MINISTER IN TROUBLE

Evening Post, Volume CX, Issue 52, 29 August 1925, Page 13

MINISTER IN TROUBLE

AN OBJECTIONABLE TERM

SCENE IN THE HOUSE

LITTLE INFORMATION, BAD HOURS, AND TALK.

Three-quarters of an hour were taken up in the House of Representatives yesterday afternoon in members protesting against the Government not giving sufficient information as to what classes of the Estimates were to be taken, and in deploring th» late hours they had talked themselves into sitting. Early in the discussion a lively interlude occurred with the Minister of Health.

When the Customs class, the first of ths day, was called on, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. O. W. Forbes) rose to protest against the Opposition not having been informed as to what items were to be taken. The only notice they had had that Customs were to come on was when the Chairman of Committee* called the class from the Chair. Membera were there to discuss the business intelligently,, and he thought it was high time that some alteration was made in the method of procedure.. It seemed to him that the Government was afraid to have criticism raised against the Estimates, as it knew the public was awaro of the euormous increase in expenditure that had taken place. He considered that it was better to have the Estimates thoroughly discussed and examined by the House. There was no doubt that the Opposition had a function to perform in regard to the Estimates and the business before the Houne, and it had a right to have information given to it. He considered it to be his duty to make the protest. At this stage the Minister of Health (the Hon. Sir Maui Pomare) entered into the discussion, and was responsible for a scene.

"SNIVELLING GEORGE" " I cannot understand the hon. gentleman," said Sir Maui Pomare. "He was snivelling from the time he stood up until the time he sat down. I think I may christen him-' Snivelling George.' Mr. R. Masters (Stratford^: " -There is nothing funny about that. ' " You're a full-blooded Maori, remarked Mr. H. "Poland (Ohinemuri) to tho Minister, " and a # dirty one at that" An hon. member was overheard to remark: ":You dirty cur." " Apologise," called out a> number of Opposition members to the Minister. The Chairman of Committee (Mr. J. A. Young) said that if the Minister had said' anything of a personal nature he must withdraw. Members: "And apologise, too! Mr. Poland said he did not think the withdrawal of the«words was at all «uffl. cient.' They had not been used in the heat of the debate, but deliberately and in cold blood. . Sir Maui Pomara (to the Chairman): " I think you have ruled." The Chairman: "I have ruled that the words be withdrawn." ! Sir Maui Pomare: "Which I did. Asked by the Chairman to repeat what ha had said, Sir Maui Pomare complied. ' - The Chairman: "He must not only ■withdraw those words, but express regret for having used them. The Standing Orders are very strict in this respect, and lay it down that language of- that kind is most disorderly. If w» allow that sort of thing to gooofn f we don't know where we will get to. Mr. G. Witty (Riccarton):.'" He can t •nivel again." (Laughter.) . Sir Maui Pomare: "I will •withdraw the words and apologise. _ The words were not used in any insulting manner. It was not perniciously said. It was said with a smile, -which is usual with me, and I think anyone who knows the relationship existing between the hon. member for Hurunui, and myself would say, if asked for his opinion, that it was not meant offensively." Mr. W. E. Parry (Auckland Central): " That explains a good deal!" Sir Maui Pomare said i\ had been the immemorial custom of the House to take the Estimates in the way proposed that afternoon. He could never remenv ber.a time when Mr. Forbes had ever objected to the method before, even when he was on the Government benches. The Estimates had been before the House for three weeks, and surely members had had plenty of time to study the items, so as to be able to speak on any of them intelligently. NOT ENOUGH SLEEP Mr. W. A. VeHch (Wanganui) said the Minister had remarked that he could not understand Mr. Forbea. There might be' a very good reason for which the Minister was not himself responsible. The protest. of the Leader of. the Opposition was dignified. During the whole of the . present week the House had been driven very hard—he said '• driven " advisedly. - He did not think members had average five hours in bed on any night during the week. " Here we are," said Mr. Veitch, " fitting up on Friday when we need to be wide awake with the hon. gentleman, in charge of the House."' The Prime Minister : " That isn't fair." Mr. Veitch said he thought there was reason and justice behind the protest. He could s?e no reason why the House should have been driven so hard. So far as the Opposition was concerned, 'thero had been no attempt to retard the business of the House unnecessarily. There had been criticism, but that was the Opposition's function. On behalf of both sections of the Opposition he thought he could say that there had been no attempt to retard the business. " This is a long-suffering Opposition," remarked Mr. Veitch, " and we don't complain, until we have strong ground for complaint," . . " I think it is about time we got down to the Estimates," said the Prime Minister. No other course had ever been adopted so far as acquainting the Opposition of what items were coming on was concerned. " I know that it is long custom* that the- Leader of tho Opposition must put up a protect," continued Mr." Coates. It is part of the tradition. It has to be done."

Mr. Forbes asked the Prime Minister if ha thought it was Reasonable that the system about which complaint was being made should bo continued. "I think ii is a vory dangerous thing to knock down the pillars of the Constitution, or custom, replied the Prime Minister, amidst laughter. "While it is annoying to the Government that we should have time taken up in protests, •wo have to put up with it. I know the hon. gentleman has not been Leader of the Opposition, very long, but I think ho has got through the preliminaries and got over the first few furlongs in good style. I wish him luck." (Laughter.) Mr. Coates said he was absent from the House when it adjourned early that morning, otherwise he would have informed the Leader of the Opposition of what classes it was proposed, to take. H« had been following that pr*otic» tim lefties, Jhftd it jw

the first time it had been done. Had the Leader of the Opposition called on him at his office he would have told him what the business was to be.

Mr. E. A.-Ransom (Pahiatua) : "Will it always be available if we go to your office?"

"Oh, no, certainly not," replied Mr. Ooates, "the Leader of the House co»----trols the business, not the office."

Mr. F. Langstone (Waimarino) : "Why not have a syllabus, then wo would know where we are."

Mr. Coates read out a list of items which he thought could be passed at that Bitting, and said ho thought the Estimates could be disposed of in about two more days. The Government, however, had been unfortunate in not being able to get some of tho departmental, reports on to the table.

"PRIME MINISTER OPTIMISTIC"

"The Prime Minister Is optimistic _if he thinks he will get through that list to-day, and still moro optimistic if he thinks he will finish next Friday," declared the Leader of the Labour Party (Mr. H. E. Holland). He could not understand why the business of the House could not be systematised so that it would be possible to forecast two or three days ahead what' was going to come on. Tho Prime Minister had made a new departure in giving information when the House was rising, but that was not enough. The House had not adopted sane methods of procedure, and tho long hours it sat were a disgrace to it and to tne country, j Mr. D. O. Sullivan (Avon) protested against the ridiculously long hours which the House was working at that stage of the session. A good deal of the business had been transacted without a quorum in the early morning hours this week. Ho knew that thafc was permissible bo long as no one drew attention to it.

The Chairman of Committees said he could not let that remark go. If attention were drawn 10 the lack of a quorum, then business stopped. That had not occurrej.

"I accept your reproof," replied Mr. Sullivan, "but if you ask me to agree that the statement I have just made is incorrect, then I am not prepared to admit that." He had not cast any reflection on the Chair. :Ii a record were made of the number of hours worked after midnight this »ession it would be found to be considerably iv excess of the average: * Mr. Coatfis : "Members havrs to thanlc themselves for late hours, no one else. Talk, talk, talk!" Mr. Langstone: "We ure here to talk."

"Exactly," replied Mr. Coates, "and they do talk when they come here"!" Mr. Langstone : "We talk sense on these bench e»."

Mr. Coates : "I think that all hon. members can take a certain share of responsibility. It is not the work we have done, it is the talk wb have had. For three-quarters of an hour we hays been talking, and we huve not touched the Estimates. It is almost another record."

"You have had tnrpo 'gops' thi3 afternoon," broke in Mr, Langstone, amidst laughter.

Mr. Coates : "No, I am endeavouring to throw some oil on the troubled waters. . . . Personally I do riot think it is necessary to have long discussions on the Estimates. The less discussion we have the better."' (Laughter.) "LEGISLATION BY EXHAUSTION"

"I can remember the time when we used to protest against legislation by exhaustion," said Mr. T. K. Sidey (Dunedin South). "We have got to that ttage this week." "A point of order. Is the hon. member dealing with Customs?" asked Mr. J. 8. Dickson, Chief Reform Whip, referring to the class of the Estimates supposed to be under discussion. Of course," observed Mr. Masters, "bad customs."

The discussion dropped. / '