ADDRESS-IN-REPLY.

Evening Post, Volume LXXVII, Issue 133, 12 June 1909, Page 9

ADDRESS-IN-REPLY.

MANY SUBJECTS DISCUSSED. DREADNOUGHTS AND DEFENCE. AN ANIMATED DEBATE. THE TWO LEADERS SPEAK. The debato on the Address-in-Reply "was continued in the House of Representatives after The Post went to press yesterday. OPPOSITION LEADER. Mr. Massey notified that he intended to move an amendment to strike out the line reading "that an early prorogation of Parliament should take place." Hehad not intended, he said, to do so until a few minutes ago, but it was necessary to do so in oider to set forth hia position. Dealing with land monopoly, he said the monopoly consisted of^Crown and native lands, and it was because of that monopoly that people were leaving our shores. He again protested against the postponement of x the business of the session for three or four months, and he urged that no sufficient reason for such a course had been put forward. He objected to the business of Parliament being played with, and said that the responsibility rested with those who had voted for such a course of action. Great emphasis had been laid on the fact that the Prime Minister should be in his place to explain and direct the policy of the Government. What was that policy? It was the policy of retaining office. As to the Public Service, he said that if ever the country reached the verge of bankruptcy it would be because of the wild and wicked extravagance of tho party which had been in power for many years past. Millions of money had been wasted on defence ; the settlers on the land were not in such a position as they were some years ago, and the most lamentable failure of all had been in connection with native lands. The State Coal Department was only saved from showing a loss because of the fact that it charged the Railway Department about twice as much as M charged to private consumers. The Minister of Mines : Absolutely incorrect. Mr. Massey expressed the nope that an opportunity would be given members to discuss the question. In regard to railway administration, he said there was great and widespread dissatisfaction. The administration of the Government, he declared, had lowered the whole tone of public life in New Zealand. Turning again to the question of native lands, he stated that there was great dissatisfaction, and he expressed the hope that the Government would be able to place new legislation of an improved character on the statute-book. He also wanted to know whnt had been the cost of the Second Ballot Act, and urged that Parliament should be given an opportunity of saying whether that Act should continue on the statutebook or not. After referring to needed amendments in the Gaming Act, he once again protested against tho adjournment of Parliament, and moved the amendment he had indicated earlier. It was not, he said, moved as a want-cf-confidence motion. Mr. 'Hardy seconded the amendment. A MINISTERIAL 'REPLY. The 'Hon. T. Mackenzie, in replying, Baid he would endeavour to do good, clean, straight business work for tho country.. The Government was carrying out a disagreeable task in respect of the Civil service ; it was endeavouring to place the finances on a sound basis. Tr had been contended over and over again that the people would lose nothing if (Parliament closed its doors for a year or two Mr. iMassey : Not now. Mr. 'Mackenzie : We have had it from ■ ihe 'Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Massey : Not for some time past. {Laughter.) The position has altered. (Laughter.) Continuing, Mr. 'Mackenzie proceeded to deal with the unemployed difficulty. The people required to be trained in agricultural purfuits and closer settlement fostered. That was the policy the Government would endeavour to carry out. iNO DEPRESSION. There was no such thing, he said, as depression in New Zealand. Our exporta had increased in value as compared with the corresponding period of last year, and our imports had shown a decrease. iWhen previously the value of our imports had exceeded that of our exports, we had been told that we were on the •wrong side in our accounts. Nov, when exports exceeded imports, we were told that we were still in a bad financial condition. There had been some talk of retrenching in regard to the State experiraentaJ farms. Model farms, if properly conducted — .Mr. Hardy: That's the point! Mr. : If that's the point, I am perfectly sure vre shall succeed. I have never been associated with any industrial concern in my life without making it a success. Mr. 'Mackenzie went on to refer to the cry for expenditure on new railways raised by the same people who complained of extravagance. In conclusion, the Minister said : "I have been associated with, most of the retrenchment gone through, and it is being carried out hon ouraWy. Every effort has been made by the Premier to let the trial fall aa iightly as possible on those required to leave the service. ■MR. JAS. ALLEN. ■Mr. Allen reminded the hon. (Minister •who hai just sat down of the position thai existed in 1887, when, owing to the shortcomings of a Liberal Government, a very similar position existed to the present, and when that gentleman had assisted him (Mr. Allen) to do the dirty work of cleaning- tHings up. Hie colony in 1887 had drifted into 'such a wretched etato of financial trouble that someone had had to come in and clean up. He was glad that in tho present instance that work had fallen on the shoulders of those who had committed the political crime of leading the country into its present condition by the creation of billets and of departments which they knew were not required. Now the time had come when those for whom these billets Lad bsoi created had to be caet out upon tho world to earn their living. The men •who had brought about this state of things had to answer to the Dominion and to those people who were suffering as a result of what had been taking place in the last ten or eleven years. He was glad to know that this was none of his work. The Ministry had to do it, and if they did it honestly and on straight business lines, they would have his support. The blame for this cruelty was on the shoulders of those who had created tbe situation — not on the should«e of those who, time afier time had drawn attention to what was going on, but who had not been listened to. Parliament could not sit still in the matter of legislation. It was significant that the •Hon. .Mr. Mackenzie had not said one word about the amendment. The unemployed problem could not be lightly passed over, although the hon. gentleman •who had just spoTten seemed to think that any able-bodied man could get work. iFrom all he (the speaker) could hear the facts were very different. OUE OWN DEFENCES. Coming to naval developments, he •asked why fliere should be so much talk about wssjfoie .German asg^esskm^ Ho

believed, with many Germar writers, that the aim of Germany was to make herself a power in world politics. It was not Germany only that New Zealand had to think about. In the Pacific there were Japanese and Chinese — nations which were rapidly growing in strength. We "had imposed restrictions on these peoples— he did not say the restrictions were wrongly imposed— and we had to look to ourselves to enforce those restrictions, if necessary. He had a word to say about Sir Joseph Ward's condemnation the other evening of the foolhardiness of establishing a submarine service in Now Zealand as a means of defence. Mr. Allen declared that Sir Joseph, when at the Imperial Conference, promised to consult his colleagues on this question. Had he done so ? The speaker quoted from a writer in the North American Review, in which it was stated that Great Britain had handed over the control of the Pacific to America and Japan. Which was the dominant power in the Pacific? Japan, of course ; Japan, our ally. How galling had our restrictions on the Japanese been 1 How long would Japan be Great Britain's ally? To make preparation against difficulties that might arise, an enormous amount of time was required. He was at one with those people in Australia who saw that we had a duty to do in these seas. We wero the making of a young nation. Were we going to rely on Japan for our place in the Pacific ? He asked if Australia was not going on right lines. The Premier had laughed at the Australians. Sir Joseph Ward : When did I do so ? Mr. Allen declared that Sir Joseph had scoffed at the idea of torpedoes for local defence. New Zealand had to realise its position and its destiny. The protection of the North Sea was not going to be the protection of New Zealand. He appealed that New Zealand's defences should be put in order, and referred approvingly to the fact that an ex-Ministd of the Crown (Mr- R. M'Nab) was now doing his utmost — when hs had been relieved of the shackles of office — to awaken the people to their plain duty. A BOLD POLICY. In reference to the policy of the late Prime Minister of the Commonwealth for the establishment of a local navy to protect coastal trade, he contended that this was a bold policy and a right one, notwithstanding what our Prime Minister said. If it was recommended by the conference that Australia and New Zealand should build cruisers to replace the Australian squadron, it would be a great step towards securing efficient naval deience. A member : What about the money ? Mr. Allen : I am not dealing with that just now. Mr. Witty : You dare not. Mr. Allen said that when the House came to deal with the question of money (•over the Dreadnought proposals), he would give them the cost of his proposals. He had these all worked out — and those relating to the military defence of New Zealand as well as naval matters. If three armoured cruisers were built^-one for New Zealand anB two for Australia — they would be more effectual ilian the whole of the present Commonwealth squadron. What * would be the cost to New Zealand of one armoured cruiser '! An hon. member : About £1.000,000. Mr. Allen continued that New Zealand by her present attitude was acting as a drag on the wheels of the Commonwealth's aspirations. If our "Premier came back from the conference and admitted that in regard to New Zealand's contribution to naval defence he had been wrong, but had been put on right lines, then he would get the stiongest support from the speaker. (Applause.) INTERNATIONAL POLITICS. Mr. Wilford followed. He rose, he said, for the purpose of proving that Germany's sole purpose in expending money on her navy was to beat Great Britain in the North Sea. The sole object of the German ship-building programme was the annihilation of the British fleet, and the fight that would decide the question would take place in European waters. The member for Hutt went on to quote from European newspapers to prove his contention. All the conflicting parties, in Germany were agreed in this respect, that Germany wanted colonies, and the object in the building of a navy was to settle the British Navy. The acquisition of colonies would follow. (Hear, hear.) It was with that object that Germany in March last acquired the territory overlooking the Australian and New Zealand colonies. Germany, by creating a National ideal, did away with internal dissensions, and welded those conflicting elements into ono homogeneous whole. Mr. Wilford gave an interesting resume of the complicated political position of Europe during recent times, with the object of proving his contention that Germany's aims were directed against Great Britain. EVENING SITTING. Continuing his speech at the evening sitting, "Mr. Wilford went further into details of international politics. He traced Germany's doings from the Franco-Prussian war to the present day, and drew therefrom the conclusion that Germany's policy had always 'been to pounce on unsuspecting victims. The Kaiser used to be looked on as- a public nuisance, but now he was regarded as a public danger. UNEMPLOYED AND SOUP KITCHENS. Mr. E. Newman (Manawatu) heartly supported the Government's offer of a Dreadnought to the Imperial authorities — an offer which had a much greater moral effect than any increase of subsidy to the navy would have had. Sir Joseph Ward would go Home with his best wishes. Dealing with the unemployed question Mr. Newman said that charitable people in some of the cities had started soup kitchens. Hon. E. M'JCenzie : That's a. Tory yarn. Mr. Massey : It is absolutely true. Mr. Newman continued that there were already soup kitchens in Wellington attended daily by the poor. W T OULD NOT OPPOSE PROROGATION. Mr. Poole reminded members that the Prime Minister had told the House that if Parliament did not adjourn he would not go Home. That being so, he (Mr. Poolo) was not prepared to accept the responsibility of voting against prorogation, and he urged the House to take the same view. _ He knew that there was some dissatisfaction with the Government, and especially with the Cabinet as constructed. He was not altogether satisfied himself, and it was rather a sore subject in the north. The departure of the Prime Minister to England wonld not only give us satisfactory representation at the conference, but would enable us to secure more money to carry out work that would give employment on legitimate and reproductive lines to those in need of it. In conclusion, Mr. Poole said we needed some system of defence — a system of compulsory training with voluntary service. PREMIER IN REPLY. The Prime Minister, who was received •with applause, said he would very dearly have liked to confine his reply to the real issue, but an amendment had been moved. He knew that sometimes Mr. Massey indulged in criticism which he did not seriously mean. When Mr. Massey had said thai there had been an 4uiyrilliDjjness ox. iaicaaacitj^ on the jcart .

5f the Government to give reasons for the prorogation Mr. Massey : No, I did not say that. The Prime Minister continued that it could not" be intended to build upon an unemployed cry any movement in opposition to the representation of the country at the conference. Opposition members : No ; to the adjournment. The Prime Minister said that he knew nothing more unfair than for a section of members to oppose prorogation under the circumstances, and yet profess themselves in favour of his representing New Zealand at the conference. He read a letter from an Opposition supporter, which he had received only that day, in which the writer said that, though not in agreement with the policy of the Government, he was altogether in agreement with it as to the giving of the Dreadnought and attending the conference. The writer regretted that there should have been any opposition to those proposals, inasmuch as patriotism should be above party. Mr. Massey : He says nothing of postponing the business of the country. A PLAIN STATEMENT. Sir Joseph Ward : You have only to disagree with the proposal and I don't go. The Government had made an offer, which the House would be asked to affirm, and the affirmation of Parliament was necessary. The offer of a Dreadnought by New Zealand had to be considered by the conference, and yet the Opposition opposed a prorogation of the business of Parliament for less than three months, so as to allow of the presence at that conference of the head of the Government which had made that offer, and who was the person best qualified to consider the details at the conference. He urged that the work of Parliament could be well done before Christmas without injury to the people of New Zealand. The Government was not responsible for the conference being held, and in a matter of this sort he declared that what the Government would do would be a complete answer to the criticisms of those who drew a red herring across the track by talking about the unemployed and population leaving the Dominion. A BIG EXCESS. The excer-s of immigration over emigration during the pa?t ten years had been ten thousand, and it was absurd, in face of those figures, to try to make capital out of the fact that for the past month the excess of departures over arrivals was 1600. He believed that amongst those who were counted in that numbei were several members of Parliament, who had since returned . All the year round there were comings and goings. The Australian press had commented unfairly on the position of New Zealand. •EXCESSIVE VALUATION'S? As to valuations, he said the real trouble was the excessive valuations put on by the owners themselves. The Government was being blamed for overvaluation, but he declared that .uext session they must legislate to prevent the possibility of an owner putting such an excessive valuation on his estate as to prevent extortion on the country in respect to which the Government., tought to acquire. By such a course they would achieve ihe end of putting moie people on the land. THE UNEMPLOYED. The Government had been looking after the unemployed all along, but it was not going to debase the people by the establishment of soup kitchens. He paid a high tribute to a generous-minded lady who had for years past given soup to those who were in need of sustenance. %Some 8000 or 9000 men were- now engaged on public works, and the Government was prepared to put more on to works which were of a reproductive character. If Parliament gave the Government the necessary authority, they ncod hava no qualms about the future. I THE GOVERNMENT POLICY. He sincerely hoped that the Government would be able to put its policy through with the assistance of its own friends, but the Government did not wajifc to be indebted in that respect to those who were not in sympathy with it. A MISSING MINISTER. ■Mr. (Massey had asked why the late Minister for 'Mines was no longer included in the Ministry? He (Sir Joseph) would not dream of trying to find out what went on at a caucus of his opponents. So far as the Cabinet was concerned, it was very difficult to got ten men to hold the same opinions on all matters. The policy of the Cabinet was voiced by the head of the Government. It would not do for every member of the CaJbinet to announce the Government's policy. Mr. 'Buchanan : They do it ! (Laughter.) The Prime Minister said he was sorry to have to indulge in criticism of some 01 the remarks of the member for Bruce. Mr. Allen had said that he had helped to do some of the cleaning up after the Liberal Government in 1887. That was not so. 'Mi - . Allen had run away, and he (Sir Joseph) and others of his party went over and stood by Sir Harry Atkinson until the necessary work was done, and then went back. He challenged Mr. Allen to show anything in proof of his statemtnt that the Government had allowed the affairs of the country to go wrong financially. The Prime (Minister quoted reports of .Mr. Allen's election campaign speeohes, in which that gentleman strongly assailed the Government's financial doings. j Concerning Mr. Ngata's position in the Ministry, he said Mi*. Ngata was appointed a- member of the Executive by his Excellency the Governor, and his Excellency had power to delegate certain duties to members of the Executive, and that delegation had been made. Mr. Ngata-'s position was quite constitutional. IMPERIAL DEFENCE. So far as the Imperial Defence Conference was concerned, he denied that He iiad scouted Lord Tweedmouth's &U""gestion for the creation of small local navies. What he did object to was the establishment of a system here in New Zealand, such as was suggested in Australia. Australia had to do what best suited her interests. As a matter of fact, he had stated that New Zealand, in order that Australia might carry out her desires, would offer no objection to Australia withdrawing from the naval agreement. In dealing with the whole question under discussion, he had hoped that the debatowould have been raised above party. AN OPEN MIND AND SOME FIXED CONVICTIONS. He declared that when he visited London he would approach certain questions before the conference with an open mind. On others he had fixed convictions. If they wanted to maintain the safety of New Zealand as a part of the Empire, it was their boundeu duty not to build a single cruiser, but to see that they supported the British Navy. The only way they could help the British Navy was by sinking parly differences. He legretted that the proposals put before members (for the adjournment of Parliament) did not receive the unanimous support ol members. The work to be transacted could easily be disposed oT before Christmas. PERSONAL EXPLANATIONS. A lengthy crop of personal explanations followed, Mr. Massey, Mr. Allen, and Mr. Newman being prominent. Sir Joseph was particularly concerned with a remark made by Mr. Allen, that the Midland railway tunnel contract had

been entered into without provision being made to meet the liabilities. £ir Joseph said the liability was spread over five years. It would, he said, be as reasonable to contend that when the North Island Main Trunk contract was entered into provision should have been made at the outset for a liability of seven, millions sterling. He repeated that the back-blocks, in the matter of public works expenditure, would not suffer in the slightest extent owing to the adjournment of Parliament. The Financial Statement, which was of fai more importance to members than the Public Works Statement, would be delivered before the end of October. NEW GOVERNMENT HOUSE. The Prime Minister, in response to questions, said the cost of the new Gcvernment House would be lea's than i £22,000. The building scheme of the Government would extend over two or three years. Mr. Massey drew attention to the time (10.40 p.m.), and an argument ensued as to what the Prime Minister had said as to the hour of rising. Sir Joseph Ward would not give way, and the de bate proceeded. A WELLINGTON MEMBER. Mr. Fisher urged that public opinion was strongly in favour of the business of the session going on, notwithstanding the absence of the Prime Minister, and in this connection he urged that the Government should pubhah ' the despatches which were sent Home and which elicited the invitation direct to the Prime Minister to attend the Naval Conference. He wanted to know by what precedent the Prime Minister committed the Dominion to an expenditure of two millions, and he believed that when things had cooled down it would be found that the Prime Minister's action was not only unconstitutional, but absolutely unnecessary. The Valuation Department was responsible for the high values of land. He presumed that the Government proposed to borrow the £2,000,000 to pay for the Dreadnought from the Imperial Government, for where else was it possible to get the money at the 3 per rent, mentioned in the despatch? Sir Joseph Ward said that that was not, and had not, been his intention. Mr. Fisher : Where would you get it? Sir Joseph Ward : That is my business. Mr. 1 " Fisher said that J,he £2,000,000 could not be raised here or in Australia. It must be borrowed at Home. Mr. Buick moved the adjournment of the debate. TO GET THE NECESSARY CONFIRMATION. The Premier gave notice of : "That this House approves of the action of the Government in its offer of assistance to the Imperial Navy in the terms conveyed to His Majesty's Home Government in the despatch of 27th March last." The House rose at 11.25 p.m.