PUBLIC OWNERSHIP

Evening Post, Volume CVI, Issue 15, 18 July 1923, Page 5

PUBLIC OWNERSHIP

DEBATE IN THE COMMONS

SOCIALIST EMOTION DEFEATED

LABOUR ATTACK ON CAPITALIST

SYSTEM.

(UNITED PRESS ASSOCIATION.—OOPIRIGHT.?

(AUSTRALIAN - NEW ZCAIAND ; CABLE ASSOCIATION.) LONDON, 16th July. Sir John Simon (Liberal) resumed, the debate on Socialism, initiated oh 20th March on Mr. Philip Sriowden's resolution: "That, in view of the failure of the. capitalist system to adequately utilise and- organise natural resources and productive power, or to provide the necessary standard of life'for vast numbers of the population, and believing that the cause of this failure lies in the private ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, this House declares that legislative effort should be directed to the gradual supersession- of.^the 'capitalist system by an industrial and social order based oh the' public ownership and democratic control of the instruments of production and distribution." . ■ . ' ■

Sir John Simon said he was as much alive as the Labour members to the evils of. the existing, system, but he • believed the evils were to be avoided not by dstroying the system root and branch, but by controlling the . operations for the public good. There was no guarantee that the supersession of capitalism .would provide employment for ev-ery-uy V He I"oted Queensland, where the Labour , Party. had introduced a wide scheme of nationalisation,' and the •railways, sifter five years, showed a deficit of one and a -half millions, while m 1921 Queensland had more Unemployment than any other .country in the world. Under a . Socialist system the workers would be deprived of the right to. strike: 'Sir John Simon' could: hot see 1, now, under Socialism, they could avoid conscription of labour, including penal labour institutions, for those who refused to do the work assigned them 1-heir mam object must be to humaiiise industry, and that could best be dons l>y legislation placing the .public needs and human rights before private' interest, and not by sapping the energies or undermining the liberties of • the British people.' .' . '

"UNPARALLELED POVERTY."

Mr. J. R. Clynes (Labour) said Sir John Simon s speech was inspired by tiie head, hot by-the heart. .The pro-gress-made so 'far in human affairs had been made in spite of the capitalist system. They had unparalleled poverty in the country. Millions -of wage-earners were in a state of hopelessness, insecurity, and slavery. There was probably more wicked and wanton extravagance to-day than ever before. Mr Clynes claimed that wherever State •.ownership had been tried with the consent and-goodwill of 'the-people it proved, a success. ■

Mr. Edward Gren| 6 1l (Conservative, City .of -London).' declared' "the "ca'canny principles recommended to BritMhTS by «>«*'!«*** "ad contubuted as much as anything to the present position. ■ F

DANGER OF EXPERIMENTING. Mr. -Lloyd George declared the propo- : with all lts d ef ectS) had-raised the countiy to pre-eminence'in wealth and'powlnria« f*£ subst.i£utb something, which Jiad not been toed anywhere. In the precarious and complicated machinery of commerce Britain Was' the worst country m -the world to-make such an experiment. They might make it in a Sft '"I* F**" inherent agnculturgl .and mineral, and if it failed they couM restore the , position after a good many years of suffering. But that £X f^T^}^^ -whfch had of fondw-n bll?lness>n generations sipfterf t ' "Ce,i\ at goodwill was dissipated, they would have spent their re preserve the present system should be mot anxious tb remedy the existing evils, so as to prevent the waters of the country from rushing into disastrous experiments. The real danger they had to face was that the party which was out to change the existing order of things received 4,174,000 votes'■at the Ueneral Election. If'the period of depression y as going to be'prolonged, Mr. Lloyd George said he was apprehensive regarding the prospects. Even if they settled the reparations question ' they secured peace only. Then real trade rivalry, would commence. France had enormously increased her capacity for production in the very thing we were placing on foreign' markets. The same thing was true of Germany. He ap- . pealed to the Prime Minister to institute a- Parliamentary inquiry into the causes of the present discontent, and concluded: "I warn the House that the situation is grave. The post-wat conditions are alarming." •■•-■-. M. r- J- T. W, Newbold-(Communist, Motherwell) declared that it would be impossible to expropriate the capitalist class by peaceful means. If the Labour Party attempted ho enforce a capital lovy -and the capitalist'resisted, nothing would happen Except a series of resolutions, as the Labour Party declared it would not use force.

STATE CONTROL OF INDUSTRY. •?f r .\ -k- 0. M. S.:' Amery, replying, said the Uoyernrneht recognised the evils as they existed to-day, but recent improvements were a justification for the belief that with goodwill greater improvements would ensue. Ho repudiated the idea that production by administration of the State was the best calculated to give the highest results. From the point of view of efficiency the present system, whatever its defects, had a great advantage in that it provided for the continual testing:of efficiency by results. Under Socialism Ihe whole of industry would be controlled by Parliament;, and the only test (at long intervals) would be a General Election. In addition to the Postmaster-General there would have-to be a Butcher-General, a a Grocer-General, a (MoUuer-General

.Mr. Jones /(Labour): ""What about a Minister for Fried Fish?" Mr Airiery: '-Yes, and a Ministry for Poultry and .Rabbits, and perhaps a Sec retaz-y for Underwear." ,Mr. Amery said if an inquiry into the causes of-the- present unrest, as suggested by Mr. Lloyd George, showed any hope of yielding practical results, theri was no.reason why it.should not be carefully considered. He asked the House emphatically to *..pudiate the illusory dream of Mr. Snowden's resolution t Mr Ramsay Mac Donald (Leader of ™,, Lf our P^ty) denied that there would be any violent overthrow of the exjahng system. .Modern Socialism did not mean a large State bureaucracy It was unpojsible to avoid trusts and monopoly under Capitalism. He objected to ml, T ™i ,° f m!llei'iali™ inherent v der the..capitalist -system. There were, only two parties, Capitalist and Labour J-ne resolution was defeated by 36« votes to 121. . ■ .

(The cable news in this issue accredited to "The Times" has appcarid in that jDunml Imt only -*her 5 expressly stated is such news the editorial .opinion oJ "l'iie Times."] .