LABOUR'S VIEWS

Evening Post, Volume CII, Issue 61, 9 September 1921, Page 7

LABOUR'S VIEWS

DUE TO IMMIGRATION

WHAT GOVERNMENT HAS DONE.

A deputation from the Alliance of Labour conference on unemployment waited to-day on members of Cabinet. The Ministers present. were Sir Francis Bell, Acting-Prime Minister,. Hon. W. Nosworthy, Minister of Immigration, the Hon. Sir R. Heaton Rhodes, Minister of Defence, and the Hon. W. Dovvnie Stewart, Minister of Internal Affairs. Mr. M. J. Mack, president of the Alliance of Labour, and chairman of the recent conference, introduced the deputation, which, he said, represented more workers than probably any previous deputation. There undoubtedly was a great deal of unemployment and, as near as could be ascertained, it was just ,in i about the same #atio as immigration— | despite the losses of the war' there were more men in the country than there were jobs. The public was being told that lower wages and longer hours would mean less unemployment, but was this so? In 1886, a time of which the president of the Employers' Federation had spoken, with the wage at 5s od a day and long hours there was great unemployment, and it must be obvious that if to-day longer hours were allowed there would be more unemployment. The whole object underlying the recent statement of the president of the Employers' Federation was to get men into the country to work for nothing but their keep. Sir Francis Bell: "We have nothing to do with what Mr. Weston thinks or say's." ■ Mr. Mack: "I am not blaming the Government for this, but he, as spokesman for the Employers' Federation, the men to whom the workers look for em-1 ployment, is- advocating that the men .shall work for nothing but their keep." Mr. "Mack maintained that at present there was over-production, and then stressed the fact* that an unemployed man was a dangerous man, and- that England to-day was bordering on a revolution, simply on account of unemployment. He said, without hesitation, that the Government, through its immigration policy, was assisting in the unemployment, and, in support of Ms statement, said a man with a wife and six children had been displaced from his position in the 'Railway Department by a new-comer. ... THE MONEY QUESTION. Be maintained that the money shortage argument was not a sound one; if another, war broke out, ample money wotild be secured to carry it on, ' and surely it could be raised just as easily for saving valuable bodies and souls. Sir Francis Bell :"I wish, Mr. Mack, you would confine yourself to arguments ■and reasons, and riofc to attack, because we are here to discuss things. You are her 6 to help' the Government—not to attack us." ■ ' ' ..Mr. Mack: "All right. If the Government needs the help of the Labour organisations to show it a way out of the difficulty, it must be an' admission on the part of the Government that it is incapable of dealing with the situation." But Labour could suggest a dozen different ways. Unemployment | bureaux should be opened in every centre of New Zealand for the registration of the unemployed, and, upon registration, each man should be given either useful employment— not gorse-cutting on the hills—or an unemployment wage. As far as raising the money was concerned, there were many avenues open. For instance, why should not a betterment tax be imposed on those who benefited by the construction of new railways, or why should the Government not open a State Banf and secure some .of the great profits now going elsewhere? The one thing which the conference insisted on was that every man willing to work should be given employment on wages which would allow him reasonable comfort, with a margin for sickness and disability, and that any man who could not get work should be kept by the Government. Sir Francis Bell: "You mean that the Government must find work out of the Government funds for any man who is unemployed?" Mr. Mack: "Yes, sir." NUMBER OUT OF WORK. Mr. W. T. Young, secretary of the Federated Seamen's Union, said that during the wax promises were made that no man who 'went to the war should suffer. Many men who went, to the war and were not maimed were-.now in great .distress. A very large number of unemployed had not registered at the Government offices, and he was of opinion that the unemployed numbered not 5000,'----but was equal to the number of immigrants who had arrived in 'the past eighteen months, with 25 per cent, added. Theft-was a great deal of distress among seamen. Sir Francis Bell • •' 'But wo can't help seamen, can we? They won't settle down to a longshore job?" Mr. Young: "Quite a number hare done so already." He said that the laying up of vessels indicated that there was a slacknes6 on shore. There were I now, or would shortly be, 37 vessels out of commission, employing 725 Members of the Seamen's Union, apart from other persons employed on the vessels'. On the Wellington waterfront there was now employment for only 600 men, instead of 2000, and on the whole oft the wharves of the country there were 3000 to 3500 men out of work. Sir Francis Bel] said he could not see that this was relevant, unless Mr. Young showed how the Government could put the vessels.in commission. Mr. Young said he wished first to establish the fact of- unemployment. | There were also, he considered, many ■ miners out of work, and all over the country were depots of imported coal. The secretary of the Freezing Workers' Federation stated that, of 42 freezing works, only one was employing any number of men. . Sir Francis Bell: "You don't think that exceptional at this time of th* year?" Mr. Young :"I don't know." Mr. Young said further that the Government had dismissed many men from the Public Service and thrown them on the labour market. In many warehouses employees were working week about, and in retail establishments many had been dismissed. It was the business of the [> Government to find a way out, and not to expect a policy from somewhere else. Sir Francis Bell : "Mr. Young, you should suggest a way^jut." > | Mr. Young : "We don't mind 'helping you at all, if it's possible." Mr.- Young said that Sir Francis Bell had said about four months ago that no immigrant was coming to New Zenlandwithout a guarantee of employment. He .said one man whp ha<i come out under a guarantee bad told- him that his nominator - had said that he could" not guarantee work as he had uo work to

offer. The departmental officer had said that was only a matter of form and told him to sign the paper. Sir Francis Bell: "What ig that man's name?" •. '. Mr. Young: "I.will give you the name later." The Hon. W. Nosworthy .• "No, we want it now." Sir Francis Bell: "I shall not allow this j room to be used to make a series of statements which I have every reason to believe are incorrect." • Mr. Young: "On second consideration . I shall not disclose the name of the man." Sir Francis Bell: "Then,l must ask I you not to make statements which cannot be verified and contradicting statements of the Acting-Prime Minister." Mr. Young: "They may be unpalatable." -. ■ ■ Sir Francis Bell: "You must not go on in that way. You may say that outside." After some argument, in which Sir Francis Bell insisted that the statement must not be further discussed. Mr. Young said he would be content with saying that to-day they had-an assertion that a guarantee was not given, and four'iand a-half months ago they had the opposite. The deputation did wish to assist the Government so far as the .government would allow, if the Government would undertake to give effect to the suggestions made by the deputation. Sir Francis a Bell: "Would you give effect immediately to - suggestions I made?" v Mr. Young said that if the Government had the surplus and the loan money which it had raised, a first call upon it should be development work, to provide employment. ■ ■ ■ Sir Francis Bell : "So it is." As a means of raising money, Mr. Young suggested that a special tax on land would provide- all that was required. Sir Francis Bell :; "That would 'require the sanction of Parliajnent. Mr. Young said that if 'the Government wished it could put this through in twenty-four hours when Parliament met. A levy on sccumulated capital and a betterment tax on lands improved by public works were other proposals. Mr. Young concluded by saying that reduction, of wages, reduced spending power, and closed up the avenues for the disposal of products. , "REDUCE THE HOURS." ' Mr, H. T. Armstrong, of Christchurch, j maintained that there was plenty of useful and necessary, work to be done in New Zealand. .TJnfoi'tunately, there were people who were using the present situation to lower (the wages and the standard of living <d the workers. The Government's policy of dismissal of pub-, lie works men had the effect of aggravating the position, and f ,the position had arisen under which the Department was employing former employees at the unemployment wage. • Sir Francis Bell: ''Ho, that is quite incorrect." ' . ■ •■ Mr. Armstrong maiateined that that was what, happened in the Christcburch district, Jto which Sir Francis Bell replied that the Department was employing on full wages to-day as many men as before the unemployment started. Mr. Armstrong suggested the shortening of the hours of men already in1 employment, as a means of securing more men work,^ and added that an energetic housingscheme would provide both work for ■many-and propel- accommodatior for people already here, and the immigrants when they arrived. Sir Francis Bell: "Is not housing a local matter?" . t Mr. Armstrong replied'that personally he thought • this was a matter for the State, but, dealing with it as a. local matter, he said Christchurch could obtain the material and the labour, but it had not the money. He believed the necessary money was in Christchurch, in Wellington, or any of the other large cities, but under present conditions /t could not be secured unless the Government exercised the power in its hands in regard to the rate of interest. ■> The Government could do much, too, by cheapening timber. Mr. Mack, referring to an earlieu interjection of Sir Francis in regard to helping seamen, said the Government could aid seamen a great deal by easing the restrictions upon' Hie credits of the people who desired to make importations into the country. Mr. Cook, secretary of the women's unions in Christchurch, spoke of the unemployment of women. SIR FRANCIS BELL'S REPLY "Frankly," said Sir Francis Bell in reply, "I am very disappointed. I was asked to meet representative men, and you are representative men, on matters of' unemployment, I thought we might have had a real conference and an interchange of views: The greater part of. the addresses has been attacks and advocacy of measures and political principles entirely beyond the present and immediate' exigencies and emergency. I do not in the least challenge the right of gentlemen to meet us and take the attitude that has, I think, been adopted of making the addresses to the public rather than the Government. That is where I have been disappointed, but of course I accept it, and desire to meet you on that basis and-try to sho* that the Government is not without a policy and has some sense of the position and is endeavouring to meet it in the way it thinks fit," They had a perfect right to say that the Government was wrong and to put the Government out, but while the Government was in office it would consider and welcome suggestions, But its business was to decide questions •and to govern. v KEEPING MEN EMPLOYED. He had tried to explain /before with regard to tho public works and the Public Service that during thY period of depression that began early in the year the Government at great jfianancial strain had employed all the men possible on public works, and had retained in the Public Service all Civil servants, including the temporary hands. "That is the way the Government endeavoured to meet the emergency, and I really do not think it is fair not to recognise that, and to allege that in some way or other the Government reduced the number of its employees! In the case that had been referred to by Mr. Mack of gorse-grub-bing, it was put before the Government here and in other centres that men were "being thrown out of private employment who were incapable of heavy physical work, and light work had to be provided for them." Mr. Mack: "Do you consider gorsegrubbing light work"? They would have been better employed laying out the new railway yard." i Sir Francis Bell said that was for the local authorities to decide. Complaints had been made that sufficient had not been done in providing employment for married men near the cities. Mr. P. Fraser said that the Government grant to the City Council was made on condition that the money was spent"" on afforestation. Sir Francis Bell saiid that the request was made by members of Parliament that money was required -to provide work for those incapable of heavy labour, and to ensure that the money should be used for this purpose tin condition w;as attached. LOCAL RESPONSIBILITY. "As long es I am a member of the Government," continued* the Minister, "I will' not ldmit tire principle that tho Government Ishould find eroiploy.ment for men unemployed in every locality, any more than I will admit

. ttiftt the Government: should find houses for ©very on© all over the DominionI do not quarrel with people who hold these views, hut I do not -want to have any misundenitandmg of the views °t myself and my colleagues." He would not admit that wherever there were slums, wherever, for example, Mr. Armstrong and1 his colleague- had madi a mess of things,: that the Government should be expected to clear things tip, any move than he would admit that the Government should go poking ite nose in. and offer money to provide employment. It was the function of the local, authority to see that the people in,the locality were well-governed. ■ .It was only when a general question arose; such as was caused by the collapse of produce" prices, that the Government had. a duty to make some general provision, ao'that it would 'be possible for localities to do their duty iv this respect. That had been done. , He did not think they knew how much had been done. .Not- ~- withstanding the difficulty of providing1 money for public works, the State Advances Department had been employing1 ibs fund? largely in advances \to .the smaller local authorities. The .reason why there had not been c tremendous, amount of unemployment was that the boroughr and counties had been employing labour with money borrowed in this way. RELIEF WORKS. Puplic works had been continued and new works initiated. Also, the Government had provided extra works, of which complaint had been made that they were carried on at less than a proper wage or at less than the Public Works Department _ was alleged to have agreed to pay. He'did not know what the Public. Works Department.had agreed to, "but he said that these works had no moie to do with the Public Works Department than with the Department of ■ Marine. For example, tree-planting was Carried on under his control as Commis- . sioner of Forests. With the possible ex- , ception of one or two works, such as the ; Akatarawa road, they were not even authorised -by Parliament. They were no more public works' under the Public Work's Department.than'they were eccle-.' siastical works under, the Archbishop, of Canterbury. They were initiated for the alleviation and mitigation of"unemployment. ' . , ; „.,- ' QUESTION OF NUMBERS. , : , . Sir Francis said that he would not discuss the State Bank, because it was' a wide question. He did not think it would do any good to. express his-own. views, and they.would,probably not' par any attention to them if he did. , The unemployment was not so serious as had been stated. Mr. Young had been obliged to say, for the purpose of his'argument, that many didsnot.register; at. the Government Bureau, but' even if • they did not the registrations were the only measure that the Government could take. Those applications had-never been largely in excess of normal. ■■••■■ : ••■ '; Mr. Mack": "There'isno bureau in the . . •King Country." : ..:, ■' „....... Sir FrancL Bell said he quite believed that some men did not'register, but\the Government had to accept,the bureau as the test of the position. There must be . others outside, but there. always were. On 3rd September the total -unemployed'1, were 1153, and for .the previous week1: 1140.; In one week 125 were placed in employment. It*was not the same men ■ who were out of work all the time, but the number remained about the same.'' Then there wa6.,alw»Vs, a.percentage who did not want work, as they knew fromtheir experience in offering jobs,to men, .paying their railway fares and then hea.r-■ ing no more.of them.. . , . DISPLACING MEN. T :' Mr. Mack: "What about displacing married men by single men'because they are eligible for permanent'employment?" Sir Francis Bell said he really, could nob say. It was certainly not x the Gov-; , eminent policy. It might happen in one or two cases, and there might ,t>f good reason for it. "But if you ask me to believe that the officers of the Public Service and the Railway Department are ■engaged in dismissing married men so as to engage single men,' you could go on isaying it for a hundred years and I would not believe it. You don't want m» to believe that the officers are a pack of heartless rogues. Itlis not common-sens* to .make such statements." i He could never quite make out what • Mr. Young meant to say, but what ho thought he was aiming at was that the Government had broken itr pledge to tha soldiers. He did not think that was so, but if it were so, he was sorry, and' he woulc? have it put right. Mr. ■- ArmstrongV views were fairly and! forcibly put, tut' die 1 they not amount, after all. to expressions of political 'principles on, such ■ gsneral questions -as the State B«nk? ..-..-, . ■ : IMMIGRATION POSITION^ Dealing with the question of immigration, Sir Erancis Bell asked if n< member of the disputation had nominated any,,. immigrant. •.. , No one responded. Sir Francis Bell saidi be was eurpnised< at this. He explained that it had been . . the practice for people in the country/to , nomanat* friends one' relatives, to come to this country. Before and during the war hundreds of such nominations were made, ant" thr passage money paid. The nominators were required to urid'ertake to find employment and accommodation for the immigrants they nominated. These nominations accumulated during, the war, as the immigrants could not bo brought out, and after the war the Gcvernment was abused for accepting the passage money from the nominators, and not.providimg the shipping to bring the immigrants out. The greater number of the people who were coming out now had their passage. money paid a. long time ago, and the Government had' no right to stop them from coming. : Mi1., Fraser produced a> copy of a circular from the High Commissioner's office,, stating that employment was guaranteed under the • overseas settlement schame. ' Sir Francis Bell said that he had not seen this circular previously. It was dated 1920. He would have it inquired into. He added that they were not giving assisted passages other than to those who had been nominated by friends <\vh"o undertook to find employment and accommodation for them. The Imperial Government was : paying the passage money of ex-service men and their families, and it had been a bittev thing for the New Zealand Government to do, but it had done it, to ask the Im»;rial Government to limit these passages to men for whom work and accommodation could be guaranteed! It had been a bitter thing for the Government to close the doox's of this country to any extent to their kith and kin in the Mother Country, Englishmen who had fought for England. "But supposing the Imperial Government had not agreed to the request of the New Zealand Government, I tell you, gentlemen, that so, long as I am' a member of the Government, I shall never say that the shores of the .country' are closed to Englishmen, who have as much right to come here as we." Members of the deputation said that . this was not suggested. . Sir Francis Bell said that he was very ~~ glad to hear it. • •■ Mr. Mack • said that the deputation did not mini" if half England canie here so long as accommodation and employ- • ment could be found for them. : '' Sir Francis Bell said that the Imperial Government paid the passages of these men and their families, and the New Zealand Government had nothing.to, do• with them, except that it had made the request that had limited the number ot

tho«e coming out... If it was said that it was an unfortunate time even for nominated immigrants to come to the country he agreed with them, but the Government had no power to stop those who had paid their passages from comiing out. -. _. ■-'• ........ s Mr..Mack: "You" have the power to tell theni the truth of the position here " ■ Sir Francis Bell said this remark was , not fair from Mr. Mack. He would not t°H them, that jthere was no employment i and no accommodation when that _was not , the fact,, as it was guaranteed in every caae. He would say that, there was the i chance of their displacing someone else, but that would not prevent them coining out ■ ' Sh Francis Bell-concluded by saying „' that he had tried to put the position be--1 fore them fairly, and it would be unfair if tho members of the deputation went ' <iway and said that . they, had learnt nothjng. In three weeks' time they would be able to get a more authoritative declaration than he could give. Mr J. Roberts: "We will bring along the unemployed then." ,' i Sir Francis Bell said it would be better "if they would try to help the Government ■- - - Mr Roberts said his remark was not ■ intended as a threat. Their statement of 'the position had not been accepted, and they would bring along the proof. He ' said they came for something definite, x and nothing had been promised. Sir Francis Bell Said nothing had been J promised, because the Government was now doing everything it possibly could. He was disappointed that not one speaker had recognised' that. STOPPING IMMIGRATION. - Mr,. Monteith asked if, the money for assisted passages, could not be better used to give assistance in. this country. Sir Francis Bell said that might be '/DO bo far as those not already nominated and >in a position to claim a. passage " we concerned, but for others it would ' t be a. breach of contract. Mr Monteith said.'that he made this as a helpful .suggestion, and he. asked . if the Government woi}ld stop assisted passages from now on. f^- ', Sir Francis said he could not answer ', this at once. ...... Mr. Mack thanked ith? Ministers for ' receiving the deputation. They had learned a great deal. When Mr. Maissey arrived he would no doubt have a more ' T vivid idea of what unemployment meant "than they had in this country.