HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.
THURSDAY, JULY 19. The Speaker took the chair at two p.m. The prayers having beeu read, the minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed.
PBOVIKCIAL AUDIT ACT, 1861. Mr. O'Robke asked the Hon. the Colonial Secretary, " Whether it is the intention of the Government to aak. the Assembly to re enact the Provincial Audit Act, 1861, during the present session." The Hon. Mr. Stafford said the Government had » bill concerning ptovincial audit at present under consideration.
COMPENSATION TO FKIENDLTt NATIVES. Mr. Atkinson asked the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government, " Whether any compensation has been giren to Tanuti Kaweora, Mohi Bahui, or other friendly natives for horses or other , propertj taken or alleged to have been taken or destroyed by men in the Imperial or Colonial forces, in the month of February last, during General Chute's march from Tar an alii to Wanganui." He would also wish to ask whether any official reports had made on these losses, and, if so, whether these would be put on the table. The Hon. Colouel Hattltain said that no claim had been made, and no compensation therefore given. - On a former occasion, 9ome claims had been made, and Mr. P.irris had inquired into the claim?, and the horses taken from the friendly natives had been returned. The case had not been reopened, as the friendly natives had their remedy at law, if they felt themselves aggrieved, jusc as well as Europeans. The Hon. Mr. Stafford said that the Government would have no objection to lay any papers on the matter on the table of the House. The G-orern-~ ment would not receive any special claims for compensation from natives unless the claim had. I been already judicially prove .
COURT OF VICE- ADMIRALTY. Mr. Hall moved, " I hat in the opinion of this House the absence of an efficient machinery for the administration of the jurisdiction of the Court of ( Vi;e- Admiralty in 'the several provinces is a source [ of great inconvenience and injury to her Majesty's, subjects witfcin thia colony. That the Government ' be requested to take, with as littje«delay as possible, such steps as will enable the Judges of the Supreme Court within each province to exercise such jurisdiction." Mr. Stafford said that the Government recognised the necessity of some such step as this, and had drawn the attention of the Secretary of State to it. After one or two other remarks, the motion was carried.
CHAMBER OP THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Mr. Staword moved, " That a select committee be appointed to consider and report on the designs for a chamber for the House of Representatives, with especial view to increased accommodation being' afforded both for the Legislature aud the Executive of tbe colony, with power to confer with any committee appointed by the Legislative Council for the same purpose, and agree on a joint report. The committee to consist of Colonel De Quincey, Mr. FitzGerald, Mr. Cox, Mr. J. C. Richmond, and the Hon. Mr. Stafford." Mr. Vogel -eaid that he wished to move an amendment. He would like to have a better evidence of the necessity of having increased accommodation, and, having that evidence, they should call for competitive designs. The amendment which he had to propose was, " That the committee should only report on the necesssity for increased acconuaodatiou being afforded." When the con-
veniences of so uiany people were infringed by the small savings of the present Government, they should not lightly enter into this gieat work of expense, Mr. J. O'JSFeill seconded the .amendment, the more willingly as he remembered that £15,000 had been spent on the Government buildings. In a short time they would be asked to spend some £20.000 more, for Wellington required money to be spent upon it to keep it going. (Laughter.) Mr. FitzGerald said that in his opinion there could hardly be a doubt as to the necessity for increased accommodation. He was opposed to the system of tendering for designs for public buildings, as it tended to deteriorate art. Mr Hall was opf used to the motion. There was another work to which he thought they should turn their attention, which was more necessary for theu to do than building a chamber for themselves. He alluded to the absolute necessity of building a new residence for his Excellency. Mr. Whitakeb was also opposed to the motion. The whole question of providing fresh Government buildings in Wellington was one of very grave consideration. Mr. Cableton said that he noticed that Mr. Rumsey, the architect put it down that a stone building or plastered work was out of the question in Wellington, on account of the earthquakes. It would be better to delay this discussion until after tha Separation question was settled. He would, however, if the matter were pressed on, be prepared to vote with the original motion. After a somewhat desultory discussion, The Hon. Mr. Stafford replied. On Mr. Vogel's amendment being put, the House divided, and the amedmentwas lost. The members were : — Ayes, 24 ; noes, 33. The original motion was therefore carried. !
IKKEGtTLAR MOTIONS. The Speaker ruled that the following notices on. the paper vrere oue of order : — Mr. to move, " Th«it a select committee be appointed to consider and report on the petition of the Bank of New" South Wales ; such committee to consist of Mr. D. Bell, Major Richardson, Dr. F«atherston, Mr. FitzGerald, Mr. Campbell, Mr. James Williamson, the Hon. Mr. Stafford, and the mover, with power to send for persens, papers, and records ;stive to be a quorum, lleport to be brought up this day month." Mr. Eeynolds to move, "That it be a suggestion to the Select Committee on the Goldfields Act, that in summoning witnesses from Otago, care should be taken to incur no unnecessary expense, and that the evidence of the Commissioner of Crown Lands, and of the Secretary of u the Goldfields Department, might be held sufficient to enable the committee to report." The motions therefore, lapsed.
GOLDFIELDS ADMINISTRATION. Mx*. Macandrew moved, "That the order of reference to the Select Committee on the Goldfields Act be extended as follows : — • And that inasmuch as the administration of the goldßrids has been delegated to Provincial Executives, the Committee be further instructed to consider and report as to whether the power of legislation might not also with advantage be extemled to Provincial Legislatures ; or whether the administration as well as the legislation ought not to be in tbe hands of the General Government.' " Mr. Vogkl, as a member of the Goldfields Committee, protested against forcing opinions in this manner. Major I?IOHARDSON 'said that the Goldiieldi Committee had already too much work before them. Mr. Haughton suggested the propriety of withdrawing the motion, as the matter would necessarily come before the House at a future day. Mr. Cargill was iv favour of referring the matter to the Goldfielda Act Committee without delay. Mr. Hall said that this was a question for discagsiou of the whole House, and not for the decision of a select committee. Mr. J. C. Richmond suggested that the committe* ■h»u!d only report tbe evidence taken, and not report on the question of pulicy. The motion was then put and carried.
THI XHREI MILLION LOAX Majos Richardson moved, "That there ht> laid upon the table of the House * return showing in what provinces the money raised under the Three Million Loan Act has been expended, and under ■what heads in each, having reference to the divisions noted in the Loan Allocation Act, 1863."— Carried.
GOLDFIELDS COMMITTEE. Mr. Hall moved, "That the number of mem-bers-on the Goldfields Committee be iv creased to thirteen; and that the name of Mr, Cj,rgill be added to the committee." — Carried. Ajt half-past five the House adjourned for an hi>ur-and-a-half for refreshments.
MESSAGE. On resuming, at 7 o'clock, The Spkaker anuounced that he had received a message from the Legislative Council announcing that they had passed the Sale of Poisons Bill, and requeating the concurrence of the Lower flouee thereto. I The bill waa read a first time.
ANTEDATED CKOWN GHANTS BILL. Mr, Whitaker requested that the time for the Committee on the Antedated Crown Grauts Validation Bill to bring up their report be exteuded for j ten days.— Can ied.
NEWCASTLE CEO\TN GRANTS VALIDATION BILL. The Hon. Mr. Stafford moved the second readj ing of thi« bill. j Mr. G. Graham suggested that the native name of Ngaruavrahia, by -which the place was best knowu, shonld be substitnted for the English name of Newcastle. I The Hon. Mr. Stafford said that a great deal of | confusion would be saved by giving the English name in preference to the native one. The bill was read a second time.
! AKM.S ACT CONTINUANCE BILL. On the motion of the Hod. Colonel Hjlultaiw, the Arms Act Indemnity Bill was read a second ■time.
HTDEMNITr BILL. The second reading of this bill wai postponed to t he following day.
ADULTEBATION OF POOD BILL. . On the motion of the Hon. Mr. Jollie, this bill w« read a first time, aud ordered to be read a second time on the following day, IBIENDLY NATIVES' CONTRACT CONFIRMATION BILL. On the motion of the Hon. Colonel Haultain, (his bill was read a, secoud time. ' This bill was refened to the Select Committee on #oufiscated Lands.
' BUILDING AND LAND SOCIETIES BILL. On the motion of Mr. Stevbns, this bill was ordered to be referred to a, selejsfc committee.
REPRESENTATION ACT ABpiNDMENT BILL. Tbis bill was further considered in committee, after which the chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on the following day.
PROVINCIAL COMPULSORY LAND-TAKING BILL. This bill was ordered to be re-committed on Tuesday next. The House adjourned at 8. 30 p.m.
FRIDAY, JULY 20. The Speaker took the chair at 2 o'clock. PUBLIC PETITIONS COMMITTEE. Mr. C. Wilson brought up the report of this committee on certain public petitions. The Hon. Mr. Stafford said that the Government would recognise the claim of the Bank of New South Wales, but the ho^v and the when required grave considerHtion, because the Government had not determined that the colony should pay the debts of Southland to the bank, unless it was agreed that the Provincial and General Government's debts should be consoli- lated. He thought the bank should have an opportunity of coming in under the Act, and being paid by instalments like the other creditors.
KETURISr. A return of the expense of the sittings of the Legislature was laid on the table.
PROTECTION OF ANIMALS. Mr. 8,. Graham asked the Hon. the Colonial Secretary, " Whether it is the intention of the Government to amend the Act which provides for the protection of animals in "New Zealand." He said that various Acts had been introduced on this subject by the Premier, when he was a private member ; he hoped, therefore, he would introduce a further amendment in the law, as the animals were not " sufficiently protected. The Hon. Mr. Stafford said that the Government thought that this subject should not be dealt with by them, but they would "give every consideration to any bill inti-odnced by a private member. He was aware of the wholesale destruction of pheasants in the province of Auckland, but he did not think they were likely to be exterminated. They were, moreover, very good eating, as he could testify from frequent experience. Something, however, should be done to protect birds and other animals, arid the Government would assist any member in drawing •pabilL
POST OFFICE SAVINGS BANK. Mr. Ball asked the Hon. the Postmaster-General, -whether it is the intention of the Government to bring . into operation the Post-Office Sarings Bank Act, ' 1858,
The Hon. Mr. P ytcrson was happy to say that the arrangements for carrying out the Act wero nearly complete, and pavings tanks would be started in some of the larger po^t-oHices within a mouth by way of experiment, previously to their introduction all over the country. THE SUBMARINE CABLIS. '
Mr. Burns asked whether the Government wotild make such anangements as would give members au 01 ponunity of seem s ' the cable laid acrasi Cook's Sti» ts. 'l lie Hon. Mr. Stafford said that the Government <>id not know exactly when the cab c would be laid, whether next week or the Wf-pk after, for he hfiduot heard whether the 'We^mouth'hadiiisch'ir^d hpr cargo, he would be glad to mve in>-tnbetB an opportunity of weeing the oab'e laid, but thought the member for Parnell (Mi. Whitaker) should be conmi'ted as he was about t<> bring forward some resolntio is, to wh'Ch the Government would not consent. There would be three opportunities f->r members to see the caole laid — in tliesteamer towing, or in the steamer and man-of-war accompanying the sliip laying the cable. Mr. Whitaker said that his resolutions were coming on ou Tuesday ; und if the Government could give them piecedence to any other business, and if it was at ranged than the debate should be" continued from day to day wichout interruption, membeis could see the cable laid with a 1 the more satisfaction, for having come to a decision on his resolutions. The Hi n. Mr. Stafford said that^ the Government would give them piecedence to their own business, and if it was the wish of private members, he presumed that the debate 'would be continued tiriinfceiruptedly.
DISTRICT COURTS BILL. — IN COMMITTEE. The Hon. Mr. Stafford said that the Government was prepared to meet the/wishes of some member* by giving District Courts a concurrent jurisdiction in some cases with the Supreme Court, so that it would not be compulsory for people to go into those courts. The Government was als* prepared to make other concessions, Mr. WHITAKER moved the omission of clause' 7, as he thought ie would give a too extensive jurisdiction to tbe courts in crimiual cases, such as burglary, horse-stealing, and sheep-stealing. Mr. FitzG-euald rose, to protest against tie idea that the population of Westland should not have the benefit of a judge of the Supreme Court, and said that he would raise the queition on another occasion. It had been admitted by the Government that it was most difficult to get competent men to si tin these courts, as the pay. was too small. He looked on tbem with great dread. On the question being put that the clause sband, the committee divided : — Ayes, 12 '; Noes, 41. 1 he clause was therefore expunged. Mr, FitzGerald suggested that the Acts on District Courts should be consolidated. The Hon. Mr. Stafford said that there \rould be some difficulty in consolidating the law, as many members thought itgayetoo extensive powers already. He could not say positively that he would take steps in thab direction, but he hoped he would be able to do ■o.
POISON ADMINT*TBATIOtf PREVENTION BILL. The Hou. Mr. Stafford said that this bill -vras founded on the laws at home. He begged to move the second readiug of it. The bill was read a second time.
ARMS ACT CONTINUANCE BILL. IST COMMITTEE. Mr. FitzGebald said that it had been usual to pasi this Act from session to session, uitwss to some extent unconstitutional. He hoped a clause would be, inserted to the effect that it should remain iv force only for five years. The Hon. Colonel Haultain assented to the amendment, and it was agreed to,
INDEMNIIY BILL. The Hon. Colonel Haultain moved the second reading of this bill. Mr. George Graham rose to oppose the bill, as it would indemnify persons unjustly. The natives had been proclaimed British subjects, and the courts of law should therefore be open to them, after the proclamation of peace, He knew of an unarmed friendly native who had been killed on the expedition being made to the East Coast to arrest the murderers of Mr. Volkner. Mr. FitzGerald said that the steamer was fired on from the shore, and it was necessary to retaliate. And with regard to the native referred to, he might have been unarmed, But it was well- known that the Haubaus believed that their priests could make them invulnerable. He would also mention that the Opotiki district was specially excepted in the proclamation. If the bill was a similar one to that passed last session, the House should pass it. Mr. Atkinson said that the object of the bill was to indemnify persons who had been engaged in the suppression of the native rebellion, but the effect would be very different. It would indemnify persous for outrages which had been committed on friendly natives. It was a farce to say that the courts of law were open to the natives, when an Act was brought in to close them against them. Mr. Bkyce opposed the bill, as it would legalize outrages which had been committed not only against natives but against Europeans. He knew of a, storekeeper who had been imprisoned by the soldiery unjustly, yet he could do nothing to obtain redress in consequence of the Indemnity A ct. Mr. Fitzherbekt supported the bill, as he conceived it to be absolutely necessary. If this bill was not passed, the result would be that a number of grievances would be trumped up ; not that he meant to say that the case mentioned by Mr. Bryce was of that nature. A large portion of the public estate had been squandered away, as he conceived, already, in paying compensation to persona who alleged that they had received damages, because there had been no such Act as this. If any person, native or European, had a grievance, the courts of law might be shut to him by this Act, but he still would have the right of appeal to the House. Mr. Caeliton was of opinion that there should be such a bill as the present one ; but he thought that the Government should find out the exceptions to it aud propose compensation. Mr. J. C. Richmond had no intention to oppose the bill, for it was a necessary one and should be pretty nearly absolute, but the prospect of a bill like this should not cause any Government to be lest careful in its instructions. He should like to know whether in the case of this .Act being pleaded as a defence to any action or prosecution, it would be necessary to obtain tbe assuiance of the Governor that this Act covered the offence. The Hon. Mr. Stafford said that the Government had no desire to huiry this bill through the House, in the way the Indemnity Act was passed last session, although there might have been very good reasons for that haste, which were not now in Mr. Richmond^ mind. The bill was intended to indemnify the act* both of the present and the late Governments. The Premier then alluded to th© good effects on the natives here of the transportation of certain of them to the Chatham Islands. They begun now to see that they could not engage in acts of rebellion with impunity The Premier then alluded to the West Const campaign, stating that Dr. Featherston had accompanied the expedition, but in what capacity he did uot know. He was not aware that it was ueccessary t" obtain an instrument from the Governor on the Act being pleaded, but he presumed that the mere fact of its being on the Statute Book would prevent proc sses. He might say that since the Act was passed last session, it had not been pleaded. As regards what the member for Chtiatchurch had «aid about Ministerial lesponsibility, he quite agreed that it was difficult to bring home to Ministers any direct responsibility. He could tell that hon. member that it was more difficult to get Ministers than to get rid of them. Be had the best reasons for giving an opinion on the .subject. £aud he could only say that the trouble aud auuovance of office was such that Ministers were glad when they gave up. No Ministry, of course, liked to be beaten, and when it had commenced a. work, the spirit of Englishmen made them anxious to carry it through. Still, when once they got out, they felt glad aud relieved. If more responsibility were attached to office, Ministers would not be got at all. Ministers did not want this bill urgently for themselves, and so far from having heard ot any great necessity for it, he would gladly delay its operation as long as possible. If the member for Christ church agreed on his own part— for he must remember that it was required to legalise acts of the last Government — the Government had not the slightest objection. After a few words from the Hon. Colonel HjLULTiIN, in reply, the bill was read a second time.
ADULTERATION 01 FOOD BILL. The Hon. Mr. Joixie moved the second reading of this bill. Mr. Cableton «>aid be approved of the principle of the bill, but it should be recollected that the tradesmen here were dependent on their correspondents at home. He thought that .November was too eaily a date for the bill to come into operation, and that people Bhould.contiuue to be poisoned a little longer. The Hon. Mr. Jollie in' replying said that there could be no objection to the extension of the time. The bill was read a second time.
BEPBESENTXTION JLOT AMENDMENT BILL, The House went into committee on this bill, and after some discussion on its details the Home rtsumcd.
rOWEBS OF SELECT COMMITTEES. The Hon. Mr. Jollie 9aid that it would occasion a considerable expense if witnesses were summoned from a distance to attend select committees. Committees had no doubt the privilege «f summoning whatever witnesses they chose, but it was one that' might be abused It had appeared, therefore,- to the Government, that where more than two or three witnesses were required from a distance, th« « ish of the House should be obtained He begged to move, "That it be an order of th« Hoxise for the session, that no select committee be authorised to summon witnesses before it who may reside at a distance above ten miles from the city of Wellington, unless upon special leave of the House first given." Mr. Key^olds was glad that this motion had been brought forward, as at present select committees hadpowertorunthecountryto w hatever expense they thought proper He then proceeded to suppose a case of a select committee, *cry similar to onft then sitting, s> mmoning witnesses unnecessarily. . After some discussion, in the course of which several members spoke against the resolution, as trenching on the privileges of select committees without good grounds, and as likely to cause delay and trouble in transacting business. The Hon. Mr. Stafford said that the object of the resolution had been partly, attained by the . debate. With regard to the payment 'of witnesses, it cost a great deal of money, and that did not appear to be considered by the members of select committees. He believed that this discussion would occasion an improvement in that respect,, and for this reason the Government did not wish t'o^u^ss the motion. ■ After some further discussion, the resohition was withdrawn.
DR. SAMDEL'S CLAIMS. The names of Mr. Ball, Mr. Cox, and Mr. Jame« Williamson were added to the committee on these claims.
GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS. Tfiennmeof Mi\ C. O'Neill was added to the committee on this subject.
GENERAL GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE. On the motion of Mr. Bunny, assisted by Mr. Vogel, Major JRichardson, and Mr. Whitaker, it ■was ordered that returns be laid on the table of the expenses of the General Government Printing Office and amount of -work done from July Ist, 1865, to June 30th, 1866, distinguishing working expenditure from plant and material, and what the work done at the printing office would have cost, estimated at the least contract price.
MAJOR FRASERS DESPATCH. Mr. G-. Graham said that he had seen a copy of Major Frasers despatch of 21st November, 1865, in - the newspapers, and it would appear that natives bearing a flag of tmce were fired on. He, would move, "That there be laid on the table a copy of a despatch from Major Fraser, commanding forces at Turanganui, dated 21st November, 1865 ; as well as any other despatches written by . the same officer in the months of November and December, 1865." , Mr. McLean said that the Hauhails had determined not to respect any flag of truce and to vise such a flag to deceive the colonial forces. He had received trustworthy information to the effect that the natives bearing the flag referred to had hostile ■ intentions. The return was ordered.
NATIVE ATFAIRS. Mr. CrEOBGB Graham, after making some remarks on native affairs, moved, "That there be laid on the table a return showing the number of Maoris who have been transported to the Chatham Islands, the crimes with which they are charged, the names of the Judge or Resident Magistrate before whom they were tried, the sentences passed on them, and the total expense attending the same." Mr. McLean, in reply to some remarks of Mr. George Graham, said that the natives on the East Coast had been dangerous even twenty years ago ; it could not, therefore, be said that the arming of _ the Arawas by the Government had caused them to fight. It was in consequence of the Hauhau superstition that they had risen. He regretted to hear the mover use language which would suit the Aboriginal Protection Society, with Lord Shaftesbury in the chair, very well, but would aot do at this time' of day in this House. The Hon. Mr. Staff oed said that the Government did not see that the returnjwould do any good, but they would furnish the number of Maoris sent away, and expense attending them. He moved an . amendment to that effect. Mr. Geokge Graham, in reply, said that Mr. McLean had made a somewhat personal allusion to him, and lie hoped that that member would in future be more correct in his statements. He would ' accept the Premier's amendment. The amendment was agreed to.
THE GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS. Mr. Whitaker moved that the names of Mr. Vogel, Mr. Dillon Bell, and Mr. Reynolds be added to the committee on this subject. Mr. Vogel. wanted to know what he had done that this honour should be done him. He had spoken on the subject on the previous day, and in the course of a debate had been attacked by the Premier in a most malignant manner. While the • Premier was looking another way the Defence Minister rose to speak, on which he (Mr. Vogel) said so to a member sitting beside him who was somewhat amuSed. The Premier thought he was being laughed at, and becoming angry, made the attack referred to. He objected to being placed on this committee, as he was already on the Goldfields Committee, and" if the resolution was passed he would bring one forward to place the membear for Parnell (Mr. Whitaker) on the Dr. Samuels' Committee. He would move, as an amendment, that his name be expunged from the resolution. Mr. Whitaker, in replying, stated that he had moved the resolution in all sincerity with the view ' of increasing the efficiency of the committee. He had proposed Mr. Vogel's name because he appeared to represent his own view — that was as to whether these additional buildings were necessary^ He was sorry to hear that member charge him with bring-, ing forward an absurd resolution ; he appeared to have a quick tongue, which he allowed to get the better of his discretion. He had no desire to press for the addition of Mr. Vogel's name. On the question being put, the resolution was' agreed to without amendment.
MB. COREMAN'S DEFALCATIONS. Major Richardson moved, "That there be laid on the table of this Bouse all correspondence connected with the asserted defalcation in the accounts of the late Queen's' Bailiff and Sheriff of Dunedin, Mr. Coreman." Mr. Vogel said that he had heard that defalcations of this kind were very frequent. The Premier had blamed the late Ministry for some of them, under whose regime they were very common. He would suggest that the resolution be amended, so as to include all correspondence on other defalcations of public servants since the accession of the late Ministry to office. The Hon. Mr. Stafford said that he had never made any imputation on the late Ministry on account of defalcations of public. servants. Unfortunately these losses had.taken place under several .Ministries, owing to bonds not being given, but he knew that the late .Ministry had made attempts to- alter the system they fcund in existence, and require bonds to be given by gentlemen having the charge of public moneys. , Major Richardson said he was deeply indebted to the Premier for his defence of the late Ministry ; it was scarcely necessary to say that the observations made by Mr. Vogel were the result of a diseased imagination. He must object to the amendment. The resolution was agreed to.
THE GOUMTELDS COMMITTEE. Mr. Burns moved that the members of the Goldfields Committee be not compelled to serve on any other comniittee-tintil the report be brought up. Mr. C. Wilson spoke against the resolution. Mr. Cakleton said that he doubted the propriety of this resolution, according to the rules and orders of the House. The proper way of carrying «ut its object would be to move for the discharge of the members of the Goldfields Committee from other committees. But if that was done several committees would have to be reconstituted, which would cause much inconvenience. 'J he Speaker expressed an-opinion that the matter should be referred to t!he Standing Orders Committee. n0 The motion was withdrawn.
MAQISTKATES' COURT, LYTTELTOX. On the motion-of Mr. Hargreaves, x return was ordered of all correspondence relative to the building now used as, the Resident Magistrates' Court at Lyttelton.
OTA<2O "WASTE LANDS CONSOLIDATION BILL. Mr. Dick, in introducing a bill to consolidate and amend the law relating to the sale, letting, and occupation of -waste lands of the Crown within the province of Otago, shortly explained the object of it. „ The bill was read a first time The House adjourned at twenty minutes past 10 p.m., till Tuesday.
TUESDAY, JULY 24. The Speaker took the chair at 2 o'clock. Prayers were Tend, and the minutes of the last meeting were readied confumed.
rAJPJERS. Tho following pape\s were Li I on tlte table l>y Miuirfo.s : — Financial pnyisrs for tho last; eleven years ; correspondence as to Vico-Admiralty C mvti ; report as to|ii&vr ko's Biy p 'troleum ; oorrOTiwadonce relative to n maco for the House of lloprestMitativoS ; " "papers relative to tho three rtullion loan ; papers relative to clsiiiiis of tho late Colouel Nixou's sisters; report ot Major Eraser of Turaugamii.
DEBENTURES. I Mr. Stattord took tho opportunity to abate thab the debentures had been sold at home ab92, notwithstanding the late panic thvro, and th:il the Ohancelior of the Exchequer had proposed, to the Iton jo of Commons that the Imperial guarantee should bj t;iveu to tbo ha'f-juilliou debentures remitbod home last year.
GOVKRNMKNT LAND SALES. Mr. Carletox asked the Colonial Secretary, "Wheilier it ia his intention to bring in a bill to make provision for tho more effectual prevention of irbat ia ordinarily termed 'crossing ;' i.e., tbo buying *v)ff of intending bidders at Goverumeut land sales when made by wAy of public auction." Mi\ faTATFOKD replied that he doubted whether any-Acb could be drafted in such terms that it would not be evaded. He would, however, give a more definite answer in A dfcy'ot- two.
ABM 1 ? ACT'CONTINUANCE BILL. This bill wag reported, the amendments" agreed to, and the bill icad a third t ; me and passed. PROVINCIAL COMPULriOHY LAND TAKING BILL. This bill was also reported, read a third time, and
-^r SEPARATION. \ Mr. Whitaxer,, on rising to move the Separation resolutions standing in his name, was received with iond -cheers. As soon as silence was restored, he said it had been his intention to take a different course from that he was now about to pursue. Instead of bringing forward a series of resolutions on • the subject, it had been his intention to briug forward a single resolution only, in order to teat tue opinion ot the House as to whether any new form of •government was necessary. It appeared to him that this would be the most convenient course ; but when he came to consult with tome gentlemen of the Home, and to hear what had been, and was likely to be, said on the subject, it appeared to him that the direction in which any alteration was proposed should be stated. When they came to discuss ths question, he had no doubt that the detail* involved in it would be fonnd to be consistent with the general principle;, but. it would be his object to confine himself to the broad general principle, as to whether any change in the was necessary. ffcteajy-liearr) The resolution that he originally intended to propose was of a general character, but on showing it to the hon. member at the head of the Government, that gen>le- * man, who was certainly not very complimentary to him, thought that it was extremely unworthy of him to briug forward a resolution in such a shape as the one proposed, which was to the effect that the present form of government in jthe colony of New Zealand was unsatisfactory, aud ought to be changed* On that resolution, he intended to argue that the form of "government pursued in this colony was specially unsatisfactory to the 'province of Auckland, and, perhaps, to .some other pans of the colony. It would very much shorten the discussion to now confine, it to the principle involved in the question, and then discuss the details, in '"Committee ; and this was precisely the course he intended to pursue. He intended iv the resolutions to show that the time had come for a change in the Constitution aud form of government especially with regard to the "province of Auckland, and he should also have alluded to the necessity of a change in the of government of the whole, colony, aud have made some general propositions as . to the government of the Northern portion/of the colony; but his hon. friend's (Mr«~ -Stafford^) objections luuUperauaded him for take * different course in order to meet his views and those of other members. lie still desired thab the question should be discussed in a general form, and thut the details should be diacuased iu-.«6mmHtee, as was the case \\ithJsills, as it would shorten the discussion and facilitate the work of the House. With that /view he should continue as far as he could to show I hat the colony at the preseat time, and especially the Northern portion of it— (his friends had confined him to that) — required some alteration in the form of government. He should also express his views on the necessity of a change in the government of the rest of the colony, and should be glad to give any member assistance in working out a scheme which would suit his part of the colour. It had been pointed out to him that in making propositions for the £est of the colony he was unduly interfering in 'olner people's aHSifs ; therefore, in'orSer to Svbid all these difficulties, he believed he had-I;*ken what would no doubt be considered by the* hon. member opposite, who was taking notes, *nd by others, a vary judicious Course. ■He did not wish to see the note, but would much rather hear it commented on hereafter than take it in the diy-bone form iv which it now was. He was induced also to take this course in consequence of the liberal view taken the other day by the hon. member at the head of the Government. He (Mr. -"Whitaker) inquired -of Jura, and he replied that he did not consider that it was his duty or that of the Government-to do so, but if the people of Auckland wanted a dbange, it was their duty to bring the. matter forward. At the .same time the Premier Blade .a moat liberal •promise ; he was sure the House would agree with him in thinking it so. Ue-(th«fc-P«mM*) said that if he (Mr. Whitaker) introduced a" measure within the four corners of Mr. Cardwell's despatch, of which the Governor approved, with, which Auckland was satisfied, and which the Houae would accept— (a. laugh)— it would receive the favourable consideration of the Government. (Laughter.) So desirous was the Premier to give his assistance, thai; it would be very wrong in him (Mr. Whitaker) to reject his advice. He would say a few words . with reference to the courae the Premier took. He did think it wai not the coune the Government, and not the course whicht under the circumstances, the Premier ought to have taken. It did appear iv him that when discontent aud disaffection (he could czll it •by no other name) raged in a certain poztion of the colony, it was the duty of the Government to inquire into the matter, and make some proposition to remedy it, or at once to say boldly that the discontent and disaffection were not weil grounded. "X "did appear to him that it was the duty of the Government to come forward "with some proposition,' or to have said (as he now repeated), that there was no ground for the discontent. His hon. friend stated Van dhe had made a note of it at the tim&ihat hi did hot consider it his duty or that of tne Government to bring forward any i question subversive of the Constitution.' That, he (Mr. Whitaker) thought, was' begging the question. It did not follow that > because discontent existed there should be any subversion of the Constitution ; it would be open to the Premier to propose some change or alteration, and he (Mr. Whitaker) submitted that every change would not be a subversion. The other day he heard this •"doctrine laid down by atmember, that it was -only for him to show a grievance, and it was then the duty of the Government to provide, a remedy. However that might.be, ho accepted the onus thrown on him, and was perfectly" ready to undertake th» task. He would- endeavour to satisfy the HoHse that there was in the Northern portion of the colony a certain amount of disaffection and discontent which no Government could properly disregard, fo*' to permit it to continue wa3 dangerous ; either it was the duty of the Government to show that the discontent was wholly unfounded,.or to come forward, if 'they admitted it {and the Premier did admit i&), witfi some remedy not subewive of the Constitution. He was afraid, before he had done* 1 that he should weary the H#use, but tliis was an important question, aud he promised that he would not detain them any longer than he could help. He wished to call attention _to the - exact" position 'of the" Northern Island with regard to population and. other things, which should be understood in considering his propositions. If hon. members would look at the papers on the table they would find that on the 31st December, 1865, they2forthern Island contained 77,500 inhabitants, (viz.J Auckland, 49,605 (including the military) ; TaWfcflri, 4,000; Wellington, 19,000; and Hawke's BZy, 4,000. The House would see the object with which, he was troubling it with these statistics. In 185& the >uative population in A nckland numbered 30,000, in^Taranaki 3,000, in Wellington 8,000, and in Hawke's Bay 3,600. No doubt since 1858 there had been a diminution in the number— perhaps 20 per cent.' That would leave in Auckland 30,000, aud in the three "other provinces 12,000, making 42,000. That was the population they had to deal with in Auckland— 49,ooo Europeans and 30,000 Natives, making 80,000 persons, which, after deducting the military— about 5,000 persons— would leave aa.near as possible a population of 75,000. He needed not-to go into the question or Customs revenue and other things, for ao doubt honourable member* -understood them. His object was to- - show that the Ijroviuce of Auckland, ■as regarded revenue, population, aud area, 'was not so insignificant that it could be charged with arrogance in- asking fdr some local form of government centered in itself. Auckland, as compared with, other places which, had Or
baen m ulc separate colonies, stood high, 'as appeared from tho vepuvfc of the Mid<tie Island Association,*, (a8 lie believed it was called) which was formed' with a view to obtain Separation. That body collected statistics to show that Clio are* of the Middle Island was -quite largo enough__for a separate ■colony, rs*lso its population. JTha boa. membm 1 tliea r«acsnstafcist. : c«f of Trinidad, Jamaica, Van Dienieii'fflsiirtl, and other j>l-iees, comparing th-m mth those of Auckland."} Auckland was. larger, with one exception, Una day oi fcho places ho had mentioned.' lie wi^d the House to undeislainl this, so that they ]ai<rht sco that Auckland Was of a suttijiunb size to be eu titled to a separate \govern» tnsnt. There were three piopositiQns which he should endeavoi • to make out to tho satisfaction •of tho House. Iri tho- fit at place, lie should endeavour to show that there wal a great deal of discontent at present existing in Auckland, and that it was well founded. JJe should then'show that some remedy was required, and (should pic-bose one, not in all ifc3 details, but generally such a one as would answer the purpose. With regard to the proof that the jifovmco of Auckland was disc ontented at the present time, ho would refer ta an association, ot which a great deal had beon said from time to tituo, * T/izj the Northern Association; it was established for the purpose of obtaining Separation in some form] He was not ' aware that they had fixed on the details of any scheme, but their general object was to have some local Government competent to deal with the affairs of Auckland without referring to any other part of the colony. The next point to which lie should allude would bo the petition of the inhabitants of Auckland, being a large portion of the male population, asking for the same thing. Then there was the last election ; he had retired from politics, in order that he might' attend better to his' own affairs, and it was his intention not to enter political life «gaiii ; but, I he felt that this was an important question, and as the people were so united on it, they, knowing his i views thought (perhaps their view was a mistaken on«) tha.t he should be made Superintendent. And he was elected on this understanding, that he should not be called on to hold any office after Separation was obtained. He alluded to this because he was elected without any opposition ; indeed, he did not think any opposition would have been successful. He ' did not say tbis on personal grounds, for he was not vain, but he was returned onaccouut of the advocacy which it was known he would give to the cause. The election of memb&rs for the Provincial Council took place after that of Superintendent, and he said that the people should elect none 'but separalionists. lie could now state that there was *nofc a constituency from the North Cape to 'the Tanpo in which a man would have stood a shadow of a chance, if he had not said that he wan in favbur -of Separation. These were important facts ; from time to time tbeie h.id bteu public meetings in Auckland 1 of a most unanimous description, afc which the very name of Separation had caused much excitement ; and there was at the present time in Auckland an amount of discontent and disaffection which he was sorry to see, and he would appeal to the House to-day to go into committee on his resolutions because it was a thing which ought not to be ignored or 'disregarded by the ..Government or the Assembly. The next eyent was^ the election of members for the House of Representa? tives. He had told the House a few days after he came here that the bond of union of the Auckland members was Separation, that on that they were united — and whether "they had any defaulter, he was not able to say ; he did not think they would have ; at all events if any member' in the House now representing an Auckland constituency had said on the hustings|that he did not represent Separation he would not have been in the House to-day, and he -'(Mr. "Wliitaker). asserted that, if any such me^nber was not a Separationist. he was here under ,false pretences. He would only, weary, the House if he detailed all the grounds for --the, existing dis- ' content, but his honourable ■friehd~%tMrA"Staffor&)dicTuot deny the 'existence of it— in 'point' of fact said the other day, to a question put to him, that ' a large amount of discontent or disaffection (he*forgot which word was used) did exist in Auck&nd. In order, however, 'to satisfy new members^' h© would go a little more into detail. He woiild beg of them not to put the question aside as a disagreeable one, because, if this discontent went on, it would lead to some serious disaster,; he wpuld therefore appeal to the House to. fairly consider the question, but he' would not g» into the questiok as to how far other provinces were dissatisfied, though he did not think that they were altogether satisfied. It was* only the other day that the -ne^Sftember for Clutha (Mr' Macaudrew) brought forward a proposition with reference to the goldfields, which did ' not show satisfaction. It "was..* 0 *kejeffect that the people there would rioE have"* "donbleTGoveMiinent. That was a most important interest, and what they wanted was some 1 strong iiistantly acting 'government over them. If he understood the matter rightly, they said, " Give us the whole management or take it yourselves. " That might be practicable with regard to goldfields there was not so much risk ruu in them as in "amative affairs. ~;AT*want of immediate action might 'bring about a little delay, might cause some inconvenience 911 the goldfields, but in Native affairs a false step or a want of immediate action mighif^bring about disastrous consequences. In addition to this there was among all the Southern provinces a certain amount of dissatisfaction with regard to finance, at which he did not wonder, for they had a partnership of unlimited liability, and were paying for things over which, except for once a year, they had very little control ; there Avas not, therefore^ all that peace and happiness, the lion and the lamb lying down together, that an hon, member said there was ; there was a certain amount of dissatisfaction in the Southern provinces, and especially m Otago. This was something which called for the interference of the Government and the House ; and it was because the Government threw the burden on him that he had undertaken the duty they should have performed. It had been said that the removal of the seat of Government had created much soreness in Anckland ; he remembered a former member of the House, Mr. Fox, telling him that that soreness would wear off, and that the colony would soon be united and content. He (Mr. Whitaker) pointed out that the reason why that could not possibly be ; that the feeling for Separation was of older date than the removal of the seat of Government, and so far from dying out would increase in intensity. He could appeal to the House and to his hon. friend (Mr. Stafford), who well knew what was going on in the province, to know whether that feeling was dying out, or was likely to die out. It was the duty of the Government to take up the question, for it was an old one. Before the Constitution Act was passed even, the province of Auckland felt that New Zealand would ac better governed with twoVpvemments than with one. He mentioned this, for the province possessed the seat of Govern- . ment at that time, to show that they wer,e not selfish. But after the ConstitutionJAct was passed, on the sitting'of the Provincial Council, in , 1855, a resolution was passed, unanimously pointing out the desirability of Separation to both jSorth ( and 'South, and a petition was signed to that effect. In 1555 the -Provincial ' Council adopted the same course, and also in 1858, 1861, and 1865. r So it has been going on for the' last thirteen years, during which time the province had been bent on having a separate" f 01 in of "fcovernmeufc. He woul.l remind the- House that all "these petitions, with the exception of the last, were sent .Home at the time Auckland had the seat of (government, so that the "feeling had not been caused by the removal of the seat of Government. He waa anxious to impress this on honourable members, or 1 they might fall into 'the error of Mr. - Fjox iv supposing" that the feeling was an ephemeral one ; it was too deeply seated for ' that. Bis second proposition was that 'there were reasonable grounds for this discontent. It was not his intention to cast any imputation on the past, present, or any member of any Government, but he would endeavour, if possible, to satisfy the House that he had grievances, and he would then appeal to the members as Englishmen to take some steps to remedy the grievances by adopting his proposals or whatever others " they might think fit, He deprecated any attack on past Goveinmeuts, bf cause it would only lead to angry feeling, which "would not advance the position of the House, or the interest of any part of the colony. He thought it was not desirable on any account that any imputation should be made against past G overnments. It would not be wis?, just, or generous to rake up the past, nor did he intend to do so, but it would be necessary for him to make out his case to to notice the acts of the present and former Government?; not that the members of them had wilfully done to the proviuce any wrong, for he attributed the erils to the distance at which the governing body wns fjom the governed, * by which many things had been done improperly, and many things had been done which ought not to have been done. If he showed that that was caused ftom the seat ofGovernment ascompaied with Auckland, he had then made out his case, that a local Government was required in the Northern portidn of this island. All he could say at the present mo.roenifc was that, with regard to \ative affairs, everything appeared to him for some time past to have beea going exbe'ssivilycrobked 'and wrong. It was only ■ince bis election ia October that he had h«en able to see certainly what waa going on, having been both I
Supeiinfceruleuß find agent for llio "fionei.il Government, ami many things hadpome umlei his i>otkseto which otherwise hs woukl not hcve scon ; he v\ astheic- |; foi c in a position to point out in vi hal way thcje things were goiug wrong, and he thought h« could convince the House that they were going wrong, and that something must be done. There was a very important institution which had been working in the N ovthern part of this island — lie meant the Native Lands Court. This had changed the whole position of native lands. The lands ot the / ifatives and of the Government were intermixed, and many inconveniences had arisen, because access was lequircdto documents at Wellington to show that land claimed by the natives belonged to lilie Government. On occasion he had written to the Colonial Secretary for some documents required, and was told in reply that no inconvenience had been caused in Hawke's Bay oY Taranaki in similar circumstances. [The flon. ' Mr. SrAPKOKD : HWas that tko whole answer ? " ] He was speaking uvbirely from recollccliou/but his lion, friend no doubt had the letter in Ihe other room ; at all events his honourable friend would u6t dibpute that"* the documents did not come. [The Hou. Mr. Staffokd : '.'I do dispute it ; tlio" documents did go."l\ His memory was a 'little at fault; if he would ]£ok-at the first letter, ho would find that tlie documents did not come. He (Mr. Win taker) asked an 1 lion, friend, who held the office of Secretary of Crown Lands, why they did not come, and he replied, ci Look how beautifully they arc all arranged — you wouldn't disturb them." Ho replied^ "Yes, they look very beautiful here, but what is the good of, iliem. after you lose your lands '?" "With regardutd'tliese claixus he -would go a little move into dotail; "because' it was an important subject. He wished, to. show tliat this Avas happening from day to day and week to wqekj and that some alteration was' necessary in the management of native affairs, ' He was under some apprehension as to what he should' hoar about the claims for land in Hokianga, for tl\e jarativ'es could put any lands into the Court, and if no one apjwared to oppose their claims the lands Wuld be given to them. There 'was no land of reason why he should not find his house and garden in town gone when he returned to Auckland. Natives were not particular as to boundaries,, and would enfcroach in all directions, and. as an instance he might say that 'they had absolutely claimed Raugitoto, Whangapoa, and the" island on which the lighthouse was placed. ' It was therefore necessary to keep the e*ye of sin Argiis upon them. A short time ago a difficulty, arose between the Arawa tribe and another with respect to their lands ; and he had pointed out to the Arawas that they were wrong, but they said that' there were papery on the subject which could not be found, and the matter could not be settled. Ilf1 lf they had the jfa'tive" records in Auckland theyjcould have referred to them and settled the matter at once. j[n the North there was a block of land most valuable to the province, but the natives were claiming bits of it, and a few months ago Mr. White, who was the only man that could havo settled the matter^ had tp come down to Wellington for dative papers, and from that go back and up th«t ' Waikato, so that the Laud Court at Hokiauga had to be postponed. All this was badly managed which might be obviated if there was a local Government in Auckland. With ' regard to the native affairs" generally, he might say that his h»u. friend at the head of ( the Government knew that their old friends th« Arawas were very much dissatisfied, and that nothing was being done to settle the matter. This would not be the case if there was a local G'overuinenfc, which would know what was going on amongst them. » There was one cage of such importance that he must go into it more deeply— he meant that question at Tauranga. [The hon. member heie referred to a correspondence between himself and the Oeneral Government.] He did nrtt bring these matters forward to Bhow that the Government Wiis wilfully negltfcting Auckland, but that from their position they were unable to give it that attention which it absolutely requhed. This was -the point he wished to press upon the House, and he would now refer to that question of the lands at Tauranga. In 1864 he accompanied the GoVernor to Tauranga, to receive the submission of the Ngaiterangi tribe. Their lands were forfeited for rebellion, but inasmuch as their system of warfare was more civilized than that of any other tribe, Jiis Excellency promised to give thenLback a large portion of their lands, and only keep l>p,O(J(s acres. They were pleased with this, but they were situated in the middle of a number of hostile tribes, and hoped that settlers would be placed on their land as soon as possible. It was so promised to them, and that the laud should be surveyed at once. This was in August, 1864, and the matter rested there, notwithstandingfrequent complaints and reports from surveyors and othefrSj, wEich,""on* Bemg~senlTintd "the^enliral'G6v~erlmleln£ had nothing but the ominous word "file " written on them, and ther« they were left. A great deal hadbeeu said about the Church-Missionary claims. In August of 1564 the trustees said they were ready to negotiate, but nothing whateverwas done in the matter. These things again showed that unless the Government was on the spot it could not cope with the difficulties, s».nd it proved the necessity for a local Government in Auckland. He would now refer to what was going on at Opotiki. He believed that, if the matter had had been left in his hand«, these Opotiki claims would have been long ago settled, but his hon. friend at the head of the Government seemed to be frightened of them ; he was alarmed at what had taken place at the Compensation Court at Taranaki. It was a most important thing, if possible, to settle such matters out of Couit, whether they related to European orjarative affairs, and more especially the latter. These affairs at Opotiki might easily have been settled, and now they were tt be thrown into Court, the decision of wbiuh was not understood by the Natives, and was never thoroughly acquiesced in by them. Again, there were those unfortunate murders in the Bay of Plenty— the Rev. Mr. Volkner and Mr. Fulloon. Thert was a case of all othei s where prompt action was necessary, not perhaps by w*r, but by negotiating with the neighbouring tribes, when Kereopa would, by thii time, have been tii> d, hanged, and forgotten; but this could uot bedoHe, because theie was not a local Government with supreme authority. These were not all the ca»es fie {wpu'd bring forward, but he would now ask whether such evils should be allow e J to exisr, without considering 4 the question of a separate Government at all. He hoped that, whatever might be the fate of his resolutions, tha Government would , bring forward some measure to remedy the evils, and that the House would assist in doing so, for it was their duty to do so. (Hear, hear.) There was some apprehension felt among the settlers that no steps were taken for organising a permanent force for the defence of the North Island. On this he must say that any Militia Act would be ineffective. What was wauted was Some force ready at all times. Ihe settlers saw that the troops were being removed and were alarmed, whereas, if the people of Auckland had their own Government, they could at once take necessary steps for their defence. What was the proEosition of the General Government on this subject c did not know. If hon. gentlemen from the , South felt that their outlying districts were liable to be attacked at any moment, they would feel uneasy, and this was just the case in Auckland. Now, with regard to the arguments as to the seat of Government, he would merely say that, having removed it for their own convenience, they had nevertheless removed it from the centre of the population to the end of the island. It was "not a question of inconvenience or convenience with them, but absolutely of danger. They, had now removed the government of the Aatives from the midst of them,an& instead of making somebetter provision for governing them, the Government had absolutely done nothing; andtheseat of Government was removed at, a most inconvenientHame, when the whole country was in rebellion. He did not want them to remove it back again, but he would ask tjhem to make some provision for governing the Natives in the North. There they were placed in of danger and difficulty, which he thought wholly unnecessary, as he had considered he had j&pwn. } Now, with regard to European affairs he would merely touch upon them. He asked them i to look around them and see how European affairs were managed; and consider whether they could or could not be better governed , by a change. Were the Southern provinces all content ?, No, they were not. The only province that was really content was that in which they were then. Here they had the seat of Government, the Panama route, the Manawatu .Mock, and they thought they could get the three-eighths of the Customs, 'fbooglateih); Under these circumstances, this -happy family at Port Nicholson, being so well satisfied, ought" to do something for the north and south ends of New Zealand, and he would appeal to them to do so. At the present moment they were devoting some seven months of- each year to legislation between the Provincial and General Legislature, and he would ask whether, the' people of New Zealand were going to spend half their existence in legislating ? (feragfetes.) The proposition he made would remedy this. Then again he felt sure that many of the Southern members w^ere disgusted with this constant reference to native affairs. (HearHbeaiv) But if they would agree with him in his resolutions, they need nob have so much of them, and could attend - to their gold and their sheep. These native affairs '
wciu specially interesting to people of thu IS"t-i til, and they ought to deal with them ; but so long as the South had to pay, so long had thuy a light to judge m the matter. Thcs.o mallcra nil resolved themselves into questions of finance, and he would recommend his mends from the South, to look after their monetary affairs, and if they considered their interests hi this respect they would vote for his resolutions. There was a return asked for the other day of the expense of the sittings of the General Assembly, hut that return did not show one-half tho cost, for it did not show what it cost the provinces for their officials to couio to the Parliament, so that, whether they looked at it as the. , management of affahs or of finance, the proposition ( he put ought to be favourably considered. lie did not sneak for the South, he left his hon. friends from there to .speak for themselves ; but he would support any of them who wanted a local Constitution as well as Auckland. Tt was because he wanted to' see prosperity in both ends of the island thai; jlie putthes eresolutions on the table. He had already ex* plained why he had'eonfined tKemto Auckland alone, and lie hoped the debate would be confined-to that. He would now proceed to consider the remedies for tho evils which he trusted he had shown to exist. Ono remedy was entire Separation with no federal junction, another was a Provincial Government with extended powers, and'another was thai he was now proposing. They did not want any ultra-pro-vincialism j and the other might be very well granted to the]m without cutting them off fioni thereat of ;fche colony. What the JN oith wanted was the management of Dative affairs, and he for one would be Very sorry to see the management th»own into the hands of a Provincial Couucil and Superintendent., <£H*a.r, hetrr) ' They wanted the conservative principle of having a s,ec6nd andaLieutenant-Governor. Still, ■ however, maintaining a link between the iwo parts of the colony, and keeping in view .the] discontent that was manifested in the North, he wquld simply ask — Is ' there nothing you can do for us to us the management of our affairs, and especially \fttivo affairs, without cutting us altogether apart; from the rest of the colony ? The people of the NoAb, asked that the power might be given them to administer their own affairs. He would ask them, •• Oau yon not in any shape or other hand us over tne^nianagemeut of pative affairs, or give us something which will keep us from the dangers and. difficulties that encounter us on every side?" He hoped he had satisfied the House that the people of A.uckland;'had sufficient good ground for complaining, and he did trust that the House would allow themselves to go into .committee to consider the best means by wpb.ich the existing evil could be remedied. It was a matter which should not be delayed ; delay was dangerous, and therefore he did implore and ask the House to look atthe case as it stood, and see whether or not something might be done in the direction he had, indicated. Now, these resolutions, as they awfa, must be looked at fcom three poiuts of view — s^Kninistration, legislation, and finance. And after all, if they came to look at the question of administration, it did involve entirely the qiiestion of finance,, and did also -involve, in a great measure the Bubjeet of legislation. With regard to the question of administration, he had already pointed out the necessity for a change. As to the question of finance, if theydid, allow the people of the North the administration of > »fljtive affairs, he did not think ib would be right to dip too heavily their hands into the pockets of their friends in the South. All they^asked was thatcthey should combine, and then a compromise would be made. The defence of Nevr Zealand was an expense born by the colony. It was a varying expense, and there was no probability at present of its being very small ; .and' therefore what " they asked was that, in dealing with the question, they should pay a limited portion of the expemes : they proposed to take a given sum, such a sum as might be considered sufficient to indemnify them against all unforeseen risks. Tte partnership at present was one of unlimited liability, and they must pay to the last shilling and to the last acre. That question was discussed the other day, and they could not continue the partnership any longer, because, as long as there was anything in New Zealand to pay, the public creditor of New Zealand must be paid. No matter what its revenues. were, -~- and. they could not shut their eyea to the fact, — the public creditor must get his money, no matter how it comes or where it comes from. fGiieers?), And, therefore, if they continued their liability, they must remember that their last shilling and their last, acre was liable to be taken. The people of the North -thought that by the present management of ijative affairs a 'sum ■ of money was spent which it was not necessary ta expend. They that if they had the management of native affairs they cmld manage them at a much less cost, and with greater satisfact on te ~ ""e'vefyDodyr^atives as well as Eiuopeans. He could *SoTi conceive any greater disadvantage to the colony than this unlimited liability system. It appeared to him that it prevented them from entering into auy great undertaking, because they did not know what heaVy liabilities they might be led into, and if so, they must bear it to the last shilling. They could not,' in justice or fairness, evade it. Had they any claim to be exonerated ? They had not. Theiefore, lie said that, at the present time, it was extremely imprudent for the South, or any part of New Zealand; to enter into any large undertakings. Be had showed that it was so as regarded that portion of the island from which he came, and they did nqt at present know, nor could they know at any hour, what liability they might not be subject to. They might make engagements for laige local public workSj without knowing whether they had tbe money to pay for them, because it must be remembered that the claims of the General Government must come iv before all others. It was possible, however, that these things could be avoided. If they chose to assume the management of their own affairs and entire ' control over them, ' they must then bear all the expense, do what; they would. It was all very well to say, "Oh, we have nothing to do with thu or the other thing," but so long as the Government of the colony re•mained as it was, &o long, then, must the gentlemen of the South be subjected to this unlimited liability, which appeared to him to be, pressing so strongly against them. The question then arose, how could they benefit by having a limited liability — a liability fixed ? By that, they should gain by being enabled to manage their own affairs at less cost and risk j and, therefore, they gained in a financial point of view, and, in fact, in every point of view. Consequently, he saw no reason why the niauagement of native affairs should be at so distaut a part of the colony. For his parb, if he were to 'commence his career again, and choose a location on the morrow, he certainly would not come to Wellington to manage the affans of the Natives., And he would wish to know what claim there was for hon. members of the fr-outh to legislate foe the natives, or why it was they should object to get rid of the trouble and anxiety of having to do ,so. He would be very unwilling, indeed, to trespass upon the Bouse any longer than was necessary, but he hoped theywonld still bear with him a ( little longer. He dared say it waa very tiresome. (Cue* o| " tfoyug,." »nd "Go. du>^' and^hear, rhe>r.)i No doubt >the opinion of different men must bo a "matter of very considerable importance, and he would select one or two instances of the opinions of men who ( were admittedly well conversant with colonial matters. He would not frighten hon. members by showing them that he was going into the many instances he could point out, but he would select one or two from the number. In 1845, a gentleman to whom, he was sure, New Zealand bore a great respect, Sir pharles Buller, pointed out the necessity of a division of tho colony and of a separate Government being established for the of Auckland. He would not read that gentleman's paper on the subject, but would simply refer hon. memWs to it. They would fioM stated in the Parliamentary Blue Book the opiuiouifhat gentleman expressed on the occasion. In 1846, x 'Earl Grey introduced a similar* proposition to that which he (Mr. Whitaker) was now adverting. The proposition absolutely passed into law "as regarded. New Zealand, bxit was suspended for five years, and, then their own Constitution superseded it. New Zealand was divided into two colonies at the time of the passing of the Act, and there was a Government at 'Auckland and another at Wellington ; and during the twenty-five years he had lived in the colony, he never knew a people to be more satisfied than when the two Governments existed. (Cheers. )' There was then no question about the seat of Government. T,hey possessed local administration, and local administration satisfied everybody. (Uheers.) Looking do^n a little later, namely, to their own Conßtitu•>tion Act, they would find that the identical cfiange which was now proposed was indicated byT Sir George Grey in his celebrated despatches, " which were the foundation of the New Zealand Constitution. (Hear, hear.) [The hon. gentleman • read several extracts from the despatches alluded to.] The question then arose whether the smaller Council would swallow up the bigger one, or the bigger one .would swallow up the smaller, and whether the one rshould •ncroach upon the other j and the general feeling was that the central one would rule the' others. In 1858, the New Zealand '"Provinces Act vras passed, for the purpose of bringing Provincial Governments down to their proper limits as large anunicipalities (which was their legitimate'positictf); and plftoiug .the General Government in the Mcen«-j
(Lint. He himself w.vi a p~rry to that Act ; but during tho la-fc f/'iree }c\m that policy had been Ire\orse?. I unload of fnu.g on with the j'olicy of 3SSS, tno Te f-hiduie for the last three year? hail <itte<i in uinct opposition ti> it. '1 hey now had not tliafc p -Hey to go ou with, ami •it was time io s(|o if they could geb it revived ; but the House -would nob allow them to revive the policy of 1858, and hart declared against the continuation of fcbnfc policy. What remained*) then, to be done wis, to find some substitute for it. The t'hwg vias iiow to take it- in hand and see whether they could not intiod'ice into these Provincial Councils somo conservative feature, which would raise them to the position of Provincial As■&einblies. JfJo should be extremely sorry to Bee additional powers iv native affairs given to the Superintendent of the province of Auckland, but he should liko to see those powers -afforded to a Lieutesant - Governor, and then they might take the management of Sative affairs That was hiBh i8 idea. With regard to 'the sittings of the Assembly, ib would x be reasonable for them to .sit, say, oace in two or three years ; but'now they were sitting;from year to year, spending, at least, ( one-third of 'their time in legislating for New Zealand. j The time had come when there should be some change or other in this reapeefc. He would not weary hon. members hy quoting long extracts from the opinions expressed by Sir George Grey on the matter of Government. i They came next to Governor Browne. And whafcs,'he would ask, were his views, especially with regard to the^M'ovince of A uckland ? When -'they were about to hold the General Assembly at Welliugton, he declared <thafc, in his opinion, ifc was injudicious and dangerous to do so, unless the appointment of a competent person to deal trith/jfative affairs in Auckland was previously made. Here, therefore, "they had two consecutive Governors giving the same opinion. 2he despatches of Sir George Grey had been laid on the table of the House the other day ; and in these despatches they would find that' Sir George Sprey advocated, in very strong terms, that they -should have a strong and instant-acting i Government in the i»rovince of Auckland ; and Mr. Card well's ,despatcß, as would be observed, strongly advised a similar course, and directed^Kis Excellency ■to consult on the subject with his r*espon9ible"fldvisers. It, was their duty, therefore, to have brought the matter before the House for consideration. But* as they had not done so, what they had now to consider was, whether they should *11 agree to allow * transfer of iative affairs into the hands of the Imperial Government, or give the ■-province of Auckland the power of dealing with affairs. It would be perfectly competent for the province of Auckland to consider the question as to what kind of respon-sible-government they would like to have as compared to that form they now had. He simply mentioned this subject for ithe purpose -of showing that thQge resolutions did not decide-that matter one way or the other,, but ■ would' leave the question to be settled by the province' of Auckland when it got its own form' of government. If the province of Auck--land is to get "a Provincial Assembly, let them Bay wketherit should have responsible or ,not. He had no doubt the question would be fully considered -j and if the people of Auckland got what they.,wauted and sought for, without injuring anybody else, why should they quarrel ? He would not weary the House by reading speeches and despatches which he had in his possession, but would refer hon. .members to speeches of Mr. Gladstone, Lord Lyttelton, the Duke of Newcastle, Mr. Adderley, and others, all of whom had before now pointed out the inconvenience the colony had suffered from concurrent legislation. "When they went into committee, he would be able to point out his views upon that sub-» ject. For the present, he would not further refer to ifc. What the province of Auckland really did want was the administration of. its own affairs, especially in native matters. If the House was of the slightest impression that these native difficulties were passed away, he assured them 'they were labouring •under a delusion. (Hear, bear-.) 'They had not passed away. They will rise up at any day or hour, and he was quite certain, ,they would increase in a very great proportion, if they had not something to deal with them as the difficulties arose. Sir - William Martin told them that the natives were exasperated — not subdued— and that the natives at* a certain portion of the colony were iv a 'hostile attitude. Now, all this required a good deal of looking after. Look, for instance, at the affairs at Kawhia, which was simply that of a truce, where Europeans were at cue side of a line and the natives at another ; and if the former crossed that * line they would b« shot. He had no doubt that the visit of }fig Excellency was X>roductive of good, bufc a mere flying visit of a month'did not produce.. that effect which would be produced if there was some authority constantly and peimauently on the spot. Look, again, to the East and the West Coasts of the Northern Island. What did they observe there ?~ Could they say that the- Oriweras were, .subdued ? Were they at peace 1 Dare they (the Europeans) set their foot on their country ? They dare not do so,- yet the Uriweras were ready to take the smallest opportunity of encroaching on territory that belonged to the settlers. The Uriweras were nota^t peace. On the contrary, they had been within|lsaniles of the ..town of Auckland, carrying on w«r4here. And some of them were carrying on war at the Wairoa. Now, he did think that the Home Government had most signally failed in the management of Native affairs. He would pass no imputation on past Governments, but he would say that ifc was impossible to manage £ative affaira in Welliugton. There- was no man whom he could better trust, to his own personal knowledge, as an administrator in New Zealand than the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government, but his Government would fail likewise if they attempted to deal with Native affairs at Wellington. They could apt do it. ' He (Mr. Wm'taker) had, a good deal more to say, but would not say it. (otyc\s\yQo oWi)'j^ But he would show that some change was essentially necessary, and would implore, beg, and entreat the House to say what that change consisted of. He had pointed out to them that dangers — not •nly financial embarrassments, but that lives and .property were at stake. He had pointed out the grievance and the remedy ; and if the House allowed him to go into Committee, he would more fully explain the remedy. If, on the other hand, he were not permitted to go into committee, or if his propositions should be rejected^ie would then show the Government that it was theirduty to briug forward such" a remedy as would answer the purpose; and, if this were done, he could assure ' them it would receive his very best support. He was pleased afc the favourable manner in which the House had received them, and thanked "them for the very patient hearing they liad given to him throughout his address. The hon. gentleman then moved the House into- c&mmittee ou the following resolutions, and resumed his seat amidst loud cheers : — ' "1. That, in the opinion of this House, temporary provision should be made for the better government; of 'thep.rovince.of Auckland. . , <# j2. That with a view to that object the office of , , Superintendent of the province should be abolished, andiffie -whole administration' 6f v the Government conducted fey a Lieutenant-Governor, with the advice of an Executive Council. "3. That the Provincial Council should be abolished, ■a^di a Provincial Assembly established. "4 That such Pro vincialAßsemljly should have exclusive eppwer of, legislation on all subjects except such as shall be reserved for the General ' Assembly. "5. Tn^. no l»,w' to be passed by the Provincial Assembly fbr^any of the purposes hereinafter mentioned should have any force unless assented to by the Governor-in-Chief, that is to say : — * "(1.) The imposition, abolition, alteration, or regu- ' J*tion of duties of Customs. " (2.)' The establishment or abolition of a Supreme Courfc, or the alteration of the constitution, jurisdiction, or practice of such Court. " (3.) The regulating of the current coin," or the issue of any paper currency. " (4 ) Uhe*regulating of the carriage of letters between any of the provinces of the (Colony and between the colony and foreign places. "(5.) The regulation of weights and measures. ; " (6.) The erection and maintenance of beacons and lighthouses on the coasts. "(7.) The regulation of marriages. - " 6. That on all such subjects the General Assembly of the colony, and the Provincial Assembly, should, have concurrent powers of legislation : provided that all laws made by the General Assembly control and supersede any law made by the Provincial Assembly on any such subject. "7. That all pecuniary debts and liabilities of the colony should remain as at present a. charge on the colony, and proper arrangement made for securing the due payment; of the share chargeable to the province of Auckland. . "8. That after a day to be fixed the .wholes revenue arising within the province should be made revenue. '.l. l "9. That after such a day the whole cost of the civil and military government ef the province - should be borne, by the province, and an equitable contribution provided for towards the expense of the General Assembly. . . <l 'lo. That, in consideration of the continuation of | the existing nrraigements "whereby the land fund is j
made provincial revonue, and. in consideration or the province of Aiickland relieving tlio colony of the expense of the administration of rfative affiiis, and the cost of military defence within the province, an annual allowance— to be fixed upon the basis of tho estimated amount of such I expense— should be made l>y the colony to the province. "11. That effect bo given at once to these resolu. tions, so far as it is competent for the General Assembly to do ao ; and that the Imperial Government be applied to to give full effect thereto with the least possible delay." M r. ItOBEKP Gbaham seconded the motion. The Hen. -Mr. Stafford : Sir, I riss to stake that the (government will accede to the proposition that this House do go into ijominittee. They desire to , see this question most fully and fairly disussed, and, if possible, conclusively settled, (rfear, hear.) In desiring that the question should be most freely diacussed, we should at once be understood as being prepared to give to it the most decided opposition. < (•fieary-- hear,- and cheers.) [ have been informed that it has been rumoured that upon this question Government wa3 not united. I know of no foundation for such a rumour. (Cheers.) I have also heard that it has been said the Government has got neither opinions nor policy, of its ov?n,, but is waiting to receive opinions from a majority of the Legislature — • that, in short, we are like a ship in a ■ calm, with our yards spread, ready to take advantage of any wind that may spring up. .If 1 , any member , ha* entertained that opinion a moment,, I beg of him ta dismiss it for once' and " for ever from his mind, and he will then., be able! - .to take a larger, and more clear *nd comprehensive . view of affairs than he possibly could dq if he allows such. an idea to get possession of him. While I trust the Government will pay that attention and " deference which, is due to the members of the Legist*- ■ ture, we shall, on large questions, consent to receive our opinions from no one. On such a question *s that now before the House ; on the question of the -defence of the colony, and the maintenance of v law and order j on such a question as that of the amount of revenue required to enable this country to meet its engagements in honour, and to develop the resources of the colony, we shall be found to possess decided and abidiug opinions By which we are perfectly content to stand or fall. (Cheers.) The very able speech of the hon. and learned member has not disappointed me. On the contrary, it has removed a very large feeling of disappoint- ~ ment which has attended me ever from , the ] first moment I saw his resolutions on the order paper. I shall not attempt to follow the hon. gentleman's remarks in detail now. I shall reserve doing so until this House is in committee. Idp not know, sir, whether it is competent for me to'move that this House do now adjourn till' seven o'clock—, it is competent, I know, for me to move that — but I do not know, whether it is competent for me t<^ move that the Bouse do go into Committee at seven o'clock. I should like to move a. motion of that kind, unless any Agentleman should like now to -speak on the question. If such a desire is expressed, I presume it would be more convenient, rather than that we should commence the discussion now at a few minutes prior to the regular . time of adjournment, that we should at once adjourn for the purpose of discussing the question in committee at seven o'clock. (Heaiv_hear.) » ■ Mr. Moqbhouse said that a good deal of time . would be saved if the House ...would proceed to deal with the whole question of Separation^ The resolutions of the hon. member for Farnell referred only to a Separation of a particular part of the colony — Auckland — and surely they should discuss the Separation of one island from the other. If these resolutions were considered in committee, a great deal of time would be wasted, for they would then have hon, members from other parts of the colony as well as Auckland coming forward and proposing Separation. •- of the two^isiands. He thought that the whole * question could be disposed of in the House without. ■ going into .committee ; and he would therefore move***, the adjournmenJLof the debate on Mr. Whitaker'a re- '" solutions until 7 o'clock. ■ , ..ajitfcle' conversation, the House went into ■committee, and the, Chairman immediately reported progress, with leave to sit again at 7- o'clock. The House adjourned till 7 o'clock accordingly. On the committee resuming, Mr. Whitakeb moved the first resolution, " That in the opinion of this House temporary provision should be made for the better government of >the ' province of Auckland. " The Hon. Mr. StajffobD, on rising to address the committee, said that he took this opportunity of congratulating the members on the character and tone — (hear, hear) — of the speech' which had been delivered by the hon. member for ■ Parnell (Mr. - k Whita.ker). " It expected from him ; there was throughout the whole" of his speech, while it was distiuguished by that ' marked earnestness which .would be expected on such an important occasion, an entire absence of asperity or personal allusion, which he trusted hon. members would follow through the very important debute he had introduced to the Legislature ; most certainly, if any asperity should arise in the heat of debate, it could not be attributed to the hon. mem- ■ ber for Paruell, on account of %he very courteous and ' forbearing tone with whicji he introduced the subject for consideration. At the same time,' he thought he bad * cause of complaint agaiuet the boa. member, although he (Mr. Whi taker) had incurred it unwittingly, for having" sought to distinguish him as an' administrator in public affairs to an extent he could not claim, for he would venture to speak of the public men of New Zealand with a knowledge equal to that of the member for Parnell ; and lie recognised in this House many gentlemen able to con- \ duct the affairs of Auckland with an great impartiality, assiduity, and success as he could venture to claim for himself. The hon. member (Mr. Whitaker) stated that he would confine himself to the principle [ involved in the whole question; he should, although it would be impossible in committee to adhere as closely to that rule as in the full House, also eudeavour to treat this question and the resolutions, although they were many in number, as one inseparable whole. He had briefly expressed, t on the motion for going into commitj;e.e,- - r the disappointment; with which he had at,. SrSfc perused the resolutions, • but it h*fl bejyfc 'inra,, great measure removed by the remark's tffirSeTn'T&e 1 ' moving of them ; as Mr. Whitaker had, JjAuißelf ~ hinted at, he had objected out of doors that it was not worthy of one holding the high position that Mr. Whifcaker did, and deservedly go— of one who. had been so long before the public in the highest; capaoities — to have come down, and submitted such an abstract proposition as that some chauge w,as wanted ; . , and he was glad thatrSir. Whitaker had been! in-" f dueed to say so much. JJe (Mr. Stafford), as well as others, objected to his coming down with a bald and inconclusive proposition— to say , distinctly that a change was required, but to- fail to indicate in what direction it should be 4nade, and in what position this Legislature would be'if ' snch a proposition was agreed to— was, he fearlessly'asserted,, not what the House bad a right to expect from a gentleman, of such high standiug ;. he himself (Mr. Whisaker>felfc there was some foundation for that, or he would nit have allowed himself, pertinacious as he was, to oe jturned away from Bis course us at first proposed, 'He had followed the 'hon. member, as well as" it jvoa .possible to follow one so distinguished for/the rapidity withwhich he expressed- his thought/and had taken a few notes, and should proceed, -wltl the ; ' aid of them, to rep*ly .to his remarks.- The 'hon. * member had taken advantage, 'of. this being i new Parliament to speak in detail of=«fcsrfcfcin portions of his subject ; indeed, if he bad not been a new mem' ber himself, he would not have dwelt on them so long as he did, nor used a tone so extremely cautionary as to talk of the danger and ruin which mighj result if the change was not carried into effect. T|e hon. member, in advocating the necessity for a Change, ' abandoned altogether the principle contained 'in - bis , resolutions, for he more than once npeated that he was ready to listen to any proposal for a change, if only they could agree to [soi*sthing, as he termed it ; and the hon. member ipfc only himself as anxious to irf having _■ • that •" something" procured for the^proVinct Whose ' interests he stated he was peculiarly advoc*p,ng, bufi offered, in the most generous and liberal mapner-, W e 1 become constitution-monger to any other portion of the colony. That was not a -position which* W believed,, the hon. member would, on reflection,' think worthy of him. He (Mr. Stafford) did not rererence any mere paper constitution. He .was iware that there were many forms of Government -wMcn would produce [discontent, although thi^'nn itself 'might ' not be bad, and that there wer/Tniany ' forms '- of bad Government under the administration of which there might be contentment ; but he dfd think should bejremembered that, whatever might be the defects of the present Constitution, to it they owed the liberties this country now enjoyed ; that ' Jboth in. the General Assembly and the Provincial , Qouncils it was the charter and defence of the •country's liberties ; and that' without it the Legislature?, .both of the colony and, the provinces, would have ..been mere debating societies*./ "He did .not, therefore, think it right that V 'gentleman of such high standing as the mover of this resolution should ask that this Constitution, under which as 'large a ' measure of liberty had been enjoyed as in any colony, should be lightly torn to pieces, until a cos-
stitution, giving equal freedom of action and discussion, could be given in its place. What ha-1 the hon. member pUced before them ! He (Mr. Staffoul) confined himself to the resolutions, and refused to be led into the consideration of those other 'prupn sitions which the hon. member said he beliove i would be marie by members living too far South to be contented with the present state of affairs. What did the hon. gentleman propose in those resolutions ? — and he would confine himself eutirely to the resolutions. He found that while the people of Auckland wanted the whole authority over their own affairs, they also wanted to come into that Home und t ike part in the legislafou of the colony ; he found that while they wanted the whole of the revenue of their own province, they also wanted to obtain a portion of the revenues of the rest nf the colony— to dip their handrinto the pockets of the South. It was a proposal one of the most audacious he had ever heard. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member had made much about the absence of documents from Auck-' land which were required in the Land Court ;to which he might say that had that gentleman coached his first letter in the same ' terms that he had done the last, those doenmeuts would have been sent up at once, though h» had failed entirely even now to show that they were required. The hon. gentleman's objections to the Land' Court were twofold ; first, that due notice of its sittings was not given. To this he might reply that the presiding Judge of the Courts was written to to give due notice of these sittings ; and further, that an order in Council was passed that such notice should be given. He would challenge the hon. gentleman to say that an adjournment had not been granted whenever it was asked for. The next point that the hon. gentleman sought to make — and he gave him credit for ingenuity in the attempt, ' though he was on the horns of a dilemma, when he said that the originals of these documents were required in Court. If the hon. gentleman would refer to the statute book he would see that certified copies were admitted in every Court. If this was a defect iv the law it was remediable by the Legislature in Wellington, or by one in Auckland, even were it established there, and therefore this point was lost, as it could in no way affect the geographical position of the province of Auckland. The hon. gentleman had said that it was the duty of the Government to bring down some such measure as that now before them ; btft he might say that the Government could not d* so, because it could not frame a measure within the four corners of Mr. CardwelTs despatch that would satisfy the people of Auckland and be just to the rest of the colony. He might go as far as to say that he had even sat down to attempt to do it, but could not. The hon. gentleman proposed a change acceptable to the people of Auckland, without any consideration for the rest of the colony, and he might say that that was a thing which the Government of the colony could neither do themselves nor accspt from another. (Hear, hear.) However much he might recognise the fact that time might necessitate certain changes, he for ome would always be opposed to violent changes whether he was «jp or out of office. (Hear, hear.). Then, the nbihyffentleman had said that it was the duty of the Govenialent to remedy grievances. Be would refer the House'to-the^case of Ireland, and ask was it likely that the Government' o"f England would bring down a measure to remedy the grievances there, by giving that country a Government of its own, having also a share in the Government of England? No, the measure they brought down was the xuspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. (Laughter.) He could assure the people of Auckland, however, that he was not going to bring down such • measure. (Laughter.) The hon. gentleman had compared Auckland with other places under the British Crown, and uhown that it was larger than some of those whicH were distinct colonies ; but they were islands or countries by their geographical position totally distinct to themselves, and Auckland was not this. It was a portion of an empire — that was what it was — and what they had to do, if any change was necessary, which might be the v case, was to bring thimgs back to their normal condition, not to separate the..prpvince from the reßt of the colony. Notwithstanding what the hon.geutle-_ man had said to frighten young members about the state of the natives, he might say that their power to do evil was daily decreasing in the doily decrease of their numbers, (Hear, hear,) If the hon. gentleman thought that a warning was necessary to the gentlemen of the Middle Island, why did. not he ■fare them that warning when he was Prime Minister Ixthe colony ? (Hear, hear.) Why did he not then say to them, "Go in peace, do not venture your money or endanger your safety, but leavftus tariatk* care of ourselves ?' The-hon.- goatlemay t »fcid that* he had always been -a separationist : wljyatd heysot> at some time throughout those many year* when he was in office, say to the Middle Island gentlemen, " I warn you not to venture? I (Bear, hear.) No, he waited and he. came down now that he had got their money,' and said, "I warn you of the South, and especially ye canny men of Dunedin, not to venture for the North." "(Loud cheering.) The hoa. gentleman then alluded to the Northtrn Association, and in doing so said, "Gireme something and I will give any of you gentleman from other provinces, who are discontent, evtry assistance to draft a new Constitution." He wanted Separation of some sort, and in bis desire for it did not mind even if he could get the power of ruling over three other provinces. What did insular separation mean-? Simply the domination of one province over three others more distinct in their requirements from that one than they were from the provinces of tbe South Island? (Hear, hear.) In fact, it was a piece of parliamentary ' tactics throughout, on the part of the hon. member to leave this indefinite notion of what Separation he wanted ; and he must say that such & course was hardly a worthy one for a gentlemen who stood forward as a champion of the cause. Then he said, in language not very complimentary, that he would not trust the Provincial Council and Superintendent 6f Auckland with the management of native affairs ; but he (Mr. Stafford) would ask if they had a Provincial Assembly, where he would get its members, if not from among the very men who formed that Council, and what right had he to throw dirt at those men as Provincial Councillors, whom he would take his hat off to as members of the* Provincial Assembly ? (Hear, hear.) Why had the hon. gentleman when himself a Minister of the Crown, not proposed the abolition of elective Superintendents and the substitution of Lieutenant-Governors ? Now, he wouldrsay a word upon Lieutenant-Governors. Such an official would have no power except just what was conferred upon him by Act of Parliament. He was » myth, and unless the hon. gentleman defined the office more exactly, such an official must be looked upon as a useless animal. Did the hon. member wish to be a Deputy-Governor of the province of Auckland ? Why, if he had only said so, the Government would have made him one long ago. (Laughter, and hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman had always complained afterwards of what had not been done, but never showed what ought to be don«. This was the case at Opdtiki, and there he might say that through the course taken by the hon: gentleman himself a great many of the difficulties had been caused. Now the hon. gentleman had complained of the Compensation and Lands Courts. These were matters which the Executive could take no action in. The Legislature had deliberately authorised these Courts, and the representatives of Auckland themselves had given their consent to the Act under vhich they were constituted — indeed it was greatly in consequence of their desire that it was passed, so that it little became the hon. member now to come forward and complain of it. He would acknowledge that these courts had perhaps a little outridden the horse, but that was a question of law, and not of geographical position, and he would even say that the hon. gentleman himself had been asked to suggest some remedy, but he had not yet done so, and until he had proved that the present laws could not be judiciously amended he had no right to ask that they should go back to the old system The hon. .member had then alluded to those sad erents on the East Coast which would never be forgotten, and said that they were caused through tne absence of a Government on tbe spot ; but he would ask whether, when he bimielf (Mr. Stafford) was in the Government of Auckland, events equally melancholy and embarrassing to the Government had not occurred T Take for example, Taranaki, which wai within eight or ten hours of Auckland, and let him say if proximity to the Government had prevented disaster. (Hear, hear.) If there was this necessity for government on the spot, what would the hon. gentleman say about Poverty Bay ? Would he say that Auckland could administer native affairs better there than at Hawke's Bay ? (Laughter, .and hear, hear.)' He nailed the hon. gentleman to that, and claimed from him that he should at once sign that petition which had been presented from the settlers of that district. (Laughter.) The hon. ' ' gentleman had alluded to the discontent in the South, and appeared to say that the only dissatisfaction was against the General Government, and not at all against the Provincial Government. (Hear, hear.) He might tell his hon. and. learned friend that there was a great deal more discontent against, the latter than the former, and that the same was the case in Auckland, where he had ' lived* for many years himself, and saw the greatest * bitterness existing' between the different portions of
the province. There were causes of dissatisfaction against both General and Provincial Governments in all parbs of the colony, but that was no reason for Separa ion. In fact the hon. gentleman's organ of detbrnctivoness wis predomiannt just now ; he wanted Superintendents destroyed, General Government destroyed, and Provincial Governments destroyed. He did not think that the hon gentlemen had made much out of his native affairs. It was impossible for Governments iv their own provinces to have the sole control over the natives there, as they might see in the late war when natives from all parts were engaged Why the very fact of a defeat of rebels in Auckland would at once cause them to go to Tarauaki or Hawke's Bay, and what would the hon. gentlemen do then ? His proposal was really summarized thus, that the General Assembly should subsidize Auckland to drive the rebels from there into Taranaki and Hawke's Bay— the adjoining provinces. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman said that his proposition was just the same as that of Lord Grey, but he could easily show that it was totally different. (Hear, hear.) By Lord Grey's 'proposition the Lieutenant-Governor had to wait for his instructions from the Governor with the advice of his Executive ; and he supposed the hon.^ gentleman did not want that. That gentleman did] not define the powers of the proposed Provincial Government, but said that in certain cases the powers should be concurrent with those of tho General Government, as for instance in marriage laws, so that a man might be married under the law of Auckland, and unmarried under the law .of the rest of the colony ; and in the currency, 'so that bank notes of Auckland might.be no use elsewhere. (Hear, hear.) Lord Grey's proposition was something very different from this, and was intended for a place .made distinct by geographical position. There were the .laws of heirahip also, where the boundaries between Auckland and one of the neighbouring provinces were most undefined, and where a man might have them running right through his property, would have to will away one portion under one law and another under another. He would put it to the hon. gentleman as a member of the legal profession, if he seriously meant that that should be, or that the Provincial Government should have concurrent power with the General Government in judicial matters. The hon. member never could have believed that these propositions would find" favour with the Legislature, but he was quitej right in asking the Legislature to consider any, gnevances that might be supposed to exist. The hon. gentleman had alluded to the case of the Arawas, and he (Mr. Stafford) was glad to have an opportunity of making an explanation on this subject. The Arawas were never called out by the Government, but turned out voluntarily, through some {old tribal 'disputes ; {and when they were .getting beaten, they applied to the Government for assistance, which was given them in arms, food, and clothing. In addition to this, they were offered £3,000 to compensate them for the loss of their cultivations, £1,500 to be paid at once, and £1,500 when they took Kereopa ; and they also got a large strip of land. If, then, the Arawas complained, they did so without a cause, and he was glad to see that His hon. friend for Newton (Mr. G. Graham) quite- agreed- witibi— him, .and ,was even ready to pay them for their services in quite another way. (Laughter.) The hon. gentleman said that the Arawas were* constantly in -Auckland, and could have had their grievances readily redressed if there was a Government there, but he could assure them that they could not |p6ssibly have got more than they had done now. The hon. member for Napier (Mr. M clean) often settled native disputes without referring to the General Government, and he would as>k why the hon. member for Paruell did notdo the same, and he might be ceitain of being borne out -iv his action by the Genet al Government. Then the hou. member had referred to the proposed Defence Force, and very properly ao. The Government thought that a force was required . for some time to come, ab all events, and believed that it would have to be used chiefly between ■this and Taranaki. When the time came, the, exact details would be laid before the House, but 'he might state that he believed the proposed '.foree' would be found amply sufficient, even for an outbreak in the province of Auckland. . He had not referred to all the points of the hon. gentleman' • speech, but there would be another opportunity of doing so, if necessary ; and he would now content himself with laying that the Legislature of New Zealand could in .no way assent to these resolutions, however much it might wish to improve the Government of Auckland, and therefore the Government could in no way . «aferi-*Hvthe proposition*.- (LouaVcheerinc;.) < jgjftßr. Dick said ifiaty he would not have risen at tjni^early period of the debate to introduce .any matter into it ; but as he wished to propose some amendments to the resolutions of the hon. member for Parnell, he thought it right to give them to the committee at once, in order that they might judge of their comparative merit, as contrasted with the resolutions of the'hon. member for Parnell. He did not kuow whether he would be in order in proposing a series of amendments. He believed the hon. member for Parnell had simply proposed the first of his resolutions j but he (Mr. Dick) would wish to give notice that he would bring on his amendments as the House passed from one resolution to another, unless, indeed, the House should negative at the very outset the resolutions of the hon. member for Parnell, and also the proposition moved by himself. He did net think it was necessary for him to enter largely into the subject, because he was inclined to thiuk that hon. members, to a very great extent, had made up their minds already. (Heaiy-htar.) He had heard there was a very decided opinion entertained by hon. members on thia subject. (Hear, hear.) The native part of the question was one of which he did not pretend to kuow much about. It seemed, however, to be the point which would be most fully discussed. During the time that he had the honour of occupying a seat in, the House, he found that seren-eighths of the time of the sitting of -the Assembly iv past sessions was taken up in considering the "native question, while matters referring to the European population occupied one-eighth only of their time, a proportion which he considered was most unfair. With this view, he thought that it was right that they should, as much as possible, liberate the other provinces from being called upon to attend to these matteri. Let those province! which had natives to look after, look after them. Let the power of doing so be given to them ; and let those provinces .who had not any natives to look after, look after their own affairs. (Hear,- hear.) Do not let them come to Wellington and spend months, session after •session, and come back session after session, and still find that more time U spent in talking these 'native affairs over and over again than would have been spent in subsidising the papers in Wellington to give a full report. (Laughter.) He must confess that he was npt astonished at the position taken by the, Hon. the Premier this session. He (Mr. Dick) ' was' not' in the House last »es«ion, but he was of opinion that it was owing to the power of provincialism that the late Ministry was turned out v(Keajr> u iiear|, and he was confirmed in that idea by seeing that the hon. gentleman at the head of the present Government had called to his council the hon. member for Frankl£n and the^member for Dunedin — \hVHbjfcj the Postmaster-General. And if so, he might say that on the part of the PostmasterGeneral a great change had come over ' ' the spirit of his dream." When that hon. gentleman was in Dunedin, his viewi were somewhat different from those of the other members of Government ; and, perhaps, they should fiud presently that he would express views a -little different at all events from the hon. member at the head of the Government. The question before the House was of importance, not only as connected with Auckland, because he held that what was good for Auckland was good for the other provinces.^" No, no.") | - *Hon. members might say "No, no," bub what he meant was, that if Auckland was to obtain anything, the other provinces ought to have the same proportion. '(**-\NFo7-no. a ) He did not approve of the idea of letting Auckland away from that Assembly, and leaving Otago to .the tender mercies of those that remained. (-Hesrj hear,* and laughter.) He found that members from Auckland viewed matters generally in a very judicious and honest light, and for his part he should be very sorry to see them part company so soon as was proposed. He did think, however, that they were justified in asking — not for Auckland alone— but for the colony at large, ■ that -there should be a certain amount of additional power given to the province*. He could not accept the proposition that Auckland alone should get these additional powers. Let them be given to all the other provinces as well. Perhaps he would be told that he had no right to suggest the other provinces ; but they were there to legislate on all part 3 of the colony, and not on- a particular part of it ; and, therefore, it was right they should propose that the whole of the provinces should be_ included in the propositions, or at least in a modified few of "those proposition!. It was found that in Otago there was much need that additional powers should be given to the Government of that province.' The hon. member for Oamaru objected to a proposition of this kind, who aiserted that that was not the feeling of some portions of Otago. He (Mr. Dick) admitted it was not, but 'that portion tomehow tor » another does not know iti own interests. -fHt^f,
Lear, and laughter.) 11i.it portion, more>m\ did n>.t know (lie fa-its of tlie ciso. When their petition was considered by tlio Committee on Petit'rt'np, ho li(inr>l lie should be ablu to give evidence there, and he hoped al 1^ he should be able to piove that the petitioners from Oatnaru did not know the real state of the cas" 1 . But as a general fact, so far as. he had learned any thing in connection with the Government of Otago, lie found that it was absolutely needful to give greater power 'to that province than, it had hitherto enjoyed. Take, for instance, the goldfields. How could they work them in the present state of affairs? He kuew that the lion, member for the Goldflelda Boroughs had a different view of the matter. He knew that that gentleman wauted to get the goldfields handed »ver to the General Government; but the goldfields would suffer from such a change. They had discovered the absolute necessity of having the power of administeriug on the goldfields given over to the province. He had referred the other day to the Regulations, which v»ere of such a nature that they were the very laughing-stock of the newspapers.. Some change win necessary, because, while the Wardens were paid by the province ai wardens, they were paid by the Government as magistrates ; the Wd Receivers the same way, and tfie bailiffs in a manned exactly similar. So that the arrangement was most unsatisfactory to the 'whole province. If they wanted to make any alteration in the Mining or if they wanted to appoint a warden, they were bound to write to the central Government at Wellington — a Government which absolutely knew nothing of the tate of affairs as regarded the goldfields. — f"-No, no," and "Hear, hew")— a Government which was bound from its position to accept the opinion of others and get the work done. Now, where was the necessity for this? Was it not better that the required power should be given to the province, th*t it might exercise it? Then, again, with regard to the receipt of money. Why, they dare not receive it. It must "first be paid to gold \eceiver«, aud then, by some circuitous route or other, it came to the province. The whole arrangement was a bad one. Next to the goldfields, there came the land regulations of each province. JJ^ey had to come to Wellington to their land regulations altered ; they could not inkke regulations for' themselves in their respective province!, even though every penny of land revenue was received t>y theai* and if they came to Wellington to get their laud regulations altered, it happened, perhaps, that a neighbouring province would come forward aud say — " Oh, your price is too low ; we will not tell our lands" — and consequently opposed the proposed regulations, because they thiuk they will not accord with their regulations. Was it not right, therefore, that the^ovince of Otago should have the making of its own laws, and its goldfields and mining., regulations, and also the power to legislate itajown affairs? Tuejimember for Parnell, to his astonishment and regrefe, bad run dowu the character of Provincial Governments. (Laughter.) He had run "down r the character of Superintendent*. (Renewed laughter.) And that seemed to him (Mr. Dick) to be "the unkindest cut of all," seeing that it went the length of injuring both that hou. member and himself. (Loud langhter.) He .dltf not think that a change of name would make any~difference ; but it was unfair that Mi*. Whstake# should have run down Provincial Councils aud Superintendents in the manner he had done. He would not compare members of the Provincial Councils with members of the General Assembly. Companions', of course, were odious. Of course they all knew th*t the Supreme Legislature of New Zealand far surpassed any Provincial Legislature. But it did happen that some — j indeed, very many — members of those Provincial 'Councils were members of that House, and it so happened, also, that some of these meinbeis had shown themselves to be good, able debaters. He once heard a gentleman nay, some time ago,- that neither a member of a Provincial Council nor *' Superintendent of a province should be a member of the General Assembly. What the General Assembly would be without them, he (Mr. Dick) did not know ; but he knew this much, that it would not be so well without them. To increase* the powers of Provincial Governments he considered to be a right and a wise course. , There was the further question of finance, which interested the Middle Island most seriously. It was argued by the hon. member for Parnell that they had serious difficulties before them, and it was argued by the hon. member at the head of the Government that these difficulties were pretty nearly settled. Which of the statements were they to adopt — that of Mr v WJiifeaker or that of the Premier ? , _He .should . .heartily belieTen-*the-~hon. duember at the liead of the Government, and 1 yet one feaied that what Mr. Whitaker s>aid might be true, and that they might yet have gerious difficulties to contend with as regarded the |atives ; aud if so, were they (the Middle Island) to be bound to pay what it might cost for carrying on war and taking possession of confiscated lands ? Was it not time that an end should be put to this ? He kuew that years ago, when the war began, the .Middle Island had a fair share in creating it. (Hear, hear, and cries of "No; no"). And the hon. member for the Hutt (Mr. Fitzherbert) on that occasion called the Middle Island "the bloodthirsty South." (Laughter.) At the same time, it was only fair, even if they had x share in commencing the war, that they should have a share in finishing it. Let them have done with it ; they had been paying heavily for a number of mistakes. The Middle .Island asked that such a man as General Chute should have taken up the c*u3e, and settled it, in- ' stead of in five years, in five months. (Hear,liear.) Now, if it had not been that the Middle Island money, land, and Customs revenue were liable to be taken to meet the expense of it, would this war have lasted so long as it had ? The hon. member for Parnell said that, if they gave the'^rovince of Auckland the power, the war would soon be put an end to. Let them understand at once what the liabilities of the Middle Island were to be. Let the question of finance be settled at once. They were prepared to pay a fair share for the mistake they made in advising that the war should be entered into. But let them have an cud to it somewhere, and let the Northern provinces, which are gaining the benefit — (ortts^of-f' No, no") — of the war bear the expense. It w&s all very well for hon. members to say, "No, no," to hii remark, but he would ask them were not the confiscated lands becoming their own ? It was admitted on all hands that the^najiives were dying out rapidly, and that numbers were killed by the war. What, he would ask, became of their lands ? Did- not the province get the benefit of these lands ? ("-No,- ntfT") What, in the name of wouder, had this war be'en going on for if there had beeu no benefit conferred on the Northern Island? (*«-Nor no.") He would assert, in spit« of the cry of " No, no," that the Northern Island did get the benefit, and the Middle Island paid the tax. It was time such should be put a stop to ; and if he had his choice, he would divide the two^slands altogether ; he would go in for diatiuct insular Separation. (Cheers.) But he knew they could not get that, and therefore he wanted as much power as possible given to the provinces ; and he was bound to confess that when railways were running through the islands, the electric telegraph established, and the power of tlfe Government felt everywhere— when all these things were un fait accompli, he was bound to confess he had in his heart an earnest hope that this provincial Reparation which he desired to see carried out would be the means of uniting, in one strong Government, the twojslands of this colony. Be it understood that he was not desirous that there should be a permanent -Separation of the /Islands. .But, at the present, time it was necessary that more power should be given to the provinces ; or, what was better still, that the two islands should be separated until they could each carry out their individual duties. The North could put an end to the war which the Middle Island had paid for ; *nd when the Middle (sland had made its railways and improvements, that, then, would be a fitting time to unite the twoislauds in a, strong central Government, and instead of provinces to Have counties and municipalities. (Bear.)
- Mr. Stafford : Sir, the lion, gentleman has read out some amendments, but I do not know •whether he has moved them, or whether they are yet before the j*6mmitfcee. With regard to the remark of the hon\ member that I came into office on the shoulders of the provincialists, I must say that I did not come into office ontheshbulderaof either the provincialists, centralists, or anybody. I took office witb very great reluctance. I was promised the support, in writing, of tome very great centralists — I think you too, sir (Eftferring to Mr. -Carleton). I told tbeie gentlemen who signed the requisition 'that I would give no pledge but one, and that was, that I should oppose Separation. (Cheers.) And I think I have kejrfthat pledge. (Hear, hear.)
Wsßx. Dick here brought up his amendment to the first of Mr. Whitaker's resolutions, which -was as follows: — "That in the opinion of this House temporary provision should be made for the better government of the colony of New Zealand."
The Chairman of Committbes (Mr. Carleton) theu read the* amendment ; and on the question being put, "That the words proposed to be struck oat stand part o£ tho question," he declared that the ayes " had it "> on the voicei.
A division was called for, which resulted »•* f.-llows : — Avm : 42. Noes : 24. Sraff rd (telW) Dick (iell«i) litzGeiald (fctllci) John Williamson (teller) Atkiusou Cargill Armstrong Burns Beauchatnp Ball Baldvviu De Qnincey Beawiok Clark Bell G . Graham Brandon It Gr?ham Borlaae Hull Bunny ' Hargreavea Bryca ' Macandrew Cox Hepburn Campbell Newman Eyes Moorhouse Curtis O'Korke Fitzherbert J. O'Neill Featherstpn JJeynold« Haughton Keid Bankinson Vogel Hall ' Whifcaker Jol lie Ward Haultain James Williamson McLean » Wbod. I udlam Morrison McNeil C. O'Neill Ollirer Parker ' ■ Ormoud , , , , 1 , JRichardson . - Paterson Wilson Wells ■ . , * Watt - -. " j Walker - : < A. J. Richmond , Taylor J. C. Richmond Stevens *■ Aud another. - . . , { The amendmtnt wai therefore lost, and the announcement of the result of the division was received with cheers from the opponents to Separation^
00*Wt.,Jamks O'NuiLti roe 1 ?, and said thaw it was hardly necessary tbafc another word should be said on the subject. Looking to the, foregone conclusion that the Bouse had arrived at/ they might as well at onoe go to a vote. An the h»B. member at the' head of the Government had said that he would oppose the resolutions with all his strength, and seeing that he could comm'aud a large majority, it would be belter for him to make use of that majority, and vote down the interests of Auckland. He believed that when the speech of 'the lion, member at the head of the Government was in print, it would not contrast very favourably^with the telling speech delivered by the hon;'< member for Parnell. $At± Whitaker), who told tW waots of Auckland. (Mr. 0 Neill) thought that any person who had felt the corrse of eveuts for the past few years, and had reflected a little upon them, would come to the coffclusion — whether disposed to do so or not — that a different and a better sort of government was wanted for the .jJrovince of' Auckland than thut which gow existed— (4*ear, heater— and that, if the settlers were to live at peace Nvith the coloured r ice, something must necessarily done to bring such a state of things about. It .was very easy forAnembers, who he hoped would soon be returned to peaceful homes in the South, and away from danger, to pat the people on the back and say td them, "Go in and fight ; we will pay part of your expense !" hut they had. never sent their welldrilled volunteers to save the youths — aye, even the very children — who were taken from their school? ,de*ks to fight for their homes and their country. The majority of the settlers of Auckland weifi compelled to live side by side with the natives, nnd they all knew that strong feelings of jealousy existed between them, and that such a feeling could never be allayed until some change was made in the existing form of -government. (Gear, hear.) " They had been called together by Sir George Grey to consider the wants of the colony, but he considered that" it was o»ly to exhibit contempt for the people in the North. .Of course, ' Auckland had only (15/ member^ to represent her interests in the House. At ' the same time, it must be borne in mind that these fifteen members represented fifty thousand people, and, above that number, thirty-five thousand of the^ative race, who had been declined any representation in the colony, although they contributed to the Customs revenue. He would say' tha\, with- all their boasted-oivilisati«n, ther« oh-_ ta»ued in -their midst that principle of taxing the people without allowing them any sort of representation at all. He had been long enough in the colony to kuow that the country was occupied by natives to the exclusion of the white man. But there was a remedy, if members from the South would only let their attention go to that remedy. What the people of Auckland asked was that they should be allowed an opportunity of bringing back their coasting trade, which had beeh destroyed. "Give us," said they, "an opportunity of holdiug it; give the natives an opportunity to buy harrows and ploughs,- in order that they might commence their enterprise as formerly." But it was no use to ask anything for Auckland ; it v^as useless to seek for her interests in that House ; but, of course, this being the first »ession of the new Parliament, hon. members might possibly act very differently if it were the last session.
Vogel thought that tlie House had acted •^frecipitately in committing the question to * vote at so early a date. The hon. member at the head of the GoTeram3nt had made a very excelleut speech, and there were several points iv it. Some of the moat telling ones as it seemed to him (Mr. Vogel) were mosb unsound. He would do Mr. Stafford the justice to say he had acknowledged on thi« occasion that he was, and would be, opposed to Separation. He would also Bay that the accession -of Mr. Stafford to office was some of the greatest blessings that could have happened to the country. Th« greater part of the objections taken to these resolutions by the member at the head of the . Government wai that these requirements applied only to Auckland. If he (Mr. Vogel) were asked to vote for these resolutions as they" stood, he would object to them, for he would be no opponent to giving Auckland I what ihould not be giren to the other provinces. But it appeared to him the hon. member for {Parnell had brought this before them to show the necessities of Auckland, and to endeavour to get a proposal which would be applicable to the whole of the colony. This Separation movement was not a mere frivolous matter, but one which was assuming a most important position; and which, having its base in the hearts of th« great maas of the people, must eventually terminate more or less successfully. (Criea ofJ"Hear,hear" and "N0.n0.") There was not a single member returned for Auckland who was not professedly a Separationist ; nor, were there a new electiou, would there be above three members returned for Otago who did not profess the same creed. He hoped that the Hon. the Postmaster-General would explain to the House how it was that his opinions on the question of Separation had been so changed since he had been gazetteH to office. A great many people delayed giving a vote, ai they could not see how they were to be guaranteed against giving future aid, supposing Auckland were granted separation. This could be done by taxing the Auckland community for the liabilities which they would undertake ; and seeing the taxing capabilities of the province, he had no doubt that they would guarantee to liquidate all the liabilities which they undertook. On the motion of Mr. J. G. Richmond, the debate was adjourned till next day ; and The House adjourned at ten o'clock.
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Daily Southern Cross, Volume XXII, Issue 2812, 31 July 1866, Page 5
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21,703HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Daily Southern Cross, Volume XXII, Issue 2812, 31 July 1866, Page 5
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