MILITARY SERVICE

Evening Post, Volume CVII, Issue 28, 1 August 1929, Page 9

MILITARY SERVICE

LABOUR REPEAL BILL

REJECTED BY HOUSE

A LENGTHY DEBATE

The fate of Mr. W. J. Jordan's Compulsory Military Service Repeal Bill in the House of Representatives last night was scaled before the second reading division was taken by the announcement of the Prime Minister that he would not allow it to proceed beyond that stage, because the preseut defence law of the Dominion could not be • disturbed pending the substitution of some better system. The division on the motion for the second reading, taken at 12.15 a.m., resulted in the Bill being thrown out by 46 votes to 21. Sev' eral members of the United Parfr voted for the Bill.

Moving the second reading, Mr. W. J. Jordan (Manukau) said the Bill had previously been introduced .by one of New Zealand's most distinguished soldiers—Mr. J: A. Lee, who had been honoured by the King. He urged the Government to give the Bill a free passage in order that Parliament might have an opportunity of giving expression to the opinion of the great majority of the people. He pointed.out that the Bill aid not propose to do away with military service, but only with the compulsory clauses. If the Bill were passed it would still be possible to have a volunteer force. The measure, said Mr. Jordan, was not an attack on any section of the defence force of the Dpminiou. To compel the young' men of the Dominion to go into a uniform was an insult to their intelligence, and was a survival of the days when the cry was "Yours not to reason why." The Prime Minister had seen fit to give exemption to divinity students, but it had to be remembered that there were other students who found that drill interfered with their studies. The question of replacing military drill with physical exercises was one that might be considered, for there was little that was of value in the present system of training. If they encouraged boys to go to camp instead of compelling them to do so there would be little complaint. Great Britain abolished conscription immediately after the war, but Now Zealand carried on despite the fact that the war was long over. New Zealand followed Great Britain in regard to the Singapore Base, but not in regard to military training.

TO CREATE PEACE, THINK PEACE.

Mr. Jordan said tho churches were against compulsory training, holding that thft way to prepare for peace was to think peace. If they thought peace, then they must do away with compulsory .military training. New Zealand was a signatory to tho Kellogg Pact, and the Government had announced its intention of doing everything to further the ideals of the League of Nations. Surely it could not be said that-New Zealand's safety depended on teaching the boys of the. country to form fours and so on. It would be better for New Zealand to pay greater attention to the physical welfare of the young, for maapowor was the big consideration in a war. i Of all the men oxamined during tho progress of tho war only 34 per cent, woro fit for active service beyond the sea without special attention,.and 55.21 per cent, were found to be totally unfit for -service. What was tho uso of training men who would never be fit to leave New Zealand? The money they wcro at.present spending on military training could well be devoted to giving medical and dental treatment to the boys and girls of the Dominion, and if 'the blast of war sounded in ttieir ears " they would have tho nucleus of a very fiuo army. Mr. Jordan asked who wanted tho retention of tho compulsory clauses. Was Great Britain any weaker because it did not have compulsory military training? Mr. W. D. Lysnar (Gisborno) mado an interjection about' the "slacker" not going to tho. war.. ,'■.-. ,

Mr. Jordan: "Tho 'slacker'? WoU tho hon. member for Gisborno didn't go at all Ho was too busy piling up

Mr. Speakor: "Order!" Mr. Lysnar (to Mr. Jordan): "Did you go?" Mr. Jordan: "That doosn't come into it, does it? This honourablo House knows whether I went or not." A Labour member: "He did go" Mr. Jordan: "Well, wo will leavo it ■at that, Mr. Speakor. Certainly, I didn't have wool to pile up while the soldiers wanted singlets for their backs " Mr. Lysnar: "You were fortunate." Mr.. Jordan: "Tho lion, member was too old to go to tho recent war He was not too old for the Crimean War or | the Battle of Waterloo, but he didn't go." (Laughter.) Mr. Lysnar: "I didn't exist then" (Laughter.)

Mr. Jordan also divert on the fact that sinco the Act had been in operation 40,000 young men had been taken before the Courts for failing to render service The figures showed that only b- per cent, of the' young men and boys who were liable for sorvice were giving mitted to the poople; the question was only reasonable to suggest that they should exempt all those who desired exemption. Mr. Jordan expressed the hope that tho matter would not bo made a party question.'

Mr. Lysnar: "You will find it in your programme."

Mr. Jordan: "I didn't hear the hou gentleman,-but I don't suppose I missed very much." ; (Laughter.) Mr. Jordan ! .suggested to-the Primo Minister that the question as to whether there should be compulsion or' not should be subnutted to the poople; tb question was big.onough to justify that course. If there was no compulsion there could still boa volunteer,system which would be sufficient to satisfy those who were anxious for military sorvice. If his Bill were defeated, the time would come when the Government would have to abolish the compulsory clauses of the Act m order to meet public opinion. NECESSARY PHYSICAL TRAINING.

Mr- W- /• bodkin (Central Otago) said he did not think any member of witlA OUSe T M fail t0 b0 with the earlier arguments advanced by m,V tr? a H lU£ ls/P eech. but he pointed out that the Defence Act was serving the dual service of providing aeainst he possibility of war and also |roS g the only compulsory system of physical training m the country. , It would be unw.se to repeal the compulsory Causes of tho Act unless an effective substitute were provided. The State, should have the fullest regard for building up its manpow er and a strong virile* people and it the compulsory system of military training were abolished there toinin^Th g?T a' SCheme of Ph>'sica! tw" defea=e system was worth IS 1' T S .exP°naea °n if it resulted in the improvement of the younomanhood of the country ° in^ Ir-V LyS"f Xpressetl SlU'Prise at hearing it said the question was a nonpohtical one; the platform of the extreme Labour Party included the abolition of compulsory military service. l\ ™' Barnara (Napier): "What party? The extreme Labour Party?" <m I ? a"y (Auokland Central): "Do you belong to it?" Mr. Speaker: "Order." Mr. Lysnar: "Thoie are two classes

of Labour in this Dominion.

Mr. Speaker: "The honourable member is getting away from the Bill." (Laughter.) Mr. Lysnar agreed that it was unwise to keep young men under military training until they were 21 years of age, but the fact that 60 per cent, of the men examined for active service had been rejected showed the uecessity for some system of training. He believed the compulsory clauses should bo relaxed, but not repealed. The Bill was a Labour Party stepping stone to undermining our constitution. (Labour laughter.) Mr. J. O'Brien (Westland): "It is worse than the Meat Board." The limit ago for training should be reduced to eighteen. He hoped the Bill would be put in its proper place by a vote of the House, OVERHAUL OF THE ACT. Colonel T. W. M'Donald (Wairarapa) regretted that Mr. Jordan had not modified his proposals so that he could support it, but the Bill as it stood would do away with the volunteer system as well as the compulsory system. It would cut out rifle clubs, which were doing a very valuable service. On that score ho could not. support the Bill, nor could he support it for the reason that it would abolish the secondary school cadi't corps. He held the opinion that the time had arrived for a thorough overhaul of the Defence Act, and he hoped in the future to, be able to go into the same lobby as Mr. Jordan. Mr. D Jones (Mid-Canterbury): •'You'll be there, all right." • Colonel M'Donald: "Yes, and I'll see the member for Mid-Canterbury in the other lobby. He's always in the wrong lobby." He said tho present defence system' was an absolute waste of public money. He looked forward to the time when the training would be confined to officers, non-commissioned officers, and specialists, round, whom could bo built an efficient army in time of national disaster. It did not take long to train the rank and file, as had been proved during the war. Mr. A. M. Samuel (Thames): "That is wrong." Colonel M'Donald: "That is entirely right." He looked forward to ' the time when the compulsory clauses were removed so far as rank and file were concerned, and he thought the Minister of Defence would have to seriously consider the matter. VALUE OF AVIATION. , Mr. W. E. Barnard (Napier) said to Mr. Lysnar that he was not a particular admirer of Trotsky, nor did he worship at the shrine of Lenin,, but if he believed as Mr. Lysnar did he would not allow the application of the Act to cease when a young man went to work, but continue it even until he had reached the sacred office of a woo] king. The speaker said he had the mover's authority for saying lie was willing to accept the suggostion that rifle clubs should not be interfered with. Our defence system was rapidly being thrown into the melting-pot. Referring to the recent right of exemption for divinity students, he asked why it should not be extended to others who held conscientious objections. How was a Magistrate to determine the value of an objection put forward in tho name of conscience? It would be a tremendous relief if the compulsory provisions were abolished altogother, for then the incessant haggling over questions of conscience would be dono away with. In substitution for the present system, aviation could be encouraged to advantage; thero would bo no need to apply compulsion to get young men to take that up. Captain H. M. Rushworth (Bay of Islands) said that as far as war was concerned ho was a pacifist at heart in contradistinction to his "bloodthirsty colleague, the member for Southern Maori." (Laughter.) Ho was afraid, however, that it would be necessary to keep on preparing for war, and ho believed that one day the. Labour section of the House would be the most militant rnenibors of it. The present military system, however,, was obsolete. Tho most efficient form of defencb was air defence. Seaplanes were necessary, as this country would most- probably have to meet a naval attack. At Home it was regarded as an honourable thing to defend one's country. Captain Rushworth alluded to tho heroic performances of the British Army in tho retreat from Mons. He had had experiences of volunteors and conscripts at tho front, and in a tight corner ho would sooner depend on one volunteer than ten conscripts. In a hospital in Ghent, when he was a prisoner in German hands, he heard n British conscript orderly openly bragging that he had taken the first opportunity of hopping over to the German lines. His only regret was that ho could not got at the man. The Bill would not pass, and he resented any attompt to attach party labels to it, but he would vote for it.

Tho Rev. Clyde Carr (Tiniaru) saia that if they preparod for war they would get war. We should cherish tho belief that wars were ended.

A voice: "But Couoism has failed."

Mr. Carr quoted opinions freely in denunciation of war, and said that if Britain disarmed to-morrow it would be the finest possible gesture for peace. If we declined to passively resist .mother nation it would not be possible for that nation to imposo its civilisation, its will, and its culture upon us, however much it did. Ho eneourageu the suggestion that training in aviation would be a sufficient defence precaution. NO CHANCE FOR BILL. While tho Prime Minister (tho Right Hou. Sir Joseph Ward) was speaking (his. remarks being reported under separate headings), Mr. Jordan asked whothor Sir Joseph would allow the Bill to proceed beyond the second reading. "No, certainly not," replied the Prime Minister, "because we have si system of defence which is tho law of the country." He said tho country had to havo a defence system of some kind. All countries in the world had some system of defence. He hoped ho would not be Prime Minister if armies all over tho world were abolished) because the displacement of so many men would add to the 'unemployment problem, which had been a very cruel one in New Zealand. Ho wanted to know what the disbanded soldiers would do. Mr. H. E. Holland (Buller): "If everybody became Christian it would bo a calamity, then?" Mr. K. Semplo (Wellington East): "Put them to useful work tilling the soil."' Sir Joseph said there were millions of men serving as soldiers in the armies of the various nations, and to disband them suddenly would certainly create a difficult problem in finding work for them in civil avocations. Mr. Barnard: "What a condemnation of the present system." Sir Joseph said that that might be so, but it was a problem that required some thinking to get over. A DIFFERENT ATMOSPHERE. The Leader of the Labour Party (Mr. H E. Holland) said he had been struck by the changed atmosphere that pervaded the Chamber now, compared with the atmosphere of a fow years ago, when few spoke in favour of the Bill. A number., of speakers had supported drastic changes in the military training system. Mr. Holland said the Bill was aimed to remove the compulsory sections of the Act, and if anil when the measure reached the Committee stages, tho mover would be prepared 'to accept amendments to meet the wishes of those who had objected to the abolition of rifle clubs and so on. He agreed that the causes of war were largely economic, but in spite of that, warn were always described as attacks on certain countries. Wars belonged to the atmosphere of the jungle, and not to the atmosphere of these days of enlighfcr enment. By adopting a system of com-

pulsion New Zealand was following in the footsteps of Germany in the days of Kaiserdom. It was an amazing thing to hear it laid down that while it was wrong to kill an individual it was right to kill a million. Mr. Holland referred to the many boys of the highest possible ideals who had been dragged before the Court under their militaristic law These boys had been deprived of their civil rights, but a criminal of the worst type when once released from prison was able to at once enjoy his full civil rights. Surely that was a sufficient condemnation of the law as it stood to-day. Mr. Holland said the Government was adopting an "extraordinary attitude in refusing to recognise the conscience of any but divinity students. There had never been an occasion when the people of a country would not fight for that country if it was worth fighting for, and it should bo their aim to see that New Zealand was worth fighting for. Mr. J. S. Fletcher (Grey Lynn) said he would vote against the-Bill so long as military training was necessary in the interests of the country. Other countries had not abolished their armies. Not so long ago the Labour Party was extolling Sovietism in Russia, but at the moment Russia was making an aggressive war in China.

Mr. P. Waite (Clutha) said every re turned soldier was an advocate of peace, but if a country was worth living in it was worth fighting for. The fact thawar would affect every family in tin community was one of the greates; guarantees they could possibly have oi peace. It was all very well to talk ofdeveloping aviation, but the fact wap that aeroplanes could not defend a country or protect the trade routes. The volunteer system had been weighed in the balance and found wanting. Mr Waite discounted the oft-repeated state ment that one volunteer was worth ten conscripts, and assured the House that a conscript could be a very nasty custo mer. He did not believe that the younr men of the country were against military training. Mr. W. E. Parry (Auckland Central) • "Would you be in favour of a referen durn?" Mr. Waite: "We'll have a referen dum in a few minutes, and then we'l be on-side." He thought the preseni system was sound in principle. ■ Further speeches were made by Messrs. R. Semple (Wellington Bast) J. S. Fletcher (Grey Lynn), C. H. Clin kard (Rotorua), D. M'Dougall (Ma taura), P. Fraser (Wellington Central) and G. C. Munns (Roskill). Mr. M'Dougall supported the Bill! "If you have the right to take me, you have the right to take-my money," he said. He. said that military trainees often went to drill and afterwards went to a brewery and consumed a keg of beer until 2 o 'clock in the morning, and thus made themselves unfit for work the next day. Mr. Lysnar, replying to a remark made by Mr. M^Dougall, gave a de-nial-to the statement that he.had held his wool during the war. There waa not a scintilla of justification for the statement. He did not hold a bale of wool during the war. It was long after the war that he had done so. Mr. Clinkard urged that the present military system should be gone into, as it was causing great dissatisfaction. Mr. H. R. Jenkins (Parnell) supported the Bill. Ninety per cent, of the mothers of the country, ho said, would be behind tho Bill. STOLEN PROPAGANDA. Mr. P. Fraser (Wellington Central) twitted Mr. Fletcher with,having made use of United Party propaganda—propaganda which had been stolen holusbolus from the pages of the book prepar ed by Mr. James on behalf, of the Reform Party. The younger members of tho United Party had apparently taken the propaganda seriously, and Mr. Fletcher had dropped a bomb on to the floor of the House. I Mr. E. J. Howard (Christehurch South): "It was, a'dud.' " : '■■ So, far as the Soviet was concerned, I Mr. Fraser said ho was one of those who rejoiced in tho collapse of Tsar dom, and he had hoped against hope that a democracy would arise in its ' place. Instead of that there had arisen an autocracy which resulted in the sup pression of free speech and the freedoir of the Press. Mr. Munns said that ho would vote for the Bill. If Territorials liked mili- ! tary training, as Mr. Waite declared, then they could bo depended upon to be good volunteers. j The motion for the second reading j was defeated by 46 votes to 21, the ■ division list being as follows:— ' Ayes (21). —Armstrong, Barnard, Carr, Chapman, Eraser, Hawke, H. E. Holland, Howard, Jenkins, Jordan, Langstone, M'Combs, M'Dougall, M'Keen, Martin, Mason, Munns, O'Brien, Parry, Savage, Semple. Noes (46). —Ansell, Atmore, Bitchenor, Black, Bodkin, Broadfoot, Campbell, Cliukard, Coates, Cobbe, Dickie, Donald, Field, Fletcher, Forbes, Hall, Hamilton, Harris, Healy, Hogan, H. Holland, Jones,. Kyle, Linklater, Lysnar, M'Donald, Macmillan, Makitariara, Massey, Murdoch,'Nash, Ngata, Poison, Ransom, Samuel, Smith, Stallworthy, Sylces, Taverner, Veitch, Waito, Ward, ' Wilkinson, Williams, Wright, Young. Pairs.—Against the Bill, Wilford and Stewart; for, Sullivan and Rushworth. I