THE LICENSING BELL

Evening Post, Volume CVI, Issue 55, 14 September 1928, Page 6

THE LICENSING BELL

SECOND READING CARRIED FAMILIAR ARGUMENTS EMPLOYED MAJOR BATTLE TO COME The Licensing Amendment Bill was discussed at great length in the House of Representaties last night. Mr. Coates moved the second reading, and the debate which followed covered much of the same ground as was traversed last year, and when the measure was introduced on Tuesday night. The second reading was agreed to without division, but many members indicated that during the Committee stages they would move or support amendments which accorded with their own particular views.

Mr. Coates said it was hardly necessary for him to make a long speech, aa the events of last year were fresh in the minds of members and the mattor had been well discussed in the Press. He suggested that speeches should be curtailed so that the House could get down to details. The first provision in the Bill proposed an increase in tenure, which was warranted in order to try to get better hotels. If an increase were agreed to an improvement ought to be looked for. At present licensees', were continually faced with elections^ and' the. position was hopeless. While that state of affairs existed he did not see how an improvement could be : expected. There were cross-currents, he knew, but he thought that in the interests of the country the matter should be; looked at from the broad standpoint,. and a long view taken. He did' not intend any monetary gain to tie made by an increased 'tenure, and he:did not say that the hotels were bad; but there was room for improvement. . THE THIRD ISSUE. The question;.'of the issues on the ballot-paper was important, and on this he thought-.there was much misconception. He had stated at last olection that ho favoured three issues, but he had not been asked then whother he favoured an extension of tenure. He had been a supporter of the three issues, but had now changed his mind. '<".' ' Mr. T. M. Wilford (Hutt): "You j leave us no alternative now." Mr. Coates replied . that the third issue was used for misleading the community, and he considered that there would be no satisfaction until the people had the right to say whether there should be liquor or no liquor. Mr. Wilford: "Fifty-six thousand votes were cast for it last year." "Yes," replied Mr. Coates, "but how long has it taken to work up to 56,000?" Mr. W. S. Glenn (Oroua): "It represents moderate thought." Mr. Coates replied that the vote on the third issue was small compared with the total vote cast. The people had not asked for the third issue. Mr. W. E. Parry (Auckland Central): "What about giving State Control a ran with Continuance alone — two issues?" Mr. Coates said he knew there was room for any amount of difference of opinion on; the r question, and it was not a pleasant matter to sit down and draft a Licensing Bill and then meet the members he had to meet in the House. (Laughter.) However, he was responsible for the Bill and was prepared to sit and listed to all the good things that could be said about it and to receive bouquets from the Opposition, (Laughter.) He thought the Bill would go through. Mr. O. W. Forbes (Hurunui): "Do yon hop* aot" "I km not a pessimist," replied Mr. Coatee. "I have not been running around the country saying that it has gone to pieces. I have told them that it has turned the corner. I know the honourable gentleman is in a dismal mood; he may be brighter, to-morrow night than he is now. I'wish him all sorts of luck. I have a friendly feeling for the honourable gentleman, and would sooner do him a good turn than a bad one." , , Mr. Coates said he knew he would be told that a big section of the community was being deprived of an opportunity of voting for State Control, bnt it was not a live issue. He favoured giving the people an opportunity of saying whether they favoured Continuance or Prohibition. Mr. J. M'Combs (Lyttelton): "Yon want «■ absolutely free vote." Mr. Coatee: "I don't follow the hon onrabto gentleman." "IT'S LOADED." Mr. Wilford: "You are very wise not to, it's loaded." (Laughter;) Mr. M'Combs: "Do you want a straight-out issue, with a free vote?" Mr. Coates: "I have never known the honourable gentleman ask a straight-out question." Mr. Wilford: "Loaded." Mr. Coates: "Yes, loaded every time. I thought he meant something more than a straight-out issue." Proceeding to refer to the question of the majority, Mr. Coates said he was afraid that unless the question , was settled by a definite majority those who would be responsible for the administration of the law were going to be faced with many difficulties. It was just a question as to how many people would keep the law if Prohibition were carried by a slender majority. He thought the experiences of America could be taken as a guide for New Zealand. Mr. Wilford: "They teach us what not to do." Mr. Coates: "That might be. quite a fair■ construction to place on it.'.' The Prime Minister said Parliament would have to accept responsibility for what happened in the future. Mr. W. D. Lysnar (Gisborne): "That's what they are not doing." Mr. Coates said he did not say that Prohibition would be brought about under a bare majority. In fact, he did not think that Prohibition would be carried if there was a simple majority. Mr. J. A. Lee (Auckland East): "There might be a civil war." (Laughter.) Mr. Coates said they did not want the day to arrive in New Zealand when people would be proud of the fact that they had broken the law. They had had an experience of that sort of thing when tho anti-shouting law was passed. ■Mr. V. H. Potter (Boskill): "But tho law was never enforced." Mr. Coates said in the interests of the people of to-day and in the interests of the people of to-morrow they should be very careful how they dealt with the majority question. Ho suggested that the majority should not bo less than 6S-45. Mr. Forbes: "How about 6040?" Mr. Coates: TNb, I think my suggestion is quite a reasonable one." Mr. Potter: "Would that majority make the people more law-abiding?" Mr. Coates: "You can't make people Law-abiding by legislation if they don't want to observe it, but if it i 3 decided by a substantial majority I think the j people will say: 'Very well, it's decided, and we'll give it a go.' " The Prime Minister said if they could remove the question of liquor or

no liquor from the arena of practical politics, for a time at any rate, it would be all for the good, because there was a danger that the question would dominate and overshadow very very important questions. Mr. J. A. Lee: "It is always a big issue, even where there is no referendum." Mr. Coatcs: "That is so." He knew that the course he was suggesting was the only safe one. Whero Prohibition had been tried it had been followed by some change. Mr. J. A. Lee: "To State Control." Mr. Coates said that had been so in some cases. The financial aspect was important to consider, although the country was improving. In any great social change they must see where they were going. Mr. Coates said that he did not see any use in quoting what had resulted in ' other countries, as members were familiar with the facts. Mr. W. D. Lyßnar (Gisborne): "Oh, give it to them again." (Laughter.) Mr. Coates said he would be pleased to hand the figures to Mr. Lysnar to use. "This is a good Bill," proceeded Mr. Coates, "but I don't know what it will be like when honourable members have finished with. it.".-. . Mr. J. A. Lee: "It will be a case for stretcher-bearers." Mr. Coates said he would ask members to pass a Licensing Bill this year, and believed that it would be in the interests of the country to do so. In regard' to boundaries, these were often cut about at all .angles Just to take in a hotel. That: seemed-to' him to be wrong, and he! thought hotels should be allowed to stand where they .were now. Mr. Coates then explained the various clauses of the Bill in detail. In regard 'to the registration of barmen, which proposal was opposed, he maintained that it would make for a better observance of the law. Mr. P. Fraser (Wellington Central): "Who, asked for it?" ' Mr. Coates: "The Minister in charge of the Bill." Mr. Fraser: "You are not making it a vital point?" Mr. Coates: "I think it is a good point. I know that people who have a knowledge of the Trade think it is a good idea." Mr. H. T. Armstrong (Christchurch East): "Why not extend it to shop assistants, then?" Mr. Coates replied that that was not the same thing. He thought the barmen would be only too pleased to be clothed with more authority than they had now. The Police Department considered that it was desirable that barmen should be registered. Mr. Bartram: "They would like to have everyone under their thumb." Mr. Fraser asked if Mr. Coates would receive representations from the barmen on the point. Mr. Coates replied in the affirmative, but said that Mr. Fraser might like to bring the 1928 Committee along. (Laughter.) The Leader 6t the Opposition (Mr. H. E. Holland): "What do the 1928 Committee think about it?" Mr. Coates said that Mr. Holland appeared to be in the confidence of that body, so he could not say. Mr. Holland: "I think they'll be somewhat divided." In conclusion, Mr. Coates commended the Bill to the House, and said he thought that its passage would mean an improvement in the law. A WASTE OF TIME. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. H. E. Holland) said if he thought there was any intention of putting the Bill through he wouia discuss it seriously, but he doubted whether anybody thought the Bill would; become law. It was a waste of time for Parliament to discuss it at all. The Bill wag in a most peculiar position in that it was not a party measure but had nevertheless been introduced by Goyernor-Gen-eral'a Message. " The. difficulty in regard to the issues and the majority could have been 'overcome if the Government had brought down a oneclause Bill providing for three issues, with preferential voting. He would not be a party to disfranchising any section of the community. Mr. Holland suggested that' licensing polls should only be held when a' stated percentage of the people made a demand for such a poll. He predicted that when the Bill came to be considered in detail the very same thing would happen as happened last year in regard to all the main, proposals, and after the measure had been through both Chambers it would be in such a mutilated form that the Prime Minister would not recognise it. Mr. Holland said he considered it was peculiar for the Prime Minister to say he was optimistic about getting a Bill through providing for a two-iSsue ballot paper when it had been admitted that 100,000 ballot papers had been printed. If they were printed in accordance with the law, they must contain three issues. That showed that there was no intention to pass the Bill. The Government could not be relieved of the charge of insincerity in bringing down a Bill of this kind under the circumstances. What did the Prohibition members of tho Beform Party think of that? What sort of a trap had been set for their unsuspecting feet? If the three-issue ballot papers were not to be used, why had they been printed? They should not have one method proceeding bohind tho backs of Parliament and another proceeding in the House. He did not think the barmen would mind registering with the Labour Department, but they would object to registering with the police. Mr. T. M. Wilford (Hutt) said that as a result of his observations abroad he was satisfied :that Prohibition was not temperance. In America, Prohibition was temperanco between drinks only, and the law there had done great harm to the youth of the country. In Canada, men who had fought for Prohibition had subsequently fought for iti repeal. That had been the case in Ontario. His travel had taught him that Prohibition was un-British and that it was not tho cure for intemperance. The Bill did not give those who disliked either Continuance or Prohibition a chance of saying what they wanted. He detested casting a vote under the Bill for issues which he did not favour. Eeforms in the Liquor Trade had to come, and if the licensees did not clean up their own stable Parliament would have to do it for them. Ho protested as a New Zealander against being made an extremist in such a matter as the two issues which the Sill provided for. Ultimately, he be-

lieved, that America would return to light wines and beers, although the saloon had gone forever. Social reforms could not bo carried and enforced on a bare majority. At a subsequent date he proposed to deliver an address on the farce of Prohibition in America. "I am an apostle of temperance," concluded Mr. Wilford, "and I hate Prohibition." "POSITION HOPELESS." Mr. W. B. Lysnar (Gisborne) said it was to be regretted that the Bill had been brought down, and he thought the Prime Minister had been ill-ad-vised. Tho majority of the members of the House wero tied to the No-license Party, and the position was hopeless. He appealed to tho members to come back to the House after the election absolutely unpledged to any party on any question. Mr. H. T. Armstrong (Christchurch East): "What about summer time?'* Mr. Lysnar: "Oh, we're not consider- j ing that. That's trivial compared with the licensing question." He did not think all tho speeches in tho world could influence any votes in the House. Mr. J. E. Hamilton (Awarua): "Why bother, then?" Mr. Lysnar: "Because I think the pledged members should be exposed. Somebody pulls the strings behind and they are tied up." (Laughter.) Prohibition was no restriction at all, and did not lessen evils of drink. There was more liquor going into No-license, areas than ever before. Prohibition had proved a failure in America, and had increased crime very substantially. Mr. Lysnar said he did not agree that the State Control issue was confusing the electors in any way. He did not think Prohibition would ever be observed, and a law that was ignored was worse than, no law at all. They had to look after the school children. . Mr. Potter: "Free beer in the schools at 11 o'clock." Mr. Lysnar: "The hon. gentleman might like to go there for the freo beers, but I wouldn't, go across the street for them." He objected to the churches advocating Prohibition from their pulpits. "I left my church because they preached Prohibition to me," said Mr. Lysnar amidst laughter. "I went back once, but I found there was a lay preacher... there who preached Prohibition, so I didn't go back again.'" (Laughter.) ■■■':■• Mr. J. M'Combs (Lyttelton) said he did not propose to discuss America or anything like that. Mr. Lysnar: "Well, you'd better, because it will be a lesson to you." Mr^ M'Combs said Mr. Wilford had paidH brief visit to America and Canada, and he (the speaker) preferred to believe statements of men who had been born in America and had lived there all their lives. The Prime Minister had objected to a three-year poll, but every political- question came-up f6r review every three years, and he* saw no objection to the licensing'issue being in the same category. Mr. Coates was also afraid that Prohibition might be carried by one vote witß a simple majority, but the same could' easily apply with an artificial majority. One of tho best members of the House had been elected by one vote at tho last election. (Loud laughter.) ' The Leader of the Opposition: "And a most modest member." Air. M'Combs agreed. The .artificial majority would mean a handicap of 75,000 to the Prohibition Party. The Prime Minister was trying to put back the clock and go back to the days of 1918 and before, when the artificial majority obtained. The proposal was tantamount to establishing a system of plural voting, and would give a hotel loafer more voting power than the most reputable citizen in the country. FOR THE PEOPLE. Mr. F. N. Bartram (Grey Lynn) said he believed that, taken generally, tho hotels were well conducted. If the Trade was to be managed decently, it should as a matter of fairness be given an increased tenure, but tho people should be given an opportunity to say what the tenure should be. "The Prime Minister," he said, "has deliberately flouted the democratic right of the community." Parliament was to take the right out of their hands. In regard to the third issue, he said that the proportionate increase for State Control had been greater than for either of. the other issues. He protested against' being debarred of the right to vote as his conscience dictated. The Prime Minister: "Has the lion, gentleman got his tongue in his cheek?" Mr. Bartram: "My tongue at the present moment is enunciating the principles of truth and justice. (Laughter.) That kind of argument is exceedingly paltry on a great subject liko this." He suggested that the 56,043 voters for State Control at the last poll were liquor voters because they recognised that the demand for liquor was legitimate. .'. . ; Mr. C. E. Bellringer (Taranaki) said he hoped the hotels could be improved without increasing the tenure. The Leader of the Opposition was dodging the issue when he said that because he believed the Bill would be thrown out "in another place," he would oppose it here. 'Mr. Bellringer said he would give his vote as a matter of duty. He would support the two-issue ballot paper. He declared he had seen a circular which" 'had been issued amongst the clubs urging support for, the State Control issue, because it would add weight against Prohibition. Mr. H. T. Armstrong (Christehurch Bast): "Who issued the circular?" Mr. Bellringer: "The hon. gentleman knows quite well." He would vote for the second reading, but in Committee support such amendments as he thought would make for necessary improvements. "ONE-MAN GOVERNMENT." The Right Hon. Sir Joseph Ward (Invercargill) was surprised that Mr. Coates should have said that the member of the Cabinet knew what was in the Bill. If that was tho case it was a very wrong practice to follow and would convey the impression that I this was a one-man Government. It was also wrong to have such a spectacle as was witnessed last session, when members of the Cabinet were publicly attacking their own Prime Minister, who was thus placed in an invidious position. By consulting his colleagues the Prime Minister would be able to gain an impression as to how far he would be able to go. In his last tour through Canada he had not seen a drunken man. He was opposed to the elimination of the third issue. Replying to Mr. A. Hamilton (Wallace), Sir Joseph said that ho believed the people should have the right to vote on the question whether they wanted light wines and beers, as to his mind that would be .the solution of the trouble. Sir Joseph deprecated the giving of secret pledges either to tho Prohibition Party or the Continuance Party, and said at tho last election he refused offers from both sides. He liked the proposal for an interval of six years between polls, and said it might, bo applied in other directions, such as the election of members.' "It would be a happiness to come back and sco members safely hero for six years," said Sir Joseph. He agreed that a substantial majority was desirable on such a question as Prohibition. Mr. A. M. Samuel (Ohinomuri) referred to tho intemperate remarks of the . temperance member for Taranaki (Mr. Bellringer), Mr. Bellringer had made all.sorts of charges against Ohiuemuri, but if ho made such statements in tho district it was difficult to say how ho would come out. (Laughter.) Conditions in Ohinemuri had been far from satisfactory under no-liconso, and that was the reason why restoration was carried. He hoped before the Bill was finally disposed of some definite conclusion would bo reached on the majority question. Borne of the Pro-

hibitionists liad told him they would be prepared to accept a majority of G2i per cent. If there was a simple majority there would bo a danger of Prohibition being carried one poll and Continuance the next, and that would make for economic instability. The Licensing issue should not be allowed to loom so large on the political stage. Mr. D. (i. Sullivan (Avon) said if the Prohibition Party accepted any sort of artificial majority they would be loading the dice against themselves. If those who favoured State Control were to have the right to have their issue placed on the ballot-paper, then the same right should bo granted to other schools of thought, such as those who wore in favour of Corporate Control. Mr. Sullivan said both the Democratic and Eepublican Parties of America had steadfastly declined to include in their platform a plank in favour of the repeal of the Volstead Amendment. "ALL THORNS AND POINTS." Mr. W. E. Parry (Auckland Central) urged the retention of the third issue, which had been put on the ballot paper with the consent of the Prohibition Party. He voted State Control on every occasion. Mr. Parry likened the Licensing Bill to a porcupine—all thorns and points. (Laughter.) All the vital points which were disturbing the minds of the members of Parliament should be referred to the people for a decision one way or another, and should not be left for political parties to wrangle over. Mr. H. Atmore (Nelson): "This House is ignoring the last mandate which the people gave it." Mr. Parry: "That is so." Until they secured a definite mandate from the people there would be wrangling. "I have been a moderate drinker all my life," said Mr. H. G. Dickie (Patea). A Labour member: "Naughty, naughty." (Laughter.) Mr. Dickie expressed the view that Prohibition had been a success in America, and there was no wish to repeal tho Eighteenth Amendment. Mr. M. J. Savage (Auckland West) said he preferred to diacuss the matter from a New Zealand point of view. If the Prohibition Party adopted preferential voting it would get the decision it wanted. There had been lack of stability, but there was only one Minister who was prepared to stand up for the Bill. Mr. T. Forsyth (Wellington East): "Is your party united on the measure?" Mr. Savage: "I am not discussing our party, I am discussing the Tory Party, and they don't seem to know where they are." Mr. Atmore: "Where will the Ministers be?" Mr. Savage: "Voting against the Prime Minister." No authority had been given, by tho people to remove the third issue from the ballot-paper. He hoped tho law would stand as it was at present until the people demanded a more democratic form of voting. The people should be asked by referendum what they thought about the ballotpaper and the question of tenure. PEOPLE SHOULD BE CAESARS. Mr. Atmore considered it to be an absurd position for the Prime Minister, the man who claimed to got things done, to bring in a Bill about which ho. admitted that he had not consulted his colleagues. The fact and the people giving an increased rope. for State Control showed tha*t they did not want Prohibition, and yet members of Parliament who called themselves representatives of the people, now wanted to narrow the issues down to two. The people should be the Caesars of tho occasion, and be able to choose which way they were to go. It was an expensive farce that was being staged, and the Bill was a piece of political trickery. The fact that 120,000 ballotpapers with three issues on them had been printed showed that there was no intention of passing the Bill. Mr. T. Forsyth (Wellington East) said lie was opposed to the State Control issue being included in the ballotpaper, and said he was fortified by tho picture which Sir Joseph Ward had painted of conditions existing in Canada. Mr. Porsyth quoted figures showing the enormous increase in the consumption of alcoholic beverages in Canada under a system of State Control. The bottom had fallen out of the argument that Prohibition would result in an economic loss to the country. Mr. Forsyth expressed the view that every candidate for Parliamentary honours should be prepared to state his views on tho social questions of the day, and he did not know why the suggestion of secret pledges had been made. He had pledged himself to vote for the Government in a no-confidence motion. Mr. J. A. Lee: "Couldn't they, trust you without it?" Mr. Forsyth said every member oi the public knew his views on tho Licensing issue, and he did not expect to get the vote of the Trado. He had not received it at the last election, but it had gone to the Labour candidate, ana he supi posed it would again.' . Mr. Parry: "They'll be voting for a good man." Mr. J. A. Lee (Auckland East) reminded Mr. Forsyth that he had once voted against a pledge. When the Leader of tho Opposition, out of a feeling of good fellowship for Mr. Forsyth moved a certain amendment, Mr. Forsyth ran away. Mr. Forsyth: "That is incorrect." Mr, Lee said that ,the Reform Party members were accustomed to voting against their pledges. The Party had a plank providing for free, secular, and compulsory education, but the most of the members of the party voted against it. The Hon. A. D. M'Leod: "Would you let that go to a vote of the people?" Mr. Lee replied in the negative, and said that a recent visit to the King Country had increased his doubts, as to the efficacy of Prohibition. Ho found that the good fellows—not tho wasters —perambulated from "homebrow joint" to "home-brew joint." Eeplying to tho debate, the Prime Minister said that he was opposed to preferential voting on any such question as the Licensing. Tho country generally would welcome a vote on two issues. Many Prohibitionists wore opposed to anything but a substantial majority, and hundreds of them said the Bill was all that was required. The House would do the country a very good turn by passing the Bill. A Labour member: "It is as good aa through." The Prime Minister: "I would not say that, but it has a very good chance." Mr. Armstrong: "It is in the lap of the gods." The Bill was read a second time on the voices.