NORTH DUNEDIN PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH.

Evening Star, Issue 7156, 9 March 1887, Page 4

NORTH DUNEDIN PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH.

A pro re nata meeting of the Dunedin Presbytery was held at the First Church last evening, for the purpose of considering a memorial from members and ex-members of the North Dunedin congregation, together with the resignation of the minister (the Rev. A. 0. Gillies) and the office-bearers of the church. The Moderator (Rev, Mr Cameron) presided, and there were also present—The Revs. Dr Stuart, D. Borrie, J. F. Hurst, J. Ryley, R. R. M. Sutherland, A. 0. Gillies, A. M. Finlayson, J. Kirkland, J. M. M’Kerrow, K. T. Porter, J. Gibb, W. Will (ministers). Messrs J. .Paterson, Hood, Fraser, Daggar, and Ramsay (elders). The following memorial was read: — To the Bev. the Presbytery of Dunedin. The memorial of your petitioners showeth 1. That some of your petitioners now are, and some of them were up till recently, members or adherents of the North Dunedin congregation, of which the Kev. A. 0. Gillies is now minister. 2. That it is now matter of common knowledge, amounting to a fama clmnosa, that the state of matters in that congregation has been and is increasingly becoming a scandal to the cause of Presbyterianism. .. ... 3 That your petitioners are of opinion that tno cause of this state of matters Is in a great measure due to the violent and un-Christian temper of the Bev, A. 0. Gillies. , , . , 4. That during the past year sixty-six members have either for peace sake disjoined themselves or been disjoined from the congregation at the instigation of the Kev. A. C. Gillies. . 6 That as a sample of the way in which the Rev. A. 0 Gillies conducts himself, your petitioners submit for the information of the Presbytery the correspondence on the other page hereof marked A. 0 That the Synod of 1887 has instructed the Presbytery of Dunedin to hold an inquiry into tho elite of matters In the North Dunedin congregation, with a view to find out tho cause of the evils which notoriously exist therein. It was therefore prayed that the Presbytery would consider and hold an inquiry into the matter. The correspondence attached to the memorial consisted of letters which had been published in the Evening Stab. Tho memorial was signed by sixty-seven members, forty-five of whom were marked as “disjoined,” and thirty-one adherents, twentysoven of whom were marked as “left.” The following protest was also read from tho members and adherents of the Church: ■

Moderator and Brethion,— It being well understood that certain outside parties Are memorialising thd Presbytery to inquire into the affairs of this congregation, bo it resolved: That we, the officials, members, and adherents of the North Dunedin Church, do hereby protest against the reception of said memorial, and for the following W X fl °That > as we believe it can easily be shOwn, the memorial has been gotten up, hawked about for signature, and largely signed by persons who doinot belong to this congregation at all—if indeed they v-inif, to any Presbyterian congregation, or even to any denomination of Christians—and who therefore have no more right to be allowed to interfere with or be heard in our affairs than we have a right to Interfere with or be heard in the affairs of any other congregation either in the Presbytery or ncighborTEven if persons have signed tho memorial whose names are on our communion roll, we venture to say in advance that for the most part they are parties of little or no use to this congregation—parties, who for months past, some of them perhaps for years, have neither attended this church nor contributed to its support, and some of whom are oven now under process of discipline for non-attendance and nonwho asked for and accepted their letters of disjunction and went voluntaii'y away, some to other churches, and some to wander about, should not now be permitted to renew their interference with us —an interference which nearly destroyed this oongreripens we most respectfully submit that said memorial is incompetent, and that to receive it is contrary to both Presbyterian procedure and common sense.

Dr Stuart moved—“ That the memorial and protest be handed over to a committee of the wisest members of Presbytery, with power to take evidence if they chose.” The Rev. A. C. Gillies said it must be understood that he was not, and his congregation were not, in the least degree afraid of the document read or of those who signed it, or of any document any of the parties could produce. But to avoid being a silent party to what was on the face of it an egregious absurdity to all who knew Presbyterian law, he must move as an amendment to Dr Stuart’s motion—“ That the memorial be not received," for the reason that it was admitted on the document that many of the memorialists were not members of the church at all; That itself killed the documonte The Bev. W. Will moved as a further amendment—“ That the protest is incompetent and cannot be received.” In reply to the Rev. R. R. M. Sutherland as to whether there were any other documents, the Clerk said he had received a letter which the writer wished treated as an addendum to the m After some discussion. Mr Sutherland pressing for the admission of this letter, it was resolved that it was not admissible, the writer being disjoined from the congregation. The Rev. R. R. M. Sutherland then said he would second Mr Will’s amendment. He did not agree that anyone who was still a member of the Church, although not of the congregation had not a right to be heard in connection with matters that, in his judgment, threatened to become a fama clamosa, and were a scandal to their common Christianity. He maintained that any Christian man had a right to go to the church court and be heard on such a matter. The Rev. A. 0. Gillies : Have I a right to P—tiTno that Mr Sutherland is becoming a scandal to the Presbyterian Church? He is B o...min g the whole thing. Possibly I have a right to assume that he is becoming a common BoandaL as perhaps he is. The Rev, R. R. M. Scthebland said he did not assume anything. He only said that m the judgment of this member these matters were a He regretted some of the memorialists bad left the congregation, but they might be able to tell the Presbytery that they had been driven out by circumstances which made it impossible for them and their families to continue longer in the congregation. The Bev. A. 0. Gillies : Street gossip. t The Rev. J. Ryley thought Mr Giffiess resignation should be considered first/ There was nothing in the petition at all. affecting Mr cniips’s character; and if his resignation were accepted they ooulddo nothing. The Rev. w. Will: The Presbytery can refuse to accept his resignation. • lie Rev. J, Ryley did not suppose any member would wish to do that. . The Bev. W. Will said if the resignation ware accepted it would at once close the matter, i Bilt how could they give Mr Gillies a certificate ■ f *ith charges hanging over him which were said Bylet said tho chief; charge JfoMb him seemed to be the newspaper letters, iSdit was monstrous to suppose he could be arraigned upon expressions contained m them. J. Gibb though} there was an ’Understanding that nothing would eventually SteSt against Mr Gillies, to prevent his reoefving his certificate, and therefore to con- ’ ssednded this. Thera cpuld bo /.SSaßßsaaffl;*

ordatin which the amendtoenta should be taken. Ultimately the others were allowed t<) drop,, and Mr Gibb’s, to the effect that the resignation be first dealt with, was carried. '* l i The Eev. A. C. Gillies’s letter of resignation was then read as follows ftev. A. M. Finiayson, Presbytery Clerk. . Sear Sir,— l hereby tender through you to the Presbytery my resignation o( my present charge, and (or the one all-sufficient reason that I have found it impossible to build up a strong, healthy, and satisfactory' congregation of the antagonistic elements given to me. As must be well known to the Presbytery (excepting, of course, a few members who have recently joined us), North Dunedin congregation wailn almost a hopeless condition of dissension whfcn I, unfortunate’}' to myself, undertook it five years ago, and I believe it had been in that condition lor many years before. At the urgent solicitation of some members of Presbytery, and against the warnings of some people in the City, I undertook the congregation in the deplorable state in which I found it, In the well-meant hope that I might possibly unite its conflicting elements. This was a very ssrious matter for a .stranger who had a reputation to make in the Colony. I made the venture, and now regret it. We are all wise alter the event. The amount of misrepresentation I havo already suffered, and may hereafter suffer, to soy nothing of time and other losses, is beyond calculation. But my only hope it that the Judge of all the earth shall do right. If there is any minister in the Presbytery who thinks that he could succeed where I havo (ailed (and there are young and inexperienced men who think they oan do everything but raise the dead), let him try it, and if he succeeds, I shall rejoice. But let no one blame mo until he has tried his hand In North Dunedin, and shown us that he can do hotter. There are men and women in North Dunedin congregation as good as any I have met with in thirty years' travel, but owing to the persistent misrepresentations of outsiders and the significant readiness with which such inexcusable slanders aro believed by people from whom better might be expected, we have deemed it wise to give up the contest. I respectfully ask the Presbytery that -ny resignation take effect on tho 13th inst.—l am, etc., A. 0. Gillies. Dunedin, March 4,1887. The resolution unanimously carried at tho congregational. meeting That although deeply, regretting the step our pastor has decided to take, yet, since he has asked us as a personal favor to acquiesce in his resignation, we hereby agree to do so, and inform the Presbytery acootdidgly.” The Rev. Dr Stuart asked whether it was competent for the Presbytery to receive this statement from Mr Gillies reflecting on North Dunedin congregation and his predecessor. He suggested that Mr Gillies should hand iu his resignation sirn plicitcr, Tho Rev. J. M. M'Kerrow was going to suggest that the letter should be withdrawn, as they could not accept the resignation on such grounds without considering whether the charges made by Mr Gillies were right or wrong. The Rev. A. 0. Gillies said he had no objection to withdraw his letter; but ho never dreamed of reflecting on his predecessor, whom he considered a subject for pity, not reflections. He explained that the Session and a congregational meeting had acquiesced in his resignation at his request, and read the minutes of the meeting. The Rev. J. Kirkland moved, and the Eev. J. Gibb seconded—“ That the resignation be received, and a Presbyterian certificate granted to Mr Gillies in the usual form.” The Eev. R. R. M. Sutherland moved as an amendment—“ That before the resignation is received the Presbytery go, as directed by Synod, to North Dunedin Church and inquire fully into matters there.” From all he knew of the matters in connection with that congregation, they could not, as honest Christian men and ministers, give Mr Gillies the certificate it was proposed to do until they had held an inquiry. The Rev. J. Gibb : That is a reflection upon us. The Rev. R. R. M. Sutherland : I pm entitled to my opinion. The Eev. J. Gibb: You have no right to . express an opinion reflecting upon our Christian honor and the rest of it, and I shall ask the moderator to rule that it is out of order. The Rev. E. R. M. Sutherland said he would withdraw the remark if necessary. But the Presbytery could either have the inquiry or be would protest and it would be for tho Synod to decide. His feeling was if they disposed of the matter now they would be resolving to shut their eyes and send Mr Gillies away without knowing what they were doing. He had heard that the North Dunedin Sabbath schools were to be disbanded, and that periodicals which bad been ordered were to bs sent elsewhere. He understood also that there was something that required looking into in connection with a gift of money made by certain ladies of the congregation to Mr Gillies. —(Loud cries of “Shame.”) Mr A. J. Burns here rose and excitedly demanded that Mr Sutherland should withdraw his remarks. The Rev. \V. Will : I will move that tho Presbytery meet in ririvate if Mr Sutherland is going to be interrupted by those outside the Presbytery. It is intolerable that the Presbytery should be brow-beaten in this manner. The Rev. A. 0. Gillies : I ask if Mr Sutherland has a right to go around the street corners and get loaded with gossip. The Rev, E. R. M. Sutherland : There is a document bearing out what I have said. lam quite in order. The Rev. A. C. Gillies ; He is out of order. He is an old gosaipper. The Eev. R. R. M. Sutherland : These things are in tho newspaper, in the air, in the mouths of all Presbyterians, documents bearing upon them are in the hands of the Presbytery clerk; but the Presbytery say, “Let us shut our eyes, and let us give this gentleman a clean sheet and send him out.” I say let there be an inquiry, and I know that Mr Gillies will come out of this as he does out of everything. We know that Mr Gillies will come out pure and stainless as the snow, and then we can send him off as Christian men with a clean sheet. While these things are in the air I say we are not doing our duty, that is my feeling. A lady here interrupted, and there were loud ciies of “ Order.” The Rev. R. R. M. Sutherland: I move “ That the resignation be not accepted, hut that the Presbytery appoint a meeting at North Dunedin to inquire into all the matters connected with the affairs of that congregation.” I move this on the grounds that it is perfectly clear to us all that matters require looking into, and that the Synod instructed us to look into them. The Rev. D. Bobbie seconded this.

Mr Dagger said that he should like the members of the Presbytery to know that this bitter feeling on the part of Mr Sutherland against Mr Gillies was chronic. He was present at a meeting in North Dunedin Church where Mr Sutherland tried to prejudice Mr Gilliee, The Rev. R. R. M. Sutherland : May I say that I have no feeling against Mr Gillies.— (Cries of “Oh !"’) The Rev. W. Will said that after Mr Sutherland’s speech, and considering tho documents that had been laid on tho table, he did not see how the Presbytery could accept the resignation .until au inquiry had been held, even in Mr Gillies’s own interests. The Rev. Dr Stdaet also held that as the papers were on the table there should be some inquiry before a ministerial certificate was granted. The Rev. J. Gibb asked what advantage could possibly arise from postponing the matter. The charges could be nothing so serious as to prevent tho Presbytery granting a' certificate after all, and it would only have tho effect of creating more scandal. He die] not think that Mr Gillies’s ministry had been successful or that he had been the wisest man in tho world, but he hoped now that they would grant him his certificate and let him go. The Rev. A. M. Finlayson thought that after the fullest inquiry the Presbytery would grant Mr Gillies his certificate, but he supported Mr Sutherland’s amendment. ’ The Rey. J. Ryley strongly supported Mr Kirkland’s motion. The Rev. R. B. M. Sutherland intimated that he would protest and appeal to the Synod if his amendment was lost. The Rev. J. Gibb objected to this, as in the nature of a threat calculated to influence the voting. The Rev, A. 0. Gillies begged leave to say that if Mr Sutherland wanted to annihilate the congregation altogether, he had just to appeal to the Synod and it was done. The Rev, R, R. M. Sutherland’s amendment was then put and lost by 12 votes to 6. The Rev. R. R. M. Sutherland said he should protest, and appeal to the Synod. The Rev. Dr Stuart urged that the minority should be content with recording their dissent. The Rev. B. R. M. Sutherland persisted in his protest and appeal. The Rev. A. M. Finlayson moved and the Rev. J. Ryley seconded that the protest and appeal be disallowed. The Rev, R. R. M. Sutherland said he should protest against its disallowance. They could go on disallowing his protests as long as they liked, but he could go on protesting. The Rev. W. Will moved that the protest be not disallowed. This was lost by 9 votes to 4. The Rev. R. R. M. Sutherland : Then, I protest and appeal against that decision. The Rev. A. M. Finlayson said that kind of thing could not go on for ever, and Mr Sutherland’s lawful course now was to petition tho Synod or the Assembly. The Rev. A. 0. Gillies’s certificate was then granted in the following terms:—“lt is hereby certified in the name and by the authority of the Presbytery of Dunedin that the Rev. A. 0. Gillies was for five years a member of this Presbytery and occupied the charge of the congregation of North Dunedin; that his resignation of this pastoral charge has been this day accepted by the Presbytery, and that the Presbytery express the hope that some useful) and, successful work may be awaiting him in, thel service of the Church wherever in the provi : deuce of God he may be led." The Presbytery afterwards considered the resignation of the elders of the Church, who forwarded the following resolution which had been passed at a meeting held on the 3rd insti:—

In view ef our pastor’s resignation, and the moral certainty that parties who happily withdrew Iron this congregation from time to time daring thelestfew years (and who while here kept this congregation in a most unhappy ■ state of disorder, and that too for years before our present minister was heard of in this .community) will come back after our pastor’s departure and renew the old discords of the past, be It ■ resolved that we now resign, collectively and individually ; ask the session clerk to forward a copy of this ouf.resolution to-the Presbytery; and .that we hereby most respectfully assure the Presbytery that, for tho reasons above stated, on no condition what--&!ss&a?e f ss; saws Sect at the «4,rae ,tlm«.w(jlih',that >pf£onr pastor..

Thomas Bagger) Rohatk M'Craoken, John W. Gilmgjg, D. C. Macdonald, Alexander Burns. ■ On the suggestion pf the Rev, Dr Stoart the elders who were present agreed to withdraw this resolution, And their resignation was considered simpliciter and accepted. Messrs. .Nicholson, Begg (First Church), Fraser, and Mackerras '(Knox Church) were then appointed an interim Session’ to: conduct the affairs of the Church from the 13th inat. The Presbytery then adjourned.