THE LICENSING LAWS

Evening Post, Volume CVI, Issue 54, 12 September 1928, Page 8

THE LICENSING LAWS

BILL BROUGHT DOWN SIMILAR TO LAST YEAR TWO ISSUES, 55 PER CENT. MAJORITY A preliminary skirmish over the licensing issue took place in the House of Representatives last night when the Prime Minister (the Right Hon. J. G. Coates)' introduced the Licensing Amendment Bill. The measure is on much the same lines as the Bill of last year, inasmuch as it contains provision for a two-issue ballot paper and a 55 per cent. majority. The debate on the introduction of the Bill, which was read a first time, continued for two hours.

In committee on tho introduction of the Bill, Mr. J. M'Combs (Lyttelton) asked whether tho Bill was on tho same lines as the Bill of last session, and whether it provided for a two-issue ballot paper and an artificial majority. Also whether the Government intended to give Parliament an absolutely free hand to place on the Statute Book this -session such legislation as it desired. Mr. G. W. Forbes (Hurunui) asked whether the sharp divisions of opinion shown last session in the Eeform Party had been reconciled, and whether any compromise had been reached between those who had been so definitely divided on tho question. Mr. F. Waite (Clutha): "They're united now." If not,, Mr. Forbes remarked, ho doubted whether it would bo wise to go on with the present BilL If the Bill was the same as that of last session, the Tsame result could be expected, and the time of the House would be wasted by going on with it. They should try to obviate ill-feeling at the end of the session. . Mr. Waite asked whether the Prime Minister had any direct knowledge as to whether the United Party, both inside and outside tho House, was absolutely united in regard to tho Licensing Bill. (Laughter.) Mr. J. C. Bolleston (Waitomo) wished to know whether any provision had been made for taking a referendum in the Kohe Potae in order to remove the present unsatisfactory position there. NOT THE SIMPLE MAJORITY. The Prime Minister (tho Eight Hon. J. G. Coates) said that generally speaking the Bill was on the same lines as that of last session. There were,, however, certain amendments which more or less coincided with the amendments agreed to after the Bill came from the Legislative Council last session. As to whether an artificial majority was proposed, the principle embodied in the Bill was not the simple majority. The Leader of the Opposition: "Is this a Government measure?" Mr. Coates: "No." Mr. Holland: "Notwithstanding that it was in the Governor's speech?" Mr. Coates said tho BUI mi the result of a promise made by his predecessor in office, supplemented by himself later. It gave effect to the promise that a Licensing Bill would be introduced, and Parliament must deal with it as it thought fit.,... Mr. Holland: "Will the Government see the Bill right through, notwithstanding what changes are made?" Mr. W. D. Lysner (Gisborno): "That depends on how you behave yourself." (Laughter.) In reply to Mr. Forbes, the Prime Minister said that the Government was not introducing the BilL It was a nonparty measure, and that was well understood by everyone outside of Parliament. He believed it was deliberately misunderstood by members who thought there might be a chance to make some party advantage. Mr.'Holland: "You are getting nasty." Mr. Coates: "Not at all. Whether it is worth while or not is not altogether the point. .A great many people outside Parliament have asked that Parliament should have an opportunity of dealing with the licensing question during this Parliament. That, I think, is the main, question that concerns most members in the House. The mere fact of trying to ran around the hurdle does not count for. much; It is a question that many members would like to leave alone. The country is entitled to an opportunity of seeing where members stand on the question, and I think every hon. member in the House recognises that position* I don't wish to refer further to the Leader of the Nationalist Party," he added, "because I can quite see that he is in difficulties. Someone has suggested that the problem so far as his party is concerned might be cleared up on Friday next, but I doubt whether he will make much headway] there. As to this side of the House being divided, it is obvious they are divided. The members have their own opinions, and they are entitled to express those opinions as they think fit." In regard to the taking of a referendum in the King Country, Mr. Coates said that he had an amendment drafted in order that Parliament might have an opportunity of expressing its opinion in the matter. Members would also have an opportunity to express their opinions in regard to several other points which had been brought up outside Parliament. Mr. A. Harris (Waitemata): "It is a two-issue ballot paper, I hope." "A VERT GOOD ONE." Mr. Coates replied in the affirmative, and added that personally he thought the Bill was a very good one— better than any Bill which had been introduced to Parliament previously. Mr. Forbes: "Better than that of last year?" Mr. Coates: "Yes, even better than that,- and it would take some improving. .It is a better Bill than the one that came back to the House- last session,'and it is an improvement on the one I introduced." (Laughter.) The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. H. E. Holland) said he would not say a word about the Bill at that stago if there were a real intention in the mind of the Prime Minister to sec the legislation through.' His own opinion was that it was just a hood-winking piece of legislation, and that tho Prime Minister was only fooling the Prohibition and the Liquor interests. (Cries of "Oh.")1. "Tho Prime Minister knows," said Mr. Holland, "that he has decided already that it is to be a three-issue ballot paper. I know that the Prime Minister has decided that." Mr. Coates: "Where does the hon. gentleman get his information?" Mr.' Holland: "I will tell the Prime Minister when I am ready to do so." He said he was prepared to agree to a three-issue ballot paper subject to the preferential system of voting. The Prime Minister brought down a proposal for a two-issue ballot paper, and wanted the House to believe he was serious in doing so. Mr. Holland said ho did not know what arrangement the Prime' Minister had made with either the Prohibition or the Liquor Parties, but whatever promise he had made it was just a net spread to get them tangled up when, the poll came on.

When tho Bill was finished with, ho bolioved it would be in exactly tho samo position as at the end of last session. Mr. J. A. Lee (Auckland East): "Let's hope so." "TO FOOL BOTH SIDES." Mr. Holland suggested that as an easy way out of the difficulty the Prime Minister should bring down an amendment to the Licensing Act providing for preferential voting with a threoissue ballot paper, but the Priino Minister did not propose to do that. Mr. Holland also suggested that only Government measures should bo forecasted in the Governor's Speech. He also expressed surprise that Mr. Coates had introduced by Governor-General's Message a Bill which Mr. Coates had said was a private one. That was another tangle. "My main point," he said, "is that this Bill is simply to fool both sides." Mr. J. M'Combs (Lyttelton) said that so far as the Prohibition Party was eoneerhed no arrangement had been made with the Government. The party had always stood for the right of the people to decide tho question on a free and unfettered vote. Personally, he thought it was time the question was taken out of politics, and the only way to do so was to give it into tho hands of tho people and lot them decide. ' The Hon. A. D. M'Leod: "Will that tako it out of politics?" Mr. M'Combs said that ■while the people liad been given an opportunity for many years to voto on the licensing question, they had never yet been given a straight run by Parliament. They had been hampered by restrictions such as the three-fifths majority handicap. Deputation after deputation had asked the Prime Minister to remove the present unfair handicap, and his reply was to bring down a Bill which trebled the handicap and inflicted further wrong on democracy in the interests of a vicious monopoly. "I wish to protest," said Mr. M'Combs, '„' against the way this Parliament has continually thwarted tho will of the people and tried to prevent them from controlling an admittedly dangerous traffic." He declared that tho Labour Party was the only party in the country which was propared to givo a fair deal on the licensing question. Mr. A. L. Martin (Eaglan): "And the Country Party?" Mr. M'Combs: "I am reminded of the Country Party also." (Laughter.) Preferential voting, he declared, was the only system that would give a fair deal. Mr. W. D. Lysnar (Gisborne) thought it was a pity that a discussion had arisen at that juncture. There was a good deal of guessing going on, and it was not really known, what the position was in regard to tho Bill. He said ho crossed swords with tho previous speaker in his contention that the House was thwarting the will of tho I people and that tho No-License Party was the only party which gave a square deal. If there was any party in the Honse which stopped the people from getting a square deal it was the NoLicense Party. They blocked every effort for remedial reforms, which were j seriously required. He regretted_ that an effort was being made to stir^ up party strife; the Leader of the Nationalist Party and the Leader of the Opposition had tried to do so. "I am tired of this humbug business of NoLicense," declared Mr. Lysnar; "it has been on the Statute Book long enough and everyone knows that where Prohibition has been given effect to in this Dominion no good has come from it, and it has increased the drinking." The whole principle of the thing, he said, was wrong. The drinking laws were analagous to the gambling laws; they knew gambling was going on everywhere, and so it was in regard to drinking in Prohibition areas. The Prime Minister wonld have been better advised if he had not brought the Bill forward. He could not alter his colours to agree to what a majority of the House agreed to. Members must hold to the pledges they had made outside the House. The electors should return members who were free to vote on the licensing question as they thought fit. Mr. P. Fraser (Wellington Central): "Are you free?" Mr Lysnar: "I am free, and always intend to keep myself free." _ The Licensing people asked mo to sign a pledge and I declined to do so. tie =aid tho Prime Minister would be well advised not to have given any promise to bring down another Bill this session. Mr Lysnar said he was not aware ot any compromise having been arrived at since last session. ACCORD WITH INTENTIONS. Mr J A. Lee (Auckland East) said he believed that theßill did represent the intentions of tho Prime Minister and that if he could give effect to it, that he would place it on the Statute Book. He also knew that an overwhelming majority of the- Reform Party disagreed with Mr. Coates's attitude, and that when' it came to a division they would do their best to prevent him giving effect to the intentions which he had outlined in the Bill. It was absurd to suggest that the Prime Minister should be asked to put the Bill right through, because while he might start out wholeheartedly in favour of it he might have to end up wholeheartedly opposed to it. He regretted that the Prime Minister had brought tho Bill down again. It would be absurd to suggest that the Primo Minister, or the leader of any other party, could determine how his followers would vote on any clause in the Bill which was not a clause that was covered by the programmo of the party. He would vote against the Bill at the beginning, in the middle stages, and finally. Mr. W. S. Glenn (Eangitikei) said that although ho had not seen the Bill he would vote for it at the beginning, in the middle stages, and finally. Mr. M'Combs, the most biased man in the House on the subject, had deemed it necessary to make two speeches on the Bill's introduction, and had tried to belittle the Primo Minister. So long as he was convinced that the Bill was an honest effort to improve the licensing laws he would vote for it, and he commended the courage of the Prime Minister in introducing it. Tho Leader of the Opposition had suggested that the Prime Minister was trying to fool the House, but ho would like to ask Mr. Holland who he was trying to fool. Mr. Holland knew that ■■ a majority of the House was against preferential voting, but ho was trying to fool the whole lot.

Mr. Glenn regretted that the Leader of tho United Party was trying to create dissension. Mr. Forbes knew that in introducing tho Bill tho Primo Minister was fulfilling a promise. Ho hoped that when discussing tho Bill members would be reasonable. No great change could be made in social customs unless there was a substantial majority behind it. "Be reasonable,'* urged Mr. Glenn, "and not have all this twaddle about a democratic majority." (Laughter.) Mr. W. B. Parry (Auckland Central) said Mr. Glenn had condemned Mr. J. A. Leo for saying that he would voto against tho Bill, even though he had not seen it, but Mr. Glenn was apparently willing to voto for it without seeing it. Mr. Glenn: "I took the Prime Minister's word for it." Mr. Parry said Mr. Glenn would bo kept busy keeping his party in step in regard to the Bill. The speaker said |he would voto against tho Bill on its i final reading. His desire was to see a tlice-issuo ballot-paper with a preferential system of voting, but every time a schemo of preferential voting had been put forward tho Prohibitionist members had voted against it. And yet they complained of undemocratic methods of voting! POSITION IN CANADA. The- Eight Hon. Sir Joseph Ward (Invcrcargill) said that he had come back to Parliament at an interesting time. Ho agreed with the Prime Minister that the matter was a non-party one, and remarked that it had been so ever since he coulfl remember. Sir Joseph stated that in Canada there was no Prohibition issue, but liquor was dispensed at Government stores at certain hours of the day. The Government in Canada had netted over £4,000,000 from the sale of liquor, and he had been told that the system would never be altered. Tho majority of the people of Canada wero now out-and-out State Controllers. Spirits ißjero sold at a much cheaper rate in Canada under the now system than under the old. One Saturday morning he had seen one man purchasing six bottles of whisky. The Minister of Lands: "Ho must have been going across the water." (Laughter.) Sir Joseph: "He was going inland." Mr. Coates: "Into the ice and snow?" Sir Joseph: "He was going inland, and was going to stay'there till Monday." (Loud laughter.) Sir Joseph said the licensing problem in New Zealand would not be settled for another fifty years. A number of strong Prohibitionists were strongly opposed to a bare majority on the licensing question because of the turmoil it would cause at the succeeding election when an endeavour was made to get the drink back again. He was coming to the conclusion that the time had arrived when light beer and light wine should be made available for the people of New Zealand, for vthat was the only way to temperance. He did not think they could ever do away with alcohol, but its control should be in tho hands of some organisation which could secure no immediate advantage from its sale. Mr. Forbes said Mr. Coates had fulfilled his promise to bring in a Bill last year. It was extraordinary that another Bill should bo brought down, therefore, because the promise ol Mr. Coates's predecessor had been honoured. In saying that he intended to vote for tho Bill all through Mr. Glenn must know what was to be done in regard to it. ' Mr. F. N. Bartram (Grey Lynn) congratulated Sir Joseph Ward on having gained so much valuable information when abroad. He was not going to say whether he would support the Bill or whether he would oppose it, but if it was the same Bill as last session he would oppose it. He agreed with Sir Joseph that- the sale of light beer and wine was desirable. "ONLY A FLUTTER." Mr. Coates said lie did not know that any good would be served in prolonging tho discussion. "For one thing, the many valuable expressions of opinion wo have had are not going into 'Hansard,'" said Mr. Coates. "I think that's a pity." "Oh! This is only a flutter," said Mr. Bartram. Mr. Coates went on to refer to an interjection made by Mr. Martin in regard to the Country Party and preferential voting. "The member for Eaglan has assured us that the Country Party will support preferential voting," said Mr. Coates. Mr. Parry: "Ho didn't say that." Mr. Coates: "Oh, yes lie did." Mr. Martin: "I said it was in the platform of tho party." Mr. Parry: "I think it's very unfair." ' Mr. Coates: "Unfair? I don't think anyone could have been m'oro unfair than the Loader of the Opposition was. Tho member for Eaglan was able to tell the member for Lyttelton what the Country Party would do." Mr. Martin: "It's in the Country Party's platform. It's been published." Mr. Coates: "I am glad to have that information." BELIEVES IT WILL PASS. Mr. Coates said he believed that the Bill would go through this time. If he thought there was no chance of getting it through it would not be introduced, but he believed that there was a reasonable chance of getting a Bill through which would give a measure of satisfaction. He thought . every member of Parliament would be glad if he could have the question ' out of the way at next election. No one would bo more anxious for that than the Leader of the Opposition and the Leader of the Nationalist Party. . . • A voice: "Who is he?" Mr. Coates: "I didn't say the United Party. I said the Nationalist Party." (Laughter.) He thought the tactics of the Leader of the Opposition were unfair. Tho Bill expressed the speaker's own independent opinion. Not one of his colleagues had seen the Bill, and no member of Parliament had seen it either. That morning a member had asked him what was in it, and he had replied that it was on,the game lines as last year. The Bill expressed the speaker's own view, and apparently almost half the opinion of the House if the votes cast last year were any indication. Mr. M( Combs had asked him if ete'ry member of the House would have a free hand, and ho thought he had replied that such would be the ease. Mr. Holland had said that if Parliament altered the Bill from tho form in which it had been introduced tho speakor would only be humbugging Parliament. Mr. Holland: "I never said that." Mr. Coates: "You said 'humbug' several times." Mr. Holland had said that the speaker had fooled both sides. That was Mr. Holland's interpretation, but Mr. Holland wanted to get some party advantage out of it. "KNOW WHAT HE KNOWS." Mr. Holland: "No. I know what the Priino Minister knows —that the Prime Minister definitely made up his mind that three issues shall be on the ballot paper." Mr. Coates: "I have made up my mind that two shall be on the ballot paper.'' Mr. Holland: ''I know different!'." Mr. Coates: "1 will tell die hon.gentleman that he is deliberately misleading me." Mr. M'Combs: "You can't say that." At the request of tho Chairman of Committees (Mr. F. F. Hockly), Mr. Coates withdrew this remark. Mr. Holland said that he held to what ho had said. Ho said what lie did advisedly. Mr. Coates: "I deny every word the hon. gentleman said. The hon gentle-

man must accept that. Ho has to acCejlr. lHollana: "I know what I know." A CHALLENGE. Mr Coatos: "The hon. gentleman knows what ho knows, but I challenge him here and now or anywhero olso in tlds country to say what he knows. That challongo holcls goonMr. Holland: "All right. ' Sir Joseph Ward: "Let'i get HX y6o'ate( sL S aatlS M, M'Combs had suggested allowing Parliament a froo hand. Ho took it that Mr. Hoilniicl knew the opinions of Mr. M< Combs. Would that bo satisfactory toMr mHollana: "Will tho Prime Minister allow tho Bill to go through in tho form in which the Houso finally d°Mr. WCoates: "What other alterna"The Prime Minister might do what ho did on another occasion—ho might drop it." Mr Coatos: "That is quite possible. If he did so, any other member couia take it up. (Hear, hear.) If Mr M'Combs represented hi's leader's point of view, how was it, then, that Mr. Holland desired to make it a party question? , Mr. Holland: "I don't desire to make it a party question. It is not a party question. I have not suggested it." Mr.' Coates: "If I made it a party measure I would be in the position of disappointing the member for Lyttelton. How can I deal with a party in which there is a division of opinion?" WILL OF PARLIAMENT. Mr. Holland said he did not think that the Prime Minister could bo allowed to get away with that kind of argument. Everyone knew that it was not a party matter. If the Prime Minister brought such a Bill down there was no sense in wasting tho time of Parliament and the country's money unless ho was prepared for it to go on the Statute Book. There was only one way of doing that, and that was by insisting that the will of the people's representatives must be obeyed. It ought to be the duty of tho Government to see that the Bill went on tho Statute Book as finally dealt with by the House. Mr. Coates: "You are changing your ground now." Mr. Holland: "I have never taken up any different attitude. My point is that tho Prime Minister introduces this Bill knowing that ho has no intention of lotting it reach the Statute Book. I have made the statement about two issues, and that he has decided to allow throe issues on the ballot paper. Voices: "You have no proof." Mr. Holland: "I will produce it when the time conies." Mr. Coates: "I challenge you." Mr. Holland: "In my own tiuifc." Mr. Coates: "Produce it now." Mr. Holland: "The Prime Minister knows what tho proof is." Mr. Coates: "You are only bluffing. That is humbug." Mr. Holland said that he was not prepared to take the third issue off'tho ballot paper, but he wanted preferential voting. Mr. Glenn emphatically denied that he knew what was in tho Bill. Tho only conversation he had had with tho Prime Minister took place that morning. Mr. Coates had stated what took place. Mr. Parry: "And on that you said you would vote for it." SECRET PLEDGES. Mr H Atmore (Nelson) said it was rather amusing to hear tho Prime Minister say he could not deal with the Opposition, because there was a diftcrence of opinion in its ranks. How much more difficult it must bo for him to deal with his own party, for there was no reason to believe that any change had come over tho opinions of tho majority of tho Eeform.Party since last year. At the last licensing poll Continuance was carried by 36,000, yet they had a Parliament which was predominantly Prohibitionist. That, he believed, was the result of tho secret pledges which were given. Eeform members: "No, no." Mr. Atmore: "Hon members who interject should get up and make a speech and not content themselves with "No, no.'" Mr. Atmore said members, instead of expressing their own opinions, should give expression to tho voice of the people. The Prime Minister had not always been an favour of a two-issue ballot papor, but had stated in his own electorate not so long ago that he was in favour of three issues. Tho Prime Minister said'so many members had expressed his (the Prime Minister's) opinions that ho hoped there would be no misunderstanding. ' < The Leader of the Opposition has not been frank to-night," said Mr. Coates. "It is not sportsmanship. He says he knows I am in favour of a three-issue ballot paper. Well, challenge him to prove it." Mr. Holland: "It will be proved all right." Mr. Coates: "The member for Nelson has referred to a statement I made in my electorate in regard to the number of issues. I admit at once I did support the three issues. I want to say, however, that so far as the third issue is concerned it had little public support in comparison with the other two issues. Generally speaking, the third issue was looked upon as a red herring across the trail. The main issue is whether there is going to be Prohibition or not." Mr. J. A. Lee: "Who wants Prohibition? —Only the Prohibitionist organisation." Mr. Coates: "Oh, no." Mr. J. A. Lee: "What other organisations?" ■ Mr. Coates said that once the question had been settled definitely one way or the other on a two-issue ballot paper a Bill could be brought down that would make a definite move towards the reform or improvement of the liquor business. Mr. M(Combs: "You are in favour of the people settling it." Mr. Coates: "On that question." Mr. M(Combs: "On a perfectly free vote?" BABE MAJORITY RISK. Mr. Coates: "On a vote. I think it would be mighty dangerous to try to administer a law which was carried, say, by one vote. I think you must have public opinion behind you. That is in the interest of everybody. Now in regard to preferential voting, if it comes to that I am going to say no. We are not going to be caught that way, thank you very much."