THE ESTIMATES.

Evening Post, Volume LXX, Issue 37, 12 August 1905, Page 2

THE ESTIMATES.

GRIEVANCES OF MEMBERS. LOANS AND OTHER MATTERS. At 7.30 last night the House of Representatives went into Committee of Supply for the consideration of .the Estimates. The first class taken was class 1, Legislative Departments, total vote £23,559. Mr. Barber urged that a police constable should be placed on duty at the doors of the buildings. The previous night someone who was not in a pleasant condition sent in -for him and abused him to a considerable extent. He urged that members should not be compelled to put up with that sorb of thing. The Premier promised to consult the Minister for v Justice "with a view to preventing that sort of indignity being placed on members. The old complaint was made that members had no convenience provided for them for the purpose of seeing their constituents, and, generally, members complained that" in certain respects they were not made sufficiently comfortable. Also, it was urged that there was extravagance in regard to minor details in connection with the Parliamentary Buildings, such as soap and blacklend, which were put down in ''contingencies" at £80, and Sir. Hawkins contended that the whole of Wellington could be cleaned and blackleaded for less than half {hat amount. The Premier expressed full confidence in the economical tendencies of the custodian, and as to accommodation, he said it was fast coming to a question oi rebuilding the old portion of the Parliamentary edifice. Also, he promised to order at once a couple of typewriters for the use of members. The Hansard staff was brought under review by Mr Taylor, who asked whether they had the right to evidence in Court as to the notes they took of the proceedings in Parliament. That question, he explained, arose out of a recent case heard in Christchurch. Mr. Taylor went on to remark that a great many needed conveniences could have been provided if the Government had not thrown away £15,000 on the Queen's Memorial in London. ' He also suggested that the Hansard staff should be thrown open to women, who, he urged, were quite capable of doing the work. Complaint was also made that the House was kept in the dark as to- payments under the head of "contingencies" — always a source of a good deal of controversy — and "the Premier gave some details in a manner that, from the Press Gallery point of vi3w, was as clear as mud. Mr. Duthie urged that} the Estimates were never sufficiently reviewed by the House, and he urged that an independent examination .would lead to a very considerable reduction in expenditure, to the great advantage of the Public Service. The form in which the Estimates were put before the House also came under the condemnation of the Opposition. "Too mUcu mystery," was the comment of the Leader of, the Opposition, and he plainly indicated that in financial matters mystery was nof; a' desirable thing. The Premier replied that the Estimates showed quite enough — money was voted' laat year, it was expended, and no further vote on those items was required. Why burden the Estimates with a' lot of details about that sort of thing? The. manifold and peculiar powers given to the Government by tho Public Revenues Act were quoted by tho Opposition as a reason for their suspicion of the new form of the Estimates, and Mr. W. Fraser pointed to the remarkable fact that, under that new .form, it waa shown in one department thut £22,000 was spent last year, and no details whatever were given. The point was made by Mr. Taylor • that Parliament was the final auditing tribunal of the colony, afcd he complained of the difficulty that even members had of getting a fragment of information. Members of the Civil Service seemed to be in a state of terrorism, and were afraid even to answer a simple question as to the time of day! Members, lie urged, had a right to know. ' Why should there be all this mystery? Ministers assumed tho position of absolute ownership, and spoke in tho most resentful if members asked for information. "The House, he urged, should have a detailed account of j the contingencies votes, and members were not given anything like the information they ought to. have, as representatives of the people. The Premier urged in reply that the Estimates were simplified by the lack of detail complained of, and promised to give full details. Turning from this subject Mr. Taylor moved, to reduce the vote by £1, his reason being that he believed that the coal used in .Parliament Buildings did not come from the State poal mines. The Premier practically admitted, the charge, but (having received information from outside) informed the House that the coal now in use came from tho Sed donville mine. After Mr. Buchanan had complained of a slight superfluity of "slack" in tho otherwise excellent fuel used in tho House, Mr. Fisher moved to reduce the item "Mailman during session, £50," by £1. Ho urged that the present mailman was receiving a. pension of £141, and that tho £50 should be given to some man in greater need of it. There were many men in Wellington to whom thia £50 would be a. godsend. This point of view was strongly endorsed by Mr. Taylor, who in the course of his argument enunciated the principle that tho State should spend its money over as many p'eoplo as possible. The Premier opposed the motion, as ho objected to the principle that the receipt of a pension should debar a man from taking other employment. After further debate on tho point tho Premier was -understood to concede the principle, tind to undertake to consider the point next session. Mr. Fisher asked leave to withdraw his motion, but was prevented by Mr. 'Colvin, who lo6k him to task for trying to injure another man— a thing which the member- for Bullcr declared that he himself would never be guilty of The actioh taken by Mr. Fisher was upheld by Mr. Hawkins, who pertinently remarked that if members had to earn the money they voted they would bo more careful in regard to its expenditure. To this tho Premier retorted that if the salaries paid were to come under review members should not start on the email salaries. • There were, he said, men who were -receiving £300 1 and £400 n year, and not a word was said about them. The merits and demerits of tho £50 billot were debated at considerable length, and eventually tile motion to reduce the amount was lost on the voices. The Committee then again discussed Mr. Taylor's amondment to reduce the yote bjr £1 on account of the fuel con-

sumed in the Parliamentary stoves not being ie product of the State coal mines Mr. Moss called attention to an animal — a horse — which haunts the Parliamentary tennis ground. Members realised that the horse is the unfortunate animal which has put upon it the task of darrying the Premier when he goes, for a ride, and, in full sympathy with the horse, it decided that the subject was too serious for comment.' Evidently members, when . taking their walks._abroad, had ee.eu the horse. . i, > Any way, Mr. Taylor's amendment was negatived on tlie Voices— a result that caused Mr. Taylor to remark that whenever a slack time came the pruning knife would have to he .put into the Estimates. At 10.5 p.m. the vote passed unaltered. " The Committee then turned to the consideration of the Colonial Treasurers Department, totalling £44,328. At the vote of £1000 for law costs of the Land and Income Tax Department Mr. Taylor said there must be a, large number of lawyers in the Government employ, and it was beyond his comprehension why money should be thrown away on outside firms. The colony must throw away a small fortune every year on legal expenses. If Ministers gav^ more attention to their Departments, they could save the colony £10,000 a year. We were going to have a. period of retrenchment in this country, and it was a pity 'wo did not make a start now to prepare for it Later Mr. Taylor took exception to the item "extra clerical assistance, £4700" on the ground that too many casual clerics were employed, while there were many young men who had passed- the Civil Service examination and who could not get employment. Mr. Duthie endorsed this argument, and Mr. Herdman made it the text of ,an advocacy of a Civil Service Board, adding that for want of such a, Board i many branches of the Civil Service- were becoming demoralised. For a, long time the debate had become dilettante and bland, and the Premier and Messrs. Fisher and Taylor, who did most of the talking, were in a high good humoui. On this item, however, Mr. Fisher declared that the Government, as compared with the private employer, sweated its employees — especially its temporary employees. Replying to reflections on the adminis-. trafion of certain Departments, the Premier said he would' not interfere with the administration of the Tax Department, but he declared that, with regard to the Commissioner of Taxes and the' Commissioner of Stamps, for one case they had lost they had gained twenty. " Incidentally, the Premier said the number' of people who sent in incorrect income tax Returns was surprising. "They, don't see any sin in doing the Government," - was the way in which he put the position before the House; Exception was taken by the Leader of the Opposition to the vote of £300, honorarium to W. Kennaway for services rendered to the stock and loan' agents, and he urgned that if the payment was justified it should have been charged against the loan and not against the Colonial Treasurer's Department. "Extra, work" was the themo of the Premier's reply, and as, to the cost of the last loan h<s declared that it would not cost much more than £25,000. He would give the information as soon as he was able. The Leader of the Opposition: — Besides the prepaid interest? Mr. Seddon : That's another matter entirely. That, he urged, did not come into the cost of raising the loan. Altogether the result was £97 ss. The -Leader of the .Opposition urged that the cost of the loan did not -include the prepaid interest-About £4000. That was part of: the cost of, floating the loan. ' " '•','" The Premier: !No, no. > Mr. Massey went on' to express the belief that the cost of the loan would be nearer £30,000 thaD- £25,000, and he urged that, a .return should be presented showing the actual cost of the loan. The colony, he contended, was paying 4 per cent, for a loan which did not net £97. Mr. Taylor upheld this contention, and declared that the Argentine, Peru, or Chili, or an ordinary local body, could do as well. The positioh was that eight months had gone by, and the Colonial Treasurer did not know anything about the terms on which the " money was raided last December. The Chairman of Committees ruled that such references were not in order — a ruling that Mr. Taylor got over by declaring that if Mr. Kennaway was "nob smart enough to help us out ' of our financial operations better ' thar ' £97 6"n a 4 per cent, loan, ib was time we gob rid of him." The point wast raised by the 'Premier that such* remarks were 'out of order. The £300 to Mr. Kennaway appeared on the Estimates because it had been "stuck up"- by the Auditor-General. It covered three years, and had nothing to 'do with the lost loan, which, he declared, realised £975,000. Mr. Taylor moved to strike out the iteih of £300 to Mr Kennaway. ' That person, he argued,, was already in receipt of a good income for a position which involved practically no work, and the payment of £300 now proposed could only be regarded as a bonus. 'It's all on a par with the concealment and want of frankneSfi that we are subjected to with regard to our public accounts. Wo are treated as though we were enemies to the country, instead of being given free access to information," added Mr. Taylor. A prior amendment was moved by Mr.. Duthio— viz., to strike out the item "expenses attending the annual drawing of debentures issued under tho Consolidated Loan Act, 1867, £336." The services given, ho urged, were not worth a quarter of the money. Tho Act of 1867, said the Premier, was the authority for uhe payment, and there was no help for it. Ib would go on for another eight years. He admitted that Mr. Kennaway received a salary of £760 a year, 'but he was' a valued officer, and ho did not think lie was overpaid. Mr. Duthie withdrew his amendment, but he complained that Mr. Kennaway had nob rendered the accounts of tho last loan, and he declared than the suppression was intentional. Tho Premier aaid he would 1 give the House the details of the expenses of tho last loan before the next " Imprest Supply Bill was brought down. - Changing his ground, Mr. Duthie madp the, point that the information regarding tho cost of the loan was kept back, not by Mr. Kennaway, but by the Premier, who could give it in five minutes if he liked. The House had a right to the information us soon as the Tl'JittiG met. The Premier said it was only recently that ho cabled Home Co enquire ns to the coot of the loan,, and he was told it iva* about £25,000. t Tho supreme interest that the House ns a whole takes in such an important matter as the expenditure of large sums of public money was very apparent from the attendance of members in the Chamber. At twenty minutes ufter midnight thei'o were thirty members present, including nineteen who might fairly be classed as Oppositionists, and one of tho remaining eleven Government members was piupab'.y asleep Tn addition to the Premier only one Minister (Mr. Hall- Jones), who also appeared to be asleep, took -Etiffioienb iflfrereot in tho

proceedings to put in an appearance. ] In fact, the attendance of the public in the galleries (and the public is paid nothing for attending) was far larger than the attendance of members (who arer paid £300 » year each for looking after the interests of the country). A quarter of an hour later the Minister for Railways, the Minister for Lands, and the Conunissionei of Customs were in their places, bufc even with that addition the amount of interest in the proceedings was slight indeed. At 20 minutes to 1 Mr. Taylor's amendment to strike out the payment of £300 to Mr. Kennaway was put. A division was challenged, and the ringing of the bell brought a few belated members into the Chamber. Thirty-three members voted against it, and six tor it — a. total of 39 out of 80 — and the clause was agreed to a minute or two later. By this time "that tired feeling" had so evidently got possession of the House that even the Premier agreed that it waa time to give up work for the week. The necessary report was made to Mr. Speaker, and just before 1 o'clock the House adjourned till 2.30 on Tuesday.