that they had made any approach to the Government. He as well as themselves would have been degraded had any offer been made. They wanted to see a strong Government on the benches, and they wished the matter to be brought to an issue as soon as possible, rn order to decide whether the Government were or were not to be rejected. It was only the unfair conduct of certain members which made the Government take up such a position on Friday. Even now the Bill was not ready to be finally dealt with, as it would be necessary to correct certain errors and to make such alterations that were required. Mr Monk's motion was objectionable because it was too indefinite, and did notfspecify the reforms he proposed. The Government had considered during the recess the question whether the Chairman of Committees should not be dispensed with altogether. He thought the position could be well filled from a roto. Still the idea required more mature consideration, and it would not be wise to rush into an expenditure for the sake of saving two or three hundred pounds. The motion to go into Committee of Supply was carried by 59 to 4, and the House went into Committee:—

Class 1. Legislative, L 14.955. Mr Hutchison wished to review the item of L 25.000 set down for pensions, compensation, and gratuities under special Acts of the Legislature, contending that the item was not authorised by the Act which purported to do so.—The Chairman, however, ruled him out of order.—Sir Maurice O'Rorke called attention to an innovation which had been made this year, which waa unconstitutional and without warrant from the House. The Executive, for the first time since he had known the House, had taken upon themselves to regulate the salaries of the legislative officers without any reference to the Speaker. If this concerned only the Speaker, he would probably be content to pass it over in silence, but it was a matter which also concerned the House, which had always kept in its own hand the right of fixing its officers' salaries. That power was now sought to be taken away. It was, he believed, only preparatory to a second step- viz., that of making the j officers of the House officers of the Executive. He was glad to be able to appeal to ' members at a time when party feeling was : put aside, and to ask them not to yield up ; the rights which were secured to them with ; great difficulty twenty-one years ago. It would be a very sorry day for the House :vhen its officers had to look to one or another of the Executive either for their : promotion or for increase of their pay. As the oldest member of the House the question concerned him less than anybody else; but the question was whether the officers were or were not to be allowed to become political partisans. Hitherto they had not been so, and he was surprised that this movement should be promoted by a gentle- ' man of such long experience in the House, and one who had been so long connected with the history of New Zealand as the Premier. Proceeding with his speech under influence of strong emotion, Sir Maurice said that he and the Premier entered the I House together, and the latter must know of j the difficulties under which a former Speaker (Sir David Monro) had contended with the Fox and Stafford Ministries to secure the I independence of the legislative officers. ' Fault had been found with some appoint- . ments which he had made, but he pointed out that he had only chosen the eergeantat- , arms, of whose qualifications the House could . judge; and when the late Parliamentary i Reader retired from the House, notwithstanding his endeavors to the contrary, and after j remaining for twelve months at his (the j Speaker's) personal request, he, in order to introduce his son to a knowledge of public business, had placed him in the position at a reduced salary of Ll5O, though the House had last year voted a larger salary. These appointments were the only ones he had made during ten years, and did not warrant the aspersions which had been levelled against them. He did not ask for himself the right of fixing salaries, but he claimed that the House should do so. All would feel that the House was higher than the Executive, who were the mere creation of the day, and could be made or unmade at the will of the House; but he asked the House to assert its own independence and that of its officers. He had no proposition to make just now, but he would hear whether members sympathised with the view he took, and afterwards endeavor to bring the House back to the position won for it by his predecessors in office. —Mr Seddon thought that the position of Reader, to which the Speaker had appointed his son, was unnecessary. He spoke strongly against the Speaker's contention.—The Premier promised that an opportunity should be given to test the feeling of the Committee relative to this matter, apartfrom party consideration. There had long been a difficulty because the Estimates were only nominally under the charge of the Government, and it was thought undesirable that Mr Speaker should appear on the floor of the House and defend these particular votes, consequently the Government had decided on these changes.—Mr Peacock approved of the action of the Government, while Mr Moss viewed their action with alarm, and denounced it as unconstitutional.—Sir John Hall disapproved of the action of the Government, and said it was very undesirable that the officers of the House Bhould have to look for their salaries to the Government who happened to be in power. They should not have to look to one side of the House or to the other.—Progress was reported on the motion of the Premier, and the committal of the Estimates was made the second Order of the Day for Wednesday, the Customs Duty Bill being put first.