PENSIONS SYSTEM

Evening Post, Volume CVIII, Issue 15, 17 July 1929, Page 10

PENSIONS SYSTEM

EMPIRE RECIPROCITY

URGED BY MEMBERS

BISCUSSION IN HOUSE

A discussion on the pensions system took place when the Pensions Report was brought down in the House of Representatives yesterday.

Mr. A. M. Samuel (Thames) referred to anomalies in the system respecting miners' pensions. To qualify for pension, miners had to be totally incapacitated. The pension amounted to £1 15s a week for married men and £1 5a a week for single men, which he considered totally inadequate for the men concerned to maintain themselves. He argued that a pension was paid in lieu of salary or wages, and he had thought one of the first acts of the Minister would have been to wipe out the anomaly referred to, for he knew the. Minister was sympathetic. Ho asked if the problem had been considered, and whether there was any intention of rectifying it this session. Mr. Samuel also raised the question of pension for a wife with an invalid husband. He maintained that the taxpayers would not object to such a pension being paid, and no matter what was the financial Condition of the country, it should make some payment in such cases. Instances had arisen where applicants for the miners' phthisis pension had been turned down, because of a conflict of medical opinion. He urged diagnosis of such eases from a practical point of "view by medical men with experience of the disease. It should bo a recommendatiou to the board that the evidence of local doctors and thoroughly qualified men should be taken into account when a decision is being arrived at as to attributability. Mr. Samuel ■urged that more elastic provision should be .made in the matter of- granting pensions to people who own property. He also claimed that old age pensions should be made reciprocal throughout the Empire. In regard to returned soldiers, Mr. Samuel urged that attributability of war service should be taken into consideration in the matter of claims for pensions. Any soldier developing a complaint in the least due to the war was entitled to consideration. Ho knew of the promises-made to the soldiers when they went to the ■war that the home fires would be kept burning, and ho hoped that justice would be done to the returned men at the hands of the country they fought for. . MUST BE REVIEWED. The Minister of Defence (the Hon. T. 11. Wilfo/d) said that there was no difference of opinion as far as the Government sido of the House was concerned that the whole pensions system must be reviewed in the near future. That must be done wholeheartedly by the Minister of Pensions, in conjunction with tho Minister of War Pensions. Roughly speaking, there were 12,000 men on the books of the War Pensions Department (10,000 permanently disabled, and 2000 temporarily disabled). He saw a lot of problems arising, even in the six months that he had been Minister in Charge of the War Pensions Department. Ho had noticed that a blind soldier, because he was receiving a small income from money invested, lost the allowance that otherwise he would get for his children. The law should be altered. lie could not give any decision but to uphold the law, yet he realised tho position. Mr. Samuel: "Will you have that altered as soon as possible?" The Minister: "I think the thing should be done in one big Bill. I cannot give an answer myself, but I shall make my recommendations. Cabinet will decide the policy. The Minister of Pensions and I are working whole heartedly together in this direction." Mr. Wilford said that nothing had been decided yet in regard to reciprocity in pensious between Britain and New Zealand, but last week ho had given the matter '.'one big push forward." Reciprocity must be brought about in the near future. The former Minister of Pensions (Mr. Anderson) had spent two years in considering the whole pensions law, and had made some move forward, but a great deal had to be dono yet before any proposals could be brought before tho House. The Minister of Finance had to consider tho matter from his point of view. In regard to the question of attributability where returned soldiers were concerned, Mr. Wilford said that while lie did not know what the practice of the last Government had been, since he had been in charge of war pensions lie had issued instructions that the local doctors who had been treating cases should give their opinion before decisions were reached. The' Government was seriously tackling tho pensions question in all its aspects. In regard to attributability, he was unquestionably in favour of the local practitioner being called in, and as fan as reciprocity was concerned, he was doing his best to bring it about. Mr. W. B. Parry (Auckland Central) said that he thought it would be .a fitting thing for the House to permit the report to go without discussion, particularly in view of the assurance they had had from the Prime Minister that the legislation dealing with the problem of pensions was ready. There ■would be ample opportunity later on to discuss the question. - Mr. T. Makitanara (Southern Maori) referred to the case of certain Maoris who were prohibited from participating in the benefits of the old age pension, owing to tho restrictions in regard to property. There were many Maoris who had property,.but were not receiving one penny pieco in revenue. He thought the Minister should consider an amendment to the Act to meet such cases. Mr. A. Harris (Waitemata) instanced a ease in which the father and mother of four, young children had died within two days, and as a result no provision was made by the State for the children. That was an anomaly which should be removed. Mr. 11. S. S. Kyle (Riccarton) said he was sure the present Minister of Pensons was sympathetic towards old-age pensioners. Mr. Kylo expressed the iiope that more generous treatment would be meted out to old ago pensioners and returned soldiers. He went on to refer to the manner in which the .Keform Government had liberalised the whole pension system. Mr. F. Langstone (Waimarino): "It was squeezed out of you." AN OBJECTIONABLE LETTER. Mr. S. G. Smith (Taranaki) made a plea for the restoration to the Taranaki Province of something of real value, which he said had been taken away. The whole of the pensions for Taranaki, said Mr. Smith, were controlled from a sub-office in.Wanganui, and as the result of loss of personal touch by the respective registrars under the new arrangement there.had been nothing but trouble and annoyance to pensioners. I want to make a public appeal to the Minister," he said, "for a new type of method and a more kindly spirit to be used in these cases. 'J "lie cited the case of an old lady pensioner who had £24 in the Post Office Savings Bank, which she was keeping to pay her own funeral expenses. Her circumstances had been reported on on more then ten oecasiona. Last winter she was ill and she drew from her account £6 3ox medicine and clothing. She received from

the Pensions Office a letter asking for urgent information as to whether she still had the money she had drawn out, whether it had been used, and if so for what purpose. Mr. Smith submitted that that sort of letter should never have emanated from a Government office. In another case a woman acquired a home for herself by dint of hard work. She had 25s a week war pension on account of the loss of two sons, and she also received £23 10s a year old age pension. She supplemented her income to the extent of 3s a week sweeping out a church, and by reason of that her pension was reduced by 3s a week. Mr. Smith said these were only two of many similar instances. He made a plea for the appointment of a registrar in Taranaki, who would be in a position to know the exact position of pensioners, instead of

relying on information supplied by others. The speaker advocated au increase in the pension to Maori war pensioners, and said he hoped a more humanitarian view would be taken of the question of ex-soldiers' attributability.

Mr. H. Holland (Christehurch North) considered that the whole Act should be remodelled on sympathetic lines. He quoted instances of hardship that had come under his notice where pensions had been reduced because the pensioners had tried to earn money to supplement their pensions. Mr. P. Fraser (Wellington Central): "Surely the hon. member does not blame the Department? Isn't it the law?" Mr. Holland: "Yes, it is the law; the law wants altering." Colonel T. W. M'Donald (Wairarapa) twitted Eeforin members who had spoken with having voted against pension increases when the Reform Government was in power. Mr. G. R. Sykes (Masterton): "You will have that experience." Mr. Kyle': "Bring down legislation to amend the anomalies and you'll see where we are."

Colonel M'Donald stated that the Reform Party would be judged by what it had done in the past, rather than by what its. members said to-day. Apparently it was the function of the Opposition to . oppose always. The speaker urged that.the bar .to widows earning more, than a stipulated amount in order that they might be eligible for a pension should be removed. The widow should be able to earn a higher amount, or the pension should be increased. He favoured the .payment of an invalidity pension to. keep'from starvation a person who could not work by reason of illness.. . The .question of. attributability as affecting returned soldiers should be taken in hand. He favoured more consideration being given to blind people, and thought that there should be Empire reciprocity in regard to soldiers ' pensions.

Mr. E. J. ■ Howard (Christehurch South)-did-not see any need to carry on the debate in view of the statement thcyvhad had from at least one Minister that tho whole pension system should be re-organised. Mr. Howard said he did not think the will of Parliament was being carried out by the officers responsible for the administration of the law: • Heraised objection to the practice' of making use of the police in uniform' to' carry out inquiries regarding pensions matters.

Mr. C. E. Macmillan (Tauranga) expressed the hope that an endeavour would bo made to deal w"h the pensions problem in a comprehensive manner this session, and ho would like an assurance from the Government that that would be done. He was anxious to see an all-round increase in pensions. Mr. F. Lye (Waikato) put in a plea for elderly people who owned sections of laud but derived no revenue from them. Amazement was expressed by Mr. G. C. Munns (Roskill) at the change of front made by members of the Reform Party on the question of liberalising tho pensions. It passed his comprehonsion. Reform members: "You'll soon learn." (Laughter.) Mr. W. A.' Bodkin (Central'Otago) said it was illuminating to find a member of the Opposition placing it on record that now for tho first time in years they had a Government which would do the right thing for the poor people. Mr. D. Jones (M(d-Canterburv): "Who said that?" Mr. Bodkin: "Tho member for Thames." Mr. Samuel had admitted that tho time was opportune for changes to be made, aud the reason for that was that in the present Prime Minister they had the father of the old age pension scheme. That was a sufficient guarantee that at the proper time, and in good time, tho whole pension system of the country would be reviewed.

Mr. J. T. Hogan (Rangitikei) said the Minister could take it from the nature of the debate that the House was almost unanimous in regard to the matters that had been raised, especially in respect to an increase in the old age pension. COST OF MEETING CLAIMS. Replying to the discussion, tho Minister of Pensions (the Hon. W. A. Veitch) said tho debate showed that private members had many distressing cases before their notice, but ho assured them that he also had received many complaints of anomalies. It could not be said that the system could not be improved. Parliament had extensively improved the legislation, and it was just to say that notwithstanding all disabilities, New Zealand had a pensions system she could be proud of. In proof of his assertion that the pensions law was being sympathetically administered, Mr. Veitch said that during the past year pensions had increased by 1£113,----204. Against that amount deductions must be set off amounting to £.5211, leaving a net increase in pensions expenditure of £108,053. This country could afford the money, he said. It had not been the policy of tho Government to cut down expense;! by withholding pensions payable under tho law. Touching on the question of reciprocity with other countries in the matter of pensious legislation, the Minister said ho had been in correspondence concerning the matter, but nothing had been finalised. Even if agreement had been reached the Government would have to seriously consider tho financial position before coming to any decision. The ideal would be reciprocity between all portions of tho E-jipire, but that could not be regarded as a practical proposition for the moment, as the cost would bo far beyond the resources of this Dominion and other countries within the Empire. The fact that there was now a new Government in tho Old Country might _or might not mean that they' might take up a different attitude from their predecessors in regard to reciprocal pensions. If all the proposed increases in pensions asked for that afternoon were given effect to, tho cost could be staggering, and he would not say there was any possibility of that being done iv the near future. The Government must take the responsibility for making pensions advances according to the circumstances of the day Of all fbo improvements that were being demanded, the one that most appealed to him was the invalid pension. It seemed to him to be possible for police to make pensions inquiries in plain clothes, and he would see if that could be done. He would inquire into the caso as affecting the payment of pensions to Maoris. It was not the intention of the Government to economise at the expense of those requiring pensions. Attributability was a most important question, both in regard to soldiers and sufferers from miners' phthisis, and he would give that matter sympathetic attention.